steroid scandal 1992

[littleguns]

If the steroid scandal never happened would Brett and Shawn still be given the ball or would the big guys still be running the ship?

[funk51]

If the steroid scandal never happened would Brett and Shawn still be given the ball or would the big guys still be running the ship?

what steroid scandal, no one here ever done roids.

[MCWAY]

If the steroid scandal never happened would Brett and Shawn still be given the ball or would the big guys still be running the ship?

The big guys were STILL running the ship then. Diesel, Razor, and 'Taker weren't exactly shrimp.

Maybe we'd still have the WBF. Maybe, there would have been more defections from the IFBB, after some questionable calls at the Olympia.

[UPINTHEMGUTS]

Triple HHH's physique at it's best peak years. He was roided out of his gord back then. He stopped doing the cutting steriods once he started piling up the injuries. Now he's fatter so his body can endure the ring wear.

[Montague]

If the steroid scandal never happened would Brett and Shawn still be given the ball or would the big guys still be running the ship?

Bret opened the door for the smaller, more athletic guys like himself and Shawn. Although Vince had still been pushing the bigger guys, it helped that the muscle-head era was over; Nash & Taker were big & tall men, but they didn't look like pro bodybuilders.

I think the Federation fans were gradually growing a little tired of the "same old" acts ala the Hogan's and UW's. 
Guys like Bret & Shawn provided fans the substance that had been missing in the shallow performances of their predecessors. With that in mind, I would say yes: eventually, the smaller/better workers would have been given the reigns.

[MCWAY]

Bret opened the door for the smaller, more athletic guys like himself and Shawn. Although Vince had still been pushing the bigger guys, it helped that the muscle-head era was over; Nash & Taker were big & tall men, but they didn't look like pro bodybuilders.

He brought back Bulldog. And did you see how big Crush got, when he switched from being a member of Demolition to being the happy-go-lucky Hawaiian, who liked to squish people's heads?

Again, Razor, Diesel, and 'Taker weren't exactly shrimp. Neither was Papa Shango/Kama.

I think the Federation fans were gradually growing a little tired of the "same old" acts ala the Hogan's and UW's.  
Guys like Bret & Shawn provided fans the substance that had been missing in the shallow performances of their predecessors. With that in mind, I would say yes: eventually, the smaller/better workers would have been given the reigns.

They brought Warrior back, and prior to his getting injured by Faarooq (who ain't exactly chopped liver, size-wise), they pushed the dickens out of Ahmed Johnson.

Not to mention that when Warrior got suspended (and later fired), guess who took his place...PSYCHO SID (who ended up beating Shawn for the belt, after being Shawn's bodyguard and feuding with Diesel the previous year).

[Montague]

He brought back Bulldog. And did you see how big Crush got, when he switched from being a member of Demolition to being the happy-go-lucky Hawaiian, who liked to squish people's heads?

Again, Razor, Diesel, and 'Taker weren't exactly shrimp. Neither was Papa Shango/Kama.

They brought Warrior back, and prior to his getting injured by Faarooq (who ain't exactly chopped liver, size-wise), they pushed the dickens out of Ahmed Johnson.

Not to mention that when Warrior got suspended (and later fired), guess who took his place...PSYCHO SID (who ended up beating Shawn for the belt, after being Shawn's bodyguard and feuding with Diesel the previous year).

I know you love to point out "inaccuracies," but before being too quick to "correct" people here, get your facts straight.

We're talking about guys who were given the ball or ran the ship, i.e., given the big belt. Neither Davey nor Crush fall into this category.

Again, you point out Razor, Diesel, and 'Taker, this time with Papa Shango/Kama added. And, again, I will point out the difference between being generally big and/or tall vs. "bodybuilder big." This thread is talking about the roided up muscle-heads.
Anyway, of those listed, only Taker & Diesel held the big belt, so the others are disqualified from both categories.

Hellwig was noticeably smaller when he returned, and remember that he & Davey were axed when it was discovered they were both receiving hGH from a pharmacy in England. Being fired for bodybuilding drug use hardly constitutes any kind of push.

Sid was also fired for acting up in an Atlanta bar shortly after his title win. With the recent negative press of "steroid monsters," Vince could not risk future incidents with someone Sid's size.

Shawn Michaels, on the other hand, was involved in numerous altercations at bars & clubs, as well as showing up to shows shit-faced plastered on Somas and other Rx drugs. Not only was it overlooked, but he was pushed to multiple heavyweight title runs.

