Another Anti-Deadlift Screed

[Vince B]

It's not the best or worst exercise, it all depends on how you're built. For some it can be wonderful and effective. It does recruit a bunch of muscles, duh, and if those muscles have potential to hypertrophy in your case the deadlift is going to be effective.

My routine has been deadlift centric for years and my physique looks like shit but it would be even worse without deads. It's fun as hell to pull hard.

It does make you look stronger, gives a powerful look with big traps, neck and upper back and forearms if the genetics are there. You don't get the same from pullups for example.

Finally we find out you admit you look like shit. So how come if you are supposed to know so much about training, etc.?
Way too many jerks do those stupid deadlifts. I suspect because they have nothing so need to impress others by how much they can lift and let bang down on the gym floors.
I see no reason whatever to include deadlifts in an exercise program.

[Van_Bilderass]

Finally we find out you admit you look like shit. So how come if you are supposed to know so much about training, etc.?
Way too many jerks do those stupid deadlifts. I suspect because they have nothing so need to impress others by how much they can lift and let bang down on the gym floors.
I see no reason whatever to include deadlifts in an exercise program.

I always said I look like shit. If I looked great I would have posted pics. One can know a thing or two without looking great, and conversely one can be a moron and look like a million bucks. You don't look so hot either for the past several decades yet you argue with anyone and everyone about training. So your putdown comes right back at you.

Anyway, some people just enjoy lifting heavy weights. I marvel at lifters like Konstantin Konstantinov deadlifting huge weights, others think it's stupid and that's fine. For me lifting itself is almost spiritual. To pick increasingly heavier weights off the floor takes a lot of fortitude, it doesn't happen by accident. Some people get a lot of satisfaction out of managing to get stronger year after year, even if hardly anyone else cares. Didn't you brag about having a strong grip? Same thing.

As for deadlifts being completely useless for bodybuilding, well they aren't absolutely essential, no single exercise is. But they can definitely be useful for many people.

This is great. For some reason can't post vid here

[rocket]

Anyway, some people just enjoy lifting heavy weights. I marvel at lifters like Konstantin Konstantinov deadlifting huge weights, others think it's stupid and that's fine. For me lifting itself is almost spiritual. To pick increasingly heavier weights off the floor takes a lot of fortitude, it doesn't happen by accident. Some people get a lot of satisfaction out of managing to get stronger year after year, even if hardly anyone else cares. Didn't you brag about having a strong grip? Same thing.

I'm with you.  I just like getting better at stuff.  The harder the challenge, the more satisfaction in completing it. 

I find no solace in bodybuilding.  I can either take steroids and essentially cheat myself by expanding my boundaries, rather than working for them - or I can shoot for strength, which is a deeper pursuit that natural bodybuilding (I mean that it has a longer time to max out).

(Before bodybuilders rage, understand that this just my thing - I'm trying to outdo myself without just simply buying drugs that allow me to do that easily.  I don't give a fuck what you're doing, I'm competing against myself, not you).

And yeah, Vince B most assuredly has bragged about his grip strength, many times.  My guess is that he is naturally a good grip, though. 

Deadlifts are a great litmus test for what I'm doing in the gym. 

I wouldn't do them if I were a bodybuilder because I think there is credence to the theory that they thicken the core.

[Van_Bilderass]

And yeah, Vince B most assuredly has bragged about his grip strength, many times.  My guess is that he is naturally a good grip, though. 

 

I think Vince tore his bicep deadlifting something like 440lbs IIRC. So now they are totally useless.

I think gripping strength is very genetic, sure everything else is too, but gripping especially. I know the dude who has won the "gripping nationals" for decade straight here in Sweden isn't that strong otherwise, though he is a strongman.

https://www.instagram.com/kallelane666/

[Vince B]

I think Vince tore his bicep deadlifting something like 440lbs IIRC. So now they are totally useless.

