Author Topic: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?  (Read 66670 times)

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2014, 01:08:30 PM »
Ironic.... I was just having a discussion with someone the other day about arguing politics and religion. Someone said "name one accomplishment Obama had done in his presidency that wasn't horrific." So the person started naming some things. With each thing offered, the other guy refused to accept it. So at the end of an hour one guy was still convinced Obama hadn't done one good thing and the other guy was convinced his buddy was closed minded and refuses to admit he's wrong. Kind of reminded me of an atheist and a christian arguing over contradictions or prophecies in the bible. It's pointless.        

All a believer can do when speaking to an atheist is try and understand their perspective, give insights into objections they have, answer questions where able and simply demonstrate that they represent Christ.  

The discussion can feel pointless to some, but I don't speak about my faith hoping to convert an atheist to Christ.  Now, if that happens then awesome, but I'm under no delusion that it will....firm choices have been made.  

I'm speaking to those that haven't made a choice and that aren't speaking because they may not know what to say.  Atheists and agnostics are at the forefront of most discussion because they have made a definite choice about God and choose to voice it and engage theists.  I use those dialogues as opportunities to provide the other side of the coin - the Christian answer to the atheist question.  I'm not always successful, but I learn as I go.

andreisdaman

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2014, 06:55:22 AM »
Ironic.... I was just having a discussion with someone the other day about arguing politics and religion. Someone said "name one accomplishment Obama had done in his presidency that wasn't horrific." So the person started naming some things. With each thing offered, the other guy refused to accept it. So at the end of an hour one guy was still convinced Obama hadn't done one good thing and the other guy was convinced his buddy was closed minded and refuses to admit he's wrong. Kind of reminded me of an atheist and a christian arguing over contradictions or prophecies in the bible. It's pointless.       

Good point....most people in today's America are so close-minded that no one will concede their point of view.....back in teh old days, people's opinions would change or evolve when exposed to more information......there was more critical thinking.....now its become an us vs them thing and arguments now get no where and nothing is accomplished...it takes all the fun and joy out of debate and the debate just becomes tedious and a time-waster.

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2014, 02:17:34 PM »
Good point....most people in today's America are so close-minded that no one will concede their point of view.....back in teh old days, people's opinions would change or evolve when exposed to more information......there was more critical thinking.....now its become an us vs them thing and arguments now get no where and nothing is accomplished...it takes all the fun and joy out of debate and the debate just becomes tedious and a time-waster.

What period of time do you refer to when you note "the old days"?  What new information are you referring to?

When it comes to religious discussion some of the points have been raised and discussed for thousands of years.  

New generations reaching the same conclusions as past generations and often raising objections that have often been put to bed by past generations.  

Religious folks are continually labeled as narrow-minded, but when a person experiences the risen Christ in their life they realize other gods are false, that Christ rose from the dead.  No other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ.   Christians in particular are narrow minded because Christ is the narrow gate.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.


BigRo

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2014, 02:29:16 PM »
Christians can be narrow minded, Christ is not.




Agnostic007

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2014, 11:53:04 AM »
What period of time do you refer to when you note "the old days"?  What new information are you referring to?

When it comes to religious discussion some of the points have been raised and discussed for thousands of years.  

New generations reaching the same conclusions as past generations and often raising objections that have often been put to bed by past generations.  

Religious folks are continually labeled as narrow-minded, but when a person experiences the risen Christ in their life they realize other gods are false, that Christ rose from the dead.  No other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ.   Christians in particular are narrow minded because Christ is the narrow gate.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.



Interesting.. you seem to put a lot of stock in "no other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ". From an outsider point of view...it begs the question "so? why is that better than a religion without a resurrected god? Why is that different than the religions of the past like Mithraism that had a very similar resurrected god story that predateds Christianity?" 

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2014, 11:04:56 AM »
Interesting.. you seem to put a lot of stock in "no other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ". From an outsider point of view...it begs the question "so? why is that better than a religion without a resurrected god? Why is that different than the religions of the past like Mithraism that had a very similar resurrected god story that predateds Christianity?" 

Simply put, the resurrection of Christ is validated in history through non-biblical, non-Christian, contemporaneous writings.  No other "god" has had prophecy fulfilled like Christ has in scripture.  Since his resurrection Jesus Christ has been experienced by millions (both Christian and non-Christian). 

