Ron Paul is NOT Anti-Israel - drinkingwithbob

[howardroark]

Howard if you happy to be associated with far left wing nuts, when you vote for RP be my guest. We do not agree on this or anything else as regards American foreign policy.

You're the one who believes in a far-left foreign policy. The US spent over $1.5 trillion on keeping oil prices down, and yet they have gone up. That sounds like a failed socialistic policy to me.

Absolutely naive.  He's about the only person on either side of the aisle, outside of that idiot Kucinich, who thinks if we just leave Iran alone and let them get nukes they will play nice and not attack anyone.  If he actually educated himself on what drives radical Islam, he'd know that boots on the ground is only a part of the reason why they hate us.  We could pull every Soldier out of the region and they'd still be trying to kill us.  His views are dangerous.  He should not be in charge of the military.

And no life is wasted.  Every single one of them volunteered to serve, and many volunteered while we were at war. 

If you actually educated yourself about the Islamic world, you'd realize that hardly anyone wants to blow themselves up over a country halfway across the world allowing women in the workplace. Honestly, your worldview is downright laughable. Don't you think that if THAT was the reason why they really hated us, that they would focus their attacks on countries with a large alienated Muslim minority, such as France, Sweden, and Germany (how many of the 9/11 attackers were from Germany anyway?), instead of focusing on the two countries that have intervened in the Middle East the most - the US and the UK?

[Dos Equis]

You're the one who believes in a far-left foreign policy. The US spent over $1.5 trillion on keeping oil prices down, and yet they have gone up. That sounds like a failed socialistic policy to me.

If you actually educated yourself about the Islamic world, you'd realize that hardly anyone wants to blow themselves up over a country halfway across the world allowing women in the workplace. Honestly, your worldview is downright laughable. Don't you think that if THAT was the reason why they really hated us, that they would focus their attacks on countries with a large alienated Muslim minority, such as France, Sweden, and Germany (how many of the 9/11 attackers were from Germany anyway?), instead of focusing on the two countries that have intervened in the Middle East the most - the US and the UK?

I have educated myself about the Islamic world.  Quite a bit actually.  Sounds like you haven't.  I'm also pretty comfortable with my worldview.  But what we're talking about is Ron Paul's worldview.  Not mine.  Or yours. 

 

[howardroark]

I have educated myself about the Islamic world.  Quite a bit actually.  Sounds like you haven't.  I'm also pretty comfortable with my worldview.  But what we're talking about is Ron Paul's worldview.  Not mine.  Or yours. 

 

So YOU think that Ron Paul's worldview is naive because he thinks that if the US government weren't involved in imperialistic ventures in the Middle East, then we wouldn't have been attacked on 9/11. You disagree with him, because you think that the Muslim terrorists hate us because we have freedoms that they don't have... that's why they left other countries with freedoms like ours (i.e. Germany) in order to bomb us, right? And that's why the world's Muslim terrorist attacks have been focused on the US and the UK, but not on any other Western country with expansive freedoms, right?

[howardroark]

These people left Germany, a country with more social liberties than the United States, in order to attack the United States for being too free, right??

[Dos Equis]

So YOU think that Ron Paul's worldview is naive because he thinks that if the US government weren't involved in imperialistic ventures in the Middle East, then we wouldn't have been attacked on 9/11. You disagree with him, because you think that the Muslim terrorists hate us because we have freedoms that they don't have... that's why they left other countries with freedoms like ours (i.e. Germany) in order to bomb us, right? And that's why the world's Muslim terrorist attacks have been focused on the US and the UK, but not on any other Western country with expansive freedoms, right?

We have not been involved in "imperialistic ventures," so the entire premise is dumb.  

[howardroark]

We have not been involved in "imperialistic ventures," so the entire premise is dumb.  

Propping up Muslim oil tycoons as tyrants in the Islamic world is not imperialistic?

[howardroark]

Open your eyes people...

Pentagon says that Iran is seeking nukes in order to deter invasion - and also that Iran doesn't have the logistical capability to bomb much beyond its borders or confront regional powers such as Turkey and Israel. http://milwaukeestory.com/index.php/2011/12/19/pentagon-says-iran-concerned-primarily-with-deterring-an-attack-344/

[howardroark]

Also, Beach Bum, do you care to explain why Russia has also been a major target of Muslim terrorist attacks? It seems that if Islamic terrorists were concerned more about attacking free people, they'd ignore Russia and the United States in favor of countries like Sweden or Portugal, where same-sex marriage is legal. But instead, they target countries that are viewed as foreign oppressors by Muslims: Russia in Chechnya, and the US and the UK for their support of dictators in the Muslim world (e.g. the Shah, the Saudi monarchy, Musharraf, Hosni Mubarak before we turned our backs on him).

[Dos Equis]

Also, Beach Bum, do you care to explain why Russia has also been a major target of Muslim terrorist attacks? It seems that if Islamic terrorists were concerned more about attacking free people, they'd ignore Russia and the United States in favor of countries like Sweden or Portugal, where same-sex marriage is legal. But instead, they target countries that are viewed as foreign oppressors by Muslims: Russia in Chechnya, and the US and the UK for their support of dictators in the Muslim world (e.g. the Shah, the Saudi monarchy, Musharraf, Hosni Mubarak before we turned our backs on him).

