Author Topic: ObamaCare goes to the Death Panel - "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"  (Read 5829 times)

headhuntersix

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2012, 01:50:37 PM »
From ace of spades....

To be honest, Kennedy seems a lot more equivocal than liberal commentators imagined. A lot of his statements (like the one from page 24, above) are very on the fence.

The goal of the government in this sort of case is to get a limited blessing for exactly what you've done, with some kind of suggested rule suggesting what you did here was different from other hypothetical cases. You don't want, or need, some Major Sweeping Opinion blessing all hypothetical exercises of government power. You want to offer the justices a justification for saying "This one thing is okay, other things probably aren't." So in that way you give the justice a fig leaf, a fig leaf to convince himself he's not just blessing any assertion of government power willy-nilly.

My fear here, a little heightened by Kennedy's remarks, is that he's amenable to just such a pitch.

Open Minded? In the last few minutes, Allah's put up a post seizing upon the same quotes, also seeing the Weather Vane Spinning in the wind.

You have to understand justices-- they want to make small waves. They want to rule on the smallest grounds possible, creating the least new law going forward.

They will not go (generally) for something that they perceive as "fundamentally altering the relationship between citizen and government."

Nor do they easily knock down a law passed by Congress, signed by a president.

So if you offer them a middle ground, or something disguised to look like a middle ground, they just might go for it. Pitch them the idea that this is unique and limited to this one single area of activity and hence will not provide precedent or justification for further expansions of power, but will remain limited to just this one little thing.

Pitch them that, and a Weather Vane might spin your way.

We're not asking you to eat the whole of the Forbidden Fruit. Of course you'd be aghast at such a suggestion. We're just saying-- take a little nibble. Just a small little nibble, and then, cross our hearts, we'll put the Forbidden Fruit away and won't touch it ever again.

It's just a little nibble. What could it hurt
L

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2012, 02:03:17 PM »
Tommorow is going to do that.   They will argue that the law can regulate the companies without the mandate.   

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2012, 06:44:03 PM »
Skip to comments.

CNN: Today was a 'train wreck' for Obamacare
The Examiner /CNN ^ | March 27, 2012 1:03pm | Charlie Spiering
Posted on March 27, 2012 4:02:34 PM EDT by Semper911

CNN Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin said that it was a rough day for the Obama administration, as lawyers worked to defend the Obamacare's individual mandate.

"This was a train wreck for the Obama administration," Tobin said. "This law looks like it's going to be struck down. I'm telling you, all of the predictions including mine that the justices would not have a problem with this law were wrong."

Tobin said that U.S. Solicitor General David Verrilli was woefully unprepared in his defense.

"I don't know why he had a bad day, he is a good lawyer, he was a perfectly fine lawyer in the really sort of tangential argument yesterday. He was not ready for the answers for the conservative justices," he said.

"If I had to bet today I would bet that this court is going to strike down the individual mandate." he said.

Tobin was not alone in his analysis. NBC's Justice corespondent Pete Williams was also skeptical.

"It would seem at this point in the process that I think it's very doubtful that the court is going to find the health care law constitutional," he said, "I don't see five votes to find the law constitutional."

(Excerpt) Read more at campaign2012.washingtone xaminer.com ...

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2012, 07:26:48 PM »
How Paul Clement Won the Supreme Court’s Oral Arguments on Obamacare
New York ^ | March 27, 2012 | Jason Zengerle
Posted on March 27, 2012 7:36:28 PM EDT by Clintonfatigued

Paul Clement has been receiving rave reviews for his performance during the second day of oral arguments over health-care reform before the Supreme Court. (“[T]he best argument I’ve ever heard,” SCOTUSblog Tom Goldstein raved on Twitter). But Clement’s finest moment may have come when he was completely silent.

A little more than two minutes into Solicitor General Donald Verilli’s turn at the bar, Justice Anthony Kennedy interrupted him: “Can you create commerce in order to regulate it?”

Kennedy’s query was an almost verbatim recital of Clement’s own talking point, part of the fundamental argument he has made against the individual mandate. In his brief to the Court, and later during his oral argument, he said Obama’s health-care law “represents an unprecedented effort by Congress to compel individuals to enter commerce in order to better regulate commerce.”

It’s a recasting of the original argument used by opponents of the mandate: that Congress has overstepped its constitutional authority by regulating inactivity rather than activity.