So tell me about the similarities that exist between Christ and Mithras?  Most I've read about are a great deal of a stretch at the very, very best.

Despite the rather marginal evidence supporting the existence of a Mithraic following prior to Christ many theological scholars and educators of mystery religions do acknowledge an earlier date for the cult of Mithras although they do agree that later Mithraic followings actually borrowed from Christianity.

andreisdaman

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2014, 04:37:44 PM »
Simply put, the resurrection of Christ is validated in history through non-biblical, non-Christian, contemporaneous writings.  No other "god" has had prophecy fulfilled like Christ has in scripture.  Since his resurrection Jesus Christ has been experienced by millions (both Christian and non-Christian). 

So tell me about the similarities that exist between Christ and Mithras?  Most I've read about are a great deal of a stretch at the very, very best.

Despite the rather marginal evidence supporting the existence of a Mithraic following prior to Christ many theological scholars and educators of mystery religions do acknowledge an earlier date for the cult of Mithras although they do agree that later Mithraic followings actually borrowed from Christianity.

There was no resurrection....get over it

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2014, 03:56:33 AM »
There was no resurrection....get over it

Well guess that settles that!


andreisdaman

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2014, 06:22:40 AM »
Well guess that settles that!


neither of us can prove that it did or didn't happen...therefore my statement is as valid as yours......the only way there could have been a resurrection is if the Romans thought Jesus was dead and then he briefly became conscious again before succumbing to his injuries...

Agnostic007

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2014, 06:27:18 AM »
Simply put, the resurrection of Christ is validated in history through non-biblical, non-Christian, contemporaneous writings.  No other "god" has had prophecy fulfilled like Christ has in scripture.  Since his resurrection Jesus Christ has been experienced by millions (both Christian and non-Christian). 

So tell me about the similarities that exist between Christ and Mithras?  Most I've read about are a great deal of a stretch at the very, very best.

Despite the rather marginal evidence supporting the existence of a Mithraic following prior to Christ many theological scholars and educators of mystery religions do acknowledge an earlier date for the cult of Mithras although they do agree that later Mithraic followings actually borrowed from Christianity.

Jesus....seriously?

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2014, 07:12:19 AM »
neither of us can prove that it did or didn't happen...therefore my statement is as valid as yours......the only way there could have been a resurrection is if the Romans thought Jesus was dead and then he briefly became conscious again before succumbing to his injuries...

I can lead you right to Christ, but it's up to you to seek him individually and come to him on his terms.  You want Christ to reveal himself to you in powerful ways then you must come to him as outlined in scripture.

The burden of surrendering to Christ on his terms is each individual's.  My job is to share my faith and help others that want to know Christ.

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2014, 07:20:27 AM »
Jesus....seriously?

Mithra, Horus and other mystery religions and cults are topics that new generations of atheists discover over and over.  Unfortunately, they are antiquated and debunked arguments that are continually recycled as new.  With Bill Maher's "Religulous" he helped introduce these topics to the current generation yet neglected to mention the history of the argumentation....gee, wonder why LOL?  

Edwin Yamouchi is an expert on such topics and was part of a great Mithraic conference last century that discussed and debunked all the old arguments, but others prior to Dr. Yamouchi had already done the same.  

What can I or anyone else do though?  People love their "coffee house objections" whether they are valid or not.  If you want I'll grab my literature on Mithra and show you how the comparisons between Mithraism and Christianity fall apart.   

Agnostic007

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2014, 07:36:48 AM »
Mithra, Horus and other mystery religions and cults are topics that new generations of atheists discover over and over.  Unfortunately, they are antiquated and debunked arguments that are continually recycled as new.  With Bill Maher's "Religulous" he helped introduce these topics to the current generation yet neglected to mention the history of the argumentation....gee, wonder why LOL?  

Edwin Yamouchi is an expert on such topics and was part of a great Mithraic conference last century that discussed and debunked all the old arguments, but others prior to Dr. Yamouchi had already done the same.  

What can I or anyone else do though?  People love their "coffee house objections" whether they are valid or not.  If you want I'll grab my literature on Mithra and show you how the comparisons between Mithraism and Christianity fall apart.   