No, I don't care to explain it, because I don't know why they have have attacked Russia (assuming that is true).  Never thought about it.  And I really don't care.  What I have studied is why they want to kill Americans. 

[howardroark]

No, I don't care to explain it, because I don't know why they have have attacked Russia (assuming that is true).  Never thought about it.  And I really don't care.  What I have studied is why they want to kill Americans. 

You're not even aware of the terrorist attacks on Russia yet you claim to know about the motivations of the same group of people who attacked the United States?

Russia has been attacked repeatedly by Muslim terrorists because of their actions in Chechnya...

REGARDLESS, why do you think the United States has been attacked by Muslim terrorists who were in Germany? If they truly hated the West for our freedoms, don't you think it would make more sense to attack Germany, which would have been easier to attack given their location AND has more personal freedoms than the United States?

[Dos Equis]

You're not even aware of the terrorist attacks on Russia yet you claim to know about the motivations of the same group of people who attacked the United States?

Russia has been attacked repeatedly by Muslim terrorists because of their actions in Chechnya...

REGARDLESS, why do you think the United States has been attacked by Muslim terrorists who were in Germany? If they truly hated the West for our freedoms, don't you think it would make more sense to attack Germany, which would have been easier to attack given their location AND has more personal freedoms than the United States?

Don't know and don't care.  What the heck does that have to do with why they want to kill Americans?  Have you read anything on this subject?  Have you been there?  Talked to people who have been there?  Talked to people who have lived there? 

[howardroark]

Don't know and don't care.  What the heck does that have to do with why they want to kill Americans?  Have you read anything on this subject?  Have you been there?  Talked to people who have been there?  Talked to people who have lived there? 

Evasion, evasion, evasion. Do you ever answer the questions?

And no, I've never been there, but yes, I have read extensively and not just from the neoconservative propaganda literature, and yes, I know many people from the Muslim world - India (not part of a Muslim world, but I do know Muslims from there), Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon. I live in the largest Muslim community inside the United States.

[Skip8282]

Also, Beach Bum, do you care to explain why Russia has also been a major target of Muslim terrorist attacks? It seems that if Islamic terrorists were concerned more about attacking free people, they'd ignore Russia and the United States in favor of countries like Sweden or Portugal, where same-sex marriage is legal. But instead, they target countries that are viewed as foreign oppressors by Muslims: Russia in Chechnya, and the US and the UK for their support of dictators in the Muslim world (e.g. the Shah, the Saudi monarchy, Musharraf, Hosni Mubarak before we turned our backs on him).

This is a ridiculous oversimplification and you come across as clueless.

Sweden has serious problems with terrorism, a lot of it due, much like Denmark to fucking cartoons of all things.  Of course culture is an issue.

And even if we accept your premise at face value, Portugal and Sweden supported OEF.  So two countries who are "intervening" and you're claiming they're not targets.

And you keep bringing up the Hamburg cell.  Hell, the 9/11 hijackers were not even going to attack us initially.  We didn't even become a target until Osama's peeps convinced them otherwise.  But how can this be?  According to you it's all about intervention.  Surely we would have been target #1!  Wrong, we were not.

Terrorists kill and choose their targets for many different reasons.  Of course intervention plays a role.  But it's by no means the only one.  Cultural factors, social factors, hell even economic factors play a role as some terrorists are just doing it to get money for their families.

And grossly attempting to oversimplify the problem and claim it's just intervention is pure nonsense.

[Dos Equis]

Evasion, evasion, evasion. Do you ever answer the questions?

And no, I've never been there, but yes, I have read extensively and not just from the neoconservative propaganda literature, and yes, I know many people from the Muslim world - India (not part of a Muslim world, but I do know Muslims from there), Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon. I live in the largest Muslim community inside the United States.

All the time.   

What is "neoconservative propaganda literature"?  And what have you read? 

[Dos Equis]

This is a ridiculous oversimplification and you come across as clueless.

Sweden has serious problems with terrorism, a lot of it due, much like Denmark to fucking cartoons of all things.  Of course culture is an issue.

And even if we accept your premise at face value, Portugal and Sweden supported OEF.  So two countries who are "intervening" and you're claiming they're not targets.

And you keep bringing up the Hamburg cell.  Hell, the 9/11 hijackers were not even going to attack us initially.  We didn't even become a target until Osama's peeps convinced them otherwise.  But how can this be?  According to you it's all about intervention.  Surely we would have been target #1!  Wrong, we were not.

Terrorists kill and choose their targets for many different reasons.  Of course intervention plays a role.  But it's by no means the only one.  Cultural factors, social factors, hell even economic factors play a role as some terrorists are just doing it to get money for their families.

And grossly attempting to oversimplify the problem and claim it's just intervention is pure nonsense.

Yes.  ^^^ This.