The 5x5 wave sweeping the net....

[WOOO]

i do 6x6 for back once in awhile, just to switch things up

[davie]

Only for back 'wooo?'

davie

[Ahmster]

Bill Star was my strength coach in college. 5x5 by itself was only used as a break-in routine for those who never lifted weights before for the first 3 weeks. It also was really only 1x5 since the other 4 sets were warmups (ex: 135X5, 225X5, 315X5, 405X5, 495X5). The real routine that he used had you doing 8's on Mondays, 5's on Wednesdays and 3's on Fridays. Back-off sets of 8 were used on Friday and a few isolation exercises were thrown in done for 2 sets of 20 in order to not overstrain your joints which took a pounding from the heavy compound exercises. This minicycling kept your muscles guessing and was extremely effective. The routine was used for football players who by and large had a majority of fast twitch fibers and anything over 8 reps is not too effective for those types. The majority of the population wouldn't make the best gains on it since they would need higher reps to achieve size, but for football/strength athletes it was very effective. Take the Poliquin test (Max out, rest 10 minutes, max out at 85% of 1 rep max. Average fibers = 5 reps at 85%, Fast twitch = less than 5, Slow twitch =more than 5) to see your fiber type and if you have a majority of fast twitch give it a shot.

[davie]

Any chance u could type up that routine bro,soz2bother u?!
Im a rugby player (not at standard of pro football players,but i think b/c im rugby player). Maybe routine would be ok for me also+im curious at the what sport specific routines are like?

davie

[davie]

Is this the routine (think u might have typed it up before) or something similar??

Monday
Squats 4x8   
Press behind neck 5x5         
Bentrows 5x5                     
Bench Press 3x5,3x3, 2x8
Incline DB Press 2x20         
Incline Situps 1xmax

Wednesday
Squats 5x5                         
Good Mornings 4x10           
Incline Press 5x5   
Lateral raises 4x8             
Curls 2x20   
Dips 2x20
Hanging Leg Raises 1xmax

Friday
Squats 3x5, 3x3, 1x8
Deadlifts 3x4
Rear lat raises 3x6
Shrugs 3x8
Bench Press 4x8, 1x2
Close Grip Press 3x6
Curls 2x20
LTE's
Incline Situps 1xmax     

[WOOO]

Only for back 'wooo?'

davie

nah, chest and arms too... come to think of it, I have used it for anything other than legs

[Ahmster]

just get rid of the shoulder work from davie's routine and you pretty much have it.

[davie]

Why would u not want shoulder work in a routine like that??

Thats a part im wanting to bring up (very useful for rugby). SO that would kind of stop me from doing that routine,I take it its not supposed to be adapted or altered at all??

davie

[JPM]

To have Bill Star as your strength coach really must have been something. I've been reading his articles since  JR high. I know he has basicly one way to train, with maybe an exception now and than. But he does get results.

5X5's have been a staple for years for weight men, along with set's of 3's. This system has put on tons of muscle throughout the years. With the football players out here (SO Cal) those 5X5's include some quick lifts . When we get player's who are a little under sized and may need more attention, they go on a higher rep program of squats (breathing), presses, BP, rows, etc. Usually with-in a 4 to 6 week period a gain of 10lbs, all the way up to 20lbs, is the average. After the targeted weight muscle gain their back to basic football lifting. They do the weight gain, high rep squating, etc off season.   Good Luck.

Side Bar: I've had the opportunity to watch Reggie Bush workout a couple of times. Probably, pound for pound, one of the strongest football players around. And I compare him to some of the NFL guy's I've seen train.

[davie]

No alexx,cant say iv ever tried 20x20.
JPM, u know iv been very interested in that sort of training (ur beavy breathing workout) I am now in my rugby off-season so i suppose this is the time to try it.
I feel through the rugby season when i have other training for rugby i feel my split of
MON=upper
WED=lower
FRI=upper......................next week i do opposite so theres 2 lower workouts etc.

Is better for me, though for the offseason i am curious about sonmething slightly different.
My concerns that have really stopped me doing the high rep squatting ect are as follows:
Do u feel u have to have spotter there with u to help u (as much mental as anything) through tough last reps.

Am i right in saying apart from the 1 set squat and pullover/press, u just do 3 sets (of like 8 reps) of bench,rows and shoulder press (im wanting to work on shoulders)?
Is that right.there is no arm work,or are a couple hard sets bb rurls and pushdowns ok aswell??

davie

[brianmcg123]

Anybody ever try 20 x 20?

I never have done 20x20, but if you like those you should try my new routine, its 100x100.  Its a killer. 