I think gripping strength is very genetic, sure everything else is too, but gripping especially. I know the dude who has won the "gripping nationals" for decade straight here in Sweden isn't that strong otherwise, though he is a strongman.

https://www.instagram.com/kallelane666/

I tore my right biceps doing 509 pounds with only a 400 pound warmup. My arm is still strong but weak in the supination movement which sucks. Eg., I can't arm wrestle right handed now.
By the way, pinch gripping isn't natural unless someone uses their grip in a job. Training increases grip strength 2 or 3 times what one starts out at.

I am not against guys lifting for strength but I hated some little guys who did noisy deadlifts in the gym which annoyed everyone.

[rocket]

I tore my right biceps doing 509 pounds with only a 400 pound warmup. My arm is still strong but weak in the supination movement which sucks. Eg., I can't arm wrestle right handed now.
By the way, pinch gripping isn't natural unless someone uses their grip in a job. Training increases grip strength 2 or 3 times what one starts out at.

I am not against guys lifting for strength but I hated some little guys who did noisy deadlifts in the gym which annoyed everyone.

As a contrast, when I get to 230kg and beyond, I have always done 60, 100, 140, 180, 200, 210, 220 and sometimes 225 (almost all singles).

If I try to skip too much, I'm not warm and my form / power suffers.

[SF1900]

I always said I look like shit. If I looked great I would have posted pics. One can know a thing or two without looking great, and conversely one can be a moron and look like a million bucks. You don't look so hot either for the past several decades yet you argue with anyone and everyone about training. So your putdown comes right back at you.

Anyway, some people just enjoy lifting heavy weights. I marvel at lifters like Konstantin Konstantinov deadlifting huge weights, others think it's stupid and that's fine. For me lifting itself is almost spiritual. To pick increasingly heavier weights off the floor takes a lot of fortitude, it doesn't happen by accident. Some people get a lot of satisfaction out of managing to get stronger year after year, even if hardly anyone else cares. Didn't you brag about having a strong grip? Same thing.

As for deadlifts being completely useless for bodybuilding, well they aren't absolutely essential, no single exercise is. But they can definitely be useful for many people.

This is great. For some reason can't post vid here

Vince Basile has a beautiful belly

[Van_Bilderass]

As a contrast, when I get to 230kg and beyond, I have always done 60, 100, 140, 180, 200, 210, 220 and sometimes 225 (almost all singles).

If I try to skip too much, I'm not warm and my form / power suffers.

Even after decades of lifting I still often make the mistake of not warming up enough. I imagine that too many warm-ups will hurt my strength when I doubt it would, and would decrease the chance of pulling some muscle or in worst case scenario actually tearing something. Just yesterday I messed up with too few warmups and felt something concerning in my hamstring, a slight pull, so missed my planned top set. 
Still I never add more than one plate per warm-up set, but would probably do better doing more than one set per increment, especially since many are just singles.

[stavios]

Even after decades of lifting I still often make the mistake of not warming up enough. I imagine that too many warm-ups will hurt my strength when I doubt it would, and would decrease the chance of pulling some muscle or in worst case scenario actually tearing something. Just yesterday I messed up with too few warmups and felt something concerning in my hamstring, a slight pull, so missed my planned top set. 
Still I never add more than one plate per warm-up set, but would probably do better doing more than one set per increment, especially since many are just singles.

As soon as you pull an hamstring you are fucked for life.
I pulled mine once in 2011 and than i pull the same hamstring (left leg) almost every year afterward. Sometimes while deadlifting but also while sprinting.

Now i'm scared shitless of running with any kind of intensity lol

[Van_Bilderass]

As soon as you pull an hamstring you are fucked for life.
I pulled mine once in 2011 and than i pull the same hamstring (left leg) almost every year afterward. Sometimes while deadlifting but also while sprinting.

Now i'm scared shitless of running with any kind of intensity lol

I tore mine maybe 3 years ago deadlifting, it popped and my training partner could hear it  
It went black and blue a couple of days later. I waited a few days to go to the doc, I wanted the bruising to show, otherwise they wouldn't
know if anything had happened at all and might dismiss me. Doc was like, "shit, you really did something there".
I had just previsouly read an article on hamstring tears so I immediately applied pressure on it with a knee wrap although it hurt like
hell. This can cut recovery time by a lot supposedly. Then I also immediately started moving and light loading so it would "heal right" with no adhesions etc. I came back real well and am stronger now on deads. But what you say is true, hamstring pulls and tears are often reoccurring. Now I'm of course a little paranoid when loading it.

