Benefits of building a natural base

[Borracho]

Other than having training and diet knowledge acquired through natural training before joining the "dark side" as many say, what are other benefits of reaching your natural limits?

[bravo]

rhetorical question, right?

[Blake]

Who knows. 

And I honestly think this is a question very, very few people could answer.  The reason?  There are likely extremely few people (if there are any at all) who have truly reached their natural genetic limits.

From the standpoint of steroids, while I don't think a complete newbie should start using the day he begins training, I also don't think you need to wait years and years pursuing your "natural genetic limit" before seeking performance enhancement.

My $.02

[Loomis]

It's just unnecessary. Reach your genetic limit naturally, then use a little gear to push past that.

[DIVISION]

Other than having training and diet knowledge acquired through natural training before joining the "dark side" as many say, what are other benefits of reaching your natural limits?

Learn the basics and gain a foundation of quality muscle maturity up through your mid-twenties and once you have everything down by all means start using AAS.

It's not really a matter of a "natural limit", moreso just waiting 'till your body is primed and your mind has all the information and experience before you turn to the "Dark Side" of the force.

If you are strictly going for a natural limit, you may not reach that until your mid thirties and that's assuming consistent training with no major setbacks.

You are either in this game or sitting on sidelines, there is no in-between.

Learn this.




DIV

[BIGMIKE]

AGREE WITH DIV.THERE'S NO FENCE RIDING WHEN IT COMES TO THIS.IT'S ALL OR NOTHING...

[Borracho]

Okay here's the deal,

I'm 24 years old and I've been training for almost 4 years, feel I can still grow naturally. I had set a time frame of 8 years natural training before I touch anything. But now I'm questioning that length of time. I'm definetely gonna juice cause I'll need it reach my goals, the issue is not if I'm going to.....its a matter of when.

I've heard a few people say that if you've maximized you're natural potential that you'll be better able to hold on to gains from a cycle. But, I've also heard the opposite. Where people say that if you juice when you're close to you're natural limit, the mass you gain wont be able to be maintained by your natural hormone state.

Any input?

[bravo]

Regardless of reaching your genetic natural maximized state, the human body has a pre-programmed natural homeostatic state that it will try to maintain.  Exogenous AAS will infact shift this homeostatic state towards hypertrophy as desired (yes, possibly with all of the associated sides that accompany it). And just as expected, it will revert to its prior state as as much as possible once exogenous input is discontinued...(search a before/ after of Kevin Levrone, for example)

There is no time limit on reaching this natural limit.  It is regulated as a function of metabolic nutritional input and the stresses we place on the body.  Work = force X distance.  Hypertrophy = work + adequate metabolic nutrition + repetition + genetics + (time/rest?). These are all variables in a grand equation of achieving your natural  that will change the desired result with just the smallest of incremental variations.

Few, if any, athletes will be able to figure out this equation and maximize the results naturally without AAS.  That's just the way it is.

You mention some time based goals.  What are they?  If you plan on making a career out of gaining these results in a short time, then the writing is on the wall, so to speak.

[Luv2Hurt]

I like what bravo wrote, very good post.  I think you should try and build a good base.  IMO this takes 2-3 years of OBSESSED bodybuilding training.  I mean you live, sleep and eat BB in a proper manner.  The training MUST be consistant enough and so must the diet.  Then you will only go as far as your genetics allow.  For me I can build a pretty good physique naturally, much better on the sauce and I don't have to watch the diet as much when juiced.  But fu*k I really like being BIG and STRONG.

You mentioned you must reach your goals?  Why is that?  Don't pressure yourself that way, it could lead to rash decisions. 

