Author Topic: hrt and chronic liver disease  (Read 7587 times)

LittleJ

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4475
hrt and chronic liver disease
« on: February 05, 2015, 11:55:16 AM »
Would it be a bad idea to run hrt if you've got a chronic liver disease?

gettingbetter

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
  • Fuck Yeah!
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 08:18:33 AM »
Would it be a bad idea to run hrt if you've got a chronic liver disease?

From what I understand, you should avoid oral steroids because of the pass they do on your liver, especially 17-c steroids. (it has to use enzymes to cleave the molecule and can thus raise liver enzymes).

As for injectables, the molecule is ingested directly in the muscle, the esthers determining their half lives but, as steroids raise anabolism, it is possible that you will have more by-products of accelerated cell production (i.e. toxins) to get rid of and your liver will "detoxify" your body by neutralizing some of these toxins.

I would probably steer clear of most steroids if I had problems with my liver except maybe steroids that are notoriously non toxic, I would stay at very low dosage (75 mg a week max) and drink plenty of water to assist my liver....

You can get more information on those sites, both provinding two sides of the same coin, the truth probably being somewhere in the middle...

http://livertox.nih.gov/AndrogenicSteroids.htm

http://www.medibolics.com/qa2.htm

Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 09:28:55 AM »
avoid all methylated steroids and youre g2g
EQ can allegedly cause high liver/kidney values
tren is also harsh so id avoid these generally

otherwise the benzyl alcohol content of the gear can be a problem but only if you use very high dosages.

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 02:19:05 AM »
Underground 10ml test vials are filled with methyl alcool for septic purposes. This is the most toxic form of alcool.
Legit pharmaceutical 1/2ml ampouls usually don't have alcool so it would be a wiser choice. At TRT levels, testosterone shouldn't be harsh on the liver.

Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2015, 02:25:37 AM »
Underground 10ml test vials are filled with methyl alcool for septic purposes. This is the most toxic form of alcool.
Legit pharmaceutical 1/2ml ampouls usually don't have alcool so it would be a wiser choice. At TRT levels, testosterone shouldn't be harsh on the liver.
"are filled"
theres about 0.2ml of methyl alcohol in a 10ml vial..
unless hes injecting a vial a day that wont kill him...

LittleJ

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4475
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2015, 07:52:31 AM »
I've had this condition since I was born and didn't know about it until I had bloodwork done on my last cutmix cycle 3 years ago. Alt and Ast was extremely high. I got jaundice as a infant and didn't recover from it. I'm already on treatment for a year and most likely a lifetime if better medicine don't come available. I feel like hell on the medicine. My test levels are way down because of the medicine I'm on. So do you think 100 mg test e a week won't be too much?

Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2015, 07:58:51 AM »
100mg test E a week is on the low physiological end imo
wouldnt take the "risk" for such a miniscule amount
go with 250mg a week and be done with id
id be amazed if you had any problems with that tbh
just get bloodwork 4 weeks in

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2015, 11:53:07 AM »
Jizmo is quite the dealer giving all kind of self agenda advices. Even methyl alcool is acceptable for a patient with chronic liver decease.

For TRT purposes 1 vial of 250mg of testosterone cypionate every two or tree weeks.

OlympiaGym

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2134
  • they/them/their
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 12:45:25 PM »
A lot of guys here dealing knowledge but probably better to see a doctor.

Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 12:55:23 PM »
Jizmo is quite the dealer giving all kind of self agenda advices. Even methyl alcool is acceptable for a patient with chronic liver decease.

For TRT purposes 1 vial of 250mg of testosterone cypionate every two or tree weeks.
:D i hope you mean one shot or ampoule and not one vial  ;)

to be honest
cypionate is absolutely unsuited for every 2 or 3 week injections

to have stable levels cyp NEEDS to be injected AT LEAST once weekly. better twice weekly. the half life is similar to E, about 4 days.
many people feel a drop in well being/mood/libido etc after just 5-6 days. so once a week is an absolute must imo.
less frequent and higher concentrated shots also tend to give more aromatization. so spreading out is always superior.

