Author Topic: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever  (Read 2684 times)

Hugo Chavez

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Some dang good points...


Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
By Damon Linker | The Week – Fri, May 3, 2013

America should not intervene in Syria. But a pair of presidential screw-ups may force us to.

War drums are beating once again in Washington.

The Syrian civil war has left 70,000 dead over the last two years. Roughly 1.3 million people have been driven from their homes, with some living in caves to escape the shelling. The stories are horrifying. No one with a conscience can fail to be moved by the suffering of the Syrian people or outraged by the actions of Bashar al-Assad's dictatorial regime in Damascus. But that doesn't mean that calls for the U.S. to intervene militarily make sense. On the contrary, such suggestions are profoundly foolish.

The case for intervention has been weak from the beginning, and it's been getting steadily weaker. Yes, the rebels oppose the execrable Assad regime, but many of them also appear to be jihadists. Would a post-Assad Syria be more free or less free than it is now? More democratic or less democratic? Better for women or worse for women? No one knows. Recent press reports indicating that at least some of the rebels are allied with al Qaeda certainly don't inspire high hopes. (Sometimes the enemy of our enemy is an even worse enemy.) Then there's the fact that Russia and China continue to oppose any action to topple the Syrian dictator, and flagrantly antagonizing them could make U.S. policymaking much more complicated in other parts of the globe.

Why, then, are the interventionists gaining traction now? Because last August President Obama warned the Syrian dictator that he considered the use of chemical weapons in the conflict a "red line" — and it now appears that Assad has crossed it.

On this the interventionists are right: When the president makes a threat, he has to follow through on it — otherwise, our ability to deter Iran, North Korea, and China (in the Taiwan Strait) will be severely undermined. Which means that Obama may be about to get us mixed up in yet another war in the Middle East.

This may be his gravest foreign policy blunder to date.

The president's decision to lay down his red line on chemical weapons was based on two errors in judgment — one large, and one small.

The first error is hardly unique to Obama; in fact, it's made constantly in the nation's capital. When atrocities are committed, when innocents suffer, when cities are shelled, when citizens are turned into refugees and children into orphans, the instinctual response among Washington politicians, journalists, and policy wonks is to assume we need to "do something" to stop it. While the instinct is admirable, it is based on the unexamined assumption that the United States has the same moral duties as an individual human being. It does not.

If a strong and well-armed individual refuses to come to the aid of someone being assaulted, we judge that person harshly — because his obligations are clear: He should defend the victim, even at the risk of injury to himself. If he displays a willingness to sacrifice his own well being in the act of fulfilling his moral duty, we call him selflessly courageous; it he doesn't, we denounce him for cowardice and selfishness. That's how moral judgment works.

But it's not how statesmanship works. The primary duty of the nation's commander in chief — the duty that overrides all others — is to uphold the common good of the United States and protect the rights of individual American citizens. If that sounds selfish, that's because it is. And rightly so. The president's duty is to us. He can have no duty to the citizens of another nation. That's why the greatest acts of statesmanship will always be more self-interested than the highest acts of individual virtue.

In keeping the United States out of the Syrian conflict for the past two years, Obama has showed that he understands this. But in laying down his now-transgressed "red line" on chemical weapons, he showed that he doesn't understand it well enough. It's as if the president wants to have it both ways: to be a tough-minded realist who puts American interests first, but also to become an idealistic do-gooder (who, like all presidents, salves his conscience by ordering other people — the nation's soldiers — to sacrifice themselves) once a certain line has been crossed. And Assad has called Obama's bluff.

Did Obama at least draw his moral line in a sensible place? Unfortunately, we have reason to doubt that, too — and therein lies his second mistake. Chemical weapons are very bad, of course. But are they categorically worse than aerial bombardment of civilian targets using conventional weapons? Both, after all, produce piles of corpses and leave large numbers of victims maimed and disfigured. The end result in both cases is horrifying. Should one provoke a military response while the other does not? If Obama thinks so, he has yet to make the case.

cont... http://news.yahoo.com/why-syria-may-obamas-gravest-foreign-policy-blunder-061600285.html

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2013, 10:50:17 AM »
I can guarantee....  If Americans were spilling blood on the streets of Syria right now, people in the USA would be IRATE.   

