PIP Margerat Thatcher

[Raymondo]

do you accept that the trade unions were bank rupting the country

they were walking out of work over every little thing

they took us from manufacturing giant to the sick note of the world

someone had to stand up to them

I agree, someone had to reform them. What Thatcher did was destroy them and their industries, hoping markets would fill the void.

Go to Merseyside, see the outcome of that... almost thirty years later.

[Donny]

she had only one plan and that was to stop us getting stronger. Privatize everything, get her own way for the Bosses. Twist it anyway you want she fucked over the working man.

[Donny]

you guys are just getting my blood pressure up here.. 

[deviant]

I agree, someone had to reform them. What Thatcher did was destroy them and their industries,

They wouldnt/couldnt be reformed.

They were out of control....for fucks sake at one NUM meeting they voted for a 40% pay rise.

I can imagine the look on my employer's face if i went and asked for a 40% raise this week!....the unions had lost touch with reality, not helped by those at the helm.

The union leaders stopped working for their members and instead saw it as an ideological fight.....what chance did the British car industry have when the union leader was a committed communist (Derek Robinson by the way, who after his union tenure at British Leyland went on to become the national chair for the Communist Party of Great Britain)....

"between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".

Source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4294709.stm

200 million was a vast sum of money in the 70s....did these pillocks in charge of the unions just think the industry could shrug that loss off and carry on?!....523 walk-outs in two years, they were on strike more than they were at work!....how do you reason with cretins like that?

Maggie stomped them into the ground, good riddance.

[bigmc]

I agree, someone had to reform them. What Thatcher did was destroy them and their industries, hoping markets would fill the void.

Go to Merseyside, see the outcome of that... almost thirty years later.

you are an intelligent guy raymondo

but the unions were holding a knife to the throat of the economy and they were always spoiling for a fight

they would have refused to be reformed

the only way to address it was to take them on which she did

i disagree with alot of what she did but if she hadnt taken the unions on we would be romania now

[Donny]

Yeah Good riddance to Maggie..

[Raymondo]

you are an intelligent guy raymondo

but the unions were holding a knife to the throat of the economy and they were always spoiling for a fight

they would have refused to be reformed

the only way to address it was to take them on which she did

i disagree with alot of what she did but if she hadnt taken the unions on we would be romania now

See, that's where I disagree I think in a democracy you don't have such type of impasses, there are always choices.

Maggie had made the choice to have MI5 spy on the Scargill, I doubt she considered reforming the unions for one second. In her brave new world based on Milton Friedman's economic doctrines, unions had no place.

[gee38]

she set out to destroy my city


guess what maggie

liverpool is strong


you are worm food

we won

[bigmc]

See, that's where I disagree I think in a democracy you don't have such type of impasses, there are always choices.

Maggie had made the choice to have MI5 spy on the Scargill, I doubt she considered reforming the unions for one second. In her brave new world based on Milton Friedman's economic doctrines, unions had no place.

there is never balance my friend

there was no happy compromise

a prolonged stale mate would have left the country fucked

nice use of economic doctrines in your reply though  

[Donny]

See, that's where I disagree I think in a democracy you don't have such type of impasses, there are always choices.

Maggie had made the choice to have MI5 spy on the Scargill, I doubt she considered reforming the unions for one second. In her brave new world based on Milton Friedman's economic doctrines, unions had no place.

She just wanted to Destroy all Unions.. she wanted complete control.

[bigmc]

She just wanted to Destroy all Unions.. she wanted complete control.

like all women

[Donny]

like all women

yes true...

[Raymondo]

there is never balance my friend

there was no happy compromise

a prolonged stale mate would have left the country fucked

nice use of economic doctrines in your reply though  

A compromise isn't always happy, is it? What Thatcher did was very far from compromising, she didn't become the 'Iron Lady' by compromising... in the end her Cabinet stabbed her in the back because she couldn't compromise...

To use your analogy in the previous post - there are parts of the county today that look like Romania because of Thatcher, not despite of her. Child poverty was in low levels before she came into power, by 1990 it was 28%... child poverty- little kids with nothing mate.

[bigmc]

A compromise isn't always happy, is it? What Thatcher did was very far from compromising, she didn't become the 'Iron Lady' by compromising... in the end her Cabinet stabbed her in the back because she couldn't compromise...

To use your analogy in the previous post - there are parts of the county today that look like Romania because of Thatcher, not despite of her. Child poverty was in low levels before she came into power, by 1990 it was 28%... child poverty, little kids with nothing mate.

all good arguments

but what is the alternative

scargill was an out and out communist that wanted to bring the establishment down

you have to go back to post war britain where the seeds were sown for what was to follow

by the time thatcher came in we had two polar opposites fighting for the soul of the country

where do you think we would be now if she lost?

[Raymondo]

all good arguments

but what is the alternative

scargill was an out and out communist that wanted to bring the establishment down

you have to go back to post war britain where the seeds were sown for what was to follow

by the time thatcher came in we had two polar opposites fighting for the soul of the country

where do you think we would be now if she lost?

If she had lost in 79 her party would have thrown her to the dogs... they didn't like having a woman tell them what to do- not until she proved she was totally ruthless.

A more moderate Tory would have come to power after a few years... perhaps someone like Heseltine.

