Understanding Atheism

[MCWAY]

complete non-sequitor by the way. It does not follow that because a god does not exist then other sentient beings do not and there is no logical reason why somewhere in the universe that is as vast as ours there exists a species that are more sentient. Atheism says nothing about the existence of other beings just a theistic god. No evidence exists for god, hence the term faith. Faith is an irrational belief without evidence, it is by definition irrational. I am a rationalist who can admit when i do not have all the answers unlike the faithful.

Ummmm...did you miss the part where I asked if man isn't the most "self aware" being in existence (as Reeves said), THEN WHO IS?

Atheism purports that there is no higher being than man, because that would open the possibility of man answering to that being (i.e. answering to a supernatural deity).

And, contrary to your claim, faith is HARDLY irrational belief without evidence. People believe in what God can do, based on what He has done, in the past. Ask people who tithe, who've been healed (or had family members healed) of ailments.

They believe that God will bless them today, because HE HAS blessed others who have been faithful in the past.

[lovemonkey]

Ummmm...did you miss the part where I asked if man isn't the most "self aware" being in existence (as Reeves said), THEN WHO IS?

Atheism purports that there is no higher being than man, because that would open the possibility of man answering to that being (i.e. answering to a supernatural deity).

And, contrary to your claim, faith is HARDLY irrational belief without evidence. People believe in what God can do, based on what He has done, in the past. Ask people who tithe, who've been healed (or had family members healed) of ailments.

They believe that God will bless them today, because HE HAS blessed others who have been faithful in the past.

I dare you to prove this. Your entire argument depends on your proving that statement.

[MCWAY]

I dare you to prove this. Your entire argument depends on your proving that statement.

Prove what? That people tithe and have been blessed as a result? (I'm one of them as are folks like Loco, Butterbean/STella, just to name a few).

[lovemonkey]

Prove what? That people tithe and have been blessed as a result? (I'm one of them as are folks like Loco, Butterbean/STella, just to name a few).

Prove a SINGLE case of someone being 'healed' by a supernatural deity. Just ONE.

[Butterbean]

Prove a SINGLE case of someone being 'healed' by a supernatural deity. Just ONE.

Of course, we as believers believe that all healings are ultimately because of a supernatural Deity....because we believe that God created us as we are, and our bodies, if cut, scraped, burned, broken etc can heal themselves (depending on the wound)...God created minds able to grasp, produce and administer healing medicines/surgeries, etc.  

But I assume you reject that and want something more like my friend's mother that was prayed over (she had some kind of female cancer) and when she went to the bathroom she said something black came out and at her next scan there was no cancer there.  But I don't think just someone saying that happened is probably acceptable "proof" to you, and in fact, for those that believe that that was cancer leaving her body, there is still no way to "prove" it really.  Someone could say, oh, she didn't have cancer to begin with or it was a mistaken diagnosis or whatever.

I guess I think that some people believe that miracles can happen and some don't.  Maybe they'll change their minds sometime, and maybe not.  



lovemonkey, from where do you think life on this planet came?  Do you embrace the theory that all life on earth evolved from the same organism?

[lovemonkey]

Of course, we as believers believe that all healings are ultimately because of a supernatural Deity....because we believe that God created us as we are, and our bodies, if cut, scraped, burned, broken etc can heal themselves (depending on the wound)...God created minds able to grasp, produce and administer healing medicines/surgeries, etc.  

But I assume you reject that and want something more like my friend's mother that was prayed over (she had some kind of female cancer) and when she went to the bathroom she said something black came out and at her next scan there was no cancer there.  But I don't think just someone saying that happened is probably acceptable "proof" to you, and in fact, for those that believe that that was cancer leaving her body, there is still no way to "prove" it really.  Someone could say, oh, she didn't have cancer to begin with or it was a mistaken diagnosis or whatever.

I guess I think that some people believe that miracles can happen and some don't.  Maybe they'll change their minds sometime, and maybe not.  



lovemonkey, from where do you think life on this planet came?  Do you embrace the theory that all life on earth evolved from the same organism?

