Dick Durbin: 'If You Think It's A Socialist Plot, Drop Out' Of Your Federal Heal

[The Luke]

Nothing in Christianity mandates that I care of someone's else children, when their parents are capable of doing so themselves, or that a government entity should force me to do so, via excessive taxation.

...epic selective reading of the New Testament.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

...epic selective reading of the New Testament.


The Luke

I'm sorry! Where in Scripture is someone mandated to care for someone's else children, with their parents capable of doing such, or that others be savagely taxed to care for them?

Chapter and verse would be nice.

If ANYTHING, Scripture spoke AGAINST money being used improperly by Christians, as it related to caring for widows. Peter emphasized that widows with children got first priority over those without kids (as they could be redeemed by unmarried in-laws).

[Soul Crusher]

I'm sorry! Where in Scripture is someone mandated to care for someone's else children, with their parents capable of doing such, or that others be savagely taxed to care for them?

Chapter and verse would be nice.

McWay: its human decency remember?      
 

[MCWAY]

McWay: its human decency remember?      
 

As you just missed, due to my recent edit, people of faith took care of widows and orphans. Widows with kids were to receive care, FIRST. There were childless widows, who were abusing the funds of early churches. They DIDN'T NEED IT. Per Jewish law, an unmarried male relative of childless widow's dead husband was to REDEEM that widow and marry her, producing a child that would count as that of the deceased.

The point, of course, is that nothing mandates caring for someone else's offspring via fiscal sodomy by the government.

[The Luke]

Forgive me guys, but I'm a realist with a tendency to think for myself.

Explain to me how everyone chipping in together (according to their ability) to pay the true cost of healthcare without profitering is such a bad thing...?

If you don't like government run healthcare... then adopt the French system.  


But why pay $7k each per year for a shitty system with 50 million uninsured, 15% denial of service and serious risk of bankruptcy for everyone involved... that only enriches non-productive insurance companies?

The French pay $3k per year for a much better, universal system.


Why are you so eager to pay retail, when wholesale is so much better? It's like you rubes WANT to be ripped off.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

Forgive me guys, but I'm a realist with a tendency to think for myself.

Explain to me how everyone chipping in together (according to their ability) to pay the true cost of healthcare without profitering is such a bad thing...?

It's a bad thing, because such is FORCED by the government, which we don't want. Neither you nor the government determines the "ability" to pay for someone else's bills or healthcare.

If you don't like government run healthcare... then adopt the French system.  


But why pay $7k each per year for a shitty system with 50 million uninsured, 15% denial of service and serious risk of bankruptcy for everyone involved... that only enriches non-productive insurance companies?

The French pay $3k per year for a much better, universal system.


Why are you so eager to pay retail, when wholesale is so much better? It's like you rubes WANT to be ripped off.

The Luke

Once again, where in Scripture am I (or any other professed Christian) mandated to care for someone else's kids, or being severely taxed to do such?

BTW, the French don't have nearly as many people as we do. And the cost of healthcare is what's driving opposition to ObamaCare.

[Soul Crusher]

Forgive me guys, but I'm a realist with a tendency to think for myself.

Explain to me how everyone chipping in together (according to their ability) to pay the true cost of healthcare without profitering is such a bad thing...?

If you don't like government run healthcare... then adopt the French system.  


But why pay $7k each per year for a shitty system with 50 million uninsured, 15% denial of service and serious risk of bankruptcy for everyone involved... that only enriches non-productive insurance companies?

The French pay $3k per year for a much better, universal system.


Why are you so eager to pay retail, when wholesale is so much better? It's like you rubes WANT to be ripped off.



The Luke

Sources for your "stats"

[MCWAY]

Sources for your "stats"

And, while you're at it, we're still waiting for the "Yea" and "Amen" from Scripture, regarding your previous claims that I'm selectively reading Scripture, when it comes to how Christians are supposed to help the less-fortunate.

[The Luke]

BTW, the French don't have nearly as many people as we do. And the cost of healthcare is what's driving opposition to ObamaCare.

France has 65 million people, with 8% of it's population being foreign born.

America should be able to get healhcare for even less than France pays:
-larger population
-more urban living
-better infrastructure
...if you don't understand that, you need to Google: "economies of scale"



The Luke

[Mons Venus]

Forgive me guys, but I'm a realist with a tendency to think for myself.

