Author Topic: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!  (Read 1646393 times)

Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9200 on: February 06, 2023, 09:30:40 AM »
Nuke 1 - Binanace just said all USD bank transfers will be suspended on the 8th of Feb and resume in a few weeks when a new banking partner is established. 2018 6k to 3k Tether bank seizure vibes.

Leverage cascade on Jan alt gains incoming, or maybe even a 50% BTC nuke if it's more serious.

Market has actually gone up though since this got announced!


Nuke 2 - DCG and Genesis trading to sell assets. Winding down their loan book, so selling crypto



https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/02/06/bankrupt-lender-genesis-and-parent-dcg-reach-initial-agreement-with-main-creditors-source/?utm_campaign=coindesk_main&utm_content=editorial&utm_medium=social&utm_term=organic&utm_source=twitter

Griffith

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9201 on: February 06, 2023, 09:38:33 AM »
Binanace just said all USD bank transfers will be suspended on the 8th of Feb and resume in a few weeks when a new banking partner is established.

Leverage cascade on Jan alt gains incoming, or maybe even a 50% BTC nuke if it's FTX vibes.

Market has actually gone up though since this got announced!

"We are temporarily suspending USD bank transfers as of February 8th," a Binance spokesperson said, noting just 0.01% of monthly active users use USD bank transfers. "Affected customers are being notified directly."

"In the interim, all other methods of buying and selling crypto remain unaffected, including bank transfer using one of the other fiat currencies supported by Binance (including euros), buying and selling crypto via credit card, debit card, Google Pay and Apple Pay and via our Binance P2P marketplace," the spokesperson added.

Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9202 on: February 06, 2023, 09:50:30 AM »
"We are temporarily suspending USD bank transfers as of February 8th," a Binance spokesperson said, noting just 0.01% of monthly active users use USD bank transfers. "Affected customers are being notified directly."

"In the interim, all other methods of buying and selling crypto remain unaffected, including bank transfer using one of the other fiat currencies supported by Binance (including euros), buying and selling crypto via credit card, debit card, Google Pay and Apple Pay and via our Binance P2P marketplace," the spokesperson added.

I edited the post. It was the same announcement tether made in 2018. Turned out Law enforcement seized the bank then. If it's a repeat (maybe Silvergate or SBNY) then it would be serious.

blackpele

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9203 on: February 06, 2023, 01:40:18 PM »
You need to stop getting your Ethereum information through maxi only channels as it's made you horribly misinformed.

- ETH was never premined. There was an ICO,  pre launch you sent BTC and later received an ETH wallet and ETH. Then after launch you could mine ETH. Pre PoS all ETH came into existence through either mined BTC or mining ETH. The controversy is behind the Eth founders and foundation taking a percentage through the ICO, but those sending BTC for ETH knew this.

- The main reason BTC gets called old tech is because it isn't "Turing complete" and Ethereum is. Mathematically it's possible to do anything you can do on your computer on Ethereum. This hasn't really mattered in the last 14 years, but it should be obvious why this could be hugely advantageous in the future.

- Your points about Metamask and opensea are accurate, but those are products and about user choices. They are not ETH. People are free to make a choice about using them or not.

- You need 32 ETH not $3,200,000 in Eth to become a validator. That's just over $50k. Staking pools make it even cheaper. Also you don't need to worry about high energy costs and constantly upgrading mining equipment like you do with bitcoin. Running Eth validators is far simpler.

As I said, you need to take the maxi blinkers off and go look at things for yourself. And that doesn't mean you should go and buy Eth, but so you can start asking yourself why some maxi news sources are full of misleading statements and hypocrisy.

Flexacon could you please list some quality sources regarding crypto, thanks  :)

Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9204 on: February 06, 2023, 02:25:17 PM »
Flexacon could you please list some quality sources regarding crypto, thanks  :)

I don't know if such things even exist. People putting information out are typically biased in some way, usually it's financially motivated. Some who can be a great source of information can also very biased because of bad blood that's happened in their crypto past.