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ____________________

Seen through that lens, Clement has to be feeling pretty good about his experience at the Court earlier today. While he faced tough, bordering-on-hostile questions from the four liberal justices — most notably from Justice Steven Breyer, who seemed to be lecturing more than asking — the two justices who seem most open to persuasion by either side, Kennedy and Chief Justice John Roberts, were far tougher on Verilli. And when they did have questions for Clement, he handled them with aplomb.

(Excerpt) Read more at nymag.com ...

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2012, 07:29:10 PM »
I listened to the whole thing on the treadmill today and liked them shooting down Barry's argument.

But, they were also pretty tough on the states.

NOBODY, even the Justices, could seem to define where Congress' power would end if they upheld the mandate.  Anything and everything could be regulated from birth to death.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2012, 07:31:00 PM »
I listened to the whole thing on the treadmill today and liked them shooting down Barry's argument.

But, they were also pretty tough on the states.

NOBODY, even the Justices, could seem to define where Congress' power would end if they upheld the mandate.  Anything and everything could be regulated from birth to death.


Ginsburg, kagan, and breyer were horrible.    I have to give Sotomayor credit.  Over the last two days I am very impressed w her, even if o disagree on some issues.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 07:37:13 PM »

Ginsburg, kagan, and breyer were horrible.    I have to give Sotomayor credit.  Over the last two days I am very impressed w her, even if o disagree on some issues.




I heard the news saying Kennedy will probably be the swing vote which I think you and George had predicted a while back.

I couldn't tell which way he was leaning, but I'm no constitutional scholar.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2012, 07:40:29 PM »



I heard the news saying Kennedy will probably be the swing vote which I think you and George had predicted a while back.

I couldn't tell which way he was leaning, but I'm no constitutional scholar.

He specifically said ObamaCare fundamentally changes the relationship between the ciitizen and the govt today.  Hard to see how he walks back from that considering he is a center right jurist. 

my best guess at this point is that they give Obama a half assed victory.  Strike down the mandate, but keep some of the regs in place otherwise.  But that still ends ObamaCare since wo the mandate the. Whole mess falls apart.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2012, 07:56:22 PM »
He specifically said ObamaCare fundamentally changes the relationship between the ciitizen and the govt today.  Hard to see how he walks back from that considering he is a center right jurist. 

my best guess at this point is that they give Obama a half assed victory.  Strike down the mandate, but keep some of the regs in place otherwise.  But that still ends ObamaCare since wo the mandate the. Whole mess falls apart.

From what I've read, he asked some pointed questions to the guys arguing against it as well, though. They weren't on the scope of the questions he grilled Virilli with but I don't think it's a done deal by any stretch. But then again, I'm not a lawyer.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2012, 08:00:38 PM »
From what I've read, he asked some pointed questions to the guys arguing against it as well, though. They weren't on the scope of the questions he grilled Virilli with but I don't think it's a done deal by any stretch. But then again, I'm not a lawyer.

I have not read the submissions, but have read the lower court decisions.  personally, I find Judge Vinsons's decision as most well reasoned. 

I just don't see where The govt carved out even a slight opening for a mandate here.  Seemed to me that the justices were looking for something to create a hook for the govt to hang it's hat on, but the govt failed.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2012, 08:10:18 PM »
I also don't think the Republicans want to celebrate too much if it is overturned.  They need to enact alternatives because there are a lot of problems with the current system.

Politically, they're going to get hit if they just try to use it for boasting without having an alternative to put forth.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2012, 08:45:52 PM »
Audio: Scalia lectures Verrilli on enumerated powers (“What is left, if the gov't can do this?”)
Hotair ^ | 03/27/2012 | AllahPundit
Posted on March 27, 2012 11:20:10 PM EDT by SeekAndFind

The guy who uploaded this to YouTube calls it a “benchslap.” It's loads of fun, and the point about limited powers will sound familiar. The key part comes early when Scalia jumps in to challenge Verrilli's citation of Court precedent. Those cases dealt with commerce, he says; in this case, the legislation is aimed at people who aren't participating in commerce, i.e. people without insurance. That's a gut-punch to the left since, once you make that move conceptually, the Commerce Clause defense of the statute is hanging by a thread. You can follow his thinking over the rest of the clip from there. If it's not commerce, then Congress has no power to regulate it, and if Congress has no power to regulate it, then the Tenth Amendment says this is a matter for the states. And to think, a few days ago, Democrats thought they might be able to use Scalia's Raich opinion to swing him over to their side.