Explain to me how everyone chipping in together (according to their ability) to pay the true cost of healthcare without profitering is such a bad thing...?

If you don't like government run healthcare... then adopt the French system.  


But why pay $7k each per year for a shitty system with 50 million uninsured, 15% denial of service and serious risk of bankruptcy for everyone involved... that only enriches non-productive insurance companies?

The French pay $3k per year for a much better, universal system.


Why are you so eager to pay retail, when wholesale is so much better? It's like you rubes WANT to be ripped off.



The Luke

The Luke bitchslapping.....as usual. 

[The Luke]

The Luke bitchslapping.....as usual. 

Nice to be appreciated.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

France has 65 million people, with 8% of it's population being foreign born.

America should be able to get healhcare for even less than France pays:
-larger population
-more urban living
-better infrastructure
...if you don't understand that, you need to Google: "economies of scale"



The Luke

Yet, nobody here is flying to France for healthcare. We like our healthcare system and DO NOT WANT socialized healthcare. Plus, lest you forget, the reason their healthcare is so "cheap" is because they get bled dry via their tax system. So, really, they ain't getting the bargain that you claim.

Plus, there's still the little matter of those Bible verses you've yet to produce. Or the source of those questionable numbers for which 333386 asked (which I'm sure he'll be able to rip apart, with some actual facts).

[The Luke]

Yet, nobody here is flying to France for healthcare. We like our healthcare system and DO NOT WANT socialized healthcare. Plus, lest you forget, the reason their healthcare is so "cheap" is because they get bled dry via their tax system. So, really, they ain't getting the bargain that you claim.

France spends $3,000 per capita for healthcare... that's $3k in taxes per person. For that they get 100% unlimited access to the very best healthcare system in the world.

America spends $7,500 per capita for healthcare... approx $3k in premiums per person and $4,500 in taxes/salary levies.


So the average American is ALREADY paying more in taxes for his healthcare than the French do... it's just that you guys aren't savvy enough to know when you're being ripped off, and so you pay even more directly out of your own pocket for 85% access (15% denial rate) to the 37th best healthcare system in the world.

Maybe the French are just smarter and more capitalist than you guys.


...and Americans don't "like" their healthcare system; a third of them opt for socialisd care (Medicare; Tricare; government employees etc) and a sixth of them have no coverage. That's 150 million people.

Why not ask one of the 50 million uninsured what they think of your healthcare system?

Why not ask one of the 15% who are denied catastrophic coverage what they think of your healthcare system?

Why not ask a bankrupt their opinion? Most bankruptcies are due to medical bills and most of those bankrupted by medical bills had full coverage.


Sorry to sound so aggressive, but...

You don't know the denial-of-coverage rate.
You don't understand the impact of insurance company profiteering.
You don't know anything about any other healthcare system, or how they are funded.
You don't undrstand how socialised medicine works.
You don't even understand what the word "socialised" means.

You just unquestioningly parrot corporate propaganda.

Seriously, you're just arguing your own ignorance... and embarrassing yourself.


The Luke

[MCWAY]

France spends $3,000 per capita for healthcare... that's $3k in taxes per person. For that they get 100% unlimited access to the very best healthcare system in the world.

America spends $7,500 per capita for healthcare... approx $3k in premiums per person and $4,500 in taxes/salary levies.


So the average American is ALREADY paying more in taxes for his healthcare than the French do... it's just that you guys aren't savvy enough to know when you're being ripped off, and so you pay even more directly out of your own pocket for 85% access (15% denial rate) to the 37th best healthcare system in the world.

Maybe the French are just smarter and more capitalist than you guys.


...and Americans don't "like" their healthcare system; a third of them opt for socialisd care (Medicare; Tricare; government employees etc) and a sixth of them have no coverage. That's 150 million people.

Why not ask one of the 50 million uninsured what they think of your healthcare system?

First, we don't have 50 million uninsured. That estimate is, at best, 30 million (and there's way too much debate about that, namely as it relates to people who have no business here, in the first place).

