Pope Francis: Big Bang and evolution are real.

[SF1900]

your not getting a rise out of me tonight, however much you may want to sleep better with your boring worldview.

I have no intentions of getting a rise out of you.

What you call boring, I call "reality." I dont have to believe in spiritual or mysterious nonsense to make my life exciting.

Just looking up at the stars and the vast universe is excitement enough for me. I do not need to invent supernatural nonsense to make my worldview "exciting." That is idiotic. That is believing in silly nonsense just because you want your worldview to be "exciting."  If you need to believe in supernatural nonsense to make your life not boring, that is pretty sad.

[The True Adonis]

This is the problem: AA has such a poor rate of success that there are only a handful of people that actually benefit from it. Youre making it seem like there is overwhelming evidence that its a great program. Its not. Id rather get rid of all AA programs and have people start to attend programs that have been shown to be effective because we will be helping a larger amount of people. The fact that it helps such a small percentage of people is not good justification for keeping a poor treatment program around.

I did not say take anyone out of a program. AA should be gradually phased out and so that people who are initially seeking treatment for substance issues will go to treatment programs that are shown to be effective. If the "old timers" want to stick with AA that is fine. But all new referrals for substance use should be referred to treatment programs with evidence.

I am not letting my emotions get the best of me. I am speaking purely from an evidence-based perspective. Youre the one who keeps referring to your own personal experience. That's being driven by emotion.

[BigRo]

This is the problem: AA has such a poor rate of success that there are only a handful of people that actually benefit from it. Youre making it seem like there is overwhelming evidence that its a great program. Its not. Id rather get rid of all AA programs and have people start to attend programs that have been shown to be effective because we will be helping a larger amount of people. The fact that it helps such a small percentage of people is not good justification for keeping a poor treatment program around.

I did not say take anyone out of a program. AA should be gradually phased out and so that people who are initially seeking treatment for substance issues will go to treatment programs that are shown to be effective. If the "old timers" want to stick with AA that is fine. But all new referrals for substance use should be referred to treatment programs with evidence.

I am not letting my emotions get the best of me. I am speaking purely from an evidence-based perspective. Youre the one who keeps referring to your own personal experience. That's being driven by emotion.

Funny how you guys think you have stone cold objectivity because your "scientists"  Just talking in general, its a nice cover.

[BigRo]

I have no intentions of getting a rise out of you.

What you call boring, I call "reality." I dont have to believe in spiritual or mysterious nonsense to make my life exciting.

Just looking up at the stars and the vast universe is excitement enough for me. I do not need to invent supernatural nonsense to make my worldview "exciting." That is idiotic. That is believing in silly nonsense just because you want your worldview to be "exciting."  If you need to believe in supernatural nonsense to make your life not boring, that is pretty sad.

 I do not need constant excitement. I can sit in a dark room enjoying simply being without obsessive thinking.

[The True Adonis]

[SF1900]

Funny how you guys think you have stone cold objectivity because your "scientists"  Just talking in general, its a nice cover.

No, you moron, I am speaking objectively because I want on the SAMSHA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration) National Registry of Evidence-based Programs and Practices. Go ahead and present your evidence.

Here is a list of 200 evidence based treatments for substance abuse/issues. I believe AA did not even make the list.

http://nrepp.samhsa.gov/SearchResultsNew.aspx?s=b&q=substance%20abuse

[SF1900]

 

[Shockwave]

This is the problem: AA has such a poor rate of success that there are only a handful of people that actually benefit from it. Youre making it seem like there is overwhelming evidence that its a great program. Its not. Id rather get rid of all AA programs and have people start to attend programs that have been shown to be effective because we will be helping a larger amount of people. The fact that it helps such a small percentage of people is not good justification for keeping a poor treatment program around.

I did not say take anyone out of a program. AA should be gradually phased out and so that people who are initially seeking treatment for substance issues will go to treatment programs that are shown to be effective. If the "old timers" want to stick with AA that is fine. But all new referrals for substance use should be referred to treatment programs with evidence.

I am not letting my emotions get the best of me. I am speaking purely from an evidence-based perspective. Youre the one who keeps referring to your own personal experience. That's being driven by emotion.

why not let people find a program that works for them, whichever it may be, rather than advocating complete removal of a program because you dont agree with its message and dont like its success rate?

