Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!

[MCWAY]

Re-post:

McWAy - question for you.

You keep implying that becaue Article 11 was removed from a later version of the treaty (which I can't find online nor can I find anything about what was revised and why) that it proves or at least lends credence that the statements in that section are no longer true.   Do I understand you correctly?

No, you do not!!!

First, I don't know why you keep claiming that you can't find it. Perhaps, I should clarify further:

Technically, there is an Article 11 in the Treaty of Tripoli from 1805 and onward. But, the phrase, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.. is GONE.

Instead, it reads:

The Commerce between the United States of America and the Regency of Tripoli; The Protections to be given to Merchants, Masters of Vessels and Seamen; The reciprocal right of establishing Consuls in each Country; and the priviledges, immunities and jurisdictions to be enjoyed by such Consuls, are declared to be on the same footing, with those of the most favoured Nations respectively.


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/bar1805t.asp

[Straw Man]

No, you do not!!!

First, I don't know why you keep claiming that you can't find it. Perhaps, I should clarify further:

Technically, there is an Article 11 in the Treaty of Tripoli from 1805 and onward. But, the phrase, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.. is GONE.

Instead, it reads:

The Commerce between the United States of America and the Regency of Tripoli; The Protections to be given to Merchants, Masters of Vessels and Seamen; The reciprocal right of establishing Consuls in each Country; and the priviledges, immunities and jurisdictions to be enjoyed by such Consuls, are declared to be on the same footing, with those of the most favoured Nations respectively.


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/bar1805t.asp

so you 're saying this PROVES the statemets in the former Article 11 are no longer true and in fact the absense of the statement proves it was either not true or no longer true?

[MCWAY]

ok - so you're saying individual quotes by men supercede and contradict the only documents that they actually produced as a group?

Nope!!! Try again.

What I've said is:

1) The quotes I've used are not exhaustive (meaning that those are hardly the only ones in which the Founders reflect such views).

2) They don't contradict the Constitution.

Of course, a Supreme Court ruling, citing America as a Christian nation just two years after the Treaty doesn't help matters for those citing the treaty to deny America's being such.

[MCWAY]

so you 're saying this PROVES the statemets in the former Article 11 are no longer true and in fact the absense of the statement proves it was either not true or no longer true?

Please read what I actually posted and you won't have to ask me what I'm saying.

IF you claim that the Treaty of Tripoli is proof that America isn't a Christian nation, you must come to the conclusion that you just mentioned, with that particular portion of Article 11 removed as of 1805.

[Straw Man]

Nope!!! Try again.

What I've said is:

1) The quotes I've used are not exhaustive (meaning that those are hardly the only ones in which the Founders reflect such views).

2) They don't contradict the Constitution.

so quotes from individuals don't supercede the constitution and you think the constitution supports this statement by you?

I make the argument that the Founding Fathers declared America a Christian nation.

can you show me what part of the constitution supports that statement

[Straw Man]

Please read what I actually posted and you won't have to ask me what I'm saying.

IF you claim that the Treaty of Tripoli is proof that America isn't a Christian nation, you must come to the conclusion that you just mentioned, with that particular portion of Article 11 removed as of 1805.

I said before that one doesn't even need the treaty because all they have to do is read the Constitution.

I do believe that Article 11 is clear proof that this country was not in any way whatsover founded on Christian principals.

the absense of that statement in a future version of the treaty does not make that statement untrue and does not in any way prove the contrary is true

[MCWAY]

so quotes from individuals don't supercede the constitution and you think the constitution supports this statement by you?

can you show me what part of the constitution supports that statement

These aren't just individuals. Many of them are the men who actually wrote and signed the Constitution. If they say America's a Christian nation, why would you think that their statements are false?

can you show me what part of the constitution supports that statement

I can show what the Constitution's writers said about this country.

[MCWAY]

I said before that one doesn't even need the treaty because all they have to do is read the Constitution.

