Author Topic: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs  (Read 4565 times)

OzmO

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Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« on: December 09, 2010, 03:38:05 PM »
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/12/why_liberals_dont_like_the_tax.html


CAP's Michael Linden produced a nice chart showing why the tax deal is tough for liberals to swallow:


The red and blue on the chart are a bit confusing, so read it closely: On the left, you're seeing the amount of money Obama is spending on tax cuts for individuals (so the total doesn't include business tax cuts) next to the number of people who will benefit. On the right, you're seeing the same for the Republicans.

Obama's got 156 million people splitting $214 billion in tax cuts and benefits. The GOP's got 4 million people splitting $133 billion in tax cuts. On a per-person level, the GOP's tax cuts are much larger. An individual billionaire is getting a far better deal than an individual unemployed American. And that's galling. The problem is that to take the money from the billionaire means to also take the money from the unemployed individual. Actually, taking the money from the billionaire means taking the money from a lot of unemployed Americans.

To see how much, behold the return of the "snowman" graph, now updated to compare the original Obama plan, the original Republican plan and the compromise (click on the chart to enlarge it). All groups are getting more under this framework, but on an individual level, the wealthy are getting much, much more. The question, at the end of the day, is whether stopping them from getting it is worth cutting benefits for the unemployed, and tax cuts for middle-income Americans, and the Earned Income Tax Credit. I don't think it is, and that's particularly true because it's not, to me, about the size of the transfer so much as the possibility for stimulus. But given the level of inequality in this country, and the potential that deficit reduction deals won't be worked out by a progressive congress, I see how you could come down on the other side:


Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 03:40:27 PM »
Its keeping the rates the same. 

How can you give people who dont pay much to begin with a lot of benefits? 

George Whorewell

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 04:27:29 PM »
Thank you--- 333

Nothing is changing. We are just keeping shit exactly the same as its been for 10 years. That's why this is such a farce. These aren't tax cuts. Nothing is being cut. Things are just remaining status quo so that there is more certainity among members of the business community and companies start hiring again.

This isn't a stimulus. This isn't a comprimise. These aren't tax cuts. If they were, Obama and the dems would owe the public a huge apology for lying over the last decade.

Kazan

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 05:35:02 PM »
Actually liberals think all the money any of us earn actually belongs to them and we should be damn glad they let us keep as much as they do.
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loco

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2010, 04:39:53 AM »
I once heard somebody say that Congress should get 11 month vacations.  The longer they are on vacation, the more things stay the same and the less they hurt us.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 04:55:05 AM »
Yup.

Straw Man

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2010, 08:43:03 AM »
Since people say that nothing is changing then how exactly will it help the economy or job market

btw - what's also not changing is that these tax cuts are not paid for so we'll just keep adding to the debt




Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2010, 08:45:42 AM »
Since people say that nothing is changing then how exactly will it help the economy or job market

btw - what's also not changing is that these tax cuts are not paid for so we'll just keep adding to the debt





Again - we have had these rates for 10 years.    You are assuming that the govt will get a certain degree of revenue which is pure speculation at best. 


We have a massive spendng problem,.not a revenue problem. 

Straw Man

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 09:59:36 AM »
Again - we have had these rates for 10 years.    You are assuming that the govt will get a certain degree of revenue which is pure speculation at best. 


We have a massive spendng problem,.not a revenue problem. 

I'm not speculating anything

they added to the deficit for the last ten years and they will add to the deficit going forward

I'm questioning how they are going to help the economy when they haven't helped for the last ten years.
 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 10:03:05 AM »
I'm not speculating anything

they added to the deficit for the last ten years and they will add to the deficit going forward

I'm questioning how they are going to help the economy when they haven't helped for the last ten years.
 

Bro - are you really that freaking dense?   Seriously? 

The issue is that after the tax cuts we spent massiviley fr two wars and other domestic shit, BUT REVENUES STILL INCRASED TO TE FEDRAL GVT. 




Geez dude - WTF is wrong with you? 

Straw Man

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2010, 10:22:02 AM »
Bro - are you really that freaking dense?   Seriously? 

The issue is that after the tax cuts we spent massiviley fr two wars and other domestic shit, BUT REVENUES STILL INCRASED TO TE FEDRAL GVT. 

Geez dude - WTF is wrong with you? 

you're claiming the tax cuts created more tax revenue

source?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 10:36:12 AM »
you're claiming the tax cuts created more tax revenue

source?

I'm stating it as a matter of fact.

Again - the issue is spending - not taxes.     

tonymctones

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 10:44:31 AM »
I'm not speculating anything

they added to the deficit for the last ten years and they will add to the deficit going forward

I'm questioning how they are going to help the economy when they haven't helped for the last ten years.
 
tax cuts dont add anything you moron...

by your logic by not taxing us 100% we are adding to the deficit...

its spending....

