You can't make this shit up.....

[headhuntersix]

It's the curse of pseudo-intellectualism.

Man I love me some "D"...no homo. Good post.

[24KT]

BOOM!  Doc, when I was active and Clinton started the bullshit policy, so the debate was raging, the argument from idiots like haguar when someone mentioned showering for example, was "gay men are not attracted to all other men...."  to which my response was, "I'm not attracted to all women, so let me shower with them instead..."  These dipshits have no understanding of open-bay showers, open-bay berthing, etc... yet they all want to weigh in on what is "right or wrong."   But how many who have actually lived these conditions support it?  Very, very few in relation to the numbers who have served.

If I have no understanding of open-bay showers, or open-bay berthing, ...rather than calling me a dip-ship,
...PLEASE EXPLAIN IT TO ME!!! Afterall, ...it's only what I have been asking in the last umpteen posts in this thread.

I don't get it because I don't have a problem with getting dressed & undressed and/or showering with lesbians.

there was a TV show that shot up here in Canada called "Queer As Folk". EVERY SINGLE crew member on that show was gay, from the ADs, to the grips, to the PAs, wardrobe personell etc. they finally switched casting directors in later seasons and hired a gay CD. The only people who worked on that show that weren't gay... were the actors. One day I was on set and we were shooting a gym workout scene, and there was an issue with my wardrobe. Rather than go all the way back to honeytown to change, (which was a good 15 mins away) I opted to instead change right there on the set. I didn't want to be taking off my bottoms and standing around in my g-string in front of a bunch of guys... even though they would have probably been the least interested in the view. The section of the set that I was currently changing in was temporarily OFF-LIMITS to all male personnel. I was surrounded by lesbians holding up towels, who could infact see me in my thong, but I didn't care. If one of them found the view attractive, they were professional enought to not leer, harrass me, or indicate their appreciation of the view.

When I was a kid in school, I shared a tent on a weekend camping trip with a lesbian. It was no big deal to me.
That's just me though. I don't understand a man's objection to the same thing, ...so please explain it to me from a male perspective.

[drkaje]

You're still not answering my question jake, just giving me smart ass remarks.
Don't straight men & gay men currently shower together in the military?
So what is the difference if one knows the person is gay or not?

You didn't ask a sincere question. Instead you pretended to be all smart with the "What difference does it make?! attitude people cop when they can't come up with a logical reason for a change. Of course they do, LOL! Not the point at all.

I'd rather believe you were joking than so dense as to not understand the extent to which knowing someone's sexuality changes things. Not trying to sound gay but military life is fairly intimate. 

It would be the same as imposing unisex showers on military personnel.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've never done military service*. Reading a few blogs or cutting and pasting some crap cannot possibly help you grasp how complex interpersonal relationships are between servicemen. My point is, nothing you read, seen, done, heard about, or cut and pasted can lend enough perspective to legitimately argue "So what is the difference if one knows the person is gay or not?" and be taken seriously.

You have a dirty mind, Judi.

[24KT]

You didn't ask a sincere question. Instead you pretended to be all smart with the "What difference does it make?! attitude people cop when they can't come up with a logical reason for a change. Of course they do, LOL! Not the point at all.

I'd rather believe you were joking than so dense as to not understand the extent to which knowing someone's sexuality changes things. Not trying to sound gay but military life is fairly intimate.  

It would be the same as imposing unisex showers on military personnel.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've never done military service*. Reading a few blogs or cutting and pasting some crap cannot possibly help you grasp how complex interpersonal relationships are between servicemen. My point is, nothing you read, seen, done, heard about, or cut and pasted can lend enough perspective to legitimately argue "So what is the difference if one knows the person is gay or not?" and be taken seriously.

You have a dirty mind, Judi.

Why do you persistently avoid my question? This is something I don't understand, I'm clearly asking you to explain it to me, ...and all I get it more smart ass remarks.

I am not ARGUING 'what is the difference', ...I am ASKING 'what is the difference?'

Your refusal to answer the question leads me to believe you don't have an answer for me.

Yes, I do have a dirty mind, ...but that's between me and my lover.  

[The Showstoppa]

Open bay showers means you shower in a room with 10 or 12 shower heads where there is no seperation, so you essentially are 2 ft away from the other person showering.  Open bay bunks are a line of 30 or so bunks in a row and you change clothes 1 or 2 ft apart.  Hell, some bathrooms/heads shitters don't even have doors on them.....privacy in the military is ZERO. 