From all of this, it is clear who management was relying on enough to keep in the driver's seat AT ALL COSTS, and it wasn't any of the "big" guys you mentioned.

[MCWAY]

I know you love to point out "inaccuracies," but before being too quick to "correct" people here, get your facts straight.

We're talking about guys who were given the ball or ran the ship, i.e., given the big belt. Neither Davey nor Crush fall into this category.

But, before you're given the ball or run the ship, you usually work your way up the ranks and get some main-event slots to prove your worth. Davey Boy got such slots and went from a solid fan-favorite to a major heel.

Besides, having the big belt doesn't mean you run the ship. CM Punk has been WWE Champion for over six months. Sheamus has been World Champion for two months. Guess who still runs the ship.....JOHN CENA, a big muscular guy.

Back in late 2006/early 2007, the three champions were all big and swole: Cena (WWE Champ), Batista (World Heavyweight Champ), and Lashley (ECW World Champion)

Again, you point out Razor, Diesel, and 'Taker, this time with Papa Shango/Kama added. And, again, I will point out the difference between being generally big and/or tall vs. "bodybuilder big." This thread is talking about the roided up muscle-heads.
Anyway, of those listed, only Taker & Diesel held the big belt, so the others are disqualified from both categories.

Muscle-heads? You're going to tell me that Razor Ramon wasn't muscular? That big guys only count if they're bodybuilder ripped? If that's the case, why was the emphasis put on HOGAN (who has never been bodybuilder-ripped) during this scandal?

Hellwig was noticeably smaller when he returned, and remember that he & Davey were axed when it was discovered they were both receiving hGH from a pharmacy in England. Being fired for bodybuilding drug use hardly constitutes any kind of push.

But, both Bulldog and Warrior returned. Bulldog came back less than two years after he got axed (SummerSlam '94). And, of course, Warrior made his return in '96.

Sid was also fired for acting up in an Atlanta bar shortly after his title win. With the recent negative press of "steroid monsters," Vince could not risk future incidents with someone Sid's size.

Ummmmm.....I don't get that one. Sid beat Shawn for the title at the '96 Survivor Series, lost to Shawn at the '97 Rumble, and beat Bret for the title on RAW (after "In Your House: Final Four", where Bret won the vacated belt).

Sid disappeared after a six-man tag at the '97 King of the Ring, with him and the LOD vs. the Hart Foundation. This was, of course, after Sid lost the strap to 'Taker at WrestleMania 13. My guess is that the firing of which you speak occurred after King of the Ring.

Shawn Michaels, on the other hand, was involved in numerous altercations at bars & clubs, as well as showing up to shows shit-faced plastered on Somas and other Rx drugs. Not only was it overlooked, but he was pushed to multiple heavyweight title runs.

From all of this, it is clear who management was relying on enough to keep in the driver's seat AT ALL COSTS, and it wasn't any of the "big" guys you mentioned.

As I stated earlier, Ahmed Johnson was getting a HUGE PUSH, before Faarooq injured him. He won the IC title from Goldust and a battle royal, which earned him a title shot against Michaels before he went down.

And Warrior was also back in the mix before he got whacked a third time. But, who got Warrior's title push? A guy even BIGGER than he was, Sid, who ended up winning the belt at Survivor Series.

I'm not denying that smaller guys like Shawn and Bret carried the company mail. That isn't usual, considering Savage and Flair were champions when this scandal really hit hard (not that Savage was a twig, by any stretch. He was always considered to be "small", due to being compared with Hogan).

On a slightly different topic, I posted the videos with the Rock-N-Roll Express in WWE, as well as the new Midnight Express in the "Who Hasn't Worked for VKM" thread.

[Montague]

But, before you're given the ball or run the ship, you usually work your way up the ranks and get some main-event slots to prove your worth. Davey Boy got such slots and went from a solid fan-favorite to a major heel.

Besides, having the big belt doesn't mean you run the ship. CM Punk has been WWE Champion for over six months. Sheamus has been World Champion for two months. Guess who still runs the ship.....JOHN CENA, a big muscular guy.

Back in late 2006/early 2007, the three champions were all big and swole: Cena (WWE Champ), Batista (World Heavyweight Champ), and Lashley (ECW World Champion)

Muscle-heads? You're going to tell me that Razor Ramon wasn't muscular? That big guys only count if they're bodybuilder ripped? If that's the case, why was the emphasis put on HOGAN (who has never been bodybuilder-ripped) during this scandal?

