The original Mentzer Heavy duty workout

[SilverSpoon]

Back in 78 before I moved to S.FL. I was was training at Main Line Nautilus in Bryn Mawr PA. It was and still is owned by Roger Schwab. He was friends with Mike Mentzer very tight with John Balik and Arthur Jones. He was also an Olympia judge in the 8o's.  He would put me and my buddy through the Nautilus circuit. He introduced me to single set and exercise training. I was all of about 145 pounds, it kicked my ass made me somewhat stronger, but never really worked for me as far as packing on any kind of size. I moved to S. FL. shortly after that joined a real gym and trained and ate my ass off. Came back about a year later to visit I was 180. He had finally put some free weights in the place. I was doing some benches in his place telling him I put on all this size with free weights. He told me to keep it down he didn't want the other members to hear what I was saying, he was still pushing his Nautilus workouts to all of his members and clients.

While in school, I was a trainer for Roger at Main Line Health and Fitness.

Great gym.

Training on a routine out of Heavy Duty II (as modified by Mike Mentzer himself due to the machines I had access to), I went from 165 to 195 (I would have been very lean at 180 or so, but was about 10% at a height of 6'1").  Yes, I was totally natural.  Not huge, but not small.

The only barbell movement I did was deadlifts.

[doriancutlerman]

All these guys used volume to build there base. And when they got older, they got lazier and came up with assorted workouts where they want others to believe built their body. In essence trying to re-write history of what it really took to build their bodies. See it everyday today. The Cutlers of the world using hardly any real weight and working out on machines using boatloads of drugs telling people that their working out harder today then they ever did. These mentally ill delusional older dudes like Kamali thinking they look better and bigger today because he weighs more on the scale...When it's the drugs and the calories that are keeping the scale up and the delusional mind not understanding what the mirror is really showing them...

Contrary to popular belief, Mentzer did NOT use "volume" to build his base.  He started training as a young teenager with a couple of powerlifters his dad knew.  They followed a typical -- shock! -- powerlifting routine of the day, whatwith MWF training, relatively low sets, emphasis on strength gains, etc.

Mike told me he didn't give a flying fuck about "volume" until he'd overfed himself to a gross degree.  He said he was benching 350 and squatting 500 for reps as a 15 y.o., but he'd also bulked up to about 250ish and his parents were giving him hell about the amount of milk he was knocking out.  Only THEN did he embark on a high-volume Arnoldesque routine and, a year later, down to about 170 (?), he realized he was smaller, flatter and weaker than when he started the whole mess.  

Diet of course played no small part in that, but this business about Mentzer -- and Yates, for that matter -- using "volume" to build their bases is, well, off-base

All homo, Gisele Bunchen-Brady is a complete skank, nobody can weigh more than 150 in contest shape unless they're 8 feet tall, etc., etc.
DCM

[Dokey111]

Back in 78 before I moved to S.FL. I was was training at Main Line Nautilus in Bryn Mawr PA. It was and still is owned by Roger Schwab. He was friends with Mike Mentzer very tight with John Balik and Arthur Jones. He was also an Olympia judge in the 8o's.  He would put me and my buddy through the Nautilus circuit. He introduced me to single set and exercise training. I was all of about 145 pounds, it kicked my ass made me somewhat stronger, but never really worked for me as far as packing on any kind of size. I moved to S. FL. shortly after that joined a real gym and trained and ate my ass off. Came back about a year later to visit I was 180. He had finally put some free weights in the place. I was doing some benches in his place telling him I put on all this size with free weights. He told me to keep it down he didn't want the other members to hear what I was saying, he was still pushing his Nautilus workouts to all of his members and clients.

ummmm.....

[mazfit]

you guys still think different training stratergies change the shape of your body lol

different drug combionations and standard lifting change your body not
 mike mentzas perpendictual system of hiit bollocks

[Ronnie Rep]

While in school, I was a trainer for Roger at Main Line Health and Fitness.

Great gym.

Training on a routine out of Heavy Duty II (as modified by Mike Mentzer himself due to the machines I had access to), I went from 165 to 195 (I would have been very lean at 180 or so, but was about 10% at a height of 6'1").  Yes, I was totally natural.  Not huge, but not small.

The only barbell movement I did was deadlifts.

Cool, when was that?

[SilverSpoon]

1998-2001.

Kevin Tolbert was a trainer there at the time, and taught me how to do squats, although my college strength and conditioning coach had taught me very similar technique, I had never done squats for 20+ repetitions prior.

