dbol at beginning or towards end of test cycle? (for maximum muscle retention)

[Wolfox]

Just wondering which is better? And if it makes a difference in keeping gains?

this is for someone who would be doing a 15week test cycle and will be going off...no hrt dosages after.

[spiro]

Do it at the beginning. Doing it at the end will negatively effect your recovery.

[ProudVirgin69]

It won't really matter, try and run it for 8 weeks for any hope of lasting gains.

Probably run it towards the middle to boost your cycle

[Overload]

Use it at the beginning to kick start the cycle.

[Dago_Joe]

Begging.  It has a kickstart effect.  Love Dbol.  Makes me feel like a brute alpha male.

[OTHstrong]

at the beginning 

[Big Chiro Flex]

Do it at the beginning. Doing it at the end will negatively effect your recovery.

How so?

[spiro]

How so?

Dbol at good doses is pretty suppressive. I would taper things down if he really wants to come off. Or he could run low doses of dbol while test clears his system.

[dustin]

Do it at the beginning. Doing it at the end will negatively effect your recovery.

It's a drop in the bucket. No one, NO ONE truly recovers especially at the speed that guys online made it seem. Everyone seems to think that 4 weeks of nolva or clomid will patch everything right up. Tell that to an endo and they'll laugh. They'll expect you in for a couple of years which includes a couple of follow ups, but you'll still never feel the same way before steroids. Never.

Do the dbol whenever you need. I like the blast and cruise approach. Bodies are fragile and if you put on a ton of new muscle you need to train and eat hard before your body tolerates it. It'll go away as quickly as you gain it if you're not serious. That's why I recommend getting lean before you bulk because you have a lot of momentum, increased insulin sensitivity, higher GH production and a lot of psychological benefits.

When coming off, always taper off on just test alone. Even though test is suppressive, you won't have any massive changes in your body composition. I always stay on the same compounds for a few weeks, keep training and eating moderate and rest well before coming off. Last couple days before coming off I train much lighter, almost just pump workouts. That way when all the compounds really start leaving my system and test gets low, I'm not full of DOMS all over and can train harder and harder before I finally hit the bottom where hormones are obliterated. After you have those one or two abysmal workouts, it's all downhill from there.

I like taking a few 1000iu blasts of HCG and then 500iu a couple of times a week. But after about a month I do take some time off because you don't want to desensitize your leydig receptors or suppress your body even more (you can take too many gonadotropins, just like you can take too many anabolic steroids). Recovery is a sensitive thing. Just go to your primary care physician, play dumb and get them to monitor you, then get some good fertility meds and blood work. After you get the scripts, you can stop pretending to be stupid and tell your GP you've done tons of homework and are eager to help him help yourself with the recovery process.

[_aj_]

It's a drop in the bucket. No one, NO ONE truly recovers especially at the speed that guys online made it seem. Everyone seems to think that 4 weeks of nolva or clomid will patch everything right up. Tell that to an endo and they'll laugh. They'll expect you in for a couple of years which includes a couple of follow ups, but you'll still never feel the same way before steroids. Never.

Do the dbol whenever you need. I like the blast and cruise approach. Bodies are fragile and if you put on a ton of new muscle you need to train and eat hard before your body tolerates it. It'll go away as quickly as you gain it if you're not serious. That's why I recommend getting lean before you bulk because you have a lot of momentum, increased insulin sensitivity, higher GH production and a lot of psychological benefits.

When coming off, always taper off on just test alone. Even though test is suppressive, you won't have any massive changes in your body composition. I always stay on the same compounds for a few weeks, keep training and eating moderate and rest well before coming off. Last couple days before coming off I train much lighter, almost just pump workouts. That way when all the compounds really start leaving my system and test gets low, I'm not full of DOMS all over and can train harder and harder before I finally hit the bottom where hormones are obliterated. After you have those one or two abysmal workouts, it's all downhill from there.