You are often forced to room, or bunk, with someone that most likely isn't of your choice.  Like I said, I don't like ALL females, but I would much prefer to shower with them instead of guys. 

To make the assumption that because you are comfortable with changing/showering with lesbians DOES NOT mean it should be forced upon the other 90% of people who are not, just to make a few people feel that everything is "fair." 

[drkaje]

Why do you persistently avoid my question? This is something I don't understand, I'm clearly asking you to explain it to me, ...and all I get it more smart ass remarks.

I am not ARGUING 'what is the difference', ...I am ASKING 'what is the difference?'

Your refusal to answer the question leads me to believe you don't have an answer for me.

Yes, I do have a dirty mind, ...but that's between me and my lover.  

Post a pic of her.

[24KT]

Open bay showers means you shower in a room with 10 or 12 shower heads where there is no seperation, so you essentially are 2 ft away from the other person showering.

This part I understand. I remember when I was in the 7th  grade. A bunch of us girls snuck a few guys into the girl's change room afterschool. The guys were blown away by the fact that we had individual private stalls & shower curtains. They were so mesmerized by the relative luxury of the girls change room, ...we became curious to see what the guys had. so, ...they snuck us into the boys change room. It was one big communal shower. yuck!

 Open bay bunks are a line of 30 or so bunks in a row and you change clothes 1 or 2 ft apart.  Hell, some bathrooms/heads shitters don't even have doors on them.....privacy in the military is ZERO.  

You are often forced to room, or bunk, with someone that most likely isn't of your choice.  Like I said, I don't like ALL females, but I would much prefer to shower with them instead of guys.  

To make the assumption that because you are comfortable with changing/showering with lesbians DOES NOT mean it should be forced upon the other 90% of people who are not, just to make a few people feel that everything is "fair."  

I understand the concept of open bay showers and open berths, what I don't understand is the difference it makes whether you know the guy is gay or not. Whether or not you know, doesn't change the fact that he's still gay, and he's there. It sounds to me like the big objection towards openly gay men, is the discomfort level it would bring to those who would not otherwise feel uncomfortable if they did not know? is that the thrust of it? {no pun intentended} I don't see how keeping gays out of the military is going to change the living standards. If barring gays meant you'd get shower curtains, then I can understand it, ...but it sounds to me more like an attempt to appease the homophobic. There was also a time when people thought it was highly improper for Black people to sleep in the same room as whites, eat at the same table, attend the same school, use the same entrance, or even swim in the same pool. I can't help but to see it as a civil rights thing, ...and a desire to maintain a taboo, for fear of what could occur were many men to develop a better comfort level with gays. They'd be screweing each other, letting their latent tendencies come out, rather than saving the testosterone to fuel their hostility on the front lines.

[24KT]

Post a pic of her.

LOL!

[drkaje]

This part I understand. I remember when I was in the 7th  grade. A bunch of us girls snuck a few guys into the girl's change room afterschool. The guys were blown away by the fact that we had individual private stalls & shower curtains. They were so mesmerized by the relative luxury of the girls change room, ...we became curious to see what the guys had. so, ...they snuck us into the boys change room. It was one big communal shower. yuck!

I understand the concept of open bay showers and open berths, what I don't understand is the difference it makes whether you know the guy is gay or not. Whether or not you know, doesn't change the fact that he's still gay, and he's there. It sounds to me like the big objection towards openly gay men, is the discomfort level it would bring to those who would not otherwise feel uncomfortable if they did not know? is that the thrust of it? {no pun intentended} I don't see how keeping gays out of the military is going to change the living standards. If barring gays meant you'd get shower curtains, then I can understand it, ...but it sounds to me more like an attempt to appease the homophobic. There was also a time when people thought it was highly improper for Black people to sleep in the same room as whites, eat at the same table, attend the same school, use the same entrance, or even swim in the same pool. I can't help but to see it as a civil rights thing, ...and a desire to maintain a taboo, for fear of what could occur were many men to develop a better comfort level with gays. They'd be screweing each other, letting their latent tendencies come out, rather than saving the testosterone to fuel their hostility on the front lines.

It has nothing to do with homophobia, and gays aren't a separate race LOL!

[24KT]

It has nothing to do with homophobia, and gays aren't a separate race LOL!

