How did you get started?

[Davidtheman100]

Are the mg weight/gender/height/amount of test used based? Or a one size fits all guess?

It's really a one size fits all for the most part. You shouldn't even cycle to begin with if you're over 20% bf though IMO..Unless you're like 230 5'8" and are around 20% and it's clear you lift/are strong...Having training and diet dialed in is important to be able to make gains on cycle, but more importantly to keep them. Only issue is your body can only hold a certain amount of muscle. (Which many training naturally for a long time realize is not much at all) So if you stay off for too long when you're done...You were revert back to the size you were before...Yes for months at a time you can maintain an above natural physique off-cycle after cycling by eating sufficient calories and trying to rain just as heavy + not much cardio BUTTT it is inevitable that you will revert back to your size eventually. Most times in less than 5 months you will FULLY return back unless you heavily cycled which would be more than 13 weeks...This is why they say "you can never only do one cycle" .... It's really true

[Bulgarian_enforcer]

It's really a one size fits all for the most part. You shouldn't even cycle to begin with if you're over 20% bf though IMO..Unless you're like 230 5'8" and are around 20% and it's clear you lift/are strong...Having training and diet dialed in is important to be able to make gains on cycle, but more importantly to keep them. Only issue is your body can only hold a certain amount of muscle. (Which many training naturally for a long time realize is not much at all) So if you stay off for too long when you're done...You were revert back to the size you were before...Yes for months at a time you can maintain an above natural physique off-cycle after cycling by eating sufficient calories and trying to rain just as heavy + not much cardio BUTTT it is inevitable that you will revert back to your size eventually. Most times in less than 5 months you will FULLY return back unless you heavily cycled which would be more than 13 weeks...This is why they say "you can never only do one cycle" .... It's really true

Agree with everything you say above. However, I was wondering can one permanently (provided he trains and eats right) increase his frame size/muscle holding ability with long term HGH supplementation that will lead to hyperplasia?

I mean if I stop the GH and AAS i will still have those new cells and if I take care of them (eat and train) I should be able to keep more gains then before using GH.

I might be entirety wrong but am interested what is your opinion on the matter.

[Davidtheman100]

Agree with everything you say above. However, I was wondering can one permanently (provided he trains and eats right) increase his frame size/muscle holding ability with long term HGH supplementation that will lead to hyperplasia?

I mean if I stop the GH and AAS i will still have those new cells and if I take care of them (eat and train) I should be able to keep more gains then before using GH.

I might be entirety wrong but am interested what is your opinion on the matter.

No once you stop HGH you will still be able to hold onto some gains but it's inevitable that you will continue too shrink down to whatever your body can hold with your test levels provided you aren't injecting anything or go back to trt... which like i said before,, is not alot. You won't permanently have new cells...If this were the case people would only need 1 run with GH and then they would never have to use it again...You see what i'm saying? Your size can only be as big as the limit of size one can be on the drugs you're taking...So say 500mg test can only yield a 5'8" guy 180 6% bf then you will never be better than this and you will only match this after a certain amount of time on that dosage...Of corse this gets thrown out the window if you have used many other anabolics and GH, insulin etc so if you're 230 and use 500mg test you will obviously be over 180 for a period of time....But this is for the person starting anabolics on that dosage...

[Bulgarian_enforcer]

No once you stop HGH you will still be able to hold onto some gains but it's inevitable that you will continue too shrink down to whatever your body can hold with your test levels provided you aren't injecting anything or go back to trt... which like i said before,, is not alot. You won't permanently have new cells...If this were the case people would only need 1 run with GH and then they would never have to use it again...You see what i'm saying? Your size can only be as big as the limit of size one can be on the drugs you're taking...So say 500mg test can only yield a 5'8" guy 180 6% bf then you will never be better than this and you will only match this after a certain amount of time on that dosage...Of corse this gets thrown out the window if you have used many other anabolics and GH, insulin etc so if you're 230 and use 500mg test you will obviously be over 180 for a period of time....But this is for the person starting anabolics on that dosage...

Any idea for how long after IGF goes to normal ranges you get to keep the new muscle cells?

I though my skeleton frame increased permanently. My fists and head are definitively bigger.

[Davidtheman100]

Any idea for how long after IGF goes to normal ranges you get to keep the new muscle cells?

I though my skeleton frame increased permanently. My fists and head are definitively bigger.

Yes signs of things like acromegaly are permanent. Negatives are usually the most permanent. This is how it works. Hyperplasmia of the muscle cell is 0% permanent, however. There are protein markers and such trackers that can check if you've been using GH even though IGF levels will return shortly after discontinuing use of GH. It really would all depend on your dosages and how long you've used....I'd say even dropping 2iu would help worlds more in holding onto the muscle cells for a longer period of time than completely discontinuing even though the HTPA won't even be negatively effected for a day your levels still will not be able to suffice for the 2iu you could have been doing....It's double the horse power and double the help...I like to use 5 months as a marker because after 5 months off regardless of what you took your body has lost extreme amounts of size if not all....These IFBB top pros if they stopped taking everything in 5 months you would not even be able to recognize them even though they're spent years and years building a base...The base is never loyal...You get a bad sickness...Base is not loyal...

