What went wrong after 1998?

[MisterGX]

Yates in 97 was a gift , Yates in 94 was not , no one complained about Dorian's win in 94 , and even Shawn Ray said he got the place he deserved so on paper Yates got one gift and Coleman got a gift in 98 by virtue of ripped glutes & tigher hams , 2001 he got a  huge gift and you can make a hard case for Levrone in 2000 and 2002 , but either way Coleman has many more close calls so who is overrated? 

NEITHER

[NarcissisticDeity]

Yates started the trend of guys winning with guts and Coleman took if from him and went running , either way its not acceptable and isn't what the sport is about.

[sculpture]

Yates in 97 was a gift , Yates in 94 was not , no one complained about Dorian's win in 94 , and even Shawn Ray said he got the place he deserved so on paper Yates got one gift and Coleman got a gift in 98 by virtue of ripped glutes & tigher hams , 2001 he got a  huge gift and you can make a hard case for Levrone in 2000 and 2002 , but either way Coleman has many more close calls so who is overrated? 

I still fail to see how 98 was a gift by virtue of ripped glutes and tighter hams. You make it out like these dont matter. Stop acting a fool. Had wheeler won would he of been given a gift? Perhaps by virtue of his detailed upper back? I outlined why levrone could win in 2000 or 2002 (smaller legs, outmuscled from the back) yet you ignore this.

[NarcissisticDeity]

I still fail to see how 98 was a gift by virtue of ripped glutes and tighter hams. You make it out like these dont matter. Stop acting a fool. Had wheeler won would he of been given a gift? Perhaps by virtue of his detailed upper back? I outlined why levrone could win in 2000 or 2002 (smaller legs, outmuscled from the back) yet you ignore this.

98 they could have went with Flex Wheeler on name alone , he was the heir apparent it was his destiny to be the next Mr Olympia , everyone knew it was his contest to lose and he did , believe me lady luck shined down on Coleman that night , especially considering Coleman wasn't even favored to win entering thr contest , the heavy favorites in that conest were Flex , Shawn , Nasser and Kevin , I'm not saying Ronnie didn't deserve to win but you'd be a fool to think he wasn't lucky that night.

[sculpture]

Yes but wheeler could be considered lucky aswell when you take into account his flaws. It doesnt matter if it was "wheelers destiny" he choked as usual and up stepped ronnie coleman who was every bit th winner that night. Stop trying to take away from ronnies victory that night. His is a great story, making his mr o debut at 15th and his highest placing before 98 was 6th, yet he never quit once and made it to the top

[NarcissisticDeity]

Yes but wheeler could be considered lucky aswell when you take into account his flaws. It doesnt matter if it was "wheelers destiny" he choked as usual and up stepped ronnie coleman who was every bit th winner that night. Stop trying to take away from ronnies victory that night. His is a great story, making his mr o debut at 15th and his highest placing before 98 was 6th, yet he never quit once and made it to the top

Thats what makes the story so great is he was an underdog and it was a close victory but make no mistake he was in a bit part lucky and he was damn lucky Flex wasn't 100% because if he would have lost outright.

[GMCtrk]

Thats what makes the story so great is he was an underdog and it was a close victory but make no mistake he was in a bit part lucky and he was damn lucky Flex wasn't 100% because if he would have lost outright.

I don't think ANYONE can beat flex when flex is at 100%

[sculpture]

Don't fall the bullshit that people peddle about flex wheeler and him bein the greatest. He wasn't, he was narrow, had problems conditioning his lower body, had obvious site injections in calves, arms and delts and was a bit of prick to boot

[NarcissisticDeity]

Don't fall the bullshit that people peddle about flex wheeler and him bein the greatest. He wasn't, he was narrow, had problems conditioning his lower body, had obvious site injections in calves, arms and delts and was a bit of prick to boot

In my opinion Flex Wheeler in 1993 ASC shape would outright beat Dorian Yates nevermind Ronnie Coleman , reguardless of his flaws , I wanted Flex to beat Dorian , if that was the case perhaps this gut thing wouldn't be here today.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Don't fall the bullshit that people peddle about flex wheeler and him bein the greatest. He wasn't, he was narrow, had problems conditioning his lower body, had obvious site injections in calves, arms and delts and was a bit of prick to boot

Flex won the first 4 Pro shows he enetered and placed 2nd in his first Mr Olympia , oh yeah theres nothing great about that 

[GMCtrk]

Don't fall the bullshit that people peddle about flex wheeler and him bein the greatest. He wasn't, he was narrow, had problems conditioning his lower body, had obvious site injections in calves, arms and delts and was a bit of prick to boot

None of that was an issue in 1993. But after that with the car wreck, the judging standards (mass game) and the kidney condition flex could never be at 100% again like 1993.