We've lost a lot of lives in Iraq, afghanistan and all over the world in the past 5 years of Obama rule.  We "keep the peace" in a lot of places already. 

At some point, the USA needs to say "Okay, we are helping out in the 50 places.  We cannot help out in 60 places" or whatever number.

And why hasn't the rest of the world stepped in?   

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2013, 11:02:54 AM »
I can guarantee....  If Americans were spilling blood on the streets of Syria right now, people in the USA would be IRATE.   

We've lost a lot of lives in Iraq, afghanistan and all over the world in the past 5 years of Obama rule.  We "keep the peace" in a lot of places already. 

At some point, the USA needs to say "Okay, we are helping out in the 50 places.  We cannot help out in 60 places" or whatever number.

And why hasn't the rest of the world stepped in?   


You really believe America's foreign policy is about helping?

"And why hasn't the rest of the world stepped in?"

lol, because no one want's to meddle in people's business unless it serves them.

America is an empire than has mastered the art of double speak and propaganda.

I love how presidents keep getting up on the podium spouting off asinine shit like "we invaded Iraq to bring them liberty and freedom".

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 04:21:06 AM »
Israel has already intervened militarily by bombing various chemical weapons depots within Syria.

I almost laughed out loud when I heard the newscaster make the claim that "Israel was defending itself when it bombed a Syrian government chemical weapons facility inside Syria. ::) ::)

When reports start coming in about drones or other technology detecting traces of chemical weapons in the air, you have to ask yourself if chemical weapons have truly been deployed, ...or whether they are simply detecting the residue of chemical weapons blown up by Israel?

How can one blow up a chemical weapons facility without releasing those very weapons into the air?

Is Israel attempting to manipulate maneuver the USA into position to justify putting boots on the ground?

...or are they clearing the population out of an area they hope to soon annex, ...while leaving the modern infrastructure intact?
w

GigantorX

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 04:50:46 AM »
Israel has already intervened militarily by bombing various chemical weapons depots within Syria.

I almost laughed out loud when I heard the newscaster make the claim that "Israel was defending itself when it bombed a Syrian government chemical weapons facility inside Syria. ::) ::)

When reports start coming in about drones or other technology detecting traces of chemical weapons in the air, you have to ask yourself if chemical weapons have truly been deployed, ...or whether they are simply detecting the residue of chemical weapons blown up by Israel?

How can one blow up a chemical weapons facility without releasing those very weapons into the air?

Is Israel attempting to manipulate maneuver the USA into position to justify putting boots on the ground?

...or are they clearing the population out of an area they hope to soon annex, ...while leaving the modern infrastructure intact?

Wasn't that attack on the chemical depots a couple of years ago or is that the strike on the nuclear facilities? The strike Israel a few days a go was on surface to surface missiles that were heading to Hezbollah for use in Lebanon.

I think, I haven't been keeping up lately.

I will say that the "LINES!!!" that have been drawn are totally arbitrary and useless, what's the point? You're dealing with a totally unstable situation where you can only hope that at least ONE of those in conflict is a rational actor.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 07:57:35 AM »
maybe syria lacks the natural resources to make it worth the risk?   I mean, they have some oil, but what do they rank worldwide?  Worth a 3rd war and all the headache that goes with it?  Are there easier places to get gas?

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 08:04:40 AM »
The worse thing Obama could do is provide assistance to the Islamists in Syria.  The idea of the enemy of my enemy is my friend has caused the United States a lot of blowback in the past.
A

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 08:12:53 AM »
obama is gonna get criticized no matter what the move.

*Most* repubs said we had no business going in.  (Except mccain and the warmongers).

Common sense dictated we have 2 wars, we cannot afford a 3rd.

Now "Obama is a FAIL because he won't invade syria"....

Sorry, obama fails on many levels, but we can't solve all the world's problems.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 08:22:37 AM »
obama is gonna get criticized no matter what the move.

*Most* repubs said we had no business going in.  (Except mccain and the warmongers).

Common sense dictated we have 2 wars, we cannot afford a 3rd.

Now "Obama is a FAIL because he won't invade syria"....

Sorry, obama fails on many levels, but we can't solve all the world's problems.

Maybe he shouldn't have opened his fucking mouth and drew a red line then, eh?

