Author Topic: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges  (Read 2054 times)

blacken700

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Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« on: October 19, 2011, 07:18:39 AM »

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2011, 07:35:49 AM »
Cain doesn't even understand "his own" plan.

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2011, 08:23:36 AM »
Sorry - Cain is dead right on this.   I dont like the idea of a sales tax wo a repeal of 16th amendment, but math wise - his plan works. 


And ron paul saying its good that a lot of people paying nothing?  WTF is that all about?  The reason I support a national sales tax and nothing else is because everyone pays. 

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2011, 08:35:24 AM »
Sorry - Cain is dead right on this.   I dont like the idea of a sales tax wo a repeal of 16th amendment, but math wise - his plan works


And ron paul saying its good that a lot of people paying nothing?  WTF is that all about?  The reason I support a national sales tax and nothing else is because everyone pays. 

we know a flat tax will result in much less income tax being paid by wealthy people while low and middle income earner will pay a bit more

there is also good reason to suspect that a national sales tax will result in LOWER consumer spending which will hurt the economy

net effect will be overall lower tax revenue and a huge drag on an economy that is highly depedent on consumer spending

the entire plan is a simplistic gimmick which explains it's appeal to simple minded people

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2011, 08:38:38 AM »
we know a flat tax will result in much less income tax being paid by wealthy people while low and middle income earner will pay a bit more

there is also good reason to suspect that a national sales tax will result in LOWER consumer spending which will hurt the economy

net effect will be overall lower tax revenue and a huge drag on an economy that is highly depedent on consumer spending

the entire plan is a simplistic gimmick which explains it's appeal to simple minded people



No shit!

We need more producers and savers, not more consumers and borrowers!


We need to reward work and production, and borrowing and consumption.  consumption is supposed to be off of what you produce, not what you can borrow or steal from other taxpayers.   

And the govt does not need more $ $ $!     

 

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2011, 08:47:27 AM »


No shit!

We need more producers and savers, not more consumers and borrowers!


We need to reward work and production, and borrowing and consumption.  consumption is supposed to be off of what you produce, not what you can borrow or steal from other taxpayers.   

And the govt does not need more $ $ $!     

 

pretty funny given that fact that our current tax system taxes work (WAGES) much higher than income from investments (Money making Money)

if you think we reward work in this country you don't understand how the tax system works

if you can't comprehend how a 9% national sales tax would be a huge kick in the balls to our economy then there is no point in talking any further on the subject

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 08:50:12 AM »
pretty funny given that fact that our current tax system taxes work (WAGES) much higher than income from investments (Money making Money)

if you think we reward work in this country you don't understand how the tax system works

if you can't comprehend how a 9% national sales tax would be a huge kick in the balls to our economy then there is no point in talking any further on the subject


Hey moron - Cain is doing away with the 15% payroll tax taken out of wages for all employees!


So they get to choose what to spend money on or save it.

   

 

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 08:59:51 AM »

Hey moron - Cain is doing away with the 15% payroll tax taken out of wages for all employees!

So they get to choose what to spend money on or save it.

 

Hey Moron - I guess that means he intends to get rid of social security too

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2011, 09:07:50 AM »
Hey Moron - I guess that means he intends to get rid of social security too


No - the 9% applies to all wages - so someone making 3 million a year pays 9% on the whole 3 million, whereas now - ss deductions only go up to what 106k? 


Math wise his plan works - its just that I dont trust the criminals in DC to not up this tax asap. 

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 09:11:19 AM »

No - the 9% applies to all wages - so someone making 3 million a year pays 9% on the whole 3 million, whereas now - ss deductions only go up to what 106k? 


Math wise his plan works - its just that I dont trust the criminals in DC to not up this tax asap. 


you can't say that unless you actually show some math

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2011, 04:56:42 PM »
Sorry - Cain is dead right on this.   I dont like the idea of a sales tax wo a repeal of 16th amendment, but math wise - his plan works. 


And ron paul saying its good that a lot of people paying nothing?  WTF is that all about?  The reason I support a national sales tax and nothing else is because everyone pays. 



It's called getting to keep what you earned.

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 06:08:41 AM »
Herman Cain's Hidden Nine(Peter Schiff on 9-9-9, full article post)
Safe haven /Europacific Capital ^ | Oct 18, 2011 | Peter Schiff




Herman Cain has been gaining much traction with his 9-9-9 Plan, a bold proposal to replace our dysfunctional tax code with what could be a simpler, less invasive, and more economically stimulative alternative. While I don't agree with the full spectrum of Mr. Cain's policy choices, I applaud his courage on the tax front. Judging by his rising poll numbers, this appreciation is widely shared. However, the plan has deep flaws, the most glaring of which is its creation of a hidden payroll tax which represents a fourth “nine.” This serious pitfall has been unmentioned by Mr. Cain and overlooked by those who have analyzed his plan.