[Hulkster]

Hold on a minute:

I am reading this correctly:

1) ND is saying that the most contoversial Mr. O. since 1980 (1994) was NOT a gift? ND, you should read the what the mags said about it at the time. 

Musclemag (back when it used to have THE best contest reports in the industry at the time) essentially wrote a well argued essay on how arguments for BOTH Kevin and Shawn to have beaten Dorian that night. He was that out of shape:


Yates was a shell of his former self in 94.

and 2)

why in the world do people STILL insist that 98 was a hams and glutes contest.  That was only a very small part of why Ronnie won. Ronnie won on the basis of taper, width and most of all CONDITIONING.  Here is a shot from the contest to show exactly why Ronnie won,  and it has nothing to do with glutes and hams:


look at how soft and puffy flex looks compared to Ronnie.  His win had little to do with glutes and hams, and all to do with width, and overall hardness.

so, ND, stop saying that Ronnie won simply because he had glutes and hams!

[Hulkster]

More flat looking than anything else.  Definitely, Shawn should have won in '96.  What do you think about Dorian's first Mr. O victory in '92.  Another one of Shawn's best conditions, and they placed him fourth.  He definitely should have been second ahead of Levrone.  Personally, I thought he should have won that Mr. O.

I think Shawn got screwed placing fourth, and I think a lot of that had to do with politics. Dorian was in Flex's position in 98, only he showed up in shape, so there was no way he was not going to win. Kevin had just won the NOC and was the hottest new name on the pro circuit at the time.  Shawn should have easily beaten Labrada that year. 

[Borracho]

I can't believe you're still arguing Hulkster. Ronnie Coleman is the man gh gut and all.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Hold on a minute:

I am reading this correctly:

1) ND is saying that the most contoversial Mr. O. since 1980 (1994) was NOT a gift? ND, you should read the what the mags said about it at the time. 

Musclemag (back when it used to have THE best contest reports in the industry at the time) essentially wrote a well argued essay on how arguments for BOTH Kevin and Shawn to have beaten Dorian that night. He was that out of shape:


Yates was a shell of his former self in 94.

and 2)

why in the world do people STILL insist that 98 was a hams and glutes contest.  That was only a very small part of why Ronnie won. Ronnie won on the basis of taper, width and most of all CONDITIONING.  Here is a shot from the contest to show exactly why Ronnie won,  and it has nothing to do with glutes and hams:


look at how soft and puffy flex looks compared to Ronnie.  His win had little to do with glutes and hams, and all to do with width, and overall hardness.

so, ND, stop saying that Ronnie won simply because he had glutes and hams!

Look Dorian was off no doubts about that but for you to say it was the most contoversial O since 1980 is nonsense , Shawn Ray himself said he got the place he deserved , so where is the controversy?  I have most of the magazines from 94 and they all said he was off durring the prejudging and tightened up for the night show , they said his tan sucked and his biceps were noticabley different

Here is a news flash Shawn Ray was NEVER a threat to Yates , just like he was NEVER a threat to Haney , he was an excellent bodybuilder he looked great in 93/94/96 etc but it was never going to happen for him , the only threat to Yates was Flex and if Flex competed in 94 he would have won but Ray or Levrone was never in the running.

And Flex lost the 98 Olympia and Ronnie just happened to be the right guy at the right time !! he didn't beat Flex at his best , he couldn't anyway Ronnie did have an slight edge on conditioning particually in the glutes & hamstrings and he won a very close contest but he still won and thats all that matters  , Flex was ripped but not like he was at the 93 ASC he had cross striations in his quads , Ronnie didn't anyway he had soft glutes & hams his legs from the back looked blury and thats why Ronnie edged him out.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Flex March 1995 quote from Kevin Levrone " I told him ( Yates ) that I thought he was sharper on the tour than at the O , and I knew he was the winner "

Okay so Shawn says he got the place he deserved at the 94 Olympia and Kevin says he knew Yates was the winner and its the most controversial Mr Olympia since the 1980 lol nice try kid. 

[Hulkster]

Flex March 1995 quote from Kevin Levrone " I told him ( Yates ) that I thought he was sharper on the tour than at the O , and I knew he was the winner "

Okay so Shawn says he got the place he deserved at the 94 Olympia and Kevin says he knew Yates was the winner and its the most controversial Mr Olympia since the 1980 lol nice try kid. 

first of all, Kevin was stunned at coming in third in 1994.

Secondly, saying "I knew he was the winner" is simply Kevin commenting on the politics of the placing: by then all the pros knew that Yates could have shown up weighing 400 pounds with a peg leg and still be declared the winner.

Kevin saying that he "knew" that Dorian would win is totally different that kevin saying that Dorian "deserved" to win.