I like taking a few 1000iu blasts of HCG and then 500iu a couple of times a week. But after about a month I do take some time off because you don't want to desensitize your leydig receptors or suppress your body even more (you can take too many gonadotropins, just like you can take too many anabolic steroids). Recovery is a sensitive thing. Just go to your primary care physician, play dumb and get them to monitor you, then get some good fertility meds and blood work. After you get the scripts, you can stop pretending to be stupid and tell your GP you've done tons of homework and are eager to help him help yourself with the recovery process.

I wonder about this. I have pestered my doc in the past about TRT and my numbers were a little too high for him to justify it. If I come in with crashed test, he might get suspicious since he ain't no dummy. Just play dumb?

I am just getting my head around the notion that I am probably gonna be on some level of TRT for life once I start. Since I am almost 50 and my levels are dwindling, I probably shouldn't worry too much about that...

[OTHstrong]

It's a drop in the bucket. No one, NO ONE truly recovers especially at the speed that guys online made it seem. Everyone seems to think that 4 weeks of nolva or clomid will patch everything right up. Tell that to an endo and they'll laugh. They'll expect you in for a couple of years which includes a couple of follow ups, but you'll still never feel the same way before steroids. Never.

Do the dbol whenever you need. I like the blast and cruise approach. Bodies are fragile and if you put on a ton of new muscle you need to train and eat hard before your body tolerates it. It'll go away as quickly as you gain it if you're not serious. That's why I recommend getting lean before you bulk because you have a lot of momentum, increased insulin sensitivity, higher GH production and a lot of psychological benefits.

When coming off, always taper off on just test alone. Even though test is suppressive, you won't have any massive changes in your body composition. I always stay on the same compounds for a few weeks, keep training and eating moderate and rest well before coming off. Last couple days before coming off I train much lighter, almost just pump workouts. That way when all the compounds really start leaving my system and test gets low, I'm not full of DOMS all over and can train harder and harder before I finally hit the bottom where hormones are obliterated. After you have those one or two abysmal workouts, it's all downhill from there.

I like taking a few 1000iu blasts of HCG and then 500iu a couple of times a week. But after about a month I do take some time off because you don't want to desensitize your leydig receptors or suppress your body even more (you can take too many gonadotropins, just like you can take too many anabolic steroids). Recovery is a sensitive thing. Just go to your primary care physician, play dumb and get them to monitor you, then get some good fertility meds and blood work. After you get the scripts, you can stop pretending to be stupid and tell your GP you've done tons of homework and are eager to help him help yourself with the recovery process.

Sorry bro I like you but this is utter Horse shit BIG TIME, I get my full production and my numbers go back to normal after 2-3 weeks tops. NOBOBY has had as much blood work done as me, I am a fucken lunatic and  fanatic.

If you do not get your numbers back in 4 weeks or less it is because you started your PCT too early while your test esters were still active counter acting the potency of the PCT, simple as that.

I will make a thread later explaining a protocol to follow for the end of a cycle and a PCT that will have your numbers back in no time, I swear to GOD 3 weeks max. Only exception is if you been juicing for years.

[spiro]

Sorry bro I like you but this is utter Horse shit BIG TIME, I get my full production and my numbers go back to normal after 2-3 weeks tops. NOBOBY has had as much blood work done as me, I am a fucken lunatic and  fanatic.

If you do not get your numbers back in 4 weeks or less it is because you started your PCT too early while your test esters were still active counter acting the potency of the PCT, simple as that.

I will make a thread later explaining a protocol to follow for the end of a cycle and a PCT that will have your numbers back in no time, I swear to GOD 3 weeks max. Only exception is if you been juicing for years.

Would like to here further explanation of this.because I tend to.agree with Dustin. After my first cycle years ago I followed a perfect pct protocol. All my meds were pharmacy grade too. Well I crashed so hard after that first cycle I was a complete mess. I didn't retain anything. I agree with Dustin after that first cycle your body is never the same.