But, both Bulldog and Warrior returned. Bulldog came back less than two years after he got axed (SummerSlam '94). And, of course, Warrior made his return in '96.

Ummmmm.....I don't get that one. Sid beat Shawn for the title at the '96 Survivor Series, lost to Shawn at the '97 Rumble, and beat Bret for the title on RAW (after "In Your House: Final Four", where Bret won the vacated belt).

Sid disappeared after a six-man tag at the '97 King of the Ring, with him and the LOD vs. the Hart Foundation. This was, of course, after Sid lost the strap to 'Taker at WrestleMania 13. My guess is that the firing of which you speak occurred after King of the Ring.

As I stated earlier, Ahmed Johnson was getting a HUGE PUSH, before Faarooq injured him. He won the IC title from Goldust and a battle royal, which earned him a title shot against Michaels before he went down.

And Warrior was also back in the mix before he got whacked a third time. But, who got Warrior's title push? A guy even BIGGER than he was, Sid, who ended up winning the belt at Survivor Series.

I'm not denying that smaller guys like Shawn and Bret carried the company mail. That isn't usual, considering Savage and Flair were champions when this scandal really hit hard (not that Savage was a twig, by any stretch. He was always considered to be "small", due to being compared with Hogan).

On a slightly different topic, I posted the videos with the Rock-N-Roll Express in WWE, as well as the new Midnight Express in the "Who Hasn't Worked for VKM" thread.

In the context of Bret & Shawn being "given the ball," that phrase refers to the position of champion.

My point concerning Sid is that he acted up once and was released.
HBK acted up countless times and was kept on; even "rewarded."
If Vince was pushing the "big" guys, it would have been the other way around.


This is typical of you.
We are talking about the immediate fallout following the 1992 steroid scandal (the Shawn/Bret era). You tried to discredit our discussion & points. I shot you down with facts, so now you are grasping at straws by jumping to CM Punk, 2006, and 2007. That is NOT the Shawn/Bret era.

Just admit you're wrong. I know you've never done this on here. After being shot down in every way, shape and form and exhausting every ounce of non-sequitur argument, you often simply disappear from the board. Then you poke your head around a few months later when you catch something you can "correct," which I'll be honest, is tacky, in poor taste, and has resulted in me getting FIVE COMPLAINTS ABOUT YOU FROM THREE DIFFERENT MEMBERS IN THE LAST 11 MONTHS. You like facts? There ya go!

Thank you for posting video evidence in the VKM thread. As I mentioned above, not all of us here are always right. The fact that you like to throw it in people's faces does not make you a liked member here. Some of the "information" on which you base your insight and opinion offered here also does not make you a favored or CREDIBLE member.

This board is meant to be a positive and fun place.
We do our part to keep it that way.
You seem to be the only one who does not. Again, your primary focus seems to be on pointing out when others make a mistake, which - for the number of times you actually are correct - does not cast you in a positive light.

I have defended you to the members who have filed formal complaints. I will not do this anymore.
I will also not directly respond to your posts anymore, as doing so is usless and unenjoyable.
What everyone else does is up to them.

[MCWAY]

In the context of Bret & Shawn being "given the ball," that phrase refers to the position of champion.

My point concerning Sid is that he acted up once and was released.
HBK acted up countless times and was kept on; even "rewarded."
If Vince was pushing the "big" guys, it would have been the other way around.


This is typical of you.
We are talking about the immediate fallout following the 1992 steroid scandal (the Shawn/Bret era). You tried to discredit our discussion & points. I shot you down with facts, so now you are grasping at straws by jumping to CM Punk, 2006, and 2007. That is NOT the Shawn/Bret era.

That's not grasping at straws at all. I used the Cena and Punk statement to make a point. You claimed that carrying the ball meant being WWF/WWE champion. That's not necessarily the case. I know the belt meant more back then than it does now. But, the statement still holds true.

BTW, I was wondering why Sid disappeared after King of the Ring '97. You provided the answer. Thanks!

Just admit you're wrong. I know you've never done this on here. After being shot down in every way, shape and form and exhausting every ounce of non-sequitur argument, you often simply disappear from the board. Then you poke your head around a few months later when you catch something you can "correct," which I'll be honest, is tacky, in poor taste, and has resulted in me getting FIVE COMPLAINTS ABOUT YOU FROM THREE DIFFERENT MEMBERS IN THE LAST 11 MONTHS. You like facts? There ya go!