Yet you still feel the resurrection "evidence" is solid... ironic no?

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2014, 08:05:03 AM »
Yet you still feel the resurrection "evidence" is solid... ironic no?

I've personally experienced the risen Christ....that was pretty solid for me. 

andreisdaman

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2014, 08:44:55 AM »
I've personally experienced the risen Christ....that was pretty solid for me. 

Dude..lay off the Mushrooms

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2014, 11:17:12 AM »

BigRo

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2014, 02:04:45 AM »
lay on the mushrooms I say!

Necrosis

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2014, 07:10:40 AM »
What period of time do you refer to when you note "the old days"?  What new information are you referring to?

When it comes to religious discussion some of the points have been raised and discussed for thousands of years.  

New generations reaching the same conclusions as past generations and often raising objections that have often been put to bed by past generations.  

Religious folks are continually labeled as narrow-minded, but when a person experiences the risen Christ in their life they realize other gods are false, that Christ rose from the dead.  No other world religion or cult has a resurrected God like Jesus Christ.   Christians in particular are narrow minded because Christ is the narrow gate.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.



This quote is pure bullshit, all that is needed to go to heaven is accepting christ as your saviour. Hitler would be in Heaven by the standards of your book. God forgives all does he not?

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2014, 07:17:32 AM »
This quote is pure bullshit, all that is needed to go to heaven is accepting christ as your saviour. Hitler would be in Heaven by the standards of your book. God forgives all does he not?

Christ is that narrow gate.

If Hitler had accepted Christ as savior he would be with his savior after he died.....this is true for anyone that comes to Christ.

The book isn't mine....I didn't author a single word of it.  I try and represent Christ and in doing so I represent his word.

No, God does not forgive all.  Those that willfully reject Christ will not have their sins forgiven.

Necrosis

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2014, 08:25:44 AM »
Christ is that narrow gate.

If Hitler had accepted Christ as savior he would be with his savior after he died.....this is true for anyone that comes to Christ.

The book isn't mine....I didn't author a single word of it.  I try and represent Christ and in doing so I represent his word.

No, God does not forgive all.  Those that willfully reject Christ will not have their sins forgiven.

seems like a pretty broad gate to me, you just admitted hitler could go to heaven simply by accepting christ, ya real difficult. Prison time is more difficult then getting into heaven apparently.

I can't understand how you can live your life like this, it's clearly cut from the same cloth as scientology, yet the timing makes it seem more reasonable?

it's so childish, raping, killing etc all forgiven, not being a christian... unforgivable.

Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2014, 08:51:42 AM »
seems like a pretty broad gate to me, you just admitted hitler could go to heaven simply by accepting christ, ya real difficult. Prison time is more difficult then getting into heaven apparently.

I can't understand how you can live your life like this, it's clearly cut from the same cloth as scientology, yet the timing makes it seem more reasonable?

it's so childish, raping, killing etc all forgiven, not being a christian... unforgivable.

The list of potential sins that could be committed is extremely broad.  The path to righteousness is extremely narrow yet available to all.

Yes prison time is more difficult because it's a punishment.  Salvation is about redemption and grace...it's a divine gift to avoid the wrath of God's judgement.

The Christian life is not promised to be easy.  It's actually promised to be quite difficult....there will be ridicule, hardship, loneliness, pain, etc.... but there's also redemption, righteousness, grace and love.

I'm interested in hearing about the similarities between Christianity and scientology.  What are they?

Those that have raped and killed can be forgiven through Christ.  Committing sin (an offense against God) creates a divide between the sinner and God.  Christ bridges the gap when the sinner says I don't want to sin anymore and want to align myself with God.  Remaining a non-Christian means you've chosen to reject God and therefore continue to defy and offend him.

Tell me, why should God forgive someone who outright rejects him and his offer to be aligned with him?  

The reality is children behalf in that manner, wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  Children are often defiant and act out inappropriately yet don't want to be held accountable when they've done wrong.  They often want all to be forgiven with no effort on their part when the threat of accountability, judgement and repercussions are presented.  

God gives humanity the opportunity to acknowledge what they've done wrong, turn from that behavior and follow him.....he provides an opportunity to grow and mature and align with him.