I think it is homophobia, ...and gays might as well be a separate race for all the whooping & hollering that takes place over their mere existence.

[The Showstoppa]

This part I understand. I remember when I was in the 7th  grade. A bunch of us girls snuck a few guys into the girl's change room afterschool. The guys were blown away by the fact that we had individual private stalls & shower curtains. They were so mesmerized by the relative luxury of the girls change room, ...we became curious to see what the guys had. so, ...they snuck us into the boys change room. It was one big communal shower. yuck!

I understand the concept of open bay showers and open berths, what I don't understand is the difference it makes whether you know the guy is gay or not. Whether or not you know, doesn't change the fact that he's still gay, and he's there. It sounds to me like the big objection towards openly gay men, is the discomfort level it would bring to those who would not otherwise feel uncomfortable if they did not know? is that the thrust of it? {no pun intentended} I don't see how keeping gays out of the military is going to change the living standards. If barring gays meant you'd get shower curtains, then I can understand it, ...but it sounds to me more like an attempt to appease the homophobic. There was also a time when people thought it was highly improper for Black people to sleep in the same room as whites, eat at the same table, attend the same school, use the same entrance, or even swim in the same pool. I can't help but to see it as a civil rights thing, ...and a desire to maintain a taboo, for fear of what could occur were many men to develop a better comfort level with gays. They'd be screweing each other, letting their latent tendencies come out, rather than saving the testosterone to fuel their hostility on the front lines.

Maybe we are arguing different points.  I don't think gays should be allowed to serve at all.  The "don't ask, don't tell" policy seems to be what you are talking about.  I think it's a stupid policy.  Thats where the "don't know" thing you are talking about comes in.  I served under both policies.  One where there where no gays allowed, and then the "don't ask, don't tell" which was just an appeasement that Clinton threw to gay supporters....most of whom were pissed because he had campaigned to end the ban all together.

Here is really what it boils down to.  As a civilian, someone can choose who they shower with, live with, etc... but in the military you can not.  It would be like someone coming to your apartment and telling you that Rush Limbaugh is now your roommate and you also will shower together.  Like I said, how can you differentiate whether someone prefers to shower with whichever sex?  I would choose women.  either that or they build staight men, gay men, straight women, gay women shower facilities on all military bases and ships.....not very cost effective. 

[drkaje]

Maybe we are arguing different points.  I don't think gays should be allowed to serve at all.  The "don't ask, don't tell" policy seems to be what you are talking about.  I think it's a stupid policy.  Thats where the "don't know" thing you are talking about comes in.  I served under both policies.  One where there where no gays allowed, and then the "don't ask, don't tell" which was just an appeasement that Clinton threw to gay supporters....most of whom were pissed because he had campaigned to end the ban all together.

Here is really what it boils down to.  As a civilian, someone can choose who they shower with, live with, etc... but in the military you can not.  It would be like someone coming to your apartment and telling you that Rush Limbaugh is now your roommate and you also will shower together.  Like I said, how can you differentiate whether someone prefers to shower with whichever sex?  I would choose women.  either that or they build staight men, gay men, straight women, gay women shower facilities on all military bases and ships.....not very cost effective. 

Can you imagine Judi showering with Rush's fat ass?

[The Showstoppa]

Can you imagine Judi showering with Rush's fat ass?

haha, and if she won't we can call her a cellulitephobe.....

[drkaje]

haha, and if she won't we can call her a cellulitephobe.....

They could rinse each other's backs.

[24KT]

Maybe we are arguing different points.  I don't think gays should be allowed to serve at all.  The "don't ask, don't tell" policy seems to be what you are talking about.  I think it's a stupid policy.  Thats where the "don't know" thing you are talking about comes in.  I served under both policies.  One where there where no gays allowed, and then the "don't ask, don't tell" which was just an appeasement that Clinton threw to gay supporters....most of whom were pissed because he had campaigned to end the ban all together.

Here is really what it boils down to.  As a civilian, someone can choose who they shower with, live with, etc... but in the military you can not.  It would be like someone coming to your apartment and telling you that Rush Limbaugh is now your roommate and you also will shower together.  Like I said, how can you differentiate whether someone prefers to shower with whichever sex?  I would choose women.  either that or they build staight men, gay men, straight women, gay women shower facilities on all military bases and ships.....not very cost effective. 