Your pandering for this guy is so pathetic it's sad.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2013, 08:25:10 AM »
Maybe he shouldn't have opened his fucking mouth and drew a red line then, eh?

Your pandering for this guy is so pathetic it's sad.

LOL I haven't watched the news much lately.  Was the red line for the use of chemical weapons?

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2013, 08:29:15 AM »
Let's see....If its established Chemical Weapons are being used there and we don't do something what does that make our foray into Iraq in 2003 look like?  lol

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2013, 08:32:57 AM »
LOL I haven't watched the news much lately.  Was the red line for the use of chemical weapons?

It stuns me that you comment on stuff that you have no idea about. Yes, the Obama regime established this "red line" months ago.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2013, 08:34:45 AM »
It stuns me that you comment on stuff that you have no idea about. Yes, the Obama regime established this "red line" months ago.

I come to getbig to learn.  beats watching cable news. 

what do you think obama should do?  bomb/invade?  I mean, he shoudn't have drawn that line unless he planned on backing it up.

So what now?  invade or sit on thumbs?

Fury

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2013, 08:41:26 AM »
I come to getbig to learn.  beats watching cable news. 

what do you think obama should do?  bomb/invade?  I mean, he shoudn't have drawn that line unless he planned on backing it up.

So what now?  invade or sit on thumbs?

Here's an idea: he shouldn't have opened his mouth in the first place.

I'm curious as to why he disputed the UN's charges that it was the rebels who used the Sarin. Sounds like he wants to invade.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2013, 08:42:09 AM »
Here's an idea: he shouldn't have opened his mouth in the first place.

I'm curious as to why he disputed the UN's charges that it was the rebels who used the Sarin. Sounds like he wants to invade.

I agree he shouldn't have said that.  What SHOULD we do?  I dont think we should invade.  I think it sucks, but we can only extend ourselves so far.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2013, 08:51:08 AM »
I agree he shouldn't have said that.  What SHOULD we do?  I dont think we should invade.  I think it sucks, but we can only extend ourselves so far.

I think we should sit and watch Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah kill each other.

However, that is not relevant to the issue. The issue is that Obama drew a red line in the sand about Assad's use of chemical weapons. If we can only extend ourselves so far then you don't go drawing red lines in the sand and making empty threats.

However, all the Obama regime had to do was say that they agreed with the UN's report that it was the rebels who used the sarin gas and not Assad. Instead, the Obama regime disputed it. Why would they do that if they didn't want to invade? Obama had an easy out for his asinine comments (for now) and instead he digs himself into the hole.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2013, 09:31:34 AM »
we dont know (yet) if it in an empty threat. 

If it ends up being the case, ,he looks weak and impotent.

however, there is still a chance the sun goes down and obama drops 100 JDAMs on them.  Can't evaluate the situation quite yet.  But yes, if he does nothing, he looks weak and soft.  Great to let em kill each other - cause you know the moment USA boots hit the ground, the bad guys call a truce and turn their guns on us :(

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2013, 09:53:40 AM »
Reports are out that it might have been the rebels who used chemical weapons. 

And this is who O-TWINK wants to support?

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2013, 10:24:47 AM »
Reports are out that it might have been the rebels who used chemical weapons. 

And this is who O-TWINK wants to support?

Rubio intro'd a bipartisan bill to arm/give $ to these rebels using chemical weapons.

http://www.casey.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/?id=f5cef2e4-ad70-4026-b014-ae30b57a26d9

He is more like Obama every single day.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2013, 10:25:45 AM »
Rubio intro'd a bipartisan bill to arm/give $ to these rebels using chemical weapons.

http://www.casey.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/?id=f5cef2e4-ad70-4026-b014-ae30b57a26d9

He is more like Obama every single day.

No kidding - stop diverting.   


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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2013, 10:33:36 AM »
Wasn't that attack on the chemical depots a couple of years ago or is that the strike on the nuclear facilities? The strike Israel a few days a go was on surface to surface missiles that were heading to Hezbollah for use in Lebanon.

I think, I haven't been keeping up lately.

I will say that the "LINES!!!" that have been drawn are totally arbitrary and useless, what's the point? You're dealing with a totally unstable situation where you can only hope that at least ONE of those in conflict is a rational actor.