[Ahmster]

the reason you don't need specific shoulder work is because you work them enough with the chest and back work. anything more and you won't make as many gains. the routine really works if you don't add anything else onto it which is kind of impossible for most gym rats on this board. that was Star's biggest pet peeve. he would kick guys out of the gym that did extra arm or shoulder work since all you were really doing was eating up gains that your big muscles needed. his other pet peeve was how most people are just plain pussies when it comes to training. they will find any excuse not to do the best exercises because they are too tough.

his program seems simple, but is actually very advanced and based upon the soviets weightlifting regimen of minicycling reps through the week instead of using periodization over the course of months. the soviets found that you lose most of the high rep benefits in a few weeks once you switch phases so it was smarter to do a periodization each week. 8's, 5's, & 3's. trust me when i say there are very few routines that are better than this one.

we also had to drink weight gain shakes after the workouts and before bed. we were told to sleep 10 hours a night as well which really helped in my opinion. by the end of my junior year i benched well into the 400's and squatted in the 600's without any anabolics, wraps or shirts or junk so called powerlifters use.

[WOOO]

I never have done 20x20, but if you like those you should try my new routine, its 100x100.  Its a killer. 

infinity x infinity

[davie]

Ahmster i believe u if u say u dont need to add stuff....i was just curious as i thought for football players shoulder work migh have been more important that chest work, my bad though!!

Did u find it helped with u gaining weight etc??Aslong as u wer eating right i guess.

davie

[davie]

U said u made great agins,do u still foloow this program today??

davie

[WOOO]

U said u made great agins,do u still foloow this program today??

davie

regardless of the response, i thin kyou need to change things up once in awhile... not that you have to reinvent the wheel, but every 6-8 months it's good to change the rotation

[JPM]

Just about every strength coach I've met (or clinic I've attented ) always seem to have their own little tweek's to a program. I can't disagree with Bill Star's methods, he's probably been successfull more years than I've been alive.  And certainly no disrespect to him. I've learned a lot from his articles over the years.

The overhead lift's  are usually included along with BP'ing  in most football strength improving programs. Out here anyway. Putting or holding a heavy weight over the head tends to be very important for athlete's. One of the reasons is that  jock's will develop better shoulder flexability and pushing power with the same exercise(s). Football weight training needs to have brief, demanding sessions. The same reason that cleans/hi-pull's are included, one of the benifits is the pulling power gained. When most people watch a football game the don't usually see how much pushing & pulling is going on both sides of the line the whole play. The BP can be just as important but the power angle is straight out or in front of the body.  Each version of the press (overhead/in front of) hit's the shoulder girdle/triceps and back at different degree's. The joint function can be improved, guarding against injury, by a balance of pressing styles (again-overhead/in front of) . Good Luck.

[davie]

JPM....My concerns that have really stopped me doing the high rep squatting ect are as follows:
Do u feel u have to have spotter there with u to help u (as much mental as anything) through tough last reps when doing heavy breathing squatting?

Am i right in saying apart from the 1 set squat and pullover/press, u just do 3 sets (of like 8 reps) of bench,rows and shoulder press (im wanting to work on shoulders)?
Is that right.there is no arm work,or are a couple hard sets bb rurls and pushdowns ok aswell??

To be honest this sort of program seems most appealing for teh next 6-8 weeks follwed by something along lines of ahmsters program. The shortness of the sessions is quite appealing as i am performing kind of manual labour over holidays and am walking about on feet all day, think we walked about 7 miles other day aswell as clearing a small forest.

davie

[davie]

ALSO, u know i dont doubt ur knowledge and experience when it comes to training, but i am kinda curious just how performing one heavy high rep set of squats stimulates so much growth (i no u perform other exercises, but u get what i mean)??

Oh and i thought ud b interested to know i found sum1 else that performs this style of training. He doesnt usually train at my gym, but hes been ther couple of times. He does v similar to workout u suggested b4 (but has had to avoid pullovers for last few weeks due to shoulder prob), His routine goes like this (seesm similar to something ud suggest  yes/no.

MONDAY=
Heavy breathing squats 1x20
Pullover OR pullover press 1x20
DB shoulder press OR PBN 2x8
BB Rows OR T-bar rows 2x8
Incline DB press 2x8
BB curl 2x8
Weighted Dips 2x8

WEDNESDAY=Same as monday

FRIDAY=BB Hack squats 2x20 (heavy breathing style)
Pullover press 1x10
Lateral raises 3x8
Front Pulldowns 3x8
Db Flat Bench 3x8
Hammer Curls 3x10
Pushdowns 3x12

davie

[WOOO]

Heavy breathing squats 1x20

[davie]

I also meant to ask u....as u are an easy gainer, do u think that summer u hit the weights ahrd and performed above routine and made the weight gain....do u think as an easy gainer you could have achieved sucha a weight gain if ud performed any routine. Or do u think the above workout definately helped??