Everyone also wants different things from crypto so this also further complicates things. People who are moral and right about things often make no money in crypto whilst scammers and their followers make millions. Which source is of more value there?

It might sound ridiculous, but your best source of information now might just be to use chatgpt. Google is also releasing it's version soon, so having the ability to cross reference responses will be an amazing resource.

Thin Lizzy

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9205 on: February 06, 2023, 05:20:45 PM »
Cramer was waving the caution flag, so, you’re probably not gonna see a pullback in up-trending markets in the near future.

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9206 on: February 06, 2023, 05:49:49 PM »
Wow its great to see how sophisticated this discussion has become, evolving form Mr Anabolic's "but its vaporware" comments, to true discussions by people who understand the technology.

One comment from me - ETH is in my view very much an unregistered security. And it has a very serious risk of being restricted from be traded on any regulated exchange. There was a fund raising, for a "project" where the founders issued "tokens" in return for assets of value being transferred to them. That does not mean ETH would disappear, but it would be a massive blow, and a massive boon to Bitcoin if such enforcement really takes place.


obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9207 on: February 06, 2023, 11:17:32 PM »
Wow its great to see how sophisticated this discussion has become, evolving form Mr Anabolic's "but its vaporware" comments, to true discussions by people who understand the technology.

One comment from me - ETH is in my view very much an unregistered security. And it has a very serious risk of being restricted from be traded on any regulated exchange. There was a fund raising, for a "project" where the founders issued "tokens" in return for assets of value being transferred to them. That does not mean ETH would disappear, but it would be a massive blow, and a massive boon to Bitcoin if such enforcement really takes place.
https://isethereumasecurity.com/

Prong #2:

Hard to suggest there is an “issuer” or “promoter” at this point in Ethereum.
Staking does not have horizontal commonality in relation to profits.
Staking does have some horizontal commonality in relation to other validators, but they are not an issuer/promoter.
Horziontal commonality in efforts is negated by the factor that the profits and loses are solely based on your own validators performance and actions.
Your validator can be taken to another network is not locked in to any type of commonality.
Staking does not have strong vertical commonality with the issuer.
There is only broad vertical commonality, if you believe what is being sold is blockspace, and that the blockspace is owned by developers who publish code, but do not run the network.

Prong #3:

There is an expectation of profits.
Those profits are only derived from your own ability to maintain a reliable validator.
The maintenance of a machine performing network validation has been shown to be a key managerial effort in the past.
You are selling uptime and validation, and not blockspace, as your validator could connect to another PoS network, or fork, with other validators and do the same action.
This would mean finding Ethereum Proof-of-Stake to not be a security.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9208 on: February 06, 2023, 11:21:43 PM »
Michael Saylor bought Bitcoin because he expects the value to go up and thereby realize a profit.

gib bought Bitcoin for the same reason.

Does that make Bitcoin a security? Are Michael Saylor or gib doing work to process transactions and secure the network? Or could they be profiting from the work of others - the miners securing the BTC network and the developers adding features?

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9209 on: February 07, 2023, 04:39:56 AM »
https://isethereumasecurity.com/

Prong #2:

Hard to suggest there is an “issuer” or “promoter” at this point in Ethereum.
Staking does not have horizontal commonality in relation to profits.
Staking does have some horizontal commonality in relation to other validators, but they are not an issuer/promoter.
Horziontal commonality in efforts is negated by the factor that the profits and loses are solely based on your own validators performance and actions.
Your validator can be taken to another network is not locked in to any type of commonality.
Staking does not have strong vertical commonality with the issuer.
There is only broad vertical commonality, if you believe what is being sold is blockspace, and that the blockspace is owned by developers who publish code, but do not run the network.