Boy are you guys sensitive or what? First, I'm not trying to discredit anyone here. I simply see an interesting and lively discussion and jump on board. And, I'm hardly one who's above admitting when I'm wrong. In fact, I often put an "Edit" on my post to make a correction, if I don't modify it outright.

I said at the end of my previous statement that Shawn and Bret did help carry the ball (or the company mail). Where we disagree is that such was due to the absence of "big guys".

Where we also disagree is the definition of" big guys" You seem to limit that term to guys who look like ripped bodybuilders. I'm not making that restriction, hence the reason I mentioned Razor and Diesel, two of the most popular guys in the WWF, during the "New Generation" era. One was IC champ 4 times, the other racked up all the titles in '94, keeping the WWF title for nearly a year.

Thank you for posting video evidence in the VKM thread. As I mentioned above, not all of us here are always right. The fact that you like to throw it in people's faces does not make you a liked member here. Some of the "information" on which you base your insight and opinion offered here also does not make you a favored or CREDIBLE member.

This board is meant to be a positive and fun place.
We do our part to keep it that way.
You seem to be the only one who does not. Again, your primary focus seems to be on pointing out when others make a mistake, which - for the number of times you actually are correct - does not cast you in a positive light.

I have defended you to the members who have filed formal complaints. I will not do this anymore.
I will also not directly respond to your posts anymore, as doing so is usless and unenjoyable.
What everyone else does is up to them.

So, now anyone who doesn't agree with the folks here or has a point to make in a lively discussion is a trouble-maker. Good Grief.

My primary focus here is to discuss wrestling. And, as you know, I often post here to give run-downs on pay-per-views. And when I make my post, I have this habit of using facts and videos to back them up.

You and whoever else is complaining here are taking this WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and WAY TOO HARD. This is supposed to be fun. And if anyone has an issue with me, I'd appreciate it if they said so to me directly.

[littleguns]

Cant we all just get along.

Monty - definitely watch the Hart/Michaels DVD....very ineresting (not a ton of footage, just sit down interview with JR. Brett called the muscleheads/big guys "dinosaurs" not for the age but rather their size and that fans knew what move(s) were next. He said that he and Shawn were always able to change it up and left the fans wondering...

[Montague]

Cant we all just get along.

Monty - definitely watch the Hart/Michaels DVD....very ineresting (not a ton of footage, just sit down interview with JR. Brett called the muscleheads/big guys "dinosaurs" not for the age but rather their size and that fans knew what move(s) were next. He said that he and Shawn were always able to change it up and left the fans wondering...

Absolutely! Not only did Bret & Shawn have more substance in the ring, but I think they were better able to connect with the fans who could more closely identify with their more realistic size/builds. The steroid ban affected all of the bodybuilder-type physiques, but had no impact on height & fat. So, with steroids "gone," I think it also made the guys like Nash, Yoko, and Taker seem more like a spectacle.
That, in turn, established their opponents as more of an underdog in the matchup.

[Montague]

I have the DVD and have watched it several times. Loved it. Really saw how much of a j*rk Shawn Michael's really is. I've only been a fan of the show and never cared what happens backstage, so still feel the same about HBK being the best.

Now Bret said he and Shawn were always able to change it up. What did Bret ever change up? In my opinion Bret still is P4P greatest champion ever, but he always did the same thing. Side back breaker, elbow from the middle rope, that side neck breaker, the occasional suicide dive through the second rope, and the sharp shooter. And he'd always go running face first into the corner. It wasn't until he went Anti-American Bret and started to do that figure four on the ring post move. The guy was always exactly the same, great, but the same. Showstoppa on the other hand, he raised the bar every time he got in the ring. These two guys were completely different and besides working in the same era, should never be put in the same class. Bret was smaller then the "dinosaurs" but was definitely not a small guy. HBK was the first true "small guy" headliner.

Shawn actually approached Bret during the Hitman's first title win to thank him for opening the door for the smaller guys; this was in his more humble days. HBK did more stuff off the ropes and was more flamboyant, but I always preferred (still do) Bret's character to the male stripper. Bret's ring work was always solid, and he was able to tell a good story during his matches using timing, psychology and emotion. That said, Shawn was always able to get more sypmathy from the fans because of all those crazy-ass bumps he took. Until Foley came into the Fed, I think HBK may have been about the best bump-taker in the company.

