Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!

[suckmymuscle]

Hey bro how are things?

If I remember correctly you live in FLA??

  Yeah. too bad we won't be doing that Titus fight...

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[theonlyone]

this is really stupid. if you like dorian you just put good pics of him and bad ones of ronnie. and if you like ronnie you put good ones of him and bad ones of dorian.

yeah the most just do that. And post like 12 pics in a post

Doryan still could have the powers to defeat current Ronnie if he knew what he should look like to make it happen.

[suckmymuscle]

yeah the most just do that. And post like 12 pics in a post

Doryan still could have the powers to defeat current Ronnie if he knew what he should look like to make it happen.

  You need to be an utter idiot, not to to realize, that Dorian looks far denser and more vascular than Ronnie, in this pic.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[ToxicAvenger]

and youre just a noob who's never juiced..unlike the older guys who'd rather side with good old dorian. You see, bias coming from dorian nuthuggers is obviously more authentic than the "noobs" who think ronnie is better

LOL

you prove my point in reverse 

[ToxicAvenger]

]


Dorian owned Ronnie every time they competed against each other,

the proof is in the pudding..

nuff said..

look it up noobs!

[ToxicAvenger]

Even dorian himself said Ronnie beats him..

so you'r saying you haven't read studies on pre and post competition physiology and behavioral changes?


look it up before ya yap...

so Dorian said something stupid when his test levels were running low...so what..   

[healthiswealth]

ToxicAvenger:

You speak as if bodybuilding is all about volume vs. density. There are many factors to consider, and all in all, I will say that Ronnie absolutely destroys Dorian. No contest.

[Oliver Klaushof]

The judging is based off the mandatory poses. Dorian tops Ronnie in most of the mandatories.  The E n  d .

[rocket]

Its funny how people always fire up those black and white grainy photos of dorian to further their density claims yet look at contest pics and you realise the guy was not that special on the pro stage.

[Oliver Klaushof]

The judging is based off the mandatory poses. Dorian tops Ronnie in most of the mandatories.  The E n  d .

[fathead]

Its funny how people always fire up those black and white grainy photos of Dorian to further their density claims yet look at contest pics and you realise the guy was not that special on the pro stage.

A 6 time Mr. Olympia champion "not that special on the pro stage"..... What the fuck are you smoking??

The man set new standards for size and condition in the sport and you're referring to him as basically B list pro.

[Platz]

Its funny how people always fire up those black and white grainy photos of dorian to further their density claims yet look at contest pics and you realise the guy was not that special on the pro stage.

Pass that crack pipe

[phyxsius]

Nobody beats Dorian in front lat spread. Haney came close but didn't dethrone Dorian of that pose

[rocket]

A 6 time Mr. Olympia champion "not that special on the pro stage"..... What the f**k are you smoking??

The man set new standards for size and condition in the sport and you're referring to him as basically B list pro.

Nice faulty logic there pal. 

As he was "nothing special" on the pro stage, standing next to levrone, ray etc he was still obviously an A list pro but quite frankly I would have went for ray/levrone in many of those cases.

[haider]

you prove my point in reverse 

hey, thats your argument, lol, I think I was jsut agreeing with you in a sarcastic way 

[pumpster]

Dorian reminds me of the token white NBA player. Skinheads on the DL come up with elaborate theories to support what they can't say overtly. 

Dorian has unusually great density, a good front lat that hides his weak points, and excellent calves.

On everything else-overall & on individual muscles, he's manhandled.

His arms are embarassing!

Consolation: He beats Jay.

Here you can see him looking over in admiration. Yates looks very good here. Then you look  over at the other guy..

[suckmymuscle]

Dorian reminds me of the token white NBA player. Skinheads on the DL come up with elaborate theories to support what they can't say overtly. 

Dorian has unusually great density, a good front lat that hides his weak points, and excellent calves.

On everything else-overall & on individual muscles, he's manhandled.

His arms are embarassing!

Consolation: He beats Jay.

Here you can see him looking over in admiration. Yates looks very good here. Then you look  over at the other guy..

  Except that Dorian has ACTUALLY destroyed that other guy onstage, while the reverse has never been true...

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[natural al]

It's 2 totally different physiques(apples and oranges). I'd pick Dorian.
front lat spread   DY            density  DY
side tricep      DY                 balance  DY
front double   RC                overall condition (dry graininess) DY
side chest   RC                    volume   RC
back lat spread  DY             shape/lines RC
Back double bi  RC              arms RC
ab and thigh   DY                calves DY
side quarter turns DY          abs  DY
front  relaxed  DY                chest RC
back relaxed  RC                 
If you break it down like this it very very close. 
I'd go as far as to say that the 1993 Dorian and 2003 Ronnie are the 2 best overall physiques ever.
Then Haney 1992, Ray 94, Levrone 94 and Flex 93 would round out my top 6.

not to be a dick but I think haney retired in 91 after his last olympia.

