Author Topic: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read  (Read 1309 times)

kcballer

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Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« on: December 16, 2009, 11:43:50 AM »
http://blog.ted.com/2009/09/the_healthcare.php

In your talk at TED2008, you asked us all to "take the red pill" and step outside of our moral matrix. You said that moral psychology was the red pill, and that it could help people resolve many of the puzzles of politics. When emotions are running high in a debate such as we are seeing in the United States over healthcare, it's difficult to do this. What can moral psychology tell us about the healthcare debate?

I think there are three basic principles of moral psychology, and I find it helpful to approach any new puzzle by applying them.

The first principle is intuitive primacy: Peoples' judgments are based primarily on their intuitive reactions -- on quick gut feelings, not on reasoning. This is how we make most decisions, and Malcolm Gladwell reviewed this research in Blink. Our feelings guide our subsequent thinking, and in this case there is a vast sea of fear and anger out there caused by the financial crisis, the threat of unemployment, the rewarding of greed and arrogance on Wall Street, and the big changes the Obama administration is trying to implement on many fronts. People who didn't vote for Obama started off with negative or ambivalent feelings toward him. Independents who may have voted for him without much love are easily turned against him by talk of tax increases, whether true or not. His race may contribute some negativity, for some people. Whatever the source, negative feelings make it easy for people to believe just about any negative proposition given to them about Obama, including conspiracy theories about his birth certificate. Negative feelings make it easy to believe any negative claim about his health care plan, including the stuff about death panels.

The second principle of moral psychology is that moral thinking is for social doing: We engage in moral thinking not to find the truth, but to find arguments that support our intuitive judgments, so that we can defend ourselves if challenged. The crucial insight here comes from psychologist Tom Gilovich at Cornell, who says that when we want to believe a proposition, we ask, "Can I believe it?" -- and we look only for evidence that the proposition might be true. If we find a single piece of evidence then we're done. We stop. We have a reason we can trot out to support our belief. But if we don't want to believe a proposition, we ask, "Must I believe it?" -- and we look for an escape hatch, a single reason why maybe, just maybe, the proposition is false. So people who have a negative intuitive reaction to Obama, or who are fearful about the enormous changes going on, are already inclined to believe rumors against him and his plans. They hear about death panels and forged birth certificates and ask "can I believe it?" The answer is usually yes, particularly if Fox News raises these questions and brings on experts who claim that the propositions are true. Even if Fox News presents both sides, the fact that somebody on TV endorsed a proposition gives viewers permission to believe it, if they want to. Conversely, Democrats can give rebuttals till they're blue in the face, but if people are asking themselves "must I believe it" about the Democrats' claims then the answer they will usually reach is "no." Logic and consistency just aren't very important when it comes to morality. Reasoning is "the servant of the passions," as the philosopher David Hume said long ago.

That brings us to the third principle, which is that morality binds and builds. I said in my TEDTalk that morality and politics are team sports. People aren't just engaging in post-hoc rationalization to justify their individual feelings. Rather, moral reasoning and rationalizing are done in large part to help your team, and to show that you are a good member of your team. Moral teams tend to form around principles held to be sacred. One sacred principle for conservatives since the 1980s, and for libertarians in all eras, is that government is evil, it is a form oppression. Individual liberty, tied to individual responsibility, are good, so nanny states such as those of Europe, which seem so humane to liberals, are reviled as socialist nightmares that are then mistakenly blended with totalitarian nightmares. Hence the Obama equals Hitler comparisons. Of course, people are quite selective about the aspects of government they find oppressive, and many commentators have pointed out the irony of protesters who say, in one case literally, "keep your government hands off of my medicare." But once again, logic plays little role in our moral lives. Moral claims and arguments function like gang signs -- they show others what team you are on, and they let you share emotions with other people, which bonds you more closely together.