You keep pointing to the success rate over and over, but you gloss over the large fact that you absolutley , vehemtly disagree with the spirituality message, and try to act like it has nothing to do with your absolute belief that AA needs to go as a treatment. Now if you dont see that as an emotional response, thats fine. Maybe im way off, but i think its more tied into this subject than your willing to admit.

I bring up my experiences because, even though i absolutley hated AA and got nothing from it, i couldnt possibly tell someone else not to try something that might remove them from the gell that is their day to day life as an addict, especially after seeing so many people that it has worked for.

Is it anecdotal? Yes. Is it a small percentage? Probably, i dont know. Regardless, for that tiny percentage, its a god send, and no amouny of cold hard math is going to tell me that they shouldnt have the opportunity to choose that program if it works for them.

Addiction medicine isnt an absolute science yet; everyone is different and everone has different needs as everyones reason for addiction is different.

Let them choose. Let THEM find a program, a reason for sobriety, instead of telling them 'you shouldnt try that because it doesnt work for that many people'.

No one is advocating AA as the only thing that works, or even that it should be a 1st line treatment... just thay it DOES work for many addicts and it deserves to remain for that simple fact. Just because something isnt highly successful does not mean it doesnt have its place.

Anyway, were going to have to agree to disagree.

[SF1900]

why not let people find a program that works for them, whichever it may be, rather than advocating complete removal of a program because you dont agree with its message and dont like its success rate?

You keep pointing to the success rate over and over, but you gloss over the large fact that you absolutley , vehemtly disagree with the spirituality message, and try to act like it has nothing to do with your absolute belief that AA needs to go as a treatment. Now if you dont see that as an emotional response, thats fine. Maybe im way off, but i think its more tied into this subject than your willing to admit.

I bring up my experiences because, even though i absolutley hated AA and got nothing from it, i couldnt possibly tell someone else not to try something that might remove them from the gell that is their day to day life as an addict, especially after seeing so many people that it has worked for.

Is it anecdotal? Yes. Is it a small percentage? Probably, i dont know. Regardless, for that tiny percentage, its a god send, and no amouny of cold hard math is going to tell me that they shouldnt have the opportunity to choose that program if it works for them.

Addiction medicine isnt an absolute science yet; everyone is different and everone has different needs as everyones reason for addiction is different.

Let them choose. Let THEM find a program, a reason for sobriety, instead of telling them 'you shouldnt try that because it doesnt work for that many people'.

No one is advocating AA as the only thing that works, or even that it should be a 1st line treatment... just thay it DOES work for many addicts and it deserves to remain for that simple fact. Just because something isnt highly successful does not mean it doesnt have its place.

Anyway, were going to have to agree to disagree.

The first thing I want you to do is point out to me where I said I disliked AA because of the spirituality piece? Once you can present that to me, I will answer you. But I think youre lying and putting words into my mouth to make me appear "emotional" regarding this topic. Once you start to lie to make yourself seem right, you've already shown that it would be impossible to have any type of serious conversation with you.

[Shockwave]

The first thing I want you to do is point out to me where I said I disliked AA because of the spirituality piece? Once you can present that to me, I will answer you. But I think youre lying and putting words into my mouth to make me appear "emotional" regarding this topic. Once you start to lie to make yourself seem right, you've already shown that it would be impossible to have any type of serious conversation with you.

Its all over many threads, every time something involved in sprituality comes up, you express your opinion on how you vehemently disagree with anything that involvss spirituality, as it functions as a crutch. Hell, in this thread alone, youve made a couple comments on your dislike of spirituality.

Now, you are correct when you said you never put the actual words of your oersonal opinion on spirituality together with AA.

But cmon man, you make you opinion on spirituality very well known on getbig, and its disengenous to try and state that your opinion on it has nothing to do with this issue at hand, when that very fact is so closely tied in with AA, as Adam has brought up several times.

[The Ugly]

Thats pure shit.  That is putting alcoholism on some sort of pedestal and casting you as the weakling.  By doing so, I could see human nature overriding and wanting it even more.  What a joke.

It's exactly what they're doing. You are powerless because you have a "disease," the story goes. Whatever psychology is behind it, it does seem to work for many who "surrender."

[SF1900]

Its all over many threads, every time something involved in sprituality comes up, you express your opinion on how you vehemently disagree with anything that involvss spirituality, as it functions as a crutch. Hell, in this thread alone, youve made a couple comments on your dislike of spirituality.

Now, you are correct when you said you never put the actual words of your oersonal opinion on spirituality together with AA.