I do believe that Article 11 is clear proof that this country was not in any way whatsover founded on Christian principals.

I disagree with that, especially with the Founding Fathers stating the opposite, i.e.:

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." - Samuel Chase


Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." -  John Adams

I had the honor of being one who framed that Constitution. In order effectually to accomplish these great ends set forth in the Constitution, it is especially the duty of those who bear rule to promote and encourage respect for God and virtue and to discourage every degree of vice and immorality" - Henry Laurens

The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." - John Quincy Adams

the absense of that statement in a future version of the treaty does not make that statement untrue and does not in any way prove the contrary is true

The Founding Fathers said this was a Christian nation BEFORE the Treaty of Tripoli ever existed; they continued to state such and rule as such DURING the treaty; and they YET CONTINUED to do that long after that portion of Article 11 was stricken from the treaty.

[Straw Man]

These aren't just individuals. Many of them are the men who actually wrote and signed the Constitution. If they say America's a Christian nation, why would you think that their statements are false?  I can show what the Constitution's writers said about this country.

Show me where the Constitution supports your statement.  You said it doesn't contradict it so that means it must support it.

Show it to me

I haven't even bothered to show you all the quotes from the Founding Father who completey contradict your point of view but I'll give you a couple now.  Let's start with James Madison (one of the 7 key founders, chronicler of the Constitutional Convention and Father of the Constitution, Fourth President of the United States).  Surely you value his opinion and he obviosly

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

[MCWAY]

Show me where the Constitution supports your statement.  You said it doesn't contradict it so that means it must support it.

Show it to me

The Constitution doesn't state that the Founding Fathers declared this a Christian nation. That doesn't erase the fact that it's what they said.

I haven't even bothered to show you all the quotes from the Founding Father who completey contradict your point of view but I'll give you a couple now.  Let's start with James Madison (one of the 7 key founders, chronicler of the Constitutional Convention and Father of the Constitution, Fourth President of the United States).  Surely you value his opinion and he obviosly

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

One, Madison's references to ecclesiatical establishments are references to institutions like the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Church, which he appears to be criticizing for not going their job, regarding the faith.

Two, this same James Madison also noted that,

Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land."

 
Add to that the words of John Adams,


"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity"

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." 

And Alexandar Hamilton, who after that same Constitutional Convention you mentioned, said,

For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.

[Straw Man]

That doesn't erase the fact that it's what they said.

when did I dispute the individuals made those statements?

I disputed that they were accurate

have you actually been confused about that this entire time?

Let's review:

I make the argument that the Founding Fathers declared America a Christian nation.

2) They don't contradict the Constitution.

The Constitution doesn't state that the Founding Fathers declared this a Christian nation.

[MCWAY]

when did I dispute the individuals made those statements?

I disputed that they were accurate

have you actually been confused about that this entire time?

Hardly!!!

Let's review:

Show me where the Constitution supports your statement.  You said it doesn't contradict it so that means it must support it.

My statement was that the Founding Fathers declared America a Christian nation. The Constitution says nothing to the contrary.

[Straw Man]

Hardly!!!

Let's review:

My statement was that the Founding Fathers declared America a Christian nation. The Constitution says nothing to the contrary.

do you think that is proof that the statement is true?

[MCWAY]

do you think that is proof that the statement is true?

The Constitution appears to quite neutral in the matter.

That is why I've relied on what the men who wrote and signed the Constitution had to say, regarding this country being a Christian nation.

[Straw Man]

The Constitution appears to quite neutral in the matter.

That is why I've relied on what the men who wrote and signed the Constitution had to say, regarding this country being a Christian nation.

Other men who wrote the Constitution made statements about the horrors of combining religion and government so by the same standard I assume you take those to be true also

you haven't answered the question.

you say the statement is not explicity contradicted by the Constitution and you're presenting that as proof that the statements are true

Yes or No

[Mons Venus]

McWay, Straw is making u look like a fool. Stop while u still have some dignity.