AGAIN HOW DOES GIVING THE GOVT MORE MONEY AND TAKING IT AWAY FROM THE CITIZENS HELP THE ECONOMY?

you still havent answered that although I know why you keep avoiding it  ;)

MB

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 12:07:01 PM »
I'm not speculating anything

they added to the deficit for the last ten years and they will add to the deficit going forward

I'm questioning how they are going to help the economy when they haven't helped for the last ten years.
 

We have a spending problem, not a revenue problem.  The best solution is to cut taxes another 25% and cut spending 50%.  That's something we've never tried. 

dario73

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 12:30:12 PM »
tax cuts dont add anything you moron...

by your logic by not taxing us 100% we are adding to the deficit...

This can't be stated any clearer.  Do you understand, Straw Man? Or should we draw you little pictures?

tu_holmes

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 12:59:42 PM »
Neither taxing or cutting taxes helps the economy.

They're both red herrings... True, the problem is the spend issue, which NEITHER SIDE will fucking stop.

Why are you guys nut huggers on blue or red? It's asinine. Guaranteed ain't no money getting saved anywhere anytime.

Keep on arguing amongst yourselves because that's exactly what they want.

tonymctones

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 01:07:21 PM »
Neither taxing or cutting taxes helps the economy.

They're both red herrings... True, the problem is the spend issue, which NEITHER SIDE will fucking stop.

Why are you guys nut huggers on blue or red? It's asinine. Guaranteed ain't no money getting saved anywhere anytime.

Keep on arguing amongst yourselves because that's exactly what they want.
Disagreed letting ppl keep more of their money will have a much more beneficial impact than taxing them more...


tu_holmes

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 01:08:44 PM »
Disagreed letting ppl keep more of their money will have a much more beneficial impact than taxing them more...



Disagree all you want, but in the past 10 years, I haven't seen some beneficial impact since the tax cuts began.

Have you?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 01:12:36 PM »
The problem is that we did not curtail spending and many tax breaks were offset buy the effects of a weak dollar policy which drove up  mny item like oil, food, commodities, as well as pushed people into homes and drove those prices up.


Not to mention tax increases at the state level.   

tu_holmes

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 01:15:20 PM »
The problem is that we did not curtail spending and many tax breaks were offset buy the effects of a weak dollar policy which drove up  mny item like oil, food, commodities, as well as pushed people into homes and drove those prices up.


Not to mention tax increases at the state level.   

No point in going down this road again with commodities 3333. As a matter of fact I was watching Fox Business the other day and Cavuto had a guy on who was agreeing that a lot of the increase is due to false means... People controlling the system... Fraud if you will.

I believe he said 20% is not unrealistic as a "guess".

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
No point in going down this road again with commodities 3333. As a matter of fact I was watching Fox Business the other day and Cavuto had a guy on who was agreeing that a lot of the increase is due to false means... People controlling the system... Fraud if you will.

I believe he said 20% is not unrealistic as a "guess".

I was referring to may other factors that were in th economy which offset the benefit of the tax cuts. 

Problem is that raising peoples' taxes now is insane.  Even Keynes would be against this. 

tu_holmes

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 01:19:58 PM »
I was referring to may other factors that were in th economy which offset the benefit of the tax cuts. 

Problem is that raising peoples' taxes now is insane.  Even Keynes would be against this. 

I'm not saying I disagree... I'm saying that the problem really isn't taxes... It's what gets done with the money after.

tonymctones

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 01:21:38 PM »
Disagree all you want, but in the past 10 years, I haven't seen some beneficial impact since the tax cuts began.

Have you?
LOL so youre in the camp with obama blaming the recession on tax cuts?

what was going to happen, was going to happen no matter the tax rates, sorry but youre argument hold no water...I could by the same token say the last 10 years would have been worse if the tax cuts werent there

Soul Crusher

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 01:22:55 PM »
I'm not saying I disagree... I'm saying that the problem really isn't taxes... It's what gets done with the money after.

Of course.    But to me, its the spending side that is the main issue, not the tax side.   We simply can't afford out present obligations and even if we raied taxes, if won solve anything because our spending is so enormous.    


tu_holmes

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Re: Why liberals don't like the tax cut deal -- in graphs
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 01:23:22 PM »
LOL so youre in the camp with obama blaming the recession on tax cuts?

what was going to happen, was going to happen no matter the tax rates, sorry but youre argument hold no water...I could by the same token say the last 10 years would have been worse if the tax cuts werent there

I'm not "blaming" I'm simply saying they didn't help.

This isn't an Obama camp thing... This is a fact of history.

Taxes were cut and spending went up... The government went from surplus to shortfall.

Is anything I'm saying incorrect?