Prong #3:

There is an expectation of profits.
Those profits are only derived from your own ability to maintain a reliable validator.
The maintenance of a machine performing network validation has been shown to be a key managerial effort in the past.
You are selling uptime and validation, and not blockspace, as your validator could connect to another PoS network, or fork, with other validators and do the same action.
This would mean finding Ethereum Proof-of-Stake to not be a security.

This history of Eth cannot be reversed. Same with Ripple. Eth when it was launched obviously had a promoter and founder who received immediate value for a sale of shares in the venture, with the shares being represented by eth tokens. Under a strict application of SEC rules, they really are screwed. As a result, it may very will likely lead to the SEC coming after Vitalk and others, and banning regulated exchanges from trading eth "tokens" (essentially an unregistered security).

Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9210 on: February 07, 2023, 07:58:24 AM »
This history of Eth cannot be reversed. Same with Ripple. Eth when it was launched obviously had a promoter and founder who received immediate value for a sale of shares in the venture, with the shares being represented by eth tokens. Under a strict application of SEC rules, they really are screwed. As a result, it may very will likely lead to the SEC coming after Vitalk and others, and banning regulated exchanges from trading eth "tokens" (essentially an unregistered security).

The SEC ruled the EOS ICO as an unregistered token sale and all it did was fine them. The final product was not deemed a security and EOS tokens are still trading.

ETH would have an even better case than EOS if the SEC came after them for their ICO. At worst they can just accept the SEC fine without any admissions of guilt and carry on with business just like EOS.

EOS misled investors during their ICO and all it got was a fine. No one was misled during the ETH ICO.

Also as recently as December 2022 the CFTC has been referring to ETH as a commodity in legal hearings.

Mayday

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9211 on: February 07, 2023, 11:54:00 AM »


It’s taxation that will fuck 99% of retail, not the security thing.

That guy I have mentioned before who got up to 250M and then lost it all, turns out he also has a 30M tax bill……..

Tax authorities will rip shit through people once they regulate defi via wallets and have exchanges submit tax reports rather than wait for people to voluntarily provide it. I assume the CBDCs will form the back one of this which is 2024 onwards.

Theoak*

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9212 on: February 07, 2023, 01:21:08 PM »
All stablecoins use Ethereum. Even VISA and Mastercard will be integrating use of stablecoins such as USDC which uses ETH.

This has huge potential for people in developing countries where they need to hedge against depreciation of their local currency and are unable/prohibited from buying hard currencies locally.

Several reserve banks have also done trials using Ethereum for their CBDC's.

And as you mentioned, there is DEFI, smart-contracts and NFT's which overwhelmingly use ETH.

This is not the win you think it is. Several banks are using Ethereum......I wonder why that is?

If you have to attach your identity  to money  it's not money. It's social credit.

Edit: How convenient.

Bank of England proposes £10,000–£20,000 holding limit per person for its digital pound (CBDC).

https://watcher.guru/news/bank-of-england-launches-digital-pound-cbdc-project?c=294




gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9213 on: February 07, 2023, 10:25:35 PM »
The SEC ruled the EOS ICO as an unregistered token sale and all it did was fine them. The final product was not deemed a security and EOS tokens are still trading.

ETH would have an even better case than EOS if the SEC came after them for their ICO. At worst they can just accept the SEC fine without any admissions of guilt and carry on with business just like EOS.

EOS misled investors during their ICO and all it got was a fine. No one was misled during the ETH ICO.

Also as recently as December 2022 the CFTC has been referring to ETH as a commodity in legal hearings.

Yes, I know the EOS guys. Absolute scammers. They had a good lawyer and got very very lucky (and also very lucky with the money they raised). Also there was not much the SEC could do, as they were all based off-shore in Hong Kong. So paying 25m was a great result for. The companies the SEC are now going after will not be so fortunate I think. Lets see. Outcomes of Library and Ripple will sent important precedents for other unregulated securities such as ETH, and for exchanges.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9214 on: February 08, 2023, 03:15:26 PM »
This history of Eth cannot be reversed. Same with Ripple. Eth when it was launched obviously had a promoter and founder who received immediate value for a sale of shares in the venture, with the shares being represented by eth tokens. Under a strict application of SEC rules, they really are screwed. As a result, it may very will likely lead to the SEC coming after Vitalk and others, and banning regulated exchanges from trading eth "tokens" (essentially an unregistered security).
You are spreading Ethereum FUD. Because that's all that BTC Maxis can do at this point.