[Soul Crusher]

McWay, Straw is making u look like a fool. Stop while u still have some dignity.

This thread =

[MCWAY]

Other men who wrote the Constitution made statements about the horrors of combining religion and government so by the same standard I assume you take those to be true also

And those statements do NOT clash with the ones I've posted. The key, once again, is that the church is the conscience of the state.

Hence the reason, you have statements like this:

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."

you haven't answered the question.

you say the statement is not explicity contradicted by the Constitution and you're presenting that as proof that the statements are true

Yes or No

One more time, MY statement is that the Founding Fathers declared that America is a Christian nation. The Constitution DOES NOT CONTRADICT that statement.

Do the Founding Fathers declare America a Christian nation? YES!!!

Does the Constitution say anything to the contrary? NO!

Does the Constitution claim the Founding Fathers said anything to the contrary? NO!!

[Straw Man]

And those statements do NOT clash with the ones I've posted. The key, once again, is that the church is the conscience of the state.

Hence the reason, you have statements like this:

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."

One more time, MY statement is that the Founding Fathers declared that America is a Christian nation. The Constitution DOES NOT CONTRADICT that statement.

Do the Founding Fathers declare America a Christian nation? YES!!!

Does the Constitution say anything to the contrary? NO!

Does the Constitution claim the Founding Fathers said anything to the contrary? NO!!

one more time

do you think the lack an an explicit statement to the contrary in the constitution mean that the statement is true

yes or no?

[MCWAY]

one more time

do you think the lack an an explicit statement to the contrary in the constitution mean that the statement is true

yes or no?

I've answered that, at least twice.

The answer is YES. The statement is true, because that's what the Founding Fathers (THE MEN WHO WROTE THAT CONSTITUTION) said about this nation.

Why is that such a problem for you to grasp?

[Straw Man]

I've answered that, at least twice.

The answer is YES. The statement is true, because that's what the Founding Fathers (THE MEN WHO WROTE THAT CONSTITUTION) said about this nation.

Why is that such a problem for you to grasp?

you're not answering the question that I asked.

let's try something easier.

Did you make the following statement - YES or NO (this should be an easy one for you)?

The Constitution doesn't state that the Founding Fathers declared this a Christian nation.

[MCWAY]

you're not answering the question that I asked.

let's try something easier.

Did you make the following statement - YES or NO (this should be an easy one for you)?

You may be suffering from the same myopic ailments as Lurker.

YES, I made the statement; I explained what I mean by that statement.

I will re-state my position, yet again, since you can't quite get it.

The Founding Fathers (the men who wrote and signed the Constitution) declared that America is a Christian nation.

The Constitution that they wrote and signed does NOT explicitly or implicitly contradict those declarations.

[Straw Man]

You may be suffering from the same myopic ailments as Lurker.

YES, I made the statement; I explained what I mean by that statement.

I will re-state my position, yet again, since you can't quite get it.

The Founding Fathers (the men who wrote and signed the Constitution) declared that America is a Christian nation.

The Constitution that they wrote and signed does NOT explicitly or implicitly contradict those declarations.

and because you see no explicit or implicit contradiction of the statement "America is a Christian Nation" you think that makes it true

YES  or NO

[MCWAY]

and because you see no explicit or implicit contradiction of the statement "America is a Christian Nation" you think that makes it true

YES  or NO

For the nth time, the answer is YES. There is no contradiction in the Constitution, AND the men who wrote and signed it, stated that America is a Christian nation.

Among them,

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”  - John Jay

[Straw Man]

For the nth time, the answer is YES. There is no contradiction in the Constitution, AND the men who wrote and signed it, stated that America is a Christian nation.

ok, bear with me here for a moment

I just want to confirm that you're saying lack of a statement in the Constitution to the contrary proves that the statement "America is a Christian nation" is true