What if someone claimed with 100% conviction, a conviction they'd bet their life on, that Vishnu cured their AIDS? You wouldn't believe it for a second no matter how strong their beliefs are... only way to change your mind would be to have scientific proofs presented to you(I hope!). You know for a fact that it's a billion times more likely that it's all in their head than there being a a god different than your own. That's the same problem I'm having with believing the claim that Jehovah/Yahweh/etc cured your friends illness, or worse, your friends friend  
Until you can prove it, it is ALL WORDS and honestly, very cliché.

The concept of miracles don't mix well with the blend of an 'all loving god' and the world we live in. Why would your god cure some spoiled westerner of their cancer while literally hundreds of thousands of children are left to merciless starvation every single day? If you believe in miracles, then you also believe that your God picks, by his/her own will, who to cure or help. The choice to not help those in the most dire need really says something about the deity in question.

How come that whenever a natural catastrophe strikes it's always "god works in mysterious ways" and when some baby is found a week later in the rubble of a collapsed building it's suddenly a "miracle"? Whoever says that got some nerve. It's evil-bent hypocrisy.

And also, if you want to argue that praying accelerates healing I'm sorry to say that there have been studies done where the opposite turned out to be true. I'm sure someone else mentioned them to you.

I do NOT to claim know where life came from, BUT there are a couple of theories that sound plausible to me. The fact that amino acids can take form very rapidly(literally within days/weeks) under the right conditions and that life seem to have sprung up in different places on earth during its early history suggests to me that it is not totally unbelievable that life originated from earth, by natural processes. But there is still a lot to be discovered and I'm looking forward to future scientific advancements that can take us closer to our earth as it was 4 billion years ago.

[Reeves]

One miracle I would really like to see is the conversion of a retard liberal becoming a genuine, sincere and law abiding/upholding, heterosexual Conservative.  It would have to be a famous liberal and as stated, the conversion would have to be genuine.  They would have to denounce liberal ideals on literally every topic, from sexuality to politics, religion and beyond. 

In a way it would not be unlike the conversion of Paul (formerly Saul) of Tarsus.  That would be miraculous indeed.

[doison]

cool story bro

[Butterbean]

And also, if you want to argue that praying accelerates healing I'm sorry to say that there have been studies done where the opposite turned out to be true. I'm sure someone else mentioned them to you.

Actually no, I've never heard this.  Can you link me to some studies please? 

[lovemonkey]

Actually no, I've never heard this.  Can you link me to some studies please?  

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer


By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: March 31, 2006

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

[loco]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer


By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: March 31, 2006

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The above study is flawed:

WebMD
Researchers Try to Test the Power of Prayer on Surgery Patients

Those who were certain they were being prayed for "had an unexpectedly high complication rate," Bethea says. "This aspect of awareness needs further study ... such a significant finding begs for more evaluation."

"The reality of this study is that the group they thought would do the best actually did worse," says Mitchell Krucoff, MD

However, stress could have been the cause, he says. "Think about it, the night before surgery they were told about the prayer therapy, then asked not to tell anyone. They were going into major heart surgery -- yet they knew something they could not mention to anyone."

"It's possible that knowledge about the prayer might have induced a form of performance anxiety in the patients, or made them feel doubtful about their outcome," Bethea says. "They may have wondered, 'Am I so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?'"

http://www.webmd.com/balance/guide/20070201/praying-for-health-study-stirs-debate

Their study has been criticized by other journal editors, the researchers admit. "A balanced study would have a Group 4 -- a group that knew they definitely weren't being prayed for," says Bethea. "We were concerned that would increase the patient's stress level."

Prayer's effect may be larger when people pray for themselves, says Benson. "It often breaks the train of everyday thought and invokes a relaxation response. We were not studying relaxation response in this study, but others studies have shown it to be beneficial."

http://www.webmd.com/balance/guide/20070201/praying-for-health-study-stirs-debate?page=2

[lovemonkey]

The above study is flawed:

WebMD
Researchers Try to Test the Power of Prayer on Surgery Patients

Those who were certain they were being prayed for "had an unexpectedly high complication rate," Bethea says. "This aspect of awareness needs further study ... such a significant finding begs for more evaluation."