The Ethereum ICO involved the exchange of BTC for ETH, not USD. Vitalik is not a US Citizen and lives in Singapore. So not sure what jurisdiction the SEC will have over him.

Bitcoin first became available to buy, sell and trade on online exchanges in 2010. In April 2011, the price of Bitcoin crossed the $1 threshold for the first time. So what is the difference between an ICO where BTC is exchanged for ETH tokens and being able to exchange USD for BTC in 2010? I fail to see how one would be deemed a security and the other not.

Satoshi was able to mine over 1 million BTC in the early days because he was the first to the gate. That is really no different than pre-mining.

We already have one SEC official claim Bitcoin and Ethereum are not securities. No SEC official has come out and stated Ethereum is a security. And the fact is Proof of Stake Ethereum does not satisfy all he criteria of the Howey Test.

The SEC's job is to protect investors. Where was Gary Gensler when SBF and FTX were defrauding investors? Oh yeah, he was meeting with him and probably having a great time. He failed at his job. The SEC has never been about protecting investors and entrepreneurs. They are really there to advance the agenda of established entities.

The SEC went after Preston Tucker and lost in 1950. But in the process, they destroyed his business and he had to shut down. There's a movie about it starring Jeff Bridges.

https://www.wired.com/2010/01/0122preston-tucker-acquitted/

The SEC is a useless, corrupt entity like the FBI and CIA. All three should be dissolved. They are useless to us.

https://beincrypto.com/eth-pos-is-not-a-security-here-is-why/#:~:text=Ethereum's%20Merge%20has%20led%20to,be%20considered%20as%20a%20security.

How is the Howey test applied to prove an asset, a security
According to The Securities Act of 1933, an investment contract should have three prongs. A contract should satisfy all three prongs. If an instrument does not meet even any one of the prongs, it cannot be considered security.

1. An investment of money
2. In a common enterprise
3. With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others

The prong one states, “An investment of money” The validators depositing their ETH in the smart contract to validate the transactions and keep the Ethereum blockchain secure is not necessarily “an investment of money.” They are putting ETH as collateral to participate in the PoS mechanism. They are not making a purchase or an investment.

However, this argument may be valid technically. Still, it cannot be considered a solid argument because the ETH deposited as collateral can be viewed as a “risk” and may fall under the investment criteria.

Does Ethereum satisfy the second prong?
Under the second prong, “In a common enterprise,” there are two tests of Commonality:

1.Horizontal Commonality means the individual’s capitals are tied to each other by “pooling of funds.” It is combined by pro-rata distribution of profits. Some believe that staking ETH qualifies horizontal Commonality because the fund is staked in a “common” smart contract, which means “pooling of funds.” It is not pooling because no promoter or central authority has direct control over the staked ETH. The validators stake 32 ETH in a common smart contract, but the staked ETH remains distinct and bound to their node. Validators are incentivized to validate the transactions or slashed if they are involved in some malpractice. There is no impact on all the other validators based on the successful actions or failures of a single validator. Hence there is no pro-rata distribution of profits. Thus the Horizontal Commonality is irrelevant.

2. Vertical Commonality: The vertical Commonality focuses on the relationship between the investor and the issuer/promoter. It is irrelevant in the case of Ethereum because there is no promoter. Ethereum is a decentralized and open-sourced project. Anyone can join the Ethereum network as a validator. They are rewarded or slashed based on their actions through the codes of smart contracts. The rewards they receive are not due to the efforts of any promoters or issuer.