One is commenting on the oft-said line about the reigning mr. O. winning no matter what.

the other is commenting on how the Mr. O. showed up and shape and actually deserved his placing.

This is a distinction that you are missing.

And finally, Kevin was commenting on the grand prix England show in 1994 (where he came second to Yates) NOT the olympia itself.

[NarcissisticDeity]

first of all, Kevin was stunned at coming in third in 1994.

Secondly, saying "I knew he was the winner" is simply Kevin commenting on the politics of the placing: by then all the pros knew that Yates could have shown up weighing 400 pounds with a peg leg and still be declared the winner.

Kevin saying that he "knew" that Dorian would win is totally different that kevin saying that Dorian "deserved" to win.

One is commenting on the oft-said line about the reigning mr. O. winning no matter what.

the other is commenting on how the Mr. O. showed up and shape and actually deserved his placing.

This is a distinction that you are missing.

And finally, Kevin was commenting on the grand prix England show in 1994 (where he came second to Yates) NOT the olympia itself.

Hulkster wishfull thinking on your behalf and who are you to presume to speak for Kevin? here is the full quote

" Look I was really pissed about getting third at the Olympia , but I never said anything detrimental about Shawn ( Ray ) , the judges or anybody , I keep my mouth shut. " as long as Dorian and I have an understanding about where we stand with each other , thats all thats important to me . I told him I thought he was sharper on the tour than the O , and I knew he was the winner . "

So if we play your game where does Levrone say " I was really pissed about not winning the 1994 Mr Olympia "  oh thats right he doesn't bottom line he won and if I'm not mistaken with straight firsts as well.  and Shawn was happy with second and Kevin wasn't .

[Hulkster]

exactly. read the quote- kevin was talking about the Tour not the olympia itself. Dorian was indeed much sharper in the tour (I used to have the mag that had the review and dorian, other than the biceps of course, looked a lot better than at the O.

Kevin may not publicly trash Dorian's win, but I can't see how anyone could really be happy with Dorian getting firsts with the way that he looked that night..

I have to question whether or not Shawn was happy about loosing, according to what he has said on these boards about 1994, he was anything but, and if I recall, he pretty much lost all faith in the judging after that contest.

he continued because he loved to bodybuild, not because he felt that he had any real control over whether he could win the O. or not.

After all, if YOU showed up looking like Shawn did in 94 and still lost given the way that Dorian did, wouldn't you feel the same way?

I know I would..


 
Shawn should be a two time Mr. Olympia right now..

So, Shawn, if you are reading this,

were you happy with second in 94?

[NarcissisticDeity]

exactly. read the quote- kevin was talking about the Tour not the olympia itself. Dorian was indeed much sharper in the tour (I used to have the mag that had the review and dorian, other than the biceps of course, looked a lot better than at the O.

Kevin may not publicly trash Dorian's win, but I can't see how anyone could really be happy with Dorian getting firsts with the way that he looked that night..

I have to question whether or not Shawn was happy about loosing, according to what he has said on these boards about 1994, he was anything but, and if I recall, he pretty much lost all faith in the judging after that contest.

he continued because he loved to bodybuild, not because he felt that he had any real control over whether he could win the O. or not.

After all, if YOU showed up looking like Shawn did in 94 and still lost given the way that Dorian did, wouldn't you feel the same way?

I know I would..

]
 
Shawn should be a two time Mr. Olympia right now..

So, Shawn, if you are reading this,

were you happy with second in 94?

Flex Magazine Jan 1995 Shawn Ray on his 2nd place at the 1994 Mr Olympia

" Tonight I feel that I got what I deserved . "
with a beaming smile , Shawn concluded " This is the first time in three years I haven't retired the night of the show and got drunk. "

[Palpatine Q]

Jay is overrated. Not as much as the Supreme Ruler of All Overratedness, Dorian Yates, but still overrated none the less

This is the most I've ever agreed with you, H.

[Double XL]

[Hulkster]

Flex Magazine Jan 1995 Shawn Ray on his 2nd place at the 1994 Mr Olympia

" Tonight I feel that I got what I deserved . "
with a beaming smile , Shawn concluded " This is the first time in three years I haven't retired the night of the show and got drunk. "

maybe not the night of the show, but Shawn sure as hell must have been drunk during that interview!

Shawn smoked Dorian that night. To quote Musclemags 94 Olympia contest review:

"other than the mind boggling thickness in the upper back, there was little else about Dorian's physique that overshadowed Shawn".

[GMCtrk]

That back double bi shot takes out Ronnie's back double bi.....

[Double XL]

That back double bi shot takes out Ronnie's back double bi.....

I HOPE YOU'RE JOKING.