Necrosis

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2014, 10:21:23 AM »
The list of potential sins that could be committed is extremely broad.  The path to righteousness is extremely narrow yet available to all.

Yes prison time is more difficult because it's a punishment.  Salvation is about redemption and grace...it's a divine gift to avoid the wrath of God's judgement.

The Christian life is not promised to be easy.  It's actually promised to be quite difficult....there will be ridicule, hardship, loneliness, pain, etc.... but there's also redemption, righteousness, grace and love.

I'm interested in hearing about the similarities between Christianity and scientology.  What are they?

Those that have raped and killed can be forgiven through Christ.  Committing sin (an offense against God) creates a divide between the sinner and God.  Christ bridges the gap when the sinner says I don't want to sin anymore and want to align myself with God.  Remaining a non-Christian means you've chosen to reject God and therefore continue to defy and offend him.

Tell me, why should God forgive someone who outright rejects him and his offer to be aligned with him?  

The reality is children behalf in that manner, wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  Children are often defiant and act out inappropriately yet don't want to be held accountable when they've done wrong.  They often want all to be forgiven with no effort on their part when the threat of accountability, judgement and repercussions are presented.  

God gives humanity the opportunity to acknowledge what they've done wrong, turn from that behavior and follow him.....he provides an opportunity to grow and mature and align with him.

you said it all when you said hitler could make it to heaven. Holocaust<not being a christian. 

The whole point is that you are talking about god as if he was a human, he has human concerns (do as i say etc), he is jealous, he is like a parent, sounds like something a human cooked up no? If god knows the past present and future, this is all pointless, eternity negates purpose. It's so silly, it's so childish, if god exists he is nothing like us, I know this because I wouldn't drown the entire world when i already knew the outcome. He allows people to make their own decisions, then decides, nah fuck it I will start over, what sense does that make? why would he interfere at all?







Man of Steel

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2014, 11:45:04 AM »
you said it all when you said hitler could make it to heaven. Holocaust<not being a christian.  

The whole point is that you are talking about god as if he was a human, he has human concerns (do as i say etc), he is jealous, he is like a parent, sounds like something a human cooked up no? If god knows the past present and future, this is all pointless, eternity negates purpose. It's so silly, it's so childish, if god exists he is nothing like us, I know this because I wouldn't drown the entire world when i already knew the outcome. He allows people to make their own decisions, then decides, nah fuck it I will start over, what sense does that make? why would he interfere at all?

Despite even Hitler having the potential to become a Christian he was clearly not a Christian.  

Hitler even claimed to accept and associate with Christianity (as do many), but his works clearly reveal otherwise.  

James 2:14-25

Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[a] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.


Hitler may have claimed Christianity, but he clearly lived in opposition of Christ.  In the end, the Lord knows the contents of our hearts.

Those who object to God tend to approach him with the notion of “why does God need”.   Once you begin forming opinions from that perspective you do so in error.   God needs nothing, but he certainly desires a relationship with us.  

Within scripture we anthropomorphize God so that his infinite, divine nature is relatable to our finite, human nature.

Yes, God’s nature is divine.  God expresses that divine nature in the form of three persons in a trinity:  Father, Son and Spirit.  The second person of that trinity – God the Son – entered into the world and became incarnate.  His nature then became a dual nature in that he is both divine and human.  Christianity defines this as the hypostatic union.    Jesus Christ became flesh and dwelt among man so that we may truly understand and relate to the God we serve.

What is the divine jealousy of God?  Is it the petty jealousy expressed in mankind in which we covet those things that don’t belong to us?  No.  God is jealous for all that belongs to him and there’s nothing wrong with that.  Like a husband that becomes jealous of another man that makes advances upon his wife.  That type of jealousy is completely appropriate.

God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and will for our lives is fully compatible with our ability to choose.  