Second, as has been explained to you, working for the government (i.e. DoD) is NOT socialized healthcare. Those people simply get benefits from their employer, just like everybody else. When they STOP working for the government, they STOP getting the benefits (unless, it's a compensation package).

Why not ask one of the 15% who are denied catastrophic coverage what they think of your healthcare system?

Why not ask a bankrupt their opinion? Most bankruptcies are due to medical bills and most of those bankrupted by medical bills had full coverage.

Or, I can ask the 85% (at least) of Americans who like their healthcare.

Sorry to sound so aggressive, but...

You don't know the denial-of-coverage rate.
You don't understand the impact of insurance company profiteering.
You don't know anything about any other healthcare system, or how they are funded.
You don't undrstand how socialised medicine works.
You don't even understand what the word "socialised" means.

You just unquestioningly parrot corporate propaganda.

Seriously, you're just arguing your own ignorance... and embarrassing yourself.


The Luke

The only person I'm embarrassing is YOU, namely because you made a claim about military being on "socialized" healthcare, which is categorically FALSE.

The only people that get TriCare are active duty and retired military (and their families). Again, that's simply because the active duty and retired guys WORK for the DoD. When that STOPS, so does the TriCare benefits.

And, you've YET to produce the source of your questionable (to say the least) number, let alone those mysterious Bible verses that mandate Christians caring for children, whose parents are capable of taking care of them or being taxed excessively to care for them.

[The Luke]

First, we don't have 50 million uninsured. That estimate is, at best, 30 million (and there's way too much debate about that, namely as it relates to people who have no business here, in the first place).

...the BBC reported 46 million this time last year.

Or, I can ask the 85% (at least) of Americans who like their healthcare.

...that would be 85% of the half of Americans with private coverage. That's 43% of Americans.

I know maths is difficult... but if you think it through.

The only person I'm embarrassing is YOU, namely because you made a claim about military being on "socialized" healthcare, which is categorically FALSE.

...healthcare paid for by the taxpayer is "socialised healthcare" by definition.

Get a dictionary, or ask someone who understands these words used in politics.

And, you've YET to produce the source of your questionable (to say the least) number, let alone those mysterious Bible verses that mandate Christians caring for children, whose parents are capable of taking care of them or being taxed excessively to care for them.

"What you do for the least among you, you do for me" ...translation: Help the needy and the poor.

"Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's" ...translation: Pay your taxes.

I think your boyfriend Jeebus said both of those things, but I'm not religious... maybe the Bible is against the kind of socialism that the communist early Christians adopted.

Maybe Jesus hates the poor... he never spoke out against the rape and slavery endemic in his society, shitty human being that he was. 


The Luke

[MCWAY]

...the BBC reported 46 million this time last year.


...that would be 85% of the half of Americans with private coverage. That's 43% of Americans.

I know maths is difficult... but if you think it through.

That number is bogus, as it fails to account for illegal aliens. It also forgets that are people who are uninsured BY CHOICE.

...healthcare paid for by the taxpayer is "socialised healthcare" by definition.

The serviceman works for the government (and thus the taxpayer) and gets healthcare only when that remains the case. Again, they don't get that simply for existing. And therein lies the difference. You don't work for Disney. Do you really expect that coporation to cover your healthcare?

Get a dictionary, or ask someone who understands these words used in politics.

"What you do for the least among you, you do for me" ...translation: Help the needy and the poor.

Imposing socialized healthcare IS NOT NECESSARY to do that. Plus, Christians help the needy and poor, ANYWAY, as many humanitarian organizations in this country are religious-based.

"Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's" ...translation: Pay your taxes.

We already do. That DOES NOT give the government the right to insanely HIKE them to cover someone else's healthcare.

I think your boyfriend Jeebus said both of those things, but I'm not religious... maybe the Bible is against the kind of socialism that the communist early Christians adopted.

Maybe Jesus hates the poor... he never spoke out against the rape and slavery endemic in his society, shitty human being that he was.  


The Luke

Wrong again!!! The early Christians adopted no such thing. When they helped the needy, they did so WITH THEIR OWN RESOURCES, not from the government. Again, see the earlier example of how Peter and the early Christians took care of widows and orphans.

[The Luke]

The serviceman works for the government (and thus the taxpayer) and gets healthcare only when that remains the case. Again, they don't get that simply for existing. And therein lies the difference.