You're talking crumbs and cheez-its with me though...I haven't dropped GH to 0 in a while....I don't worry about keeping my gains after a 6 month GH blast...I don't "cycle"...I stay on...It's a tougher question for me to answer...But just based on logic and what i've seen this is my depiction/prediction of what will happen...

[Bulgarian_enforcer]

Yes signs of things like acromegaly are permanent. Negatives are usually the most permanent. This is how it works. Hyperplasmia of the muscle cell is 0% permanent, however. There are protein markers and such trackers that can check if you've been using GH even though IGF levels will return shortly after discontinuing use of GH. It really would all depend on your dosages and how long you've used....I'd say even dropping 2iu would help worlds more in holding onto the muscle cells for a longer period of time than completely discontinuing even though the HTPA won't even be negatively effected for a day your levels still will not be able to suffice for the 2iu you could have been doing....It's double the horse power and double the help...I like to use 5 months as a marker because after 5 months off regardless of what you took your body has lost extreme amounts of size if not all....These IFBB top pros if they stopped taking everything in 5 months you would not even be able to recognize them even though they're spent years and years building a base...The base is never loyal...You get a bad sickness...Base is not loyal...

You're talking crumbs and cheez-its with me though...I haven't dropped GH to 0 in a while....I don't worry about keeping my gains after a 6 month GH blast...I don't "cycle"...I stay on...It's a tougher question for me to answer...But just based on logic and what i've seen this is my depiction/prediction of what will happen...

Thx, Dave. Once again I appreciate you sharing your experience.

[Littleguyontheprairie]

This is why they say "you can never only do one cycle" .... It's really true

That was very depressing to read!

[Littleguyontheprairie]

Say someone were to plan 500mg/week for 13 weeks. A store has marked 250mg/ml Test E at $40.00. Does that mean it costs 80.00/week for 13 weeks ($1,040 over 13 weeks)?

I think I'm reading into it way wrong. Its 250mg per ml and a 10ml container?

[phreak]

Say someone were to plan 500mg/week for 13 weeks. A store has marked 250mg/ml Test E at $40.00. Does that mean it costs 80.00/week for 13 weeks ($1,040 over 13 weeks)?

I think I'm reading into it way wrong. Its 250mg per ml and a 10ml container?

500 mg = 2 ml weekly. So a 10 ml vial will last you 5 weeks. If you plan on using 13 weeks, you would need 3 $40 vials. Cheaper than protein powder.

[Littleguyontheprairie]

Well, I have an appointment for a physical and I figure I'll bring up that I want to get some blood work done while I'm there to see where I'm at. If he agrees to be some what off the books I'll consult him about my plans.

I'd like to thank you guys for all the answers to my questions, as stupid as they may seem to some of you, you still gave me your opinion instead of just trolling me.

Hopefully my doc ends up being a good guy.

[Davidtheman100]

Well, I have an appointment for a physical and I figure I'll bring up that I want to get some blood work done while I'm there to see where I'm at. If he agrees to be some what off the books I'll consult him about my plans.

I'd like to thank you guys for all the answers to my questions, as stupid as they may seem to some of you, you still gave me your opinion instead of just trolling me.

Hopefully my doc ends up being a good guy.

I would never discuss gear use with a doctor as they'll probably note that about you afterward

[Littleguyontheprairie]

That's why i said off the books. If he agrees.. I mean, he has to be some what on the same page as to why I'm getting tested, no?

[Davidtheman100]

That's why i said off the books. If he agrees.. I mean, he has to be some what on the same page as to why I'm getting tested, no?

Not really lol...Wanting to know bloodwork is a common thing

[Littleguyontheprairie]

Won't the fluctuations reviewed be a pretty obvious sign? Or is that how it works? I play in the obvious area but never really talk about it?

[Bulgarian_enforcer]

Won't the fluctuations reviewed be a pretty obvious sign? Or is that how it works? I play in the obvious area but never really talk about it?

Most docs dont know shit about hormone usage and telling them you use AAS can do more harm than help.

I do my own bloodwork but I have to pay for it at the local labs.

[Littleguyontheprairie]

Well, due to my asking for blood work to check some levels he casually brought up anabolic steroid usage. I shrugged it off at first and ordered my tests and completed my physical. Part of the reason I chose him was he is skilled in both family medicine and athletics/joint injections. It's both interesting and comforting to know they don't fondle your nutsack anymore. I asked if he could answer some questions between us and he agreed. Everything I asked was hypothetical, but he insisted if I were to choose that route I should notify him so he knows to check my liver/my nuts/ and other risks. He also gave me the mandatory 'risks' speech but was overall understanding and pretty strait forward.