"I saw her today at the reception
In her glass was a bleeding man
She was practiced at the art of deception
Well I could tell by her blood-stained hands
You can’t always get what you want
You can’t always get what you want
You can’t always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need"

Richards, Jagger

[DIVISION]

Regardless of reaching your genetic natural maximized state, the human body has a pre-programmed natural homeostatic state that it will try to maintain.  Exogenous AAS will infact shift this homeostatic state towards hypertrophy as desired (yes, possibly with all of the associated sides that accompany it). And just as expected, it will revert to its prior state as as much as possible once exogenous input is discontinued...(search a before/ after of Kevin Levrone, for example)

There is no time limit on reaching this natural limit.  It is regulated as a function of metabolic nutritional input and the stresses we place on the body.  Work = force X distance.  Hypertrophy = work + adequate metabolic nutrition + repetition + genetics + (time/rest?). These are all variables in a grand equation of achieving your natural  that will change the desired result with just the smallest of incremental variations.

Few, if any, athletes will be able to figure out this equation and maximize the results naturally without AAS.  That's just the way it is.

^Thanks for making this point to him.

By its very nature, the body wants homeostasis.  That's understood.  Anything above and beyond that is "unnatural".  In essence, when we use AAS we are defying our genetic predisposition.  We are determining what our ceiling will be, at least for the time we are "on".  The determining factors as to whether you keep permanent gains once you are "off" are a combination of nutrition, training, sleep. 

Take care of your body it will take care of you.





DIV

[Luv2Hurt]

Cool post DIV!!  Thanks for your side of it all,  Merry Christmas to you and thanks for helping for out bro!  You sound like a cool guy who would make a great friend...thanks again and keep doing what you do

L2H

[DIVISION]

Cool post DIV!!  Thanks for your side of it all,  Merry Christmas to you and thanks for helping for out bro!  You sound like a cool guy who would make a great friend...thanks again and keep doing what you do

L2H

You as well, Hurt2Luv.

Take care of yourself......

Be safe.





DIV

[Borracho]

I appreaciate all your opinions. I consider myself lucky cause I've been able to keep on gaining muscle and I believe I can continue doing so naturally. My goal is simple really and that is to be the biggest fucker on the planet. LOL
My goal is just to be big and proportionate and the size I wanna get to will definately require steroids.

I don't have aspirations of making a living of my physique cause we all know most people in this business make peanuts. Not worth it for the amount of risks involved.

So for now I'm gonna keep on training hard, eating every three hours and resting like I have been for the past few years. I'm not ready for the dark side yet and when the time comes I'll know for sure.

[Captain Equipoise]

I want to add my opinions to the fray..  unlike a lot of my friends, I did build a good solid natural base, I'd already been working out for 4 years before I decided to 'go to the dark side' as DIV puts it   in that time I went from an athletic 165-170 to a beefy and full 215. I didn't try gear until I'd spent years reading about it and researching it, I was 23 at the time and felt I was ready to get to the next level. Personally I think it's very important to build a base, I see a lot of guys start juicing without ever having even stepped inside a gym, they basically start both steroids and working out (for the first time) at the same time. That to me is retarded, everything these guys gain on gear (which isn't very much to begin with) dissapears 2 months after they discontinue gear, even sadder since no one tells them (and they're too lazy to reserach) most of them don't even know about PCT and coming off properly so they end up with depression, mood swings and all sorts of other crap that some of us vets have learned to avoid with proper PCT.  I don't think anybody under the age of 21 or 22 should be touching gear, your body is still growing at that point and releasing crazy amounts of test and gh on it's own. That's just my 2 cents though.

[Overload]

i think it's very important to have at least 5 years under your belt before using gear. you need to know what works for you naturally so you can apply it once you get on the sauce. don't be one of those guys in the gym that takes a gram of test a week for his first cycle but only eats 2 meals at jack in the box every day so he can pick up chicks at the local bar. do it right, if you know how to make progress naturally you can apply most of that once you are enhanced. i've been training for 7 years naturally and i can out lift most of the gear users in my gym because they don't know jack shit about nutrition, recovery and proper training for strength. i recently started my very first mild cycle and i have made "insane" gains in only 4 weeks. i could only imagine what would happen if i used more but i believe in making progress with the least amount possible and taking it one step at a time. i'm also very happy i trained natural as long as i did before making the turn. when training natural i relied on proper recovery and nutrition to make my gains. if you apply this while being "on" there is no doubt you will make impressive gains. most of all read as much info as you can on PCT and the likes before making the turn.