...look I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat with you McWay, because... well, frankly, I think you disagree with the blatantly obvious just to get attention.

But please, how do you expect anyone to take your arguments seriously when you can't even take the time to check the definition of a word you keep misusing.

The American military is "socialised" by definition; under government control and paid for by taxpayer dollars.

American military healthcare is likewise "socialised" by definition; under government control and paid for by taxpayer dollars.

None of this is debatable... and no one else agrees with your misunderstanding.  


You keep bringing this up, arguing that somehow military healthcare only being offered to DoD employees and their dependants negates it being "socialised".

But that's not a condition of a service being socialised. What you are doing is arguing that military healthcare isn't socialised because it isn't UNIVERSAL... because you don't now the difference.


If you don't know or understand the difference between "socialised" and "universal"... if you don't understand that 85% of the Americans who have private healthcare is NOT the same as 85% of ALL Americans... if you believe that Christianity is incompatible with universal or socialised healthcare... if you don't understand that France paying $3k per capita when America pays $7,500 per capita means the French pay LESS, not MORE than Americans for healthcare... if you don't understand that Americans pay more per capita than they pay in premiums MEANS Americans are already paying for most of their healthcare via taxes...


...if you can't understand any of these blatantly obvious uncontested facts, I don't know how to help you.

Maybe put down the Bible and read a second book...?


The Luke

[MCWAY]

...look I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat with you McWay, because... well, frankly, I think you disagree with the blatantly obvious just to get attention.

But please, how do you expect anyone to take your arguments seriously when you can't even take the time to check the definition of a word you keep misusing.

The American military is "socialised" by definition; under government control and paid for by taxpayer dollars.


American military healthcare is likewise "socialised" by definition; under government control and paid for by taxpayer dollars.

And affects only those under government/DoD employ (and their families).....NOBODY ELSE.

You keep bringing this up, arguing that somehow military healthcare only being offered to DoD employees and their dependants negates it being "socialised".

The part you keep leaving out is the rest of my argument, namely that their benefit is a condition of EMPLOYMENT. As stated earlier, I have no problem (and neither do 333386, Billy, or Skip) with the military's healthcare because it's part of their JOB benefits. The operative word, being....JOB.

It's their choice to get it, as part of an employment deal. It's not forced on them by government and nobody (who doesn't work for DoD) gets fined and/or jailed for not using TriCare.

Just as I expect a civilian employer to give me health benefits, if I work for them, I expect the DoD to give me health benefits if I work for it.

But that's not a condition of a service being socialised. What you are doing is arguing that military healthcare isn't socialised because it isn't UNIVERSAL... because you don't now the difference.

What I'm arguing is that your claim about right-wingers (particularly military) not wanting others to have what they have is off-base. Military get that, because they WORK for DoD. Nobody, not me, 333386, or anyone else want to deny people getting health insurance FROM THEIR EMPLOYER.

If you don't know or understand the difference between "socialised" and "universal"... if you don't understand that 85% of the Americans who have private healthcare is NOT the same as 85% of ALL Americans... if you believe that Christianity is incompatible with universal or socialised healthcare... if you don't understand that France paying $3k per capita when America pays $7,500 per capita means the French pay LESS, not MORE than Americans for healthcare... if you don't understand that Americans pay more per capita than they pay in premiums MEANS Americans are already paying for most of their healthcare via taxes...


...if you can't understand any of these blatantly obvious uncontested facts, I don't know how to help you.

I didn't ask for, nor do I need your "help". France has fewer people and Americans are paying (unfortunately) for people who have no business being here (among other things).

As for your blurb about Christianity, again there is NO MANDATE that Christians must care for others via universal healthcare. All the ways in which Christians are directed to help the poor are ALREADY BEING DONE, as again many humanitarian institutions are religious (Christian)-based.

Maybe put down the Bible and read a second book...?


The Luke

I've read plenty of other books, besides the Bible. What does that have to do with your claims about Christianity and healthcare being DEAD WRONG?

[chaos]

The Luke.............how is health care in Ireland? Do your parents pay for your health care or do the taxpayers?  How much is it per capita?