"The reality of this study is that the group they thought would do the best actually did worse," says Mitchell Krucoff, MD

However, stress could have been the cause, he says. "Think about it, the night before surgery they were told about the prayer therapy, then asked not to tell anyone. They were going into major heart surgery -- yet they knew something they could not mention to anyone."

"It's possible that knowledge about the prayer might have induced a form of performance anxiety in the patients, or made them feel doubtful about their outcome," Bethea says. "They may have wondered, 'Am I so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?'"

http://www.webmd.com/balance/guide/20070201/praying-for-health-study-stirs-debate

Their study has been criticized by other journal editors, the researchers admit. "A balanced study would have a Group 4 -- a group that knew they definitely weren't being prayed for," says Bethea. "We were concerned that would increase the patient's stress level."

Prayer's effect may be larger when people pray for themselves, says Benson. "It often breaks the train of everyday thought and invokes a relaxation response. We were not studying relaxation response in this study, but others studies have shown it to be beneficial."

http://www.webmd.com/balance/guide/20070201/praying-for-health-study-stirs-debate?page=2

The whole concept of that study is pretty funky/flawed... but either way the conclusion was that prayers wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. In fact, you'd get the exact result you'd expect if there was no god, surprise surprise!

[loco]

The whole concept of that study is pretty funky/flawed... but either way the conclusion was that prayers wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. In fact, you'd get the exact result you'd expect if there was no god, surprise surprise!

I agree that this is very difficult to measure through scientific studies, but this obviously has value to modern medicine or else they wouldn't be spending the money, time and resources to study it.  This is only one of many studies conducted on the value of prayer in Health Care, and there are many more to come.

[lovemonkey]

I agree that this is very difficult to measure through scientific studies, but this obviously has value to modern medicine or else they wouldn't be spending the money, time and resources to study it.  This is only one of many studies conducted on the value of prayer in Health Care, and there are many more to come.

Given how religious america is overall it comes as no surprise that studies like these are conducted.. doesn't say anything about the validity of prayers though. If I'm not mistaken this particular study was funded by religious people.

[loco]

Given how religious america is overall it comes as no surprise that studies like these are conducted.. doesn't say anything about the validity of prayers though. If I'm not mistaken this particular study was funded by religious people.

Likewise, the study you posted says nothing about the invalidity of prayer.  That was my point.

[lovemonkey]

Likewise, the study you posted says nothing about the invalidity of prayer.  That was my point.

Given the nature of prayers(a supernatural request), the burden of proof is upon those who claim its existence. The results from these studies vary a bit and that is a bit intriguing, makes you wonder about placebo effect, stress levels in patients etc. But lets be real here, those are all natural factors within the realm of the natural world and there's absolutely no proof anywhere that some desert god by the name of Yahweh/Jehovah/whatever has anything to do with it.

[loco]

Given the nature of prayers(a supernatural request), the burden of proof is upon those who claim its existence. The results from these studies vary a bit and that is a bit intriguing, makes you wonder about placebo effect, stress levels in patients etc. But lets be real here, those are all natural factors within the realm of the natural world and there's absolutely no proof anywhere that some desert god by the name of Yahweh/Jehovah/whatever has anything to do with it.

Still, the study you posted does not prove the opposite.

I personally do not seek to prove something that is faith based.  I personally believe by faith in God, in prayer and in miracles, but I believe televangelists and faith healers are crooks who make a mockery of miracles to profit from gullible people. 

Miracles have their time and place and, except for very specific times in history and for a very specific purpose, they are not for public displays of power or for proof of anything.

[Butterbean]

Still, the study you posted does not prove the opposite.

I personally do not seek to prove something that is faith based.  I personally believe by faith in God, in prayer and in miracles, but I believe televangelists and faith healers are crooks who make a mockery of miracles to profit from gullible people. 

x2

[lovemonkey]

Miracles have their time and place and, except for very specific times in history and for a very specific purpose, they are not for public displays of power or for proof of anything.