[dustin]

I wonder about this. I have pestered my doc in the past about TRT and my numbers were a little too high for him to justify it. If I come in with crashed test, he might get suspicious since he ain't no dummy. Just play dumb?

I am just getting my head around the notion that I am probably gonna be on some level of TRT for life once I start. Since I am almost 50 and my levels are dwindling, I probably shouldn't worry too much about that...

Just play dumb. Get what you need done, son.

Sorry bro I like you but this is utter Horse shit BIG TIME, I get my full production and my numbers go back to normal after 2-3 weeks tops. NOBOBY has had as much blood work done as me, I am a fucken lunatic and  fanatic.

If you do not get your numbers back in 4 weeks or less it is because you started your PCT too early while your test esters were still active counter acting the potency of the PCT, simple as that.

I will make a thread later explaining a protocol to follow for the end of a cycle and a PCT that will have your numbers back in no time, I swear to GOD 3 weeks max. Only exception is if you been juicing for years.

ILU2bro (no homo)

I respectfully disagree though. You must be an anomoly. Maybe for a guy who's used dbol a few times or manned up and injected test once or twice. The ones that do are posting a couple of years later saying "What the heck, guys. You told me I'd recover" are the ones I feel sorry for. I've had dozens of tests when I got slammed with infertility and had countless candid discussions with my doctor. He treats all the juicers on the West Coast and has helped them all. And he's very privy to the online scene as that's where all his patients "educate" themselves, myself included. I jizzed in a cup and got blood work every week. I just had a requisition card and went in, got my blood work and the next day my results would be published online for me to check out.

All my first cycles I did cookie cutter PCTs but I still never felt the same. Even after using gonal f, HMG, HCG and all the gonadotropins you can get in Canada I never felt the same. Numbers are a small part of the equation, and are still very difficult to get in proper alignment after using AAS. What I'm advocating is looking at things differently. My numbers on paper are where they should be but I don't feel as solid as I did before using AAS.


People's entire perception of AAS and especially PCT are very skewed and unrealistic. People don't even recognize PCT for what it is, it's just fertility meds we take in hopes of speeding up what the body will do naturally. Sometimes we take too many and impede the natural recovery, or we don't take enough and recovery takes a lot longer than we'd hope and our physique suffers as a result, etc. Sometimes people respond differently. Or sometimes people get ripped off and take fake meds all together. That's why all these anecdotal reports are close to useless.

Even in a clinical setting with double blind placebo studies, you'll find so much variance that all we can do is take the findings with a grain of salt, get ourselves checked out, take legit meds and get bloodwork. The biggest thing to start changing is the perception though. That's why I hate all these cookie cutter guides or people saying "you'll be fine". No, none of us are doctors and none of us know that. I shot blanks into my wife for years even after coming off and being "perfectly recovered". I'm just one guy out of a million who looked at the superficial numbers and thought all was well because of the reassurance I got here. But this stuff needs to be dealt with a doctor in private.

Healthy now, happy, and got myself a beautiful baby girl. But no thanks to the bro advice out there that I realized too heavily on. Not blaming a soul by my own. Just wanting to present another side of the coin because I'd hate others to suffer in the same way I did. One thing I know we'll all agree on is that everyone's different, so just listen to people's experiences and keep them in mind as you go through your own journey. I WISH I would recover just by sniffing a crushed up nolva tablet and rubbing my nipples three times in a circular motion, but I got the shit end of the genetics stick and my endo says he's actually pin me closer to the middle. So apparently some people have it much worse!

[OTHstrong]

Would like to here further explanation of this.because I tend to.agree with Dustin. After my first cycle years ago I followed a perfect pct protocol. All my meds were pharmacy grade too. Well I crashed so hard after that first cycle I was a complete mess. I didn't retain anything. I agree with Dustin after that first ctrl your body is never the same.

well everyone reacts differently of course, you may not have a good recovery based on your genetics. I work with competitive bodybuilders and almost everyone recovers within weeks. Fuck my numbers sky rocket almost instantly, what is there more to say   explain further what?