But cmon man, you make you opinion on spirituality very well known on getbig, and its disengenous to try and state that your opinion on it has nothing to do with this issue at hand, when that very fact is so closely tied in with AA, as Adam has brought up several times.

Oh really? Well, did you know that I work with many religious/spiritual people every day? In fact, I promote their spirituality and religion. But you didn't know that about me. So, maybe you should just shut the fuck up on what you do and do not know about me

I can easily express my disdain for spirituality/religion on a message board; however, how I present in real life is much different.

I do not care that AA is spiritual. I only care that is has a poor success rate. If there was a treatment available that was evidence based and was spiritual, I would have no problem with it.

[Shockwave]

I can easily express my disdain for spirituality/religion on a message board;

Thanks for proving my point.

Your disdain is the only rhing that matters, hiding it in public doesnt change your opinion on it.

Regardless, as i said originally, i may or may not be right, but i think it plays more of a role than youre willing to admit.

[The True Adonis]

It's exactly what they're doing. You are powerless because you have a "disease," the story goes. Whatever psychology is behind it, it does seem to work for many who "surrender."

I didn`t call it that and no, it does not work for many.  It fails for 95 percent of the people who attend.  3/4ths who show up for the first time, don`t even bother coming back.

[Shockwave]

Oh really? Well, did you know that I work with many religious/spiritual people every day? In fact, I promote their spirituality and religion. But you didn't know that about me. So, maybe you should just shut the fuck up on what you do and do not know about me

I can easily express my disdain for spirituality/religion on a message board; however, how I present in real life is much different.

I do not care that AA is spiritual. I only care that is has a poor success rate. If there was a treatment available that was evidence based and was spiritual, I would have no problem with it.

oh, and fyi, i never pretended to be Mr. Objective.

Ive only maintained the same point -
it works for people that have had no other success'. Let them have it.

[SF1900]

Thanks for proving my point.

Your disdain is the only rhing that matters, hiding it in public doesnt change your opinion on it.

Regardless, as i said originally, i may or may not be right, but i think it plays more of a role than youre willing to admit.

I didnt prove your point at all. No, it doesn't change my opinion, but it does show that I can compartmentalize different facets of my self. I can put aside my disdain for religion when I work with others and look at evidence. However, I can bring that disdain back up when I need to. Its called being an adult and being able to show different self-states according to the context.

When I am being objective and looking at evidence, I put my disdain aside and look at the data. Same when I work with others. Thus, I am able to alter my opinion on religion/spirituality when I need to, i.e., when that specific context presents itself. Similarly, when looking at the data for AA, it is clear it is highly ineffective.

By the way, I have referred people for spiritual guidance.

[The Ugly]

no one is arguing that it should be the primary treatment.

What im saying, over and over, is that a lot of these people have NOTHING and AA is the only thing they can grab onto to give them something to move forward for.

For many of these addicts, with no families, no homes, they have literally NOTHING, they find sanctuary with AA.

And there are plenty of people who AA is the only thing theyve found that works.

Let them have it. Its their life, its taken them from a hell im pretty sure neither of you understand to something that they can actually move forward from.

Thats the whole point. It DOES help these people, and we have no right to tell them that they shouldnt go along with whatever it is that got them straight.

Everyone has to find their own path home from addiction. If AA works for them, great. Let them have it. Theres no reason to tell them they cant because you dont agree with its message.

You're getting shit on for simply relating your experience, which is exactly the same as mine, down to how neither of us could buy into the process.

[Shockwave]

I didnt prove your point at all. No, it doesn't change my opinion, but it does show that I can compartmentalize different facets of my self. I can put aside my disdain for religion when I work with others and look at evidence. However, I can bring that disdain back up when I need to. Its called being an adult and being able to show different self-states according to the context.

When I am being objective and looking at evidence, I put my disdain aside and look at the data. Same when I work with others. Thus, I am able to alter my opinion on religion/spirituality when I need to, i.e., when that specific context presents itself. Similarly, when looking at the data for AA, it is clear it is highly ineffective.

By the way, I have referred people for spiritual guidance.

hey man, like i said. Were going to have to agree to disagree.

I like you and I dont this bullshit is worth getting upset about, especially, as ive maintained, that I really didnt like AA at all and got nothing out of it.

Lets just let it go, weve both said our peace.

[The True Adonis]

You're getting shit on for simply relating your experience, which is exactly the same as mine, down to how neither of us could buy into the process.