...and of course you happen to know when something is a miracle and when it isn't? Otherwise you can't back up that statement... a statement that is basically just another wording for "god works in mysterious ways", "you can't perform a study on the work of god" etc. How convenient.

A very good time and place for a miracle would be right about NOW in many parts of Africa, Japan and so on.

[loco]

...and of course you happen know when something is a miracle and when it isn't? Otherwise you can't back up that statement... a statement that is basically just another wording for "god works in mysterious ways", "you can't perform a study on the work of god" etc. How convenient.

A very good time and place for a miracle would be right about NOW in many parts of Africa, Japan and so on.

No, a good time for public miracles was when Moses arrived in Egypt to lead Israel to The Promised Land.  

Another good time for public miracles was when Jesus started his ministry in Israel about 2,000 years ago.

These are in the Bible and I believe it by faith.

I can't prove to you anything about miracles, but I can prove it to myself.  About 24 years ago, I said a prayer to Jesus Christ and my life, my personality and character were changed forever.  I'm a miracle.  I have also witnessed many other people changed forever by Jesus Christ.

The next time for public miracles, I believe, will be when the Anti-Christ and The False Prophet show their face.  You and I, if we are still around, will witness many wonders and miracles performed by this false prophet who will deceive many people around the world, even atheists.

[lovemonkey]

No, a good time for public miracles was when Moses arrived in Egypt to lead Israel to The Promised Land.  

Another good time for public miracles was when Jesus started his ministry in Israel about 2,000 years ago.

These are in the Bible and I believe it by faith.

I can't prove to you anything about miracles, but I can prove it to myself.  About 24 years ago, I said a prayer to Jesus Christ and my life, my personality and character were changed forever(placebo is totally out of the question here? How would you know?).  I'm a miracle.  I have also witnessed many other people changed forever by Jesus Christ.

The next time for public miracles, I believe, will be when the Anti-Christ and The False Prophet show their face.  You and I, if we are still around, will witness many wonders and miracles performed by this false prophet who will deceive many people around the world, even atheists.

Well I guess that's where our opinions differ greatly. Not much else I can say, really.

[loco]

Well I guess that's where our opinions differ greatly. Not much else I can say, really.

So even if you yourself experience a miracle or witness one, you will always dismiss it as a placebo effect.  To each its own!

[lovemonkey]

So even if you yourself experience a miracle or witness one, you will always dismiss it as a placebo effect.  To each its own!

What's more likely here... a suspension of the laws of nature(not one single case this happening has ever been proved, otherwise they wouldn't be laws) or that my brain goes haywire?

Do you fully understand the consequences of your brain dictating your sense of reality? Reality is whatever your brain tells you, and it is most definitely beyond your control. If your brain thinks there's a pink unicorn dancing with monkeys made out of styrofoam right in front of you, then that is what you will believe. There's no outer 'you' to keep your brain in check.

[loco]

What's more likely here... a suspension of the laws of nature(not one single case this happening has ever been proved, otherwise they wouldn't be laws) or that my brain goes haywire?

Do you fully understand the consequences of your brain dictating your sense of reality? Reality is whatever your brain tells you, and it is most definitely beyond your control. If your brain thinks there's a pink unicorn dancing with monkeys made out of styrofoam right in front of you, then that is what you will believe. There's no outer 'you' to keep your brain in check.

Maybe you are not really sitting there typing something on your computer in response to my post.   Maybe I don't exist.  Maybe you are a 95 year old man, suffering from dementia or some other mental decease, sitting in a nursing home or mental institution, thinking up all this stuff.   

[lovemonkey]

Maybe you are not really sitting there typing something on your computer in response to my post.   Maybe I don't exist.  Maybe you are a 95 year old man, suffering from dementia or some other mental decease, sitting in a nursing home or mental institution, thinking up all this stuff.   

Hey, it's fully possible but very unlikely.

You're not very familiar with philosophy of science, are you?