If she had lost, we would probably be more like northern Europe today. Very high taxes, very low income inequality, excellent public services, reasonable house prices, etc. More socio-democratic as opposed to dog-eat-dog "the market will take care of it" capitalist which is what we are now.

[bigmc]

If she had lost in 79 her party would have thrown her to the dogs... they didn't like having a woman tell them what to do- not until she proved she was totally ruthless.

A more moderate Tory would have come to power after a few years... perhaps someone like Heseltine.

If she had lost, we would probably be more like northern Europe today. Very high taxes, very low income inequality, excellent public services, reasonable house prices, etc. More socio-democratic as opposed to dog-eat-dog "the market will take care of it" capitalist which is what we are now.

part of the reason we moved from a manufacturing based economy to financial services was down to the unions fucking up the industry

we probably agree that a shift back to a more manufacturing based economy would put us in a much stronger position maybe similiar to Germany

i agree that the way she shifted the economy towards a system that encouraged a selfish money grabbing approach hasnt helped but i believe she was niave in that she though the rich would have the morality to stimulate the economy by reinvesting their wealth rather than hiding it from the tax man

she ultimately tried to make an aspirational britain based on the American anyone can be president model

but british people have a much diferent mentality some might argue we are architects of our own downfall

[Donny]

 

[Donny]

my membership pass for the European Left Party in Germany

[GigantorX]

Good conversation!

Taking a step back (and as an American) could many of the problems that Britain faced and Britain's decline in the 60's-70's be placed at the feet of PM Clemente Attlee? Wasn't it he and his government that nationalized whole industries/utilities, began what was to be the NHS, enlargement of social services, large govt. role in the economy etc etc etc? The auto industry and British-Leyland is shinning example of that. That was pretty extreme and it would seem that Thatcher was the pendulum swinging the other way.

Just my opinion.

[Donny]

well i am not a Communist by any means but am Left orientated. I was also elected here and was in politics active.

[gee38]

so you are implying that free health care, education and nationally owned industry are bad things to be discouraged?

seriously.

for what it is worth I earn in the highest bracket in the UK. I am happy to pay taxes at a higher rate- I neither want nor expect tax breaks. However the tories just now have given me a tax break. why?

its nonsense.

I would happily be heavily taxed if it meant getting education back to being free or subsidised and or the NHS back to where it belongs.

also pull us out of petro-wars, regulate the bankers and their 'bonus system' for fucking up. you should just a country by how they help or treat those who are least able to help themselves- eg the elderly and the poor. we used to be good at it. since thatcher and her doctrine we have gone downhill.


the tories look after the rich and the idiots who think they can break into the old school tie network- you can't its a closed shop but the carrott they offer will bring the naive into line.

the wealthy protect the wealthy- and rely on working the poor over. not for me.

[bigmc]

so you are implying that free health care, education and nationally owned industry are bad things to be discouraged?

seriously.

for what it is worth I earn in the highest bracket in the UK. I am happy to pay taxes at a higher rate- I neither want nor expect tax breaks. However the tories just now have given me a tax break. why?

its nonsense.

I would happily be heavily taxed if it meant getting education back to being free or subsidised and or the NHS back to where it belongs.

also pull us out of petro-wars, regulate the bankers and their 'bonus system' for fucking up. you should just a country by how they help or treat those who are least able to help themselves- eg the elderly and the poor. we used to be good at it. since thatcher and her doctrine we have gone downhill.


the tories look after the rich and the idiots who think they can break into the old school tie network- you can't its a closed shop but the carrott they offer will bring the naive into line.

the wealthy protect the wealthy- and rely on working the poor over. not for me.

do drug dealers pay taxes 

[gee38]

haha!

 

[Coach is Back!]

so you are implying that free health care, education and nationally owned industry are bad things to be discouraged?

seriously.

for what it is worth I earn in the highest bracket in the UK. I am happy to pay taxes at a higher rate- I neither want nor expect tax breaks. However the tories just now have given me a tax break. why?

its nonsense.

I would happily be heavily taxed if it meant getting education back to being free or subsidised and or the NHS back to where it belongs.

also pull us out of petro-wars, regulate the bankers and their 'bonus system' for fucking up. you should just a country by how they help or treat those who are least able to help themselves- eg the elderly and the poor. we used to be good at it. since thatcher and her doctrine we have gone downhill.


the tories look after the rich and the idiots who think they can break into the old school tie network- you can't its a closed shop but the carrott they offer will bring the naive into line.

the wealthy protect the wealthy- and rely on working the poor over. not for me.

Why do you say its "free"? You're getting taxed to death for inadequate care.

[deviant]

If she had lost, we would probably be more like northern Europe today. Very high taxes, very low income inequality, excellent public services, reasonable house prices, etc.

Fuck that.

A mate had a Danish girlfriend for a while, we went over to visit and were stunned at how expensive a beer was in the bars we visited, her and her friends all drink before going out because its prohibitively expensive to spend an evening just sat in a bar with friends drinking....likewise the motorcycle i ride was about twice as expensive over there, coupled with high taxes i'd likely not be able to afford my current lifestyle over there....i would have a tiny disposable income and for what?....some wishy washy notion of greater equality, a government that tells me what i need and charges me accordingly instead of allowing me the choice to provide for myself.

Socialist policies baby a population, they infer that individuals are stupid and that the government knows best in the most condescending of ways.

No thanks, i'll take the Thatcher model any day of the week.