Hence Ethereum fails to satisfy both the test of Commonality. Failure of even one of the prongs proves that Ethereum cannot be considered a security as per the Howey test.

Does Ethereum satisfy the third prong?
The third prong states, “With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others.”

The staking reward in Ethereum is determined by the validator’s own efforts, as explained earlier. It does not “solely depend on efforts of others.” The validators are putting efforts into maximizing their up-time and remaining connected to the network.

Ethereum fails to satisfy, if not all, but 2 out of 3 prongs. Hence ETH PoS is not a security.

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9215 on: February 08, 2023, 09:01:01 PM »
"The Ethereum ICO involved the exchange of BTC for ETH, not USD."

Does not matter how the money was raised. Whether via BTC, cash, or anything else of the value, if there is a fund raise it comes within the SEC mandate. (Otherwise, anyone could do an unapproved IPO simply by requesting payment in BTC).

"Vitalik is not a US Citizen and lives in Singapore. So not sure what jurisdiction the SEC will have over him."

Citizenship is not relevant, but yes country of residence is (for practical purposes). Either way, the exchanges that trade Eth are based in the US can easily be sanctioned, and either way the Ethereum Foundation is an organization which can be served and held accountable.

"So what is the difference between an ICO where BTC is exchanged for ETH tokens and being able to exchange USD for BTC in 2010? I fail to see how one would be deemed a security and the other not."

The difference is in how BTC was launched. BTC was source code, with no project founder raising capital. As you know, even Satoshi has to mine his own coins. This is why almost all alts are unregulated securities, and why US exchanges will likely be banned from facilitating trading of them,


"No SEC official has come out and stated Ethereum is a security."

Not correct. The SEC has been explicitly clear that Eth is an unregistered security. And they have issues very clear warnings to US exchanges on this.

See https://coingeek.com/is-eth-a-security-if-it-wasnt-before-it-is-now/

"The SEC's job is to protect investors. Where was Gary Gensler when SBF and FTX were defrauding investors? Oh yeah, he was meeting with him and probably having a great time. He failed at his job."

Agree, and hence the pressure is now really on given prior lack of action.

"According to The Securities Act of 1933, an investment contract should have three prongs. A contract should satisfy all three prongs. If an instrument does not meet even any one of the prongs, it cannot be considered security.

1. An investment of money
2. In a common enterprise
3. With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others."

Yes, this is correct. And the courts will determine if satisfied. If it walks, talks, and qwaks like a duck, then its likely a duck. Time will tell.

Theoak*

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9216 on: February 08, 2023, 10:01:08 PM »
Right on time Gib.

Theoak*

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9217 on: February 08, 2023, 10:16:21 PM »
The difference is in how BTC was launched. BTC was source code, with no project founder raising capital. As you know, even Satoshi has to mine his own coins. This is why almost all alts are unregulated securities, and why US exchanges will likely be banned from facilitating trading of them,

Didn't Eth founders dump Eth top of the 17 bull market? 14 years on and not a single btc has moved from Satoshi Nakmotos wallet.

If SEC does classify Eth as a security, it will be like rats fleeing a sinking ship and be a major shift towards BTC. It would be entertaining to watch "the cope" unfold.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9218 on: February 08, 2023, 10:49:48 PM »
Right on time Gib.
I'll just set up my own solo staking validators. I have enough ETH for multiple validators. Should have gone that route from the start. The March 2023 Shanghai upgrade will enable unstaking. Then I can get my ETH off Coinbase.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9219 on: February 08, 2023, 10:58:08 PM »
Didn't Eth founders dump Eth top of the 17 bull market? 14 years on and not a single btc has moved from Satoshi Nakmotos wallet.

If SEC does classify Eth as a security, it will be like rats fleeing a sinking ship and be a major shift towards BTC. It would be entertaining to watch "the cope" unfold.
Didn't gib dump almost 100% of his BTC after the 2017 bull run? And then he bought back in again when the price was lower? I say he was smart to do that.