So the program was an utter failure.  Good to know.

[SF1900]

hey man, like i said. Were going to have to agree to disagree.

I like you and I dont this bullshit is worth getting upset about, especially, as ive maintained, that I really didnt like AA at all and got nothing out of it.

Lets just let it go, weve both said our peace.

I just find it hard how you can tell me what I am feeling and thinking you're right about my own internal world, when you only know me from a message board? lol. The fact is you do not know how I present in real life, which is the main criteria to judge me on. You can't judge someone off of a message board. But if it makes you feel better to think you know my internal world, then so be it.

[The True Adonis]

This is some sick shit:

[Shockwave]

You're getting shit on for simply relating your experience, which is exactly the same as mine, down to how neither of us could buy into the process.

Yeah, i know, no biggie. Arguing addiction/AA is just like arguing religion.

Hell, ive talked to a couple docs, and even they say there is a huge rift in the medical community over it, that many want to discount the psycholigical/social aspect of it and focus on the cold, hard numbers, and treat it medicinally.

But, it seems, addiction is still an enigma to the medical community, since ir has so many factors that play into it, so they cant really break it down and treat it like they would normal medical or psychological issues.

It encompasses everything and they dont fully understand the whys and the hows beyond the chemical reactions that the drugs have in the brain.

Last time i talked to this one doc in particular (specialized in addiction medicine and travels the country involved in it), he basically said ita still a kind of black art in the medical community and theres a lot of arguing on how best to approach it.

[The Ugly]

I didn`t call it that and no, it does not work for many.  It fails for 95 percent of the people who attend.  3/4ths who show up for the first time, don`t even bother coming back.

You're turning it into a semantical pissing contest, when I'm agreeing with you. You said "weakling." That's exactly what they mean when they forego the pejorative for something less insulting, hence "disease."

And it does work for many. Even those who keep relapsing find help again when they return. A lifelong cycle for many. Shockwave knows exactly what he's talking about, ask Wes. Many of these first-timers, who never return, are probably court ordered cases, where the person is attending completely against their will. It never works in those cases, only when someone makes the decision to quit themselves but needs the support.

I've already been overly critical of their cultish methods, as has Shock, but it's you now, and Adonis always has to make it an argument to prove what "morons" we all are. Even when we're mostly on the same f'n side. Amazing.

You win. The floor is yours.

[Shockwave]

I just find it hard how you can tell me what I am feeling and thinking you're right about my own internal world, when you only know me from a message board? lol. The fact is you do not know how I present in real life, which is the main criteria to judge me on. You can't judge someone off of a message board. But if it makes you feel better to think you know my internal world, then so be it.

Im not judging you on shit, i was merely stating that ita human nature to introduce your bias into things even when you try and remain objective. Some people are better at it then others.

You make your disdain of spirituality/religion very clear all over getbig, so why is it a stretch to think that disdain might creep into your opinion on a system BASED around sprituality?

No where was i judging you for your opinion on spirituality, just stating it IS your opinion, stated by you, many times, and its very much tied into the issue at hand, so why would it be hard to believe it may bias your opinion?

I literally said in that post that i may very well be wrong, but i know most people have an extremely hard time separating their views on religion from their views on AA. Doesnt mean youre necessarily doing that, just means its what most people do.

Itd be akin to me trying to be objective when discussing the US military. I can try, but my bias will always creep in the subject in one way or another, as im just too close the the subject.

[SF1900]

Im not judging you on shit, i was merely stating that ita human nature to introduce your bias into things even when you try and remain objective. Some people are better at it then others.

You make your disdain of spirituality/religion very clear all over getbig, so why is it a stretch to think that disdain might creep into your opinion on a system BASED around sprituality?

No where was i judging you for your opinion on spirituality, just stating it IS your opinion, stated by you, many times, and its very much tied into the issue at hand, so why would it be hard to believe it may bias your opinion?

I literally said in that post that i may very well be wrong, but i know most people have an extremely hard time separating their views on religion from their views on AA. Doesnt mean youre necessarily doing that, just means its what most people do.

Because it doesn't. I told you I work with spiritual/religious people a lot and I keep it in check. If not, I would have been fired long ago. In fact, I work with people from all difference ethnicities, cultures and religious practices. If you choose not to believe this, that is your choice.

And I have no real problem with spirituality, but moreso with religion. There are many ways to be spiritual via yoga, meditation, arts and science.