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 42325
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 12:58:56 PM »
Would it be a bad idea to run hrt if you've got a chronic liver disease?

It would be a great idea to discuss this with your doctor. Normally injectable hormones are not passed through the liver. Oral steroids are as are many medications. Anyone who has chronic liver disease should seek a doctor's advice on how best to avoid further liver damage.

LittleJ

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4475
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 10:40:15 PM »
It would be a great idea to discuss this with your doctor. Normally injectable hormones are not passed through the liver. Oral steroids are as are many medications. Anyone who has chronic liver disease should seek a doctor's advice on how best to avoid further liver damage.

Yeah I don't think my Gastro doctor would approve of me using testosterone.

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 42325
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2015, 10:46:57 PM »
Yeah I don't think my Gastro doctor would approve of me using testosterone.

I assume this means you won't be having a conversation with your doctor then?

LittleJ

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4475
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2015, 10:50:59 PM »
I assume this means you won't be having a conversation with your doctor then?

No

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 42325
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2015, 10:54:38 PM »
No

Well then if you aren't going to get an okay from your doctor, you probably should forget about HRT. Were folks get into trouble with these things is when they self-prescribe or worse follow the advice of those who are self-prescribing.

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 01:39:22 AM »
:D i hope you mean one shot or ampoule and not one vial  ;)

to be honest
cypionate is absolutely unsuited for every 2 or 3 week injections

to have stable levels cyp NEEDS to be injected AT LEAST once weekly. better twice weekly. the half life is similar to E, about 4 days.
many people feel a drop in well being/mood/libido etc after just 5-6 days. so once a week is an absolute must imo.
less frequent and higher concentrated shots also tend to give more aromatization. so spreading out is always superior.

I was translating what is writen in the spanish testex elmu prolongatum (cypionate), testoviron depot (enantate) or sustenon 250 (not sold over here anymore). One shot every 2-3 weeks for testosterone replacement therapy.

Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 02:25:29 AM »
I was translating what is writen in the spanish testex elmu prolongatum (cypionate), testoviron depot (enantate) or sustenon 250 (not sold over here anymore). One shot every 2-3 weeks for testosterone replacement therapy.
thats nice but its still wrong.
just like doctors have no clue, the manufacturers seem to have no clue either.

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2015, 09:57:44 AM »
Do you have a remote idea of the years or decades of trial and error of the  studies of human grade pharmacheuticals?

A lot o Bro science in this thread.

Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 11:33:07 AM »
Do you have a remote idea of the years or decades of trial and error of the  studies of human grade pharmacheuticals?

A lot o Bro science in this thread.
no offense but are you fucking retarded?  ::)

http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=6&t=0&n=1&c0_d=250&c0_c=testosterone&c0_f=cypionate&c0_s=14&c0_fr=1&c0_to=6

look at this
this is the graph for 250mg test cyp every 2 weeks that you recommend

youll have less than 10mg of test in your body for the WHOLE second week
i dont even need to show you the graph for every 3 week injections

and its not only the fact that test levels are fucking low after 1 week, theyre all over the place too
you basically have 5x as much test in your body on the day of the injection compared to day 8, 9, 10 etc
this is just plain STUPID

and ANYONE who has the slightest clue would never consider anything remotely close to that.

"a lot of broscience in this thread."  ::)

gettingbetter

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 366
  • Fuck Yeah!
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2015, 04:37:26 PM »
Jizmo is quite the dealer giving all kind of self agenda advices. Even methyl alcool is acceptable for a patient with chronic liver decease.

For TRT purposes 1 vial of 250mg of testosterone cypionate every two or tree weeks.

IMO, Jizmo gives sound opinion but doesn't bother to post links to scientific studies. So far, I've checked all of his claims and could find credible scientific sources behind what he says...

The only thing I don't agree with is 250 mg a week being low physiological doses since most man produce at maximum 10 mg of T a day. BUT since, most UGL sell underdosed gear, there may be a factor to be equivalent to pharma grade by which you should estimate dosages....


Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2015, 12:14:55 AM »
yeah man i usually dont post studies because i cant be arsed digging them out
i read quite a lot on pubmed etc and usually remember having read something somewhere but i rarely ever save links

i agree on the dosage thing, however a normal male allegedly produces between 3 and 15mg of test a day or so
so that would make 105mg the highest upper range
with exogenous test this seems to be a bit different though because ive never seen ANYONE who gets high test readings from 100mg a week.
including cyp/e ester weight that would be about 130mg a week.
from what ive seen people "need" around 150-200mg a week to get into the upper normal range.
but of course we as bodybuilders have a different metabolism, more muscle mass, more blood volume etc than the "average" guy who produces 5mg test a day

note i was talking about the 250mg every two weeks that falco recommended aswell ;) 250mg a week would certainly not be HRT anymore but a cruise protocol... however youll still be on the low side after the first week with 250mg every 2 or 3 weeks compared to the equivalent amount injected twice a week.
of course your test levels will be much higher (too high for true hrt aswell) during the first week and then too low during the second and third week. this is plain stupid.

nonetheless i dont think less than 100mg a week would be a sufficient trt amount for anyone
(maybe with the exception of the emeric protocol on promuscle, where u inject just 10-15mg ed, which seems to yield much higher levels than once a week injections because of much less aromatization etc)

falco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20862
  • The child is grown, the dream is gone
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2015, 07:47:07 AM »
no offense but are you fucking retarded?  ::)

http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=6&t=0&n=1&c0_d=250&c0_c=testosterone&c0_f=cypionate&c0_s=14&c0_fr=1&c0_to=6

look at this
this is the graph for 250mg test cyp every 2 weeks that you recommend

youll have less than 10mg of test in your body for the WHOLE second week
i dont even need to show you the graph for every 3 week injections

and its not only the fact that test levels are fucking low after 1 week, theyre all over the place too
you basically have 5x as much test in your body on the day of the injection compared to day 8, 9, 10 etc
this is just plain STUPID

and ANYONE who has the slightest clue would never consider anything remotely close to that.

"a lot of broscience in this thread."  ::)

    Look moron, if in a prescribed test ampoul (manufactured in european labs) is written: One shot every 2-3 weeks for testosterone replacement therapy. who tha fuk are you to refute this information?

Either Broscience or GH15 schollars over here.

pestosterone

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1648
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2015, 02:56:03 PM »
    Look moron, if in a prescribed test ampoul (manufactured in european labs) is written: One shot every 2-3 weeks for testosterone replacement therapy. who tha fuk are you to refute this information?

Either Broscience or GH15 schollars over here.
Yea I think the graph he posted refuted it. And yes I am certified enBROcrenoligist

oni

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2015, 11:55:58 PM »
    Look moron, if in a prescribed test ampoul (manufactured in european labs) is written: One shot every 2-3 weeks for testosterone replacement therapy. who tha fuk are you to refute this information?

Either Broscience or GH15 schollars over here.

I disagree man
They are dosed that way because of ease of administration
My doc recommends twice weekly shots, sub-q with a slin pin and that's what printed onto the script
I get redijects though lmao, not amps, so I have to split them up

Jizmo

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2855
  • getbigbrah
Re: hrt and chronic liver disease
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2015, 07:29:57 AM »
   Look moron, if in a prescribed test ampoul (manufactured in european labs) is written: One shot every 2-3 weeks for testosterone replacement therapy. who tha fuk are you to refute this information?

Either Broscience or GH15 schollars over here.

someone outed himself as a retard over here.

i love how numbnuts like you believe everything some guy says just because he wears a fucking white lab coat and a stethoscope

guess what, the fact that this guy studied medicine for fucking 5 years doesnt mean he knows ANYTHING about hormone preparations

a friend of mine just graduated college, hes basically a doctor now and he knows FUCK ALL about testosterone or other hormones, yet he can prescribe it to you.