[dustin]

well everyone reacts differently of course, you may not have a good recovery based on your genetics. I work with competitive bodybuilders and almost everyone recovers within weeks. Fuck my numbers sky rocket almost instantly, what is there more to say   explain further what?

I think he's concerned because not everyone just bounces back. Some people have it worse than I do. Everyone I've met IRL, competitors included, all feel the same. Perhaps it's because we live up North and it's colder and darker here. We all hit the wall during recovery and get miserable. But online, everyone seems to magically bounce back with zero problems which causes me to speculate.

All I have is my personal experience and second hand encounters from friends who've had to see endos as well. Maybe there's something in our water, I don't know. We all recover on paper at some point but nothing like guys online. A guy's got to watch out for himself, and I think when dealing with hormones it's best to err on the side of caution. Hopefully all my ranting is for naught and the OP recovers like a bull. But who knows until all is said and done? No one right now. Best to look at all possibilities, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

[Overload]

Depending on how long i'm on, it has taken 6-8 weeks to get my Test levels going again.  PCT makes a big difference, but it always takes me a few months to get back to within normal range.

When i came off a long 3 years cycle, it took about 8 months for my levels to return to normal.

These days i just blast and cruise while getting blood work done every 3 months or so to make sure everything is good.

[OTHstrong]

I think he's concerned because not everyone just bounces back. Some people have it worse than I do. Everyone I've met IRL, competitors included, all feel the same. Perhaps it's because we live up North and it's colder and darker here. We all hit the wall during recovery and get miserable. But online, everyone seems to magically bounce back with zero problems which causes me to speculate.

All I have is my personal experience and second hand encounters from friends who've had to see endos as well. Maybe there's something in our water, I don't know. We all recover on paper at some point but nothing like guys online. A guy's got to watch out for himself, and I think when dealing with hormones it's best to err on the side of caution. Hopefully all my ranting is for naught and the OP recovers like a bull. But who knows until all is said and done? No one right now. Best to look at all possibilities, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

long esters double or triple the recovery process, all the people I work with or in the South western Ontario bodybuilding scene, short esters are the norm

[OTHstrong]

Depending on how long i'm on, it has taken 6-8 weeks to get my Test levels going again.  PCT makes a big difference, but it always takes me a few months to get back to within normal range.

When i came off a long 3 years cycle, it took about 8 months for my levels to return to normal.

These days i just blast and cruise while getting blood work done every 3 months or so to make sure everything is good.

Ya but you are a veteran, the OP was talking about a 15 week cycle.

[dustin]

long esters double or triple the recovery process, all the people I work with or in the South western Ontario bodybuilding scene, short esters are the norm

Short esters are the norm for smart lifters. Everyone in Canada who's new to juicing always gets tempted by the T400 and T500 blends. Then they text me and ask for a ride to the hospital because the sketchy Test9000 they bought off some sketchy dealer has their injection site pulsing with pain.

Short esters for me all the way. Would only ever use a long ester gear if it was given to me for free.

[Big Chiro Flex]

Short esters are the norm for smart lifters. Everyone in Canada who's new to juicing always gets tempted by the T400 and T500 blends. Then they text me and ask for a ride to the hospital because the sketchy Test9000 they bought off some sketchy dealer has their injection site pulsing with pain.

Short esters for me all the way. Would only ever use a long ester gear if it was given to me for free.

May sound like a rookie question but....why does it matter? Test is test, nandrolone, nandrolone. Why do u care about ester so much, unless you just don't wanna wait for it to kick in?

[macos]

Short esters are the norm for smart lifters. Everyone in Canada who's new to juicing always gets tempted by the T400 and T500 blends. Then they text me and ask for a ride to the hospital because the sketchy Test9000 they bought off some sketchy dealer has their injection site pulsing with pain.