At the end of your talk, you say, "The great conservative insight is that order is really hard to achieve. It's really precious, and really easy to lose." How does this notion that order tends to decay -- suffused by the conservative mentality, which highly values in-groups, authority and purity -- shape conservative thinking about President Obama's healthcare reform proposals? What are liberals missing about the perspective of the political right?

I did say that in-group, authority and purity are necessary for the maintenance of order, but I would never give them a blanket endorsement. Rather, my message to secular liberals is, Don't dismiss these entirely. Be wary of them, sure; they can motivate violations of civil liberties and human rights. But we need them at times, and to a limited degree. Above all recognize that matters related to ingroup (such as immigration, or the flag), authority (such as crime and punishment), and purity (such as sexuality) are the ones that take on a kind of religious importance for most Americans, because they are about binding groups together around sacred values. Liberals often trigger outrage by ignoring these concerns in their pursuit of social justice, or of efficient policy.

In terms of the "five foundations" that I presented in my TEDTalk, I think that a big area of misunderstanding in the current debate concerns the role of purity/sanctity in biomedical issues, particularly abortion, euthanasia, and stem cell research. If your morality is based on the moral foundations of harm/care and fairness/reciprocity (as liberal morality is, in my data), then you're likely to take a very practical or utilitarian approach, one that aims to minimize suffering while maximizing the rights of the individuals involved. You take a "materialist" view of life, which doesn't mean materialistic as in greedy, it means you think the only thing that exists is matter – no souls – so you think life is a physical or mechanical process that can be tinkered with to optimize the welfare of human beings. Hence abortion, voluntary euthanasia, and stem cell research are all justified.

But materialism is deeply and profoundly threatening to many people. It's the reason that the philosopher Peter Singer is so widely attacked, despite his humanitarian intentions. The current Pope and the last one both railed against this form of materialism. The materialism of the secular left opens it up to charges that it promotes a "culture of death." Liberals are said to like to kill fetuses and the elderly; they don't treat anything as sacred. This term has been bandied about on the right for many years, and while it is a gross exaggeration, it is based in a real truth, a real difference on the question of the sacredness of life. So when Palin threw out the term "death panels," the term struck a chord that had been played many times in recent years. Liberals were flabbergasted, because it's a blatant lie, but it's false only in a logical sense, not an emotional one. And once again, logic has little to do with morality. If a pro-life social conservative asks himself whether Obama is secretly plotting to create death panels, he is not asking whether this is likely to be true, he is asking only "can I believe it," and the answer is usually yes.

Of course, liberals believe that it is conservatives who like to kill people (think militarism and capital punishment). Both sides care about life, but in different ways. Both sides live inside their own moral matrices. And just like in the movie The Matrix, morality is a "consensual hallucination" that is very hard to step out of. But moral psychology can help people to understand that there are moral motivations on all sides. People may not be logical, but few of them are crazy.

How would you advise a proponent of Obama's healthcare reform bill to go about persuading its opposition -- or at least to turn the debate toward the actual validity of its proposals, rather than the sensationalist claims?

While it is useful to rebut charges and get your arguments out in circulation, you have to understand that arguments and evidence have little impact on people as long as their feelings tilt them against you. You've got to create trust and liking first, and then people will be willing to listen. People can believe pretty much whatever they want to believe about moral and political issues, as long as some other people near them believe it, so you have to focus on indirect methods to change what people want to believe. You have to get them to the point where they ask themselves "can I believe it?" about your claims, rather than about your opponents' claims. The time to establish that trust and liking was months ago, and perhaps some of it was burned up in the giant bailouts and coziness with Wall Street. I'm not a political scientist; I can't say why his poll numbers went down. But as a moral psychologist I can say that there's now little that can be done to win over or calm down the town-hall protesters. They've formed a new gang, a new heroic moral identity of resistance.