Interesting fact about the F4 around the ring post: Bret said he loved the move and was proud of the fact that it looked excruciating, but, for his opponent, it was as comfortable as crossing your legs. He said the biggest risk was depending on your opponent to hold onto your leg during the move. If his hand slipped, you'd come crashing down on your head!

[MCWAY]

I have the DVD and have watched it several times. Loved it. Really saw how much of a j*rk Shawn Michael's really is. I've only been a fan of the show and never cared what happens backstage, so still feel the same about HBK being the best.

Now Bret said he and Shawn were always able to change it up. What did Bret ever change up? In my opinion Bret still is P4P greatest champion ever, but he always did the same thing. Side back breaker, elbow from the middle rope, that side neck breaker, the occasional suicide dive through the second rope, and the sharp shooter. And he'd always go running face first into the corner. It wasn't until he went Anti-American Bret and started to do that figure four on the ring post move. The guy was always exactly the same, great, but the same. Showstoppa on the other hand, he raised the bar every time he got in the ring. These two guys were completely different and besides working in the same era, should never be put in the same class. Bret was smaller then the "dinosaurs" but was definitely not a small guy. HBK was the first true "small guy" headliner.

To me, Shawn and Bret were about the same size. In some instances, Shawn looked bigger than Bret.

As far as the "big guy" thing goes, where Montague and I disagree is that term being applied to wrestlers who looked like bodybuilders.

That's why I mentioned two of the biggest stars of the "New Generation" era, Diesel and Razor, were big men. Ripped to the bone? NO! (at least not with Nash). But both were huge. If Hall actually used a razor, he would have looked shredded. And from the waist up, Big D had mass that would put most bodybuilders to shame.

McMahon tends to trend to big men being the headliners (if not champion). Go back to 1996, even though Bret and Shawn were holding the belt, it seemed Vince was trying to build up a big man to be champion.

First, it was the Ultimate Warrior...again. When he got suspended and fired, it became Ahmed Johnson. When he got injured, the push went to Sid. Remember all the hoopla after "In Your House: It's Time", where the commentators were talking about how Sid beat Shawn and Bret in a 30-day span of time?

Then there was WrestleMania 13 and the debate as to whether the main event should be Austin vs. Hart (Submission match) or Sid vs. Undertaker for the title. There was even the idea of giving Bret the title and having his match with Austin a title match. I don't know if politics played a role or if this was sympathy thing for the Deadman. But, as we all know, Sid and 'Taker got the main-event slot.

[funk51]

I have the DVD and have watched it several times. Loved it. Really saw how much of a j*rk Shawn Michael's really is. I've only been a fan of the show and never cared what happens backstage, so still feel the same about HBK being the best.

Now Bret said he and Shawn were always able to change it up. What did Bret ever change up? In my opinion Bret still is P4P greatest champion ever, but he always did the same thing. Side back breaker, elbow from the middle rope, that side neck breaker, the occasional suicide dive through the second rope, and the sharp shooter. And he'd always go running face first into the corner. It wasn't until he went Anti-American Bret and started to do that figure four on the ring post move. The guy was always exactly the same, great, but the same. Showstoppa on the other hand, he raised the bar every time he got in the ring. These two guys were completely different and besides working in the same era, should never be put in the same class. Bret was smaller then the "dinosaurs" but was definitely not a small guy. HBK was the first true "small guy" headliner.

i agree with you about not changing things up another guy highly ranked was dean malenko, often called man of a 1000 holds. than why did he keep doing the same 7 over and over again. if you want change-ups see a guy like karl gotch to me he was one of the best wrestlers ever.... not many  now up to his standard.

[Montague]

i agree with you about not changing things up another guy highly ranked was dean malenko, often called man of a 1000 holds. than why did he keep doing the same 7 over and over again. if you want change-ups see a guy like karl gotch to me he was one of the best wrestlers ever.... not many  now up to his standard.

Sadly, it seems that a lot of Dean's North American work was repetitive. Interesting that you bring up Karl Gotch; he actually was the one to train both of Boris Malenko's boys, Joe & Dean - a fact that he frequently mentioned over the years. I wonder if part of Dean's limited repertoire here was due to the talent he regularly worked with. I remember reading that was a problem for Sin Cara when he arrived in the Fed.

Funk, if you want to see some better Malenko footage, search through some of his Japan matches.