Cain would replace the current system of income and payroll taxes with a 9% flat-rate personal income tax, a 9% corporate tax, and a 9% national sales tax. Great idea. Such a system would unburden businesses, provide a tax cut for most Americans, and shift taxation to consumption and away from income generation. This is exactly what our economy needs. But unlike our current corporate tax system, the plan eliminates the deductibility of wages and salaries from corporate income. The net effect is the creation of a brand new 9% tax on wages. When this fourth 9 falls from Cain's sleeve, many of his opponents will likely accuse him of cheating.


Much of the plan's virtue lies in its elimination of Social Security and Medicare taxes (payroll taxes) that fall heaviest on lower income workers. This includes the 6.2% Social Security tax and the 1.5% Medicare tax paid directly by the worker. But it also includes the 6.2% and 1.5% portions paid indirectly by workers through their employers. Payroll taxes are, in reality, a cost of employment. From the employer's perspective these costs are part of the wage package. Absent these taxes, employers could raise wages by an equivalent amount without raising labor costs. Inclusive of this portion, payroll taxes currently cost workers 15.4% of their wages.


The Cain plan scraps this tax. But the elimination of wage deductibility from corporate taxes replaces it with a 9% payroll tax. Therefore a more honest name for Cain's proposal is the 9-9-9-9 plan. The forth nine changes everything.


Cain admits that the 9% sales tax would fall heaviest on the poor, but he claims that the elimination of the payroll tax would more than compensate. But when the hidden 9% payroll tax is factored in, more than 50% of workers who currently pay an average income tax rate of just 3% would see a huge tax hike, from 18.4% (former payroll tax plus income tax) to 27%: 9% payroll tax, 9% income tax and 9% consumption tax (poorer worker generally spend all income).


On the other hand, high income tax payers get a huge break. Not counting the consumption tax, the 9-9-9 plan reduces the highest marginal tax rate from 38% (35% income tax and 3% payroll tax - on income over $105,000) to just 18% (9% income tax plus 9% payroll). For the self-employed, who can transform their wages into dividends (that are deductible business expenses under the 9-9-9 plan), the rate would fall to just 9% (all income tax, no payroll or business tax). Of course, in either case, the 9% sales tax will apply to spending, but even if 100% of earnings are spent (which is generally not true of high earners) the top rate would still top out at only 27% for the highest salaried employees and just 18% for the self-employed. In essence, tax cuts for the rich are paid for with tax hikes on the poor and middle class. If these aspects were widely known the plan would become a political dead letter.


Even with its flaws, the 9-9-9-9 plan would create an economic windfall by lowering the top corporate rate to 9% from 50% (35% at the corporate level and 15% on dividends taxed at the individual level), and simplifying the tax code to reduce unnecessary compliance costs and the economically inefficient behavior that is created by perverse tax incentives. These changes alone will make America far more globally competitive. Also by taxing individuals based more on what they spend rather than on what they earn, the plan will encourage more savings (which is a key ingredient for economic growth). As a result, the economy will grow faster, generate greater output of goods and services, and create more jobs.


The problem for Herman Cain is that unless he slashes government expenditures, his pro-growth tax structure will inevitably shift more of the tax burden to low and moderate-income people. The only way to combine tax reform with tax reductions for most taxpayers is to shrink government to a more manageable scale.


The size of the tax increases required to keep Cain's 9-9-9-9 plan revenue neutral demonstrates just how high a percentage of our current taxes are being paid by affluent taxpayers. Couples making more than $250,000 and individuals making more than $125,000 only constitute about 3% of taxpayers but pay almost half of all taxes. Any policy that cuts their taxes will inflict a disproportional hit on government revenue.


Contrary to the rhetoric emanating from the American left, the “rich” are currently paying a lot more than “their fair share.” It is only a handful of mega-rich, those whose entire incomes are derived from dividends and capital gains, rather than salaries or business profits, who have the ability to pay lower tax rates than some members of the middle class. The left knows this but continues to build their “free loading millionaire” straw man because it makes good politics.


In the final analysis, if Cain really wants a 9-9-9 plan that doesn't raise taxes he needs to remove the hidden 9% payroll tax. However, the only way this could be done, without blowing an even bigger hole in the federal deficit, is to combine his plan with significant spending cuts. If he can pull that off, three nines may be a winning hand after all.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So basically - even Schiff likes the 9 9 9 plan so long as it it tweaked by allowing deductability of wages for corps and more spending cuts.   

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 08:57:46 PM »
Herman Cain's Hidden Nine(Peter Schiff on 9-9-9, full article post)
Safe haven /Europacific Capital ^ | Oct 18, 2011 | Peter Schiff




Herman Cain has been gaining much traction with his 9-9-9 Plan, a bold proposal to replace our dysfunctional tax code with what could be a simpler, less invasive, and more economically stimulative alternative. While I don't agree with the full spectrum of Mr. Cain's policy choices, I applaud his courage on the tax front. Judging by his rising poll numbers, this appreciation is widely shared. However, the plan has deep flaws, the most glaring of which is its creation of a hidden payroll tax which represents a fourth “nine.” This serious pitfall has been unmentioned by Mr. Cain and overlooked by those who have analyzed his plan.