My main suggestion is to boil the plan down to a few easy-to-understand ideas, each of which has some intuitive moral content. The compassion and caring-for-all ideas should be easy for Obama, but they are not going to win over non-liberals, particularly those like Congressman Joe Wilson who are offended by the prospect of caring for outsiders (i.e., immigrants). But Obama might have to reach beyond his moral comfort zone to bring in some conservative ideas of fairness, such as that laziness or personal irresponsibility must not be rewarded. Obama might want to consider discussing the role of lawyers, and the role of lawsuits in driving up the costs of medical care. Even if economists say that this is not a major economic factor, it is a major moral issue for many people: whiny, irresponsible patients team up with crooked lawyers to milk the system for multi-million dollar settlements. It's outrageous, and Obama's opponents specialize in mobilizing outrage. Opposition parties always do, and neither side has a deep respect for the truth, although I do think that the kind of populist moral outrage now being cultivated by Glenn Beck and other conservative media personalities shows the three principles of moral psychology in an unusually florid fashion: intuitive primacy, moral thinking is for social doing, and morality binds and builds. It's very hard to combat such attacks with reasons and evidence. I hope the Obama team finds some more indirect ways to change feelings – perhaps by making progress on the economy, or by handling an international crisis well. When it comes to moral persuasion, the way to the head is through the heart.


I have put in bold some sections i have found interesting.  What are the thoughts around here on this??
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 11:50:51 AM »
Sorry - KC - my oppsoition to the health care disaster is not based on race, its based on fact.

Even Howard Dean said its a disaster.  Its horrible on all levels and I hope to god he fails miserably in everything he does.       

kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 11:52:59 AM »
Sorry - KC - my oppsoition to the health care disaster is not based on race, its based on fact.

Even Howard Dean said its a disaster.  Its horrible on all levels and I hope to god he fails miserably in everything he does.       

333 you fell right into the very first principal.  I mean really you did not read this at all and if you did you read it with such negativity as to not get ANYTHING constructive out of it.  Sad really.
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kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 11:54:18 AM »
It is no wonder you have such hate for ivy league schools or higher learning institutions.  You are so filled with negativity that you can not read anything that does not agree with you 100% regardless of the lessons you could potentially learn from it. 
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 11:56:51 AM »
Obama might want to consider discussing the role of lawyers, and the role of lawsuits in driving up the costs of medical care. Even if economists say that this is not a major economic factor, it is a major moral issue for many people: whiny, irresponsible patients team up with crooked lawyers to milk the system for multi-million dollar settlements. It's outrageous, and Obama's opponents specialize in mobilizing outrage. Opposition parties always do, and neither side has a deep respect for the truth,

________________________ ________________________ _____________

Obama cant do that because he is one of those slimy shysters, just like John Edwards.

I think trial lawyers gave to Obama something like 4 to 1 or something.  Do you think he is going to go against a huge $ $ base?   

BodyProSite

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 12:00:42 PM »
yep Obama falls right into catagory 1 quick response to people flashing money at him ans he reacts without much thought or reason. If I am wrong in my statement then America would not have an u.e of over ten% and climbing and small businesses wouldnt be shutting down faster than you can blink an eye, and there is no end of this in sight, just cause a person has an ivy league education does not mean they themself cant fall into your proposed catagories

kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 12:13:22 PM »
haha i shouldn't be surprised but i figured we would have an actual debate on the content, not prove the content to be correct via baseless accusations and/or lies.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 12:14:55 PM »
haha i shouldn't be surprised but i figured we would have an actual debate on the content, not prove the content to be correct via baseless accusations and/or lies.

What are you talking about?  The aurthor said that obama should go after the trial lawyers.  I showed you why he wont.  That's not content related? 

kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2009, 12:19:03 PM »
What are you talking about?  The aurthor said that obama should go after the trial lawyers.  I showed you why he wont.  That's not content related? 