As for Gotch, I think he achieved his biggest success and notoriety in Japan, where he is credited with influencing & reshaping the landscape of the modern pro-style along with Inoki. He worked extensively in the New Japan Dojo teaching "his" style, which the Japanese workers would heavily incorporate in their matches.

[funk51]

Sadly, it seems that a lot of Dean's North American work was repetitive. Interesting that you bring up Karl Gotch; he actually was the one to train both of Boris Malenko's boys, Joe & Dean - a fact that he frequently mentioned over the years. I wonder if part of Dean's limited repertoire here was due to the talent he regularly worked with. I remember reading that was a problem for Sin Cara when he arrived in the Fed.

Funk, if you want to see some better Malenko footage, search through some of his Japan matches.

As for Gotch, I think he achieved his biggest success and notoriety in Japan, where he is credited with influencing & reshaping the landscape of the modern pro-style along with Inoki. He worked extensively in the New Japan Dojo teaching "his" style, which the Japanese workers would heavily incorporate in their matches.

good point about who you work with can sometimes make or break you {literally} if you miss a catch on a dangerous high flying move see sim snuka as a cameraman and undertaker when he did his dive outside the ring.

[Montague]

good point about who you work with can sometimes make or break you {literally} if you miss a catch on a dangerous high flying move see sim snuka as a cameraman and undertaker when he did his dive outside the ring.

Yeah, and a similar problem happened with Owen when he tried out for the Fed. Bret said the two of them had a solid match, which went fantastic and earned Owen another tryout at the following TV tapings with Vince in attendance. They put him in the ring with a local TV jobber, and the guy wasn't there for many of Owen's big moves. The biggest blow was that he didn't properly support Owen as he did that run up the middle of the ropes causing Owen to trip, get hurt, AND miss his big highspot.

Oftentimes, good workers are limited by the abilities of their opponents. That really holds true when when you're doing all that lucha-type stuff. That's why my favorite wrestler has always been Hennig, who was also a great worker, but his style was compatible with just about everybody. When the very thing that makes your performance great can be worked with anyone, you never have a bad match as a result of the other talent's shortcomings.

Curt could even masterfully cover botches, be it his own or his opponent's. He was just so smooth! Really, the only time Curt Hennig had a bad match was if HE HIMSELF was having a bad night.

[The Showstoppa]

Yeah, and a similar problem happened with Owen when he tried out for the Fed. Bret said the two of them had a solid match, which went fantastic and earned Owen another tryout at the following TV tapings with Vince in attendance. They put him in the ring with a local TV jobber, and the guy wasn't there for many of Owen's big moves. The biggest blow was that he didn't properly support Owen as he did that run up the middle of the ropes causing Owen to trip, get hurt, AND miss his big highspot.

Oftentimes, good workers are limited by the abilities of their opponents. That really holds true when when you're doing all that lucha-type stuff. That's why my favorite wrestler has always been Hennig, who was also a great worker, but his style was compatible with just about everybody. When the very thing that makes your performance great can be worked with anyone, you never have a bad match as a result of the other talent's shortcomings.

Curt could even masterfully cover botches, be it his own or his opponent's. He was just so smooth! Really, the only time Curt Hennig had a bad match was if HE HIMSELF was having a bad night.

Agree on Curt.  He was very similar to Flair in that regard.  You think of some of the stiffs that Flair had to carry, especially early on, guys like Rufus R. Jones would have to be carried to hour long draws at at times.  I remember Flair talking about it in his book.

Curt got a lot of the same experience in the AWA where some of the top guys during his run weren't anywhere near his class when it came to in-ring.  Scott Hall being the exception. 

Flair really came into his own when he could work with guy like Steamboat, japanese wrestlers, Race, etc... but he was able to carry Dusty, Lex and way too many others to mention to great heights.  Even Sting was nothing special when working with others, but Flair always clicked with him.

[Montague]

Agree on Curt.  He was very similar to Flair in that regard.  You think of some of the stiffs that Flair had to carry, especially early on, guys like Rufus R. Jones would have to be carried to hour long draws at at times.  I remember Flair talking about it in his book.

Curt got a lot of the same experience in the AWA where some of the top guys during his run weren't anywhere near his class when it came to in-ring.  Scott Hall being the exception. 

Flair really came into his own when he could work with guy like Steamboat, japanese wrestlers, Race, etc... but he was able to carry Dusty, Lex and way too many others to mention to great heights.  Even Sting was nothing special when working with others, but Flair always clicked with him.