Kevin, being Dr. Ken Leistner's adopted son, taught me more about proper strength training in a few sessions than I have learned since.

Kevin is now the head S&C Coach at Michigan, as he came in a package deal with Harbaugh.

[doriancutlerman]

Kevin Tolbert?

Damn.  That's not a name I've heard for a good while.  He was an utter beast. 

Mr. Spoon, would you be so kind as to share some of what you learned from Mr. Tolbert?  Also, would you also be so kind as to outline some of your training methods/ideas since '01? 

[SilverSpoon]

I would love to.

I have major work to get done for my job, so please remind me, and I will outline what I find really works for a natural (me--I will absolutely not get into a debate about HIT vs. volume, but will say for a guy like me, who is dedicated to his job, family and a charitable organization, I simply don't have time for volume.  Now like Howard, I need to clean up my diet to maximize my look, as there is muscle there, but I am not lean enough).

I will say this:  Joe Mullen had some very interesting and fruitful ideas that modified Jones' beliefs/protocols.

Tolbert was/is a beast.  I saw him do the entire stack on the MedX leg extension with 90 pounds tacked on for a Superslow protocol of 20 seconds up/20 seconds hold in static/20 seconds down for 2 "reps" and hobble over to a bar loaded to 405 and perform perfect squats with 405.  The year was 1998 (he was at least 40-42 years old), and if someone were to tell me about it (and I had not personally wintessed this workout with my own eyes prior to the gym opening--when Kevin trained) I would not have believed them. 

When I met Kevin, he was coming off of being very heavy (he called himself "fat") as he was 280+ pounds.  He was down to a very solid 220+ but had the best leg development out of anyone I have ever seen in person that wasn't on the kitchen sink.

[inside you]

"different drug combionations and standard lifting change your body not
 mike mentzas perpendictual system of hiit bollocks"
- this

[CDel19]

Did the Mentzer HIT quad and calf workout yesterday-real slow-what a pump -will try chest and bis tonight-Ive been doing heavy slow routines for a while-I feel it def works good

[oldtimer1]

The self-absorbed HIT types are some of the worst, 'tis true.  And most of them do look like pencilnecks or fat guys, though I'd exclude Jones from that:  he didn't train much past the mid-1950s, but when he did lift for a stretch he got pretty strong and, for his age and natty, somewhat muscular.

As far as Casey sneaking in "volume," he didn't for the infamous "Colorado Experiment."  How could he?  There was no "gym across the street," as Jeff Everson claimed.  Besides, anybody who has truly gone through one of those full-body Nautilus routines, done every other day, could attest to ZERO desire for anything additional in training terms.  I guess someone could try, but what good they might hope to do?  Psh.  Not much, particularly after following that routine for upwards of 6-8 weeks (or more, as I foolishly did as a young teen).

And about Boyer:  yeah, he shrank and looked much smaller when he worked for Jones ... but, OOPS!  Guess why?  

Hint:  it wasn't so much the training as it was -- yep! -- the same year Boyer WENT FUCKING CLEAN for a long time.  I know Boyer and like him a lot; he's a good dude and, as best I can tell, has never shot me a bunch of bullshit.  

About Casey and Mike dying young, eh ... let's just say they weren't the most abstemious folk on the planet, LOL.

No, in all seriousness, it is well-documented that Casey was smoking a pack a day as a 15-year-old (!).  In his later years he claimed he didn't smoke anymore, but the fella was upwards of 300 lbs., heavily-muscled but also FAT.  Coupled with abusing anabolics for an untold amount of time ... ?  Yeah, he fucked himself up, alright -- but just blaming the drugs is stupid.  

Casey wasn't held in prison during the experiment and contrary to popular opinion of HIT guys there were barbells gyms in Colorado. Casey has been observed using volume  and high volume by David Young the Iron Man writer first hand in the same gym during his most impressive condition in the early 80's. He said 15 sets a body part and he's not the only one that observed that. Jeff Everson if memory serves me right was using hear say evidence obtained from conversations Boyer Coe had with Viator. 

Using empirical knowledge of all the heart attacks and heart problems of professional known bodybuilders in this little sub culture of a sport points to fire when you see smoke. Law suits are flying right now over the ubiquitous testosterone hormone replacement therapy. Statistically they found that men on hormone replacement were at an increased risk for heart attack and stroke. Naturally the producers of hormones have flooded the internet with contradictory information. Just pointing out if it's true that a very small amount of test can increase the risk of heart attack, what is flooding your system with steroids over decades of cycles are going to do concerning risk? Yes, both Viator and Mentzer were fat out of shape smokers toward the end of their young lives. No doubt you can't blame just drugs.