You have missed the point completely.  As always.  It is not about what Obama could/should do it is about the ideas behind both sides of the debate and understanding how/why they react the way they do.  You really have no capacity for thought outside of the box do you? It's all cut and dry.  As soon as you saw Obama and healthcare well you figured no good can come of this and basically skipped the whole meaning of the article.  Basically proving right the first point he makes within 5 seconds of it being posted.
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 12:32:03 PM »
You have missed the point completely.  As always.  It is not about what Obama could/should do it is about the ideas behind both sides of the debate and understanding how/why they react the way they do.  You really have no capacity for thought outside of the box do you? It's all cut and dry.  As soon as you saw Obama and healthcare well you figured no good can come of this and basically skipped the whole meaning of the article.  Basically proving right the first point he makes within 5 seconds of it being posted.

KC - i read the article entirely.

However, its too late for the things that this author is suggesting. 

KC - check this out. 

 http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/12/16/dean_health_bill_bigger_bailout_for_the_insurance_industry_than_aig.html


kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2009, 12:43:36 PM »
KC - i read the article entirely.

However, its too late for the things that this author is suggesting. 

KC - check this out. 

 http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/12/16/dean_health_bill_bigger_bailout_for_the_insurance_industry_than_aig.html



Once again you are missing the point.  It is not about the healthcare bill as such.  That is just an example. 
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2009, 12:50:17 PM »
Once again you are missing the point.  It is not about the healthcare bill as such.  That is just an example. 

KC - I get what he is talking about.  i really do.  But its too late for that.  appealing to morality at this point is not going to work.  The right, including me, is disgusted with him on almost every level. 

He has a choice, throw the base under the bus to appease the right, or go left and piss off the middle and right.

Either way at this point he is in for a huge fight. 


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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2009, 01:03:06 PM »
Once again you are missing the point.  It is not about the healthcare bill as such.  That is just an example. 

KC... Why do you even bother? Do you really think 333386 is someone with whom you could have this discussion, ...or perhaps do you think he may better serve as a textbook example of the subject matter in question?

I learned long ago... never argue with idiots. They'll just drag you down to their level,
...then beat you with their experience. 333386 doesn't get it, ...and I doubt he ever will.  :-\
w

Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2009, 01:20:15 PM »
KC... Why do you even bother? Do you really think 333386 is someone with whom you could have this discussion, ...or perhaps do you think he may better serve as a textbook example of the subject matter in question?

I learned long ago... never argue with idiots. They'll just drag you down to their level,
...then beat you with their experience. 333386 doesn't get it, ...and I doubt he ever will.  :-\

 ::)  ::)

since I am to odumb to get it, why dont you inform me of what I missed in this article? 

kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2009, 01:57:23 PM »
::)  ::)

since I am to odumb to get it, why dont you inform me of what I missed in this article? 

The whole friggin' point of it.  Its not about healthcare per say its about the Moral roots of individuals skewing their reasoning.  You have proven it time and again with your posts.  Health care is just the vehicle he uses as an example.  It could be anything that left and right disagree on. 

I agree Jag it's like talking to a wall of bricks.  There is no logic or reason that could ever penetrate his skull that wasn't anti obama first and foremost.  Like i have said regardless of the lesson he could learn he is too blinded by his prejudice for this article simple because it mentions healthcare, something he is so opposed to as to 'cut of his nose to spite his face' so to speak.
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BodyProSite

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2009, 02:05:43 PM »
well kc, on the flip side of that  you are on the opposite end of the arguement from 33 saying things that you find relevant to proving what you think or believe. so who is to say this that you accuse 33 of cant be just as equily applied to you?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2009, 02:06:05 PM »
The whole friggin' point of it.  Its not about healthcare per say its about the Moral roots of individuals skewing their reasoning.  You have proven it time and again with your posts.  Health care is just the vehicle he uses as an example.  It could be anything that left and right disagree on. 

I agree Jag it's like talking to a wall of bricks.  There is no logic or reason that could ever penetrate his skull that wasn't anti obama first and foremost.  Like i have said regardless of the lesson he could learn he is too blinded by his prejudice for this article simple because it mentions healthcare, something he is so opposed to as to 'cut of his nose to spite his face' so to speak.