Short esters for me all the way. Would only ever use a long ester gear if it was given to me for free.

I never try those 500mg/ml blends. Cut mix, bulk mix, etc.

[tstmaniac]

It's a drop in the bucket. No one, NO ONE truly recovers especially at the speed that guys online made it seem. Everyone seems to think that 4 weeks of nolva or clomid will patch everything right up. Tell that to an endo and they'll laugh. They'll expect you in for a couple of years which includes a couple of follow ups, but you'll still never feel the same way before steroids. Never.

Do the dbol whenever you need. I like the blast and cruise approach. Bodies are fragile and if you put on a ton of new muscle you need to train and eat hard before your body tolerates it. It'll go away as quickly as you gain it if you're not serious. That's why I recommend getting lean before you bulk because you have a lot of momentum, increased insulin sensitivity, higher GH production and a lot of psychological benefits.

When coming off, always taper off on just test alone. Even though test is suppressive, you won't have any massive changes in your body composition. I always stay on the same compounds for a few weeks, keep training and eating moderate and rest well before coming off. Last couple days before coming off I train much lighter, almost just pump workouts. That way when all the compounds really start leaving my system and test gets low, I'm not full of DOMS all over and can train harder and harder before I finally hit the bottom where hormones are obliterated. After you have those one or two abysmal workouts, it's all downhill from there.

I like taking a few 1000iu blasts of HCG and then 500iu a couple of times a week. But after about a month I do take some time off because you don't want to desensitize your leydig receptors or suppress your body even more (you can take too many gonadotropins, just like you can take too many anabolic steroids). Recovery is a sensitive thing. Just go to your primary care physician, play dumb and get them to monitor you, then get some good fertility meds and blood work. After you get the scripts, you can stop pretending to be stupid and tell your GP you've done tons of homework and are eager to help him help yourself with the recovery process.

When I came off after being on for 1 year on a heavy cycle I was very shut down for like 10months and I was 22 at the time.. I recently just came off of a very short mild cycle and I'm currently doing a clomid restart.. I take 25mgs Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and will do so for 6 months..that's after running 4 weeks of clomid and nolvadex... I'll keep you posted on how I feel after..we talked about this before in PMs and I completely agree with what your saying about not feeling completely like you did before ever touching a cycle.. I am very concerned about my sperm counts and will take a good couple years off because I want to have kids in the near future

[OTHstrong]

May sound like a rookie question but....why does it matter? Test is test, nandrolone, nandrolone. Why do u care about ester so much, unless you just don't wanna wait for it to kick in?

I notice a different feeling on esters and the body does react to them differently, the argument of test is test is not a valid one, just think what test no ester does right after a shot

[OTHstrong]

When I came off after being on for 1 year on a heavy cycle I was very shut down for like 10months and I was 22 at the time.. I recently just came off of a very short mild cycle and I'm currently doing a clomid restart.. I take 25mgs Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and will do so for 6 months..that's after running 4 weeks of clomid and nolvadex... I'll keep you posted on how I feel after..we talked about this before in PMs and I completely agree with what your saying about not feeling completely like you did before ever touching a cycle.. I am very concerned about my sperm counts and will take a good couple years off because I want to have kids in the near future

25mg of clomid 3 times a week is a extremely mild approach, if you want to start up quickly PCT as to be aggressive enough in a sort burst, no wonder it will take you 6 months.

[dustin]

I notice a different feeling on esters and the body does react to them differently, the argument of test is test is not a valid one, just think what test no ester does right after a shot

I agree wholeheartedly.

I've seen people argue about x mgs this and x mgs of that is the same, but I'm sorry - short esters for the win, no questions asked. Whether it's because it saturates the blood quicker or whatever, I don't care. Short esters are the best.

And no, I never run that T16 million blended gear either. The biggest blend I ever ran was a T300 mix when I first started. I would get red injection sites and any time I scratched my body I'd break out in hives. Terrible, terrible gear lol