[Ronnie Rep]

1998-2001.

Kevin Tolbert was a trainer there at the time, and taught me how to do squats, although my college strength and conditioning coach had taught me very similar technique, I had never done squats for 20+ repetitions prior.

Kevin, being Dr. Ken Leistner's adopted son, taught me more about proper strength training in a few sessions than I have learned since.

Kevin is now the head S&C Coach at Michigan, as he came in a package deal with Harbaugh.

He also worked with Eagles and the Miami Hurricanes as strength and conditioning coach.

[Thespritz0]

Casey wasn't held in prison during the experiment and contrary to popular opinion of HIT guys there were barbells gyms in Colorado. Casey has been observed using volume  and high volume by David Young the Iron Man writer first hand in the same gym during his most impressive condition in the early 80's. He said 15 sets a body part and he's not the only one that observed that. Jeff Everson if memory serves me right was using hear say evidence obtained from conversations Boyer Coe had with Viator. 

Using empirical knowledge of all the heart attacks and heart problems of professional known bodybuilders in this little sub culture of a sport points to fire when you see smoke. Law suits are flying right now over the ubiquitous testosterone hormone replacement therapy. Statistically they found that men on hormone replacement were at an increased risk for heart attack and stroke. Naturally the producers of hormones have flooded the internet with contradictory information. Just pointing out if it's true that a very small amount of test can increase the risk of heart attack, what is flooding your system with steroids over decades of cycles are going to do concerning risk? Yes, both Viator and Mentzer were fat out of shape smokers toward the end of their young lives. No doubt you can't blame just drugs.

^^
TRUTH on this, I SAW him smoking in 1994, just outside Gold's on Hampton Dr. in Venice!!!!

[SilverSpoon]

He also worked with Eagles and the Miami Hurricanes as strength and conditioning coach.

I know.

I was only going with Kevin's most recent employment.

Kevin and I kept in touch for some time after he left Main Line and I graduated.

His one "trick" that he played was to hang a Christmas Star in the Squat rack, and have the trainee keep their eyes fixed on that star while squatting.

I know there are differences of opinion on where to keep one's head while squatting, but Kevin certainly believed in keeping one's chin at least parallel to the ground, with the eyes up.

[Rmj11]

Contrary to popular belief, Mentzer did NOT use "volume" to build his base.  He started training as a young teenager with a couple of powerlifters his dad knew.  They followed a typical -- shock! -- powerlifting routine of the day, whatwith MWF training, relatively low sets, emphasis on strength gains, etc.

Mike told me he didn't give a flying fuck about "volume" until he'd overfed himself to a gross degree.  He said he was benching 350 and squatting 500 for reps as a 15 y.o., but he'd also bulked up to about 250ish and his parents were giving him hell about the amount of milk he was knocking out.  Only THEN did he embark on a high-volume Arnoldesque routine and, a year later, down to about 170 (?), he realized he was smaller, flatter and weaker than when he started the whole mess. 

Diet of course played no small part in that, but this business about Mentzer -- and Yates, for that matter -- using "volume" to build their bases is, well, off-base

All homo, Gisele Bunchen-Brady is a complete skank, nobody can weigh more than 150 in contest shape unless they're 8 feet tall, etc., etc.
DCM

Another "know it all" hitter. Mentzer used volume. He did 10 sets of an exercise to build up his body, not hit. Nothing like it. Mike was full of it. Even Franco saw him training and attested that Mentzer was in the gym longer than him and Arnold. Others like Robert Kennedy, David Young, Greg Zulak, etc also witnessed Mentzer training. He was certainly doing high volume. 4 exercises per bodypart done for 4 sets each. That's 16 sets. Not low volume at all.

As for Yates, he did more volume than he let on. Take his Night of the Champions routine.

Bench or decline press 5 sets pyramided up
Incline press 4 sets pyramided up
Flys 2 sets but did 2 drop sets after each main set totalling up to 6 sets
Cable crossovers done same as flys

Added all up Yates chest routine is 21 sets. Not low volume at all.

So you're very wrong. Please do more research instead of being highly opinionated but lack any real knowledge.

[FitnessFrenzy]

I heard one of the Mentzer brothers say on YouTube that he worked out 3 hours per week.