[Hulkster]

The people participating in this thread seem to fall into two camps:

Those that are right (my side) and those that are wrong ( )

No, seriously, they fall into these two schools of though:

1. Dorian was totally amazing from all angles, was super ripped, dense, and huge.

or

2. Dorian had great lats and calves, but had a horrible taper, soft quads, little  detail and vascularity over much of his body, little striations except for the lower back, weak arms in general, and generally was "nothing special" when viewed from the front.

I would like to explore this psychology a bit farther.

Question for those who think Dorian is awesome:

What do you think of Dorian's taper?
What do you think of his lack of detail/seperation in the quads?
What do you think about his lack of detail/seperation in the arms?


Personally, when we are comparing Dorian to Ronnie, I can't help but agree that from the front at least, Dorian was nothing special.

When you have Ronnie looking like this in some shots:




and Dorian getting destroyed from the front in shots like this:



Its hard not to agree that Dorian was "nothing special from the front"

Compare Dorian and Ronnie standing relaxed in the last two shots: Dorian always looked like this even when he was in shape: bad taper, no detail in the quads.

ronnie, on the other hand, when he was in shape, had a great taper and awesome quads and arms..and back..and delts..etc. etc.

I really don't undestand all the hype about Dorian.

Lets take for example his world famous lat spread:


from the waist up, I think we can ALL agree that no one touches Dorian in this pose...BUT look at how crappy the quads are! You can't even see the seperation between the muscle groups like you can in most amateurs!!

Dorian was all lats, calves and back.  But that was it. He suffered in almost every other aspect of a great physique..

As an example, notice how much more complete Ronnie's front lat spread looks, since quads are good and seperated.  With dorian, you have half a pose that looks good. With Ronnie, you get the whole picture.

[Hulkster]

The other comment that keeps popping up is that we are comparing "apples to oranges".

My question is: are we really??

A good phyisque should have the following;

-excellent taper (X-frame, V-taper)
-good vascularity
-detail and striations
-good muscle shape (esp. in the arms, delts and quads)
-mass (they are both about even here)


When using this "classical" criteria, its hard to see how Dorian is really the better physique over Ronnie's, since he is inferior in many, many of these aspects.

However, it seems that some of us don't care about any of these things and keep emphasizing that

"dry graininess" trumps ALL of those other things...

and to which I would reply:

 well, if dorian was so dry and grainy, why were his arms and legs so undetailed??

We are only comparing "apples to oranges" because Ronnie and Dorian are totally different.  One has  a great physique for the aforementioned reasons, the other is overrated beyond all belief..

[pumpster]

Except that Dorian has ACTUALLY destroyed that other guy onstage

A desperate, flawed example..
FYI Zane "destroyed" Schwarzenegger in an early contest.

What does that mean at the end of the day? Nice try.

Yates still blows. Especially the weak arms.

[Double XL]

DORIAN GETTING OWNED

BUMP

[Hulkster]

As ND would say - according to the "true bodybuilding criteria" of shape, mass, taper and detail, ronnie crushes Yates on all of these except for mass. However, as is obvious, they are both pretty even in terms of mass.

And, as Ronnie did, as Yates got bigger, he got worse:



Yates truly was, other than his lat spread (from the waist up only), nothing special from the front onstage..

Ronnie however, had a taper that Dorian would have killed for...

and quads that make Dorian's look like an amateur's..

Again, I don't really see what all the hype is about Dorian's physique. Here is the best arms forward most muscular I could find:


and once again, I see okay chest, good abs but shitty arms and quads..

Then, you look at Ronnie's version, also taken onstage:


not the greatest shot (the best one is that backstage black and white one, but then all the dorian freaks would cry foul saying it was not taken onstage), but it totally destroy's yates version.

Other than the lat spread, can someone please explain why Dorian was so good from the front again?? Unless you completely ignore arms and legs, I can't really see how dorian could be so special...

I for one, would LOVE to see ronnie vs. Dorian onstage, just to see Ronnie hit a biceps pose..


and have dorian run off the stage in fright!

[haider]

NO FUCKING COMPARISON!!

How can anyone in their right mind say that in those pics dorian is the better bb'er?

[pumpster]

That shot is sick. 

For comedy's sake, here's the same Yates pose..LOL

Yates has the edge in.....thongs..