I could never understand why Bret always referred to Hall as being green when he arrived in WWF. By that point, Scott had already had some time in up north in MN; he wasn't a jabroni.
Bret's also criticized Flair a lot over the years. For the facts you mentioned above - and many, MANY OTHERS - I don't know how anyone can dispute Flair's quality as a worker. Can you imagine carrying a guy who's dead weight for 60 minutes?

There was definitely something "magical" about Flair & Sting. I never disliked Borden's character, but there were times I was indifferent to his performances and/or angles. But, his matches with Flair never disappointed.

Dusty was a waste.

Flair feuding with Harley over the NWA gold probably gave that belt AND the position of champion more storied prestige than any angle in Alliance history!

[The Showstoppa]

I could never understand why Bret always referred to Hall as being green when he arrived in WWF. By that point, Scott had already had some time in up north in MN; he wasn't a jabroni.
Bret's also criticized Flair a lot over the years. For the facts you mentioned above - and many, MANY OTHERS - I don't know how anyone can dispute Flair's quality as a worker. Can you imagine carrying a guy who's dead weight for 60 minutes?

There was definitely something "magical" about Flair & Sting. I never disliked Borden's character, but there were times I was indifferent to his performances and/or angles. But, his matches with Flair never disappointed.

Dusty was a waste.

Flair feuding with Harley over the NWA gold probably gave that belt AND the position of champion more storied prestige than any angle in Alliance history!

Bret is Bret's biggest mark.  As others have stated, he had a very set in stone set of moves for a huge part of his career.  Flair became that after the late 90's or so, but proved over and over he could carry all types of lumps to above average matches.  The fact he floated between territories in the old NWA and had to have main events with whomever that area felt deserved it speaks volumes.  Bret made his early mark in Stampede where his daddy trained and booked everybody on the roster pretty much. 

The Flair vs Race angle was incredible here in NC.  When Orton took the bounty from Race and gave Ric a piledriver he received death threats! haha, can you imagine that now.  And they did a perfect job leading up the Starcade.

[Montague]

Bret is Bret's biggest mark.  As others have stated, he had a very set in stone set of moves for a huge part of his career.  Flair became that after the late 90's or so, but proved over and over he could carry all types of lumps to above average matches.  The fact he floated between territories in the old NWA and had to have main events with whomever that area felt deserved it speaks volumes.  Bret made his early mark in Stampede where his daddy trained and booked everybody on the roster pretty much. 

The Flair vs Race angle was incredible here in NC.  When Orton took the bounty from Race and gave Ric a piledriver he received death threats! haha, can you imagine that now.  And they did a perfect job leading up the Starcade.

I am so jealous of you! That must have been an AMAZING time AND place to be a wrestling fan!!

[The Showstoppa]

I am so jealous of you! That must have been an AMAZING time AND place to be a wrestling fan!!

haha, it was.  I had NO idea how lucky I was.  I have mentioned before that when I moved into town and got cable I could watch Mid-Atlantic and Georgia wrestling......I was in heaven! 

[Montague]

haha, it was.  I had NO idea how lucky I was.  I have mentioned before that when I moved into town and got cable I could watch Mid-Atlantic and Georgia wrestling......I was in heaven!  

We had nothing but McMahon-land up my way. ESPN did eventually broadcast some of Verne's shows, but that was after Vince stole all his best talent.

I occasionally would come across some smalltime program on at a very odd hour. I don't remember the name of the company, the channel, or any of the talent's names. But, thinking back, the one color guy did sound like Paul Heyman. I'm wondering if it was a very early ECW (still Eastern Championship Wrestling) broadcast. I may have channel-surfed right past the dawn of one of wrestling's greatest booms!

[OLE BIG]

Bret is Bret's biggest mark.  As others have stated, he had a very set in stone set of moves for a huge part of his career.  Flair became that after the late 90's or so, but proved over and over he could carry all types of lumps to above average matches.  The fact he floated between territories in the old NWA and had to have main events with whomever that area felt deserved it speaks volumes.  Bret made his early mark in Stampede where his daddy trained and booked everybody on the roster pretty much. 

The Flair vs Race angle was incredible here in NC.  When Orton took the bounty from Race and gave Ric a piledriver he received death threats! haha, can you imagine that now.  And they did a perfect job leading up the Starcade.

I have asked you to keep that quiet.