It was a few days ago. I was reading in various Israeli papers that the IDF had bombed a chemical weapons facility..
...with nary a peep out of western media. Then a few days later, North American media started saying it was other types of munitions headed for Lebanon.

Rational? If there's any rational thinking in all this... I can't see it. Supplying arms, financing and god knows what else to AlQ to destabilize, and overthrow yet another gov't? Ya that's real rational. For the Israeli's to weaken the capabilities of the existing gov't in place, (by striking their facilities) and in so doing assisting the cause of AlQ terrorists fighting against the legitimate government of Syria is not very rational to me. But Israel has never appeared rational to me. Taking delivery on a nuclear sub in the midst of a nuclear non-proliferation summit spells more of chutzpah than rationality.

It appears that Israel is systematically pissing off it's top allies in the region.

First Turkey, then Egypt, ...if I were Saudi, ...I'd be very nervous about what Israel was planning next?

And if the US decides that Israel is too much of a liability, ...they may be painting themselves into a very dangerous corner.

As someone once wisely pointed out... the enemy of my enemy can sometimes be an even worse enemy.
w

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2013, 10:39:20 AM »
No kidding - stop diverting.   



I've already said obama was 100% wrong to draw a line, that we shouldn't intervene, and that is that.

now I'm learning which dems and repubs agree with his idiocy about arming the rebels.

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2013, 02:54:44 AM »
maybe syria lacks the natural resources to make it worth the risk?   I mean, they have some oil, but what do they rank worldwide?  Worth a 3rd war and all the headache that goes with it?  Are there easier places to get gas?

Syria is a strategic ally of Iran, ...one of the few places left on this planet without a Rothschild owned or controlled central bank.

They've been knocking them off one by one.

Libya was one, but as soon as they got rid of Gaddafi, ...up went a Rothschild's bank.

If I'm not mistaken... Iran & N. Korea, and one other whose name momentarily escapes me are the only one's left
w

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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2013, 05:29:27 AM »
UH OH: Obama Says We Have A 'Moral Obligation' In Syria
 


Agence France Presse|40 minutes ago|235|1
 

US President Barack Obama said Tuesday he had both a moral and a national security obligation to stop the slaughter in Syria, but warned he could not just act on a "hope and a prayer."
 
Obama defended his government's actions in sending large quantities of humanitarian aid to Syrian refugees, providing non-lethal help to rebels and isolating President Bashar al-Assad in the international community.
 
"I think that understandably, there's a desire for easy answers," Obama said, referring to domestic critics who are demanding a more proactive US role, including an operation to arm rebel groups and a no-fly zone.
 
"My job is to constantly measure our very real and legitimate humanitarian and national security interests in Syria, but measuring those against my bottom line, which is, what's in the best interests of America's security."
 
Obama said that he could not make decisions "based on a hope and a prayer, but on hard-headed analysis in terms of what will actually make us safer and stabilize the region."
 
"I think that we have both a moral obligation and a national security interest in, A, ending the slaughter in Syria but, B, also ensuring that we've got a stable Syria that is representative of all the Syrian people and is not creating chaos for its neighbors," he said.
 
The president spoke as political critics complain that he has not acted more quickly on reports that Syrian forces had used chemical weapons, an action he had previously said would infringe a red line and be a game-changer.
 
He said that before acting, Washington must first establish exactly who had used chemical weapons and when, in an apparent reference to the flawed intelligence that led America into war with Iraq.
 
"I don't make decisions based on perceived," he said, when asked by a reporter about perceived violations of US red lines.
 
"I can't organize international coalitions around perceived. We've tried that in the past, by the way, and it didn't work out well."
 
"There have been several instances during the course of my presidency where I said I was going to do something, and it ended up getting done.
 
"In the end, whether it's bin Laden or Kadhafi, if we say we're taking a position, I would think at this point, the international community has a pretty good sense that we typically follow through on our commitments."
 




Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-moral-obligation-in-syria-2013-5#ixzz2ShgcTvfz


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Re: Why Syria may be Obama's gravest foreign policy blunder ever
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2013, 10:53:06 AM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/us-syria-aid-humanitarian_n_3237964.html


Obama the layabout spendthrift grifting looter he is - sending $100 Million to Syria


FORWARD!!!!!!