 

[DIVISION]

.....read as much info as you can on PCT and the likes before making the turn.

....once you make that decision, there's no turning back.

It is your destiny.




DIV

[Arnold jr]

....once you make that decision, there's no turning back.

It is your destiny.




DIV

So true...once you start, training without absolutely sucks

[Borracho]

Thanks for the replies Captain and Overload. All the best on your first cycle Overload and keep us updated on your gains.

[Luv2Hurt]

You know i love the dark side, and it is fun to be jacked.  But I think someone if they want can cross back over if they want.  yes training natural is harder and you see less results, but there is a certian satisfaction from it.  Me been off since august and will admitt the training natural is still fun.  Not as impressive but still fun nothing less.  still makes me feel good.  But I have always my whole life enjoyed being on the outlaw side.

[DIVISION]

You know i love the dark side, and it is fun to be jacked.  But I think someone if they want can cross back over if they want.  yes training natural is harder and you see less results, but there is a certian satisfaction from it.  Me been off since august and will admitt the training natural is still fun.  Not as impressive but still fun nothing less.  still makes me feel good.  But I have always my whole life enjoyed being on the outlaw side.

Of course you can, Hurt2Luv.

The point I was making is that once you cross over nothing will ever be the same again.  If you go off you will forever know what it felt like to be "on" and thus you will not look at things the same way again. 

I'm not saying training isn't fun regardless, just that it's not the same.  This is truth.




DIV   

[Luv2Hurt]

THE/VISION

I know and do agree with your point, yes true.  Kinda like once you have lobster, shrimp is never the same....or something like that.

was just trying to make it more clear for some who may be wondering.

[freeagain]

i take a more pragmatic view of steroid useage ....

we all know the guys down the gym who train like their life depends on it , eat like a horse but gain very little.

to a guy like this .. if after 9 months of diligently pluggin away with few gains i would imediately get him on the juice... trainin natural , the poor guy is wastin his time.

in fact i would start a juicin program for anyone who have exhausted their initial explosive gains ..... the ones that dry up after 4 to 6 months or so.

its an efficency argument ...... do i want to train 5 years with slow gains or any gains at all ... or do i want 3 years gains in 10 months of juicin??

its quite simple... roids get you from a to b much quicker... as soon as you get your trainin and dietin schedule embedded into your lifestyle.... hit the anabol tub or test amp asap.

just my two penneth worth!

[DIVISION]

i take a more pragmatic view of steroid useage ....

we all know the guys down the gym who train like their life depends on it , eat like a horse but gain very little.

to a guy like this .. if after 9 months of diligently pluggin away with few gains i would imediately get him on the juice... trainin natural , the poor guy is wastin his time.

in fact i would start a juicin program for anyone who have exhausted their initial explosive gains ..... the ones that dry up after 4 to 6 months or so.

its an efficency argument ...... do i want to train 5 years with slow gains or any gains at all ... or do i want 3 years gains in 10 months of juicin??

its quite simple... roids get you from a to b much quicker... as soon as you get your trainin and dietin schedule embedded into your lifestyle.... hit the anabol tub or test amp asap.

just my two penneth worth!

I would agree with your assessment provided they guy in question was at least mid-twenties and already had a few years training under his belt.

Otherwise I think it would be a waste.  He needs to understand how to lift and the fundamentals as well as know his body and what it reacts to.

It's a process spanning years, not months...........not something I would rush for the sake of fast gains.

Efficiency is one thing, but at what cost?   





DIV

[freeagain]

oh c'mon DIV ... some guys who been a trainin even a few months, you just know thay aint gonna grow ... keepin em natural for a couple of years is just wastin their time.

get em on a newby test and/or dbol cycle.

[DIVISION]

oh c'mon DIV ... some guys who been a trainin even a few months, you just know thay aint gonna grow ... keepin em natural for a couple of years is just wastin their time.

get em on a newby test and/or dbol cycle.

I suppose there are hardgainers.......but I'd probably exhaust all means before throwing them to the "Dark Side", esp at such a tender age.

I'd forcefeed them, up their intensity and training........anything to spark some growth.





DIV