Roberts was a bit more equivocal in today’s arguments but read Philip Klein’s analysis of the rhetoric he used in his comments from the bench. There were an awful lot of phrases in there suggesting he was arguing from belief against the statute, not merely as a devil’s advocate to probe the lawyers’ arguments. Meanwhile, over at SCOTUSblog, Kevin Russell looks at Roberts’s and Alito’s questioning and wonders, “Is Kennedy the only possible fifth vote for the government?” His conclusion: Yep, pretty much. Exit question: C’mon, a Reagan appointee’s not really going to be the fifth vote for the ObamaCare mandate, is he? Good lord.

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE AUDIO

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2012, 08:51:47 PM »
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/03/27/toobin_this_was_a_train_wreck_for_the_obama_administration.html

Toobin may be right, but to be fair he stopped being a serious attorney well over a decade ago. Quoting him as some kind of legal authority is laughable at best.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2012, 10:25:18 PM »

WTF took you so long? 

No one disputes the right of the govt to regulate commerce, but compelling commerce is something well beyond any historical precedent.   

Its been a while since I took Con Law, and I think everybody agrees that teh Commerce Clause is the most confusing subject of the course. Several Conservative Legal Minds dont know whether it is Constitutional, such as  Senator Jon Kyl. The thing that pushed me over is the whole dichotamy between regulating activity and regulating inactivity.

As always, liberals seem to be making the mistake of confusing the implications of the subject matter with what the law actually says. Thier main argument seems to be that the mandate is needed because supposedly hospitals are mandated by law to treat people, and this imposes costs. Which is true, but nobody has ever sued the federal government claiming that free services at hospitals is a constiutional right, and ceratinly no court has upheld that.
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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2012, 03:19:57 AM »
Its been a while since I took Con Law, and I think everybody agrees that teh Commerce Clause is the most confusing subject of the course. Several Conservative Legal Minds dont know whether it is Constitutional, such as  Senator Jon Kyl. The thing that pushed me over is the whole dichotamy between regulating activity and regulating inactivity.

As always, liberals seem to be making the mistake of confusing the implications of the subject matter with what the law actually says. Thier main argument seems to be that the mandate is needed because supposedly hospitals are mandated by law to treat people, and this imposes costs. Which is true, but nobody has ever sued the federal government claiming that free services at hospitals is a constiutional right, and ceratinly no court has upheld that.


the other issue s that ObamaCare is not limited to catastrophe care for the ER! 

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2012, 04:53:18 AM »
i'm against obamacare - i favored a series of smaller bills that did the good things but kept the mandate out.

my Question for getbiggers who are against this bill - what do you do about the 18-40 year old person who chooses not to carry insurance, who gets hit by a truck or appendicitis, is carried into the ER unconscious, and racks up $100k in bills in a day or two.

I know, noble getbiggers who are in their 20s brag about not having health insurance - saying "I would refuse emergency care" - and we know once they're bleeding, that goes out the window.

So what do we do?  Do we pay for that guy's appendix or gall bladder to get removed, or just let the fcker die?  Cuz the moment you say "let's fix him" - it's social welfare you're approving.  Immediately.  Or, if you say "let him die" - then you have a rash of insane crime as ppl literally rob banks and kill their own grandmothers for $ to pay for healthcare they'll die without.

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2012, 05:02:30 AM »
i'm against obamacare - i favored a series of smaller bills that did the good things but kept the mandate out.

my Question for getbiggers who are against this bill - what do you do about the 18-40 year old person who chooses not to carry insurance, who gets hit by a truck or appendicitis, is carried into the ER unconscious, and racks up $100k in bills in a day or two.

I know, noble getbiggers who are in their 20s brag about not having health insurance - saying "I would refuse emergency care" - and we know once they're bleeding, that goes out the window.

So what do we do?  Do we pay for that guy's appendix or gall bladder to get removed, or just let the fcker die?  Cuz the moment you say "let's fix him" - it's social welfare you're approving.  Immediately.  Or, if you say "let him die" - then you have a rash of insane crime as ppl literally rob banks and kill their own grandmothers for $ to pay for healthcare they'll die without.


Govt created this mess w the EMTALA law and should not be able to violate my rights to remedy a problem created by its own invention.

There are plenty of other ways to deal with this and the ER issue is a scam being used by proponents and shills for obama to obfuscate the issue entirely.     

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2012, 05:52:55 AM »
i'm against obamacare - i favored a series of smaller bills that did the good things but kept the mandate out.

my Question for getbiggers who are against this bill - what do you do about the 18-40 year old person who chooses not to carry insurance, who gets hit by a truck or appendicitis, is carried into the ER unconscious, and racks up $100k in bills in a day or two.

I know, noble getbiggers who are in their 20s brag about not having health insurance - saying "I would refuse emergency care" - and we know once they're bleeding, that goes out the window.