No you idiot, i approach a issue from a different vantage point than you do.  

Its very simple for me -

1.  Does it increase or decrease my choices?
2.  Does it involve more govt or less?
3.  Does it increase freedom or decrease freedom?
4.  It is constitutional or not?


So far, almost every single thing that the POFS marxist scumbag in the WH has put forth is the opposite of everything I believe in.  Its not just health care, its everything, other than killing the pirates.  

Crap & Tax, amnesty for illegals, terrrorists in NYC, etc.  

The things you are in favor of I am 100% against.  Its that simply KC.  You dont need a psychologist to examine this situation since its clear as day.  

If obama keeps up his marxism/fascism/commusim/obamunism or whatever it, I will be against it.  

If he and the left want to leave me alone, I am in favor of it.  

What more do you need to know?  

kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2009, 02:07:31 PM »
well kc, on the flip side of that  you are on the opposite end of the arguement from 33 saying things that you find relevant to proving what you think or believe. so who is to say this that you accuse 33 of cant be just as equily applied to you?

EXACTLY! This is the whole point of posting it. To get discussion like this.  We are ALL subject to these bias' but maybe by reading and discussing them we can all perhaps segregate emotion and morals from fact and reason.

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Soul Crusher

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 02:09:53 PM »
EXACTLY! This is the whole point of posting it. To get discussion like this.  We are ALL subject to these bias' but maybe by reading and discussing them we can all perhaps segregate emotion and morals from fact and reason.



Its hard not to be emotional when people like yourself feel that you have a moral authority to steal more of my paycheck to fund your green fantasies.   

BodyProSite

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2009, 02:11:54 PM »
i get that that is the whole point but if that is truely the reason you posted it then why are you and jag so quick to jump on 333  and critisize him to each other when you do it , jag does it and at some point everyone gets a lil hyped up and posts some things if you are going to be the one to post this type of artcle you of all should practice what you preach

BodyProSite

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2009, 02:13:45 PM »
i think alot of libs dont think that it is costing the tax payer  they think its free from a magic pot

kcballer

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2009, 02:15:54 PM »
i get that that is the whole point but if that is truely the reason you posted it then why are you and jag so quick to jump on 333  and critisize him to each other when you do it , jag does it and at some point everyone gets a lil hyped up and posts some things if you are going to be the one to post this type of artcle you of all should practice what you preach

Well it's pretty hard not to when someone misses the whole point of something repeatedly and just harps on and on about the same thing.  

I didn't post this article believing that i am somehow superior or that i am perfect as you are trying to insinuate.  I posted it so that people could perhaps see (myself included) that we sometimes need to step back from our 'moral matrix's' but this point was lost on 333 right from the start.  
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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2009, 02:16:03 PM »
i think alot of libs dont think that it is costing the tax payer  they think its free from a magic pot

Because most libs dont pay taxes.  They could care less.  

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2009, 02:35:59 PM »
reading 333386 post is like watching fox news,he takes shit and twist it to meet his truth

Sorry - KC - my oppsoition to the health care disaster is not based on race, its based on fact.

Even Howard Dean said its a disaster.  Its horrible on all levels and I hope to god he fails miserably in everything he does.       

what dean said it a disaster without the public option

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Re: Moral roots skew our reasoning - Healthcare related must read
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2009, 02:42:56 PM »
reading 333386 post is like watching fox news,he takes shit and twist it to meet his truth

Sorry - KC - my oppsoition to the health care disaster is not based on race, its based on fact.

Even Howard Dean said its a disaster.  Its horrible on all levels and I hope to god he fails miserably in everything he does.       

what dean said it a disaster without the public option

I dont watch television.  You watch Fox more than I do. 

I look at issues based on the facts presented.  So far, you have not been able to defend any of the policy positions you advocate. 

KC gives decent arguments, even though I disagree with him on stuff.  You just post television clips.