Last year (2022) the ETH foundation sold about 5% of its holdings.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9220 on: February 08, 2023, 11:25:16 PM »
The SEC will have to prove staking is a security. I am sure dirty Gary Gensler will do his best as he protects his banker friends. I was suspicious of Gensler from the onset because I know which tribe he represents. Would be nice to see his greasy ass in prison - even though that will most likely never happen.

A few things that need to happen:

1. End the Fed
2. Dissolve the SEC
3. Dissolve the FBI
4. Dissolve the CIA
5. Remove all corrupt politicians and send them to hard labor camps.


Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9221 on: February 08, 2023, 11:25:25 PM »


Not correct. The SEC has been explicitly clear that Eth is an unregistered security. And they have issues very clear warnings to US exchanges on this.

See https://coingeek.com/is-eth-a-security-if-it-wasnt-before-it-is-now/


The SEC has never said that. The only thing Gensler has explicitly said is that Bitcoin was the only thing they were sure wasn't a security.

The Gensler quotes in the article doesn't back up what you're saying either

“[Staking services] look very similar—with some changes of labeling—to lending,” he said.

“From the coin’s perspective… that’s another indication that under the Howey test, the investing public is anticipating profits based on the efforts of others,”

Kraken Exchange has been warned for offering unregistered securities to US clients and will probably be fined for it. There was no mention of ETH

Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9222 on: February 08, 2023, 11:30:12 PM »
Didn't Eth founders dump Eth top of the 17 bull market? 14 years on and not a single btc has moved from Satoshi Nakmotos wallet.

If SEC does classify Eth as a security, it will be like rats fleeing a sinking ship and be a major shift towards BTC. It would be entertaining to watch "the cope" unfold.

Surely you can't be naive enough to think who or whatever Satoshi Nakmoto was didn't have other wallets they sold BTC out of at some point.

Yes Vitalik and the Foundation sold some of their Eth. The money from the sale gave the project a long runway, allowed them to hire more people, fund other projects in the ecosystem and that's part of the reason why they have the most development going on of any crypto project.

Bitcoins most promising piece of development in that time came about by accident.

Right on time Gib.

Wouldn't get too excited about this just yet. I would love a price dump more than anyone, but this is looking like another Bitzlato nothing burger moment.

Ironically banning centralized exchanges from staking ETH actually helps it towards more decentralization.

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9223 on: February 09, 2023, 03:29:01 AM »
"Surely you can't be naive enough to think who or whatever Satoshi Nakmoto was didn't have other wallets they sold BTC out of at some point."

Its not a matter of how the sats were later sold. Its the fact that every sat was produced and available to anyone to produce via mining. There was not a single sat pre-mined given to founders (unlike eth and almost all scam alts).

"Ironically banning centralized exchanges from staking ETH actually helps it towards more decentralization."

Not sure about that, as it does not chance the centralized (and increasingly centralized) nature of Eth,

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9224 on: February 09, 2023, 03:36:58 AM »
Didn't gib dump almost 100% of his BTC after the 2017 bull run? And then he bought back in again when the price was lower? I say he was smart to do that.


Yes, I did (early 2018 from memory). And I got a lot of shit for it at the time, being called a scammer and traitor etc. The whole story is documented in the thread somewhere but basically, yes I did sell (timing was not "perfect" but from memory 5x or so up on my initial investment). My reason for selling was not that I didn't believe in BTC or all it stood for, but that I felt it was the bursting of a short term bubble. I then rebought in close to the bottom again, and have been holding ever since. I did not cash in again during the last peak at 64K. Imagine doing that a second time around. I posted a few pages back that I now have over 50 BTCs and a smaller amount of ETH (I need to check but I think around 10-15 ETH) and then a tiny amount of alt shrapnel (as in 1/10th of 1% of my total crypto).

In case anyone is wondering why I can't provide he exact amount, is basically because my physical access device is stored remotely, and when I buy (as I am still nibbling away at BTC), I send right away to that wallet address.