This was against forum advice but I feel as though I should take all precautions, now and during, if this is the path I'm going to choose.

[Littleguyontheprairie]

How bad are these numbers? Am I naturally doomed? I am in the 30-34 age range.

Component                             Standard Range           Your Value
Testosterone Adult Male       300 - 1080 ng/dL        342
Testosterone Percentage Free      1.6 - 2.9 %               2.0
Testosterone Free Calculation     47 - 244 pg/mL        70
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin         11 - 80 nmol/L       26

[equipoise]

How bad are these numbers? Am I naturally doomed? I am in the 30-34 age range.

Component                             Standard Range           Your Value
Testosterone Adult Male       300 - 1080 ng/dL        342
Testosterone Percentage Free      1.6 - 2.9 %               2.0
Testosterone Free Calculation     47 - 244 pg/mL        70
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin         11 - 80 nmol/L       26

Test levels are on the low end but not disastrous. Try a power PCT with nolva and clomid and retest in a few months time. In the meantime use cialis/viagra if you have to

[Overload]

How bad are these numbers? Am I naturally doomed? I am in the 30-34 age range.

Component                             Standard Range           Your Value
Testosterone Adult Male       300 - 1080 ng/dL        342
Testosterone Percentage Free      1.6 - 2.9 %               2.0
Testosterone Free Calculation     47 - 244 pg/mL        70
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin         11 - 80 nmol/L       26

You are right there with me.  I'm not much older than you and my values are similar.

You are a candidate for TRT and should seek it if you want a better quality of life.

Find a doctor who is open with using Testosterone and let him monitor your blood work.

Good luck!

[Littleguyontheprairie]

Well that's pretty awesome, wheres the line? 350? I got these done first thing in the morning which should reflect my peak levels from what I've read.

[Overload]

Well that's pretty awesome, wheres the line? 350? I got these done first thing in the morning which should reflect my peak levels from what I've read.

Depends on the Doctor, but anything below 400 usually triggers a TRT script.

Some might not put you on injectables, but at 350 you are at the low range of normal.

I got a script when I was ~450 a few years ago.

[Littleguyontheprairie]

Well my doctor attached notes to all my tests, "your labs look good". I guess, if good is on the low-low end of normal but I don't want to be low-normal.

I've gone ahead and ordered a bunch of crap.

-Test E
-Needles+syringe
-Swabs
-Arimidex
-Nolvadex
-Clomid
-Place to put used needles since it was like $3.25 for the container and I wanted to use a centralized safe place for them as I have a kid. I've read about people using empty bleach bottles but I figured something actually built for the application would be best.

From what I've read this is a pretty basic bundle for a first timer. I've also read a lot of scary and conflicting stories regarding the Arimidex/Nolvadex/Clomid. Re: when to start the Arimidex - some say immediately, some say 3rd or 4th week or when you feel it's needed. I'm afraid that I won't know when if I play the 'by feeling' game as I don't know what that would feel like.

[Bulgarian_enforcer]

Well my doctor attached notes to all my tests, "your labs look good". I guess, if good is on the low-low end of normal but I don't want to be low-normal.

I've gone ahead and ordered a bunch of crap.

-Test E
-Needles+syringe
-Swabs
-Arimidex
-Nolvadex
-Clomid
-Place to put used needles since it was like $3.25 for the container and I wanted to use a centralized safe place for them as I have a kid. I've read about people using empty bleach bottles but I figured something actually built for the application would be best.

From what I've read this is a pretty basic bundle for a first timer. I've also read a lot of scary and conflicting stories regarding the Arimidex/Nolvadex/Clomid. Re: when to start the Arimidex - some say immediately, some say 3rd or 4th week or when you feel it's needed. I'm afraid that I won't know when if I play the 'by feeling' game as I don't know what that would feel like.

I personally do not like Arimidex (may kill your estro) so much unless you are running a lot of heavy gear such as dbol, high test, etc. Proviron 25mg ED keeps my estro and libido in check if use AAS below a gram per week.

[phreak]

Depends on the Doctor, but anything below 400 usually triggers a TRT script.

Some might not put you on injectables, but at 350 you are at the low range of normal.

I got a script when I was ~450 a few years ago.

Sweet Jesus! I could not even get TRT when I was at 216 ng/dl. My father (69 at the time) had higher T than me!

[Overload]

Sweet Jesus! I could not even get TRT when I was at 216 ng/dl. My father (69 at the time) had higher T than me!

Was this a GP or an Endo?

My GP wouldn't even consider putting me on TRT.  My Endo encouraged it the following week.

216 is bottom.  That's not a healthy level.  A lot of Doctors these days are more open to it, but it all depends on what they are comfortable with.