[MCWAY]

The Luke.............how is health care in Ireland? Do your parents pay for your health care or do the taxpayers?  How much is it per capita?

Can his parents still claim him as a dependent?

[The Luke]

And affects only those under government/DoD employ (and their families).....NOBODY ELSE.

The part you keep leaving out is the rest of my argument, namely that their benefit is a condition of EMPLOYMENT. As stated earlier, I have no problem (and neither do 333386, Billy, or Skip) with the military's healthcare because it's part of their JOB benefits. The operative word, being....JOB.

It's their choice to get it, as part of an employment deal. It's not forced on them by government.

Just as I expect a civilian employer to give me health benefits, if I work for them, I expect the DoD to give me health benefits if I work for them.

What I'm arguing is that your claim about right-wingers (particularly military) not wanting others to have what they have is off-base. Military get that, because they WORK for DoD. Nobody, not me, 333386, or anyone else want to deny people getting health insurance FROM THEIR EMPLOYER.

...so you still don't understand what "socialised" means and you're still conflating it (erroneously) with enforced healthcare; universal healthcare and government monopoly healthcare.  

I didn't ask for, nor do I need your "help". France has fewer people and Americans are paying (unfortunately) for people who have no business being here (among other things).

...France has 65 million people with 8% of them being foreign born.

So your population argument (parroted directly from the health insurers propoganda) doesn't hold water as France is equivalent in population to any of the American states.

Almost all of Europe has universal socialised medicine and European citizens can travel to any member state for healthcare and have their own government pick up the tab.

So what you are really doing, is excusing America's failings based on the fact that it has a larger popultion than the EU... but America has 300 million people, and the EU has 350 million people.


Besides, a larger population REDUCES healthcare costs, it doesn't inflate them... again, you are both wrong on the facts and wrong in your reasoning.  

I've read plenty of other books, besides the Bible. What does that have to do with your claims about Christianity and healthcare being DEAD WRONG?

...but none of it seems to stick.


Gotta log off now dude, I'll laugh at your delusions again tomorrow.


The Luke

[chaos]

...so you still don't understand what "socialised" means and you're still conflating it (erroneously) with enforced healthcare; universal healthcare and government monopoly healthcare.  


...France has 65 million people with 8% of them being foreign born.

So your population argument (parroted directly from the health insurers propoganda) doesn't hold water as France is equivalent in population to any of the American states.

Almost all of Europe has universal socialised medicine and European citizens can travel to any member state for healthcare and have their own government pick up the tab.

So what you are really doing, is excusing America's failings based on the fact that it has a larger popultion than the EU... but America has 300 million people, and the EU has 350 million people.


Besides, a larger population REDUCES healthcare costs, it doesn't inflate them... again, you are both wrong on the facts and wrong in your reasoning.  


...but none of it seems to stick.


Gotta log off now dude, I'll laugh at your delusions again tomorrow.


The Luke

Why ignore my questions about your own countries health care system

[MCWAY]

...so you still don't understand what "socialised" means and you're still conflating it (erroneously) with enforced healthcare; universal healthcare and government monopoly healthcare.  

I know what "socialized" means. I also know that your use of such, when criticizing those in the military was off-base. And I explained the reasons why.

Contrary to your claim, right-wingers don't have a problem with other people getting what they have, especially if they're in the military.

But, the average Joe who is not in the Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines/Coast Guard DOES NOT DESERVE TriCare insurance.

...France has 65 million people with 8% of them being foreign born.

So your population argument (parroted directly from the health insurers propoganda) doesn't hold water as France is equivalent in population to any of the American states.

And, those states with "universal health care" are swimming in RED (i.e. Massachusetts), due to certain budget issues.

As is France (which you conveniently left out)

France claims it long ago achieved much of what today's U.S. health-care overhaul is seeking: It covers everyone, and provides what supporters say is high-quality care. But soaring costs are pushing the system into crisis. The result: As Congress fights over whether America should be more like France, the French government is trying to borrow U.S. tactics.

In recent months, France imposed American-style "co-pays" on patients to try to throttle back prescription-drug costs and forced state hospitals to crack down on expenses. "A hospital doesn't need to be money-losing to provide good-quality treatment," President Nicolas Sarkozy thundered in a recent speech to doctors.....