davie

[Ahmster]

direct shoulder work is fine if you cut back on the chest work. his program was about improving football performance and not about bodybuilding so keep that in mind when using it for bodybuilding. in the 20 years i have been lifting this is the second most effective routine i have ever used but much easier to perform than the most effective. the most effective routine i ever used was the Bulgarian burst routine by Leo Costa. most people dismiss it, but boy did it deliver results. the problem was that you needed to work out twice a day at a minimum 6 days a week. the Bulgarian routine had the same concepts, but much more volume. only use it if you can sleep 10 hours a night and eat a ton of food. train each bodypart 3 times a week, with 3 exercises and 5 sets per exercise. train 2 months for size using reps of 10-12, 8-10, 6-8 for the 3 days each week and then after two months do 6-8,4-6, 2-4. you minicycled just like star, butyou kept the routines to just 45 minutes which is essential from a GH perspective for making gains so you need multiple sessions. An example for Legs would be:

Monday
Leg Extensions 5x10-12
Leg Curls 5x10-12
Hack Squats 5x10-12

Wedensday
Front Squats 5x8-10
Hack Squats 5x8-10
Leg Press 5x8-10

Friday
Squats 5x6-8
Leg Press 5x6-8
Hack Squat 5x6-8

[JPM]

With squating if you don't have  spotter's, rack, power rack, etc and run into  trouble and want to get from under the bar than you might consider either of two options.. Most guy's will shrug the shoulders back and jump forward so the bar will roll off or even be pushed off by the shoulders/traps. Some will drop the head /shoulder down and jump back away from the bar and usually land on their butts. Of the two I would always jump forward if the opportunity is there.

When I made my best gain on the heavy breathing squats I most always had two very large Samoan gentleman yelling in my ear's that they would shoot my dog and burn down my house if I didn't make the last two or three rep's in the breathing squats for that workout. Fear is a great motivator..

That would be one set of the the squat and 1 set's only of Presses, dips, BB rows, Hi-pulls. . Really no need for extra direct arm work. That is based on a 3 times a week workout. If you do twice a week workouts than add an extra set to all of the above exercises except the squat, until your body gets use to doing them in the heavy, high rep style(probably 2 weeks ).   Do straight arm pullovers after every set of breathing squats for 20  light stretch reps. Draw the legs up when doing the pullovers on a flat bench. This will allow for a better stretch, because when the legs are drawn up there is less resistence from the ab's.

I'll try to keep this simple thought it not always that way. This very heavy forced breathing style of squating (also can be used with the DL's, SLDL's, clean & jerks ..which are  prime ball buster's, HI-Pulls, etc.) puts great demands on the metabolism which in return can influence chemical release, including test & GH's, to  repair and adapt the body to the overwhelming stress put upon it. To meet these demands the body can become stronger and add muscle mass to ready it's self for the next workout. Remember to take three deep breathe before each rep and as many as you need between reps until you reach 20 or beyond.  Every workout add a least 5lbs to the bar. Most guy's can't do this type of workout. Way too much blood, sweat and tears for them. But is can be worth the effort in the long run. Of course, in the long run, it's up to you.Good Luck.

[JPM]

Actually you should not do any other workout plan. Focus on the high rep squating program only, twice or three times a week. That friday thing of your's is counter productive and could do more harm then good. That's all our football players (and other athletes) do when they must gain muscle mass and strength in a somewhat short period of time, the above mentioned squating program. The whole body is going to grow, nothing extra is needed. 8-10 reps are good for all the other exercises in that program.

If you do the high rep squating, with Serious Intent, you will not have the desire or energy to do anything else after the workout. This can be  a force of will training workout, as well as a physical one. The mental aspect will be just as important , maybe more so, when trying to meet the 20 rep goal each workout. And remember that at least 5lbs will be added to the next squat workout.You may even not want to do a second set of squats in the workout. Or may want to keep the other exercise down to only one set after all. This way of training can test the set of stones you think you have when it comes to tough training. Good Luck.

[davie]

OK thanks alot JPM, glad i cleard that up. I totally believe u wen u say just to stick to that routine, man 20 rep squat sets 3 times a a week,lol i must b nuts lol. But im gonna prove to myself that i can take it!!
Only reason i asked about slightly diff work on friday was b/c i want to add size to sidedelts and i felt i cant do that with just PBN or DB press?! Though if u think i can..

So here is workout to start on Monday....yikes haha:

MONDAY=
Heavy breathing squats 1x20
Pullover OR pullover press 1x20
SLDL 1x15
High pull 1x15 (only because thought u suggested it earlier-if not il leave it out).
DB shoulder press OR PBN 2x8
T-bar rows 2x8
Slight Incline DB press 2x8
BB curl 2x8
Weighted Dips OR pushdowns 2x8

(calf/forearm work at end).

davie