Cain would replace the current system of income and payroll taxes with a 9% flat-rate personal income tax, a 9% corporate tax, and a 9% national sales tax. Great idea. Such a system would unburden businesses, provide a tax cut for most Americans, and shift taxation to consumption and away from income generation. This is exactly what our economy needs. But unlike our current corporate tax system, the plan eliminates the deductibility of wages and salaries from corporate income. The net effect is the creation of a brand new 9% tax on wages. When this fourth 9 falls from Cain's sleeve, many of his opponents will likely accuse him of cheating.


Much of the plan's virtue lies in its elimination of Social Security and Medicare taxes (payroll taxes) that fall heaviest on lower income workers. This includes the 6.2% Social Security tax and the 1.5% Medicare tax paid directly by the worker. But it also includes the 6.2% and 1.5% portions paid indirectly by workers through their employers. Payroll taxes are, in reality, a cost of employment. From the employer's perspective these costs are part of the wage package. Absent these taxes, employers could raise wages by an equivalent amount without raising labor costs. Inclusive of this portion, payroll taxes currently cost workers 15.4% of their wages.


The Cain plan scraps this tax. But the elimination of wage deductibility from corporate taxes replaces it with a 9% payroll tax. Therefore a more honest name for Cain's proposal is the 9-9-9-9 plan. The forth nine changes everything.


Cain admits that the 9% sales tax would fall heaviest on the poor, but he claims that the elimination of the payroll tax would more than compensate. But when the hidden 9% payroll tax is factored in, more than 50% of workers who currently pay an average income tax rate of just 3% would see a huge tax hike, from 18.4% (former payroll tax plus income tax) to 27%: 9% payroll tax, 9% income tax and 9% consumption tax (poorer worker generally spend all income).


On the other hand, high income tax payers get a huge break. Not counting the consumption tax, the 9-9-9 plan reduces the highest marginal tax rate from 38% (35% income tax and 3% payroll tax - on income over $105,000) to just 18% (9% income tax plus 9% payroll). For the self-employed, who can transform their wages into dividends (that are deductible business expenses under the 9-9-9 plan), the rate would fall to just 9% (all income tax, no payroll or business tax). Of course, in either case, the 9% sales tax will apply to spending, but even if 100% of earnings are spent (which is generally not true of high earners) the top rate would still top out at only 27% for the highest salaried employees and just 18% for the self-employed. In essence, tax cuts for the rich are paid for with tax hikes on the poor and middle class. If these aspects were widely known the plan would become a political dead letter.


Even with its flaws, the 9-9-9-9 plan would create an economic windfall by lowering the top corporate rate to 9% from 50% (35% at the corporate level and 15% on dividends taxed at the individual level), and simplifying the tax code to reduce unnecessary compliance costs and the economically inefficient behavior that is created by perverse tax incentives. These changes alone will make America far more globally competitive. Also by taxing individuals based more on what they spend rather than on what they earn, the plan will encourage more savings (which is a key ingredient for economic growth). As a result, the economy will grow faster, generate greater output of goods and services, and create more jobs.


The problem for Herman Cain is that unless he slashes government expenditures, his pro-growth tax structure will inevitably shift more of the tax burden to low and moderate-income people. The only way to combine tax reform with tax reductions for most taxpayers is to shrink government to a more manageable scale.


The size of the tax increases required to keep Cain's 9-9-9-9 plan revenue neutral demonstrates just how high a percentage of our current taxes are being paid by affluent taxpayers. Couples making more than $250,000 and individuals making more than $125,000 only constitute about 3% of taxpayers but pay almost half of all taxes. Any policy that cuts their taxes will inflict a disproportional hit on government revenue.


Contrary to the rhetoric emanating from the American left, the “rich” are currently paying a lot more than “their fair share.” It is only a handful of mega-rich, those whose entire incomes are derived from dividends and capital gains, rather than salaries or business profits, who have the ability to pay lower tax rates than some members of the middle class. The left knows this but continues to build their “free loading millionaire” straw man because it makes good politics.


In the final analysis, if Cain really wants a 9-9-9 plan that doesn't raise taxes he needs to remove the hidden 9% payroll tax. However, the only way this could be done, without blowing an even bigger hole in the federal deficit, is to combine his plan with significant spending cuts. If he can pull that off, three nines may be a winning hand after all.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So basically - even Schiff likes the 9 9 9 plan so long as it it tweaked by allowing deductability of wages for corps and more spending cuts.   

Maybe if you fall into one the "empowerment zones" things will work out for you.  ::) I watched a video where he was much more critical of it, I'll see if I can find it.

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Re: Koch Plant Cain Spins 999 Plan, Apples and Oranges
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 06:42:24 AM »
he's the 'frontrunner' and just about no major repubs are coming out in defense of his plan.

romney is going to probably win in Iowa, NH, and everywhere else.

his plan all along was to sit out iowa... now he's getting confident and going there... everyone just fig'd it'd be bachmann vs perry there.  Now, they're both single digits?