So what do we do?  Do we pay for that guy's appendix or gall bladder to get removed, or just let the fcker die?  Cuz the moment you say "let's fix him" - it's social welfare you're approving.  Immediately.  Or, if you say "let him die" - then you have a rash of insane crime as ppl literally rob banks and kill their own grandmothers for $ to pay for healthcare they'll die without.


As Alito said yesterday - why not force everyone to buy burial insurance since everyone will die and if they are broke the govet i e the taxpayers will be forced to pay for burial services? 


Best argument I heard yesterday.   

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2012, 06:48:39 AM »
Today’s Arguments Tilt Against the Individual Mandate
National Review ^ | 03/28/2012 | Carrie Severino




Today was the main event at the Supreme Court, debating the constitutionality of the individual mandate. The Court’s audience, including more than a few members of Congress, was full for the marathon two-hour argument. Even near the back of the courtroom, I shared a bench with three senators — the Court’s VIP section was obviously inundated.

Solicitor General Verrilli had a rough start to his argument, speaking haltingly, stumbling, and stopping to take a drink. The solicitor general spent almost all his time trying to convince the justices that health care is, in fact, different from other markets. While Justices Ginsburg and Kagan were trying to throw him soft balls, Verrilli kept striking out with Justices Scalia, Roberts, and Alito, and to some extent, Kennedy.

Justice Kennedy was particularly concerned because, as he put it, the government bears a “heavy burden of justification” when a law “changes the relationship of the individual to government in a unique way.” From my reading, General Verrilli didn’t ultimately convince them, and Justice Kennedy returned to the issue several times. He asked whether the administration’s argument had any limits “at all,” and noted that the mandate “requires the individual to do an affirmative act,” a completely novel type of law.

The Chief Justice and Justice Scalia were most vocal on this issue, the Chief declaring that “all bets are off” if they accept the expansive interpretation advanced by the administration.

Justice Kennedy probed Paul Clement, who was arguing for the 26 state respondents, on whether Americans “are in the market in the sense that they create a risk the market has to account for.” Justices Kagan and Breyer were firmly in this camp, with Breyer content that the risks alone were enough to bring people into a market. He went so far as to suggest that being born was equivalent to entering the health-care market. Justice Kagan was in favor of not “slicing the bologna too thin” by paying attention to the details of whether and when people enter a market.

An analysis by Justice Sutton of the Sixth Circuit got some play as Justice Kagan signaled twice that she might view the challenge differently if it were an as-applied challenge. For example, she suggested a Christian Scientist who objects to heath care might make a better plaintiff.

Justice Ginsburg, unsurprisingly, sent clear signals that she accepted the administration’s position. While she agreed that the mandate is a form of cross-subsidization, she was untroubled by this, given the cost-shifting that happens due to uncompensated health care.

Justice Breyer was perfectly comfortable with Congress creating commerce ex nihilo, a position even the solicitor general went to great (and, I believe, illogical) lengths to distance himself from. The solicitor general insisted on making the demonstrably false statement that the mandate in fact is not “creating commerce,” but is regulating actual market participants.

General Verrilli justified rounding the number of participants in the health-care market up to 100 percent simply because over 80 percent of Americans use health care yearly. But even a small percentage of the American population still represents millions of individuals.

Justice Kennedy expressed concern that the “uniqueness of the health-care market” would not operate as an effective limit on the Commerce Clause, because Congress would just say something else is unique next year. He nonetheless queried whether the line between participants and non-participants was not “uniquely proximately very close.” If Justice Kennedy does decide to uphold the individual mandate, he will try to construct a limiting principle, and hopefully one that is more defined than the obviously unadministrable question of “unique, proximate, very-closeness.” This is why people speculate the Chief Justice may vote with Justice Kennedy if he decides to uphold the law, in order to provide a more workable limiting principle.

Today’s argument indicates that those predicting a lopsided decision in favor of the mandate should start getting used to disappointment, and those who value their constitutional protections have good reason for optimism.


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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2012, 08:46:46 AM »

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2012, 08:47:46 AM »

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Re: ObamaCare is going down! "Got massacred today in the Supreme Court"
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2012, 08:55:50 AM »
A Constitutional Awakening

A bad day for unlimited government at the High Court


www.wsj.com






Tuesday's two hours of Supreme Court oral arguments on ObamaCare's individual mandate were rough-going for the government and its assertions of unlimited federal power. Several Justices are clearly taking seriously the Constitution's structural checks and balances that are intended to protect individual liberty.