I wasn't really arguing any point, ...justt trying to understand the situation.
Yes, I think 'Don't ask, don't tell' is beyond ridiculous.

So I guess it all does come down to an attempt to assuage a discomfort level.

if Rush was assigned as my roomate, ...he wouldn't be for long. I guarantee one of us would kill the other.
I'd cram that cigar so far down his throat, he'd choke to death on it.

[drkaje]

I wasn't really arguing any point, ...justt trying to understand the situation.
Yes, I think 'Don't ask, don't tell' is beyond ridiculous.

So I guess it all does come down to an attempt to assuage a discomfort level.

if Rush was assigned as my roomate, ...he wouldn't be for long. I guarantee one of us would kill the other.
I'd cram that cigar so far down his throat, he'd choke to death on it.

You wouldn't have that right as an enlisted person.

Think of how much fun it would be. Rush would go on a tirade, you'd cut and paste a silly response. Good times, Judi. Good times.

I'd be stealing Hoyos from Rush all the time, LOL!

[24KT]

haha, and if she won't we can call her a cellulitephobe.....

See, here the big difference though. Rush is rush... a loudmouth, arrogant, hypocritical, drug addicted prick, who needs his lips sewn shut. Not all gay men are as annoying as Richard Simmons. If you had to bunk with Rambo, and it turns out Rambo was gay, who would you rather have watching your back? A gay Rambo, ...or a straight Richard Simmons?

[24KT]

You wouldn't have that right as an enlisted person.

Think of how much fun it would be. Rush would go on a tirade, you'd cut and paste a silly response. Good times, Judi. Good times.

I'd be stealing Hoyos from Rush all the time, LOL!

What are hoyos?

[drkaje]

What are hoyos?

Hoyo De Monterray cigars!!!

[24KT]

You wouldn't have that right as an enlisted person.

Think of how much fun it would be. Rush would go on a tirade, you'd cut and paste a silly response. Good times, Judi. Good times.

I'd be stealing Hoyos from Rush all the time, LOL!

Ya, but do you really think openly gay men would be screwing each other in the barracks 24/7?
Is that what they are afraid of? too much fvcking and not enough fighting?

the difference is if Rush went off on a tirade, I'd be forced to listen to it.
But someone being gay... are you saying you'd be forced to watch them have sex?

To me, it's as ridiculous as barring men who prefer redheads in favour only of those who prefer brunettes,
...or barring men who preferred breasts, over men with a fondness for legs. like I said... I don't get it.

[24KT]

Hoyo De Monterray cigars!!!

Are they high quality Cuban cigars, ...or smelly American made crap?

[tonymctones]

Its good to know you dont mind showering with ppl who find you sexually attractive jag, Ill let you know when I make it up your way  

do you think its ok for men and women to shower together jag? even if the women doesnt want the man there?

[drkaje]

Ya, but do you really think openly gay men would be screwing each other in the barracks 24/7?
Is that what they are afraid of? too much fvcking and not enough fighting?

the difference is if Rush went off on a tirade, I'd be forced to listen to it.
But someone being gay... are you saying you'd be forced to watch them have sex?

To me, it's as ridiculous as barring men who prefer redheads in favour only of those who prefer brunettes,
...or barring men who preferred breats, over men with a fondness for legs. like I said... I don't get it.

Why do you think this has so much to do with sex? Do you seriously think gays are just a bunch of oversexed people who screw all day?

If you had the necessary perspective to get it we wouldn't be having this discussion. Forcing unisex showers/room on soldiers is the simplest example I can come up with you might grasp.

[24KT]

Why do you think this has so much to do with sex? Do you seriously think gays are just a bunch of oversexed people who screw all day?

If you had the necessary perspective to get it we wouldn't be having this discussion. Forcing unisex showers/room on soldiers is the simplest example I can come up with you might grasp.

But how is a gay male soldier, different from a hetero male soldier, in relation to his fellow male soldiers?

[24KT]

Its good to know you dont mind showering with ppl who find you sexually attractive jag, Ill let you know when I make it up your way  

Trust me, ...you wouldn't want to shower with me. I'd squeal to all of GetBig how tiny your peepee is.  

do you think its ok for men and women to shower together jag? even if the women doesnt want the man there?

No I do not, ...however, the situation as it stands is men ARE showering with other men, both gay & hetero.
What I want to know is what difference does it make if a guy knows the man he's ALREADY showering with is gay?