Foreknowledge does not mean the choices have been made for us.  Many posit that God could create any number of universes to satisfy a specific circumstance, but I believe he has created the perfect universe already using his foreknowledge of our future free choices.  In doing so he provided the opportunity for his own creation to eliminate evil and suffering via their choice for Jesus Christ.  He fashioned the world in such a way that our choices would be upheld and he didn't force us to choose one way or another (one exception in that we do have to choose whether to accept or reject God).  Yes, his foreknowledge comes before the actual free choices we make, but his creation was contingent upon those future free choices and was perfectly fashioned to uphold them.  He allowed the contingency and therefore remains sovereign.  When one considers God's predetermined will we should also consider whether or not his will has also been pre-executed.  If that were the case then the biblical notion of free will would be meaningless as we are merely puppets.  He knows the outcome, but he allows events to play out however based upon our choices.  Within that period of choices he desires to guide and direct us back to his will so that our choices – our will – align with his will for our lives.    

Why did God “drown the world”?  Was it a capricious action?  What type of world was drowned?  Simply put, the whole of mankind was reprobate and had fully rejected God.  He handed down judgment upon the entirety of the world that was completely shrouded in evil and heinous behavior.  How many generations of children would continue to be corrupted if he allowed this behavior to persist?  How many people would be forever separated from his goodness?     It also displayed for future generations the reality of his law and the repercussions for ignoring that law.  God never interfered in their lives, but when the all hope for goodness had been eliminated he pronounced judgment upon the reprobate world and saved the small remnant of his people that remained.  The world wasn’t restarted….it continued on.  Although the reprobate population then entered eternity and remained separated from God as they had chosen to be.    

Why would you want a fully evil and hopeless population to continue on?

Necrosis

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2014, 01:40:12 PM »
Despite even Hitler having the potential to become a Christian he was clearly not a Christian.  

Hitler even claimed to accept and associate with Christianity (as do many), but his works clearly reveal otherwise.  

James 2:14-25

Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[a] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.


Hitler may have claimed Christianity, but he clearly lived in opposition of Christ.  In the end, the Lord knows the contents of our hearts.

Those who object to God tend to approach him with the notion of “why does God need”.   Once you begin forming opinions from that perspective you do so in error.   God needs nothing, but he certainly desires a relationship with us.  

Within scripture we anthropomorphize God so that his infinite, divine nature is relatable to our finite, human nature.

Yes, God’s nature is divine.  God expresses that divine nature in the form of three persons in a trinity:  Father, Son and Spirit.  The second person of that trinity – God the Son – entered into the world and became incarnate.  His nature then became a dual nature in that he is both divine and human.  Christianity defines this as the hypostatic union.    Jesus Christ became flesh and dwelt among man so that we may truly understand and relate to the God we serve.

What is the divine jealousy of God?  Is it the petty jealousy expressed in mankind in which we covet those things that don’t belong to us?  No.  God is jealous for all that belongs to him and there’s nothing wrong with that.  Like a husband that becomes jealous of another man that makes advances upon his wife.  That type of jealousy is completely appropriate.

God’s foreknowledge, sovereignty and will for our lives is fully compatible with our ability to choose.  

Foreknowledge does not mean the choices have been made for us.  Many posit that God could create any number of universes to satisfy a specific circumstance, but I believe he has created the perfect universe already using his foreknowledge of our future free choices.  In doing so he provided the opportunity for his own creation to eliminate evil and suffering via their choice for Jesus Christ.  He fashioned the world in such a way that our choices would be upheld and he didn't force us to choose one way or another (one exception in that we do have to choose whether to accept or reject God).  Yes, his foreknowledge comes before the actual free choices we make, but his creation was contingent upon those future free choices and was perfectly fashioned to uphold them.  He allowed the contingency and therefore remains sovereign.  When one considers God's predetermined will we should also consider whether or not his will has also been pre-executed.  If that were the case then the biblical notion of free will would be meaningless as we are merely puppets.  He knows the outcome, but he allows events to play out however based upon our choices.  Within that period of choices he desires to guide and direct us back to his will so that our choices – our will – align with his will for our lives.    

Why did God “drown the world”?  Was it a capricious action?  What type of world was drowned?  Simply put, the whole of mankind was reprobate and had fully rejected God.  He handed down judgment upon the entirety of the world that was completely shrouded in evil and heinous behavior.  How many generations of children would continue to be corrupted if he allowed this behavior to persist?  How many people would be forever separated from his goodness?     It also displayed for future generations the reality of his law and the repercussions for ignoring that law.  God never interfered in their lives, but when the all hope for goodness had been eliminated he pronounced judgment upon the reprobate world and saved the small remnant of his people that remained.  The world wasn’t restarted….it continued on.  Although the reprobate population then entered eternity and remained separated from God as they had chosen to be.    