Solicitor General Donald Verrilli faced aggressive questioning from Justices Anthony Kennedy and Antonin Scalia and Chief Justice John Roberts, the trio pegged as possible swing votes in favor of the mandate to buy insurance or pay a penalty. But they failed to elicit from Mr. Verrilli some limiting principle under the Commerce Clause that distinguishes a health plan mandate from any other purchase mandate that would be unconstitutional. The exchanges recalled the famous moment in Citizens United when the government claimed it could ban books to regulate political speech.

"Can you create commerce in order to regulate it?" inquired Justice Kennedy, in the first question from the bench. To ask another way, does the Administration think it has plenary police powers to coerce individuals into economic transactions they would otherwise avoid?

Mr. Verrilli replied that health care is "unique," so Justice Samuel Alito brought up the "market for burial services" and asked if the government could mandate funeral insurance. After all, in the long run we are all dead and thus could transfer the costs of our deaths to the rest of society. (See nearby.)

Mr. Verrilli's error is that even if health care and health insurance were intrinsically different from all other markets—and they aren't—that fact is constitutionally irrelevant. Any federal exercise of police powers is untenable because the Constitution gives such powers to the states.

Justice Scalia bowed at this reality when he asked if having blue eyes would be a meaningful principle limiting the mandate. "That would indeed distinguish it from other situations," he said, but it would also be irrelevant because it would still be "going beyond what the system of enumerated powers allows the government to do."

Justice Scalia returned to this point when he said that apropos of the Necessary and Proper Clause, "in addition to being necessary, it has to be proper. And we've held in two cases that something that was reasonably adopted was not proper because it violated the sovereignty of the states, which was implicit in the constitutional structure."

Those core features of the American system were also stressed by Justice Kennedy. "The government is saying that the federal government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act," he said, "and that is different from what we have in previous cases, and that changes the relationship of the federal government to the individual in the very fundamental way."

Related Video

 Editorial board member Joe Rago takes apart the government's argument that the individual mandate is constitutional under the Commerce Clause. Plus, new polling shows that the law unpopular.
..Justice Kennedy later expressed some sympathy for the government's claim that young people who don't buy insurance are "very close" to affecting interstate commerce, but the key distinction is that proximity is not enough and can't be enforced by the courts. To regulate individuals at any point in their lives merely because they exist would still undermine the accountability and destroy the dual sovereignty that are the touchstones of his jurisprudence.

***
As it happens, today the Court hears separate arguments on Medicaid, and the themes in that controversy dovetail with those of the individual mandate. Just as the Court may rule that commerce powers are broad but not unlimited, the same is true for the spending power.

Florida and 25 other states contend that ObamaCare's conversion of this voluntary program originally intended for the poor into all-purpose insurance for tens of millions of people is unconstitutional coercion. By commandeering the states and their taxpayers as de facto arms of the federal government, the Administration has abrogated the system of dual sovereignty as surely as it has by claiming police powers.

Medicaid was created in 1965 as a cooperative federal-state partnership. States could opt in, or not, and there were still holdouts as late as 1982. The program has expanded greatly over the years to the point that it is now the largest component of most state budgets. But Governors and legislatures have always had some measure of flexibility and independent control.

The Affordable Care Act obliterates this status quo and forces states to add everyone up to 138% of the poverty level to the rolls. The feds will pick up most of the new costs through 2020, though the states are still on the hook for between $20 billion and $43.2 billion in new costs, and much more into perpetuity.

The Administration says states can reject these huge new liabilities and leave new Medicaid altogether, even as it threatens them with the loss of all federal funds for doing so. But in practical terms that would be ruinous for the local hospitals, doctors, nursing homes and other providers that have adapted to Medicaid's size and depend on the program for revenue. The federal government is giving states a choice between an immediate economic calamity or a unilateral rewrite of the contracts they entered decades ago and eventual calamity as they absorb the new costs. The technical term is extortion.

The Court has always balanced federal and state power by distinguishing between pressure and coercion. ObamaCare crosses that line. The conditions of new Medicaid conscript the states into involuntary servitude to the federal government's policy goals, in this case national health care. They would no longer be independent and autonomous units within the federalist system but agents of Washington.

Judicial liberals have responded to the Medicaid challenge with the legal equivalent of rolling their eyes, much as they did with the individual mandate and the Commerce Clause. On the evidence of Tuesday's oral arguments, that may turn out to be a mistake as well.

A version of this article appeared Mar. 28, 2012, on page A12 in some U.S. editions of The Wall Street Journal, with the headline: A Constitutional Awakening.


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