French taxpayers fund a state health insurer, Assurance Maladie, proportionally to their income, and patients get treatment even if they can't pay for it. France spends 11% of national output on health services, compared with 17% in the U.S., and routinely outranks the U.S. in infant mortality and some other health measures.

The problem is that Assurance Maladie has been in the red since 1989. This year the annual shortfall is expected to reach €9.4 billion ($13.5 billion), and €15 billion in 2010, or roughly 10% of its budget.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html

Almost all of Europe has universal socialised medicine and European citizens can travel to any member state for healthcare and have their own government pick up the tab.

So what you are really doing, is excusing America's failings based on the fact that it has a larger popultion than the EU... but America has 300 million people, and the EU has 350 million people.

America hasn't failed in this matter, except in the minds of the left, who are obsessed with government health care. It hasn't needed universal healthcare to this point and it doesn't need it now.

Besides, a larger population REDUCES healthcare costs, it doesn't inflate them... again, you are both wrong on the facts and wrong in your reasoning.  

It's inflated, because of other factors, not the least of which is funding illegal aliens. And your so-called lowered healthcare costs are OFFSET by much HIGHER TAXES. Hence, the reason Obama has to HIKE UP TAXES (not just on the "rich") to pay for this mess of his.

...but none of it seems to stick.


Gotta log off now dude, I'll laugh at your delusions again tomorrow.


The Luke

Plenty of it does. We Americans like our taxes low. We rather keep our money and buy private insurance, as we see fit, than have government-run insurance, pure and simple.

[MCWAY]

I know what "socialized" means. I also know that your use of such, when criticizing those in the military was off-base. And I explained the reasons why.

Contrary to your claim, right-wingers don't have a problem with other people getting what they have, especially if they're in the military.

But, the average Joe who is not in the Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines/Coast Guard DOES NOT DESERVE TriCare insurance.

Plus, those on TriCare don’t necessarily get to go where they want. They MUST go to a military hospital/clinic within 50 miles of where they’re stationed (active duty) or where they live (retired), or to a civilian hospital/clinic after being referred by that military installation. That’s why it’s no/extremely low cost

And, therein lies the rub. If the government foots the bill for your healthcare, it decided what you get, when you get it, how you get it, or IF you get it.

If you work for the government (i.e. DoD), that’s one thing. You know that’s part of the deal. It’s those who DON’T work for the government that are in danger. If you think that Shameka from the ‘hood or Becky from the trailer park is going to get the same care that Nancy Pelosi gets, you’re definitely on that stuff.

[The Luke]

McWay,


Dude, you just argued that the French (who have a smaller GDP than America and spend 10% of it on healthcare: $3k per capita) PAY MORE for their healthcare than Americans (who have a bigger GDP and spend 17% of it or $7,500 per capita on healthcare).

So nobody who understands anything about the French system is taking you seriously any more.

Everyone who understands that 17% of a big number is more than 10% of a small number is dismissing you.

Even those who only noticed that $3,000 is cheaper than $7,500 are dismissing your argument.


So when you keep re-quoting yourself and bumping this thread, the only person you are convincing is yourself... everyone else has long been convinced you are a fool.


Simple facts: the French have a go-to-the-doctor-YOU-want, get-the-treatment-YOU-want, take-the-medications-YOU-want, abuse-the-system-as-much-as-YOU-want CAPITALIST taxpayer picks up the tab system that's ranked number 1 in the entire world... yet it still only costs $3k per person.

So what would happen if America adopted the French system...?

Well, you'd all pay $3k per year in taxes... rather than the $7,500 per year in premiums AND taxes you all already pay.


There is no way around that simple arithmetic. You anti-socialist morons (who don't understand what "socialist" even means) are getting scammed: you pay double what the French pay, the care you get is ranked 37th, you have a 15% chance of not being covered, you have a 15% of being denied care even if you have coverage.

Plain, simple, facts. Just 'cos you don't understand it, that doesn't change the facts.


And this sort of racist/classist jibe:

If you think that Shameka from the ‘hood or Becky from the trailer park is going to get the same care that Nancy Pelosi gets, you’re definitely on that stuff.

...just shows you for the hypocritical pseudo-Christian you really are.


In disgust,
The Luke