Why would you want a fully evil and hopeless population to continue on?


jesus, the mental acrobatics you have to do is astounding. The hitler argument you just made is the no true scotsman fallacy, i need not say more on that.

The last comment on a fully evil and hopeless population is funny also. So the animals were evil? how can something be evil without pre-meditation, is a tiger evil for killing it's prey? the babies were evil? add to the fact that he created these things already knowing the outcome and it's a home run for atheists. God creates man with free will, he doesn't like the choices made with said gift so decides to hit the tilt button. So man's only option is to love god because if we don't he will kill us all. God never even gave them a choice, more like an ultimatum.

I bet those babies thanked god for not allowing them to be corrupted with sin as the waves cast them against the rocks, oh lord thank you for sparing me. Sounds like god doesn't like the possible outcome of free will he can hit the reset button, kinda negates free will no?

How doesn't foreknowledge negate choice? the choice and outcome is already determined, the timing is all that is left.

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Re: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO KNOW THE SECRET OF LIFE?
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2014, 03:06:49 PM »
jesus, the mental acrobatics you have to do is astounding. The hitler argument you just made is the no true scotsman fallacy, i need not say more on that.

The last comment on a fully evil and hopeless population is funny also. So the animals were evil? how can something be evil without pre-meditation, is a tiger evil for killing it's prey? the babies were evil? add to the fact that he created these things already knowing the outcome and it's a home run for atheists. God creates man with free will, he doesn't like the choices made with said gift so decides to hit the tilt button. So man's only option is to love god because if we don't he will kill us all. God never even gave them a choice, more like an ultimatum.

I bet those babies thanked god for not allowing them to be corrupted with sin as the waves cast them against the rocks, oh lord thank you for sparing me. Sounds like god doesn't like the possible outcome of free will he can hit the reset button, kinda negates free will no?

How doesn't foreknowledge negate choice? the choice and outcome is already determined, the timing is all that is left.


There's no acrobatics required.  I'm just explaining my faith.  It's easy to write a few sentences of objections, it's another thing to then reply to the objections....more words are required of me.

No fallacy is committed....it's scripture, it's Christianity, it's the nature of being a believer in God.  Just read the scripture I posted.   All sorts of people claim to be Christian and so many fail to exhibit any qualities of Christ.  Their works do nothing to validate their supposed faith.  

Assigning a term to an argument doesn't negate a thing.  Folks invent "new logical fallacies" in order to have a reply in an argument.    I have no idea what that argument is, but it makes no difference.  Hitler clearly demonstrated he did not follow Christ no matter what religious affiliation he claimed.  That's all that's needed and it's foundation is outlined in the scripture provided.  

As I noted God pronounced judgement on a fully reprobate world.   God provided for Noah and the earth exactly what it needed to continue on.  Animals weren't punished.  Animals are without a soul...they don't offend God.  Some animals have some soulish qualities in that they're created to serve mankind via labor, food, sacrifice, clothing, etc.....  Man was given dominion over the earth, but ultimately creation and all there is belongs to God.

I've often considered that we have no idea whether or not children of a reprobate society experienced any pain during death via God's judgment.....we simply don't know.  Could God have provided a painless death?  Absolutely.  Do we know this?  We do not.  What we do know is that those same children exited this life and entered into God's kingdom in eternity.  We also know that God is just and as such it's feasible they experienced no pain.  You have no concept of eternity or the justice and mercy of God so all you see is death and pain.  Had those same babies and children continued on into adulthood they would've adopted the same reprobate behavior, engaged in the same sin, rejected God just like the previous generations and would've been separated from God.  

I fully explained foreknowledge, choice, the will of God, etc.....just reread what I wrote.  Foreknowledge is knowledge, not predetermined actions set in motion that force us to do one thing or another.  Me rewriting all this won't change my answer.  I've answered this same objection at least two dozen times in the past.  To be fair I realize you did not ask this of me in those two dozen instances, but I often grow weary of repeating things over and over on these boards so please forgive me.