[wes]

In the early days of his training.circa early 1960`s, Mike trained just like everybody else, why would he do otherwise..........Dave Mastorakis told me this and he knew and trained with the Mentzers since they were about 15 or 16.

Dave also told me that while Mike was making insane progress, he and Ray were struggling to make meager progress.....when they asked Mike what he was doing that was so different than what they were doing, Mike said steroids.

[Megalodon]

^^
TRUTH on this, I SAW him smoking in 1994, just outside Gold's on Hampton Dr. in Venice!!!!

[funk51]

Do gyms even have Nautilus machines anymore?

   the gym i belonged to before my health issues and the plandemic hit had one piece of nautilus equipment, the old pullover machine.

[ProudVirgin69]

I was a Mike Mentzer fan back in the day. I had great success in my youth training similar to him. I think I still have everything he ever wrote in my basement.

'oldtimer1' hasnt logged on since december 2021, did he died?

[Rambone]

   the gym i belonged to before my health issues and the plandemic hit had one piece of nautilus equipment, the old pullover machine.

That's good shit, pal!

[Titus Pullo]

Another "know it all" hitter.

Whoa, slow down there, slugger. 

I used to be a foreman for my family's water-sewer pipe construction company.  In those days (early 2000s), Mexicans were rapidly replacing black guys on most construction jobs.

Not so for Haynes Construction.  We had a core group of men who had been with the company since my late, great father turned the reigns over to me.  I'd grown up with some of these guys and regarded them like family.

One day, we were working on a new subdivision, and some asshole that lived almost a mile away rolled up and started screaming at my crew.  This putz ranted about all manner of irrational nonsense until I told him to fuck off.

I was mad about it the rest of the day until June "Bug" came to me and said, "Don't you fret that man.  You take a man who think he know everything, and he don't know a goddamned thing."

I don't pretend to know everything, by a long shot.  However:

Mentzer used volume. He did 10 sets of an exercise to build up his body, not hit. Nothing like it. Mike was full of it. Even Franco saw him training and attested that Mentzer was in the gym longer than him and Arnold. Others like Robert Kennedy, David Young, Greg Zulak, etc also witnessed Mentzer training. He was certainly doing high volume. 4 exercises per bodypart done for 4 sets each. That's 16 sets. Not low volume at all. [Quote/]

Wow.

You dug deep for this one.

I'm curious to see some specifics from these hearsay sources you cited.  There are people here who bore first-hand witness to Mentzer training just as he said he did in the late seventies; e.g., The Scott.  Roger Schwab, Larry Pollock, Ell Darden and plenty of others corroborated that.

Who are we to believe?

As for Yates, he did ,ore volume than he let on. Take his Night of the Champions routine.

Bench or decline press 5 sets pyramided up
Incline press 4 sets pyramided up
Flys 2 sets but did 2 drop sets after each main set totalling up to 6 sets
Cable crossovers done same as flys

Added all up Yates chest routine is 21 sets. Not low volume at all.

Where was it written that a HIT trainer can't warm up? 

He did six to eight hard work sets.  The ones preceding them were not too hard.

In fairness, that's not altogether different from moderate volume training routines. 

However, I have read his training manual, and you exaggerate.  Why?

So you're very wrong. Please do more research instead of bring highly opinionated but lack any real knowledge.

I'm not wrong. 

I've no axe to grind with you, mate, but you seem overly hung up on training volume, be it stupidly high (the Defendis sort) or low. 

Samir Bannout also trained with Mike and Ray.  They were friends.  Samir noted that the Mentzer's sessions were shorter than his because he did an extra set or two beyond where they stopped.  If memory serves, he said Mike would finish his session in about 30-45 minutes (which is consistent with Pollock's recollection); and Samir, 45 min. to an hour.

I have little problem with his training recommendations up to and including what he outlined in his '92 edition of _Heavy Duty_.  It's not perfect, but it served me well enough as a teen.  What came after...Oy.  Resting a week between sessions, and only doing 2-3 movements per workout?

As Trevor Smith said, that shit went into outer space.

[Rambone]

Never understood the obsession with manlet Mentzer. He was a mentally weak drug addict who lived a loser's life in the end. Great stache though

[IroNat]

'oldtimer1' hasnt logged on since december 2021, did he died?

He quit the forum.

[Never1AShow]

He quit the forum.

Looks like Howard has been gone for 2 months?  Too much effort running the ChOak account too?