I mentioned powerlifter Konstantinov before. This is fuckin manly, and a great look for a PL 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BWSF7sknOAD/

[Al Doggity]

I get carryover strength gains from deads. I notice it on rows. I notice it on squats - I can do zero squats or any other lower body movement, except deads, for a year and my squat will still be 500lbs if I tested it. No way would that be the case if I didn't even deadlift and did only upper body movements. If I get stronger on deads squats will also improve (and vice versa). I notice rowing or pulling exercise performance doesn't seem to suffer if I do deads first in a back routine, the opposite is the case... I believe deads prime the CNS somehow.

Many people can't squat well due to a weak lower back, many have the lower back excuse for not squatting at all. maybe they could if they did some deads.

  I guess it's something that is up to the individual, but that def has not been the case with me. During my major deadlift phases, I actually was trying to figure out how it would fit into my workout- either as my main back exercise or my main leg exercise- and I was stunned by how much my squats would either plateau or drop the more I focused on deads. Whenever I was focusing on deads, I would reincorporate squats and that would help me advance on deads. In another post, you even link to an article about the WSBC using other exercises to increase deads.
When I see something like this- an old woman who picked up deadlifing in her 50s and can now do 225 for reps- I would be willing to wager she isn't putting up unexpected numbers on other exercises.

[Al Doggity]

your shrugs will improve, the farmer's walk will improve, overall gripping ability will improve, any type of picking up from floor will improve. . Your barbell calve raises will improve (stability). Your ability to shovel snow and dirt will improve. Dumb genetics.

This is all well and good, but it all falls into the category of stuff I would consider negligible.

Totally disagree. I can easily spend 6 weeks improving the leg press, then go back to the squat only to find it's down, and vice versa. Leg extensions, if you don't do them you will will never be at your best with them.

Maybe that post was worded poorly for the sake of brevity, but I was thinking specifically of the kid I mentioned in the opening post. My point wasn't that peaking on one exercise means you will set PRs on every exercise for that bodypart, but that you would expect your strength to be within a comparable range on exercises you don't regularly do.

[Al Doggity]

Al, I wish it didn't take me 15 years of being in the gym to figure this out. Unless genetic elite, doing the one BP per day for a natural will seriously depress or retard your gains. Why I wasted so much time with forearm work, calve work, bicep work etc, I can only thank the magazines. What a waste

As a little experiment, I decided to only work out the groups that I felt benefited the look I wanted the most, so for the last 5 months it's been chest, and delts and some back if I feel like It. Just one or two exercises per day of chest and Delts. After month 4, I had brand new chest stretch marks that I hadn't received since I was in year one-two of lifting. So I know these gains are new. Overall I look much more muscular than I did. My arms haven't lost anything (no direct arm work in 5 months), and I'm having more fun just lifting the BP I want to. No longer a slave to splits and theories.

Yeah, even though that's slightly off-topic, I have always seen exponentially better results training a bodypart multiple times a week. I train everything twice a week now and would probably do three if that was possible with any split I liked. There are times when life gets in the way and I can only do a single session a week and it feels like I am regressing. That might be partly psychosomatic, but I always feel like I can see a difference in my body when I'm hitting a bp less frequently.

[Al Doggity]

Also can run faster and jump higher.

Entire posterior chain gets stronger.

I'm gonna say I'm not convinced about this. I googled a bunch of different running/sprinting weight programs and none of them included standard deadlifts, even though most did include stiff-legged deadlifts. I never felt like deadlifts impacted my speed or even stamina. The latter point actually surprised me, because I remember when I did my first deadlift session with 135, I felt like I was dying. The reason I started doing them was because I felt like I couldn't be in "good shape" if they took that much out of me. 

[Grape Ape]

I'm gonna say I'm not convinced about this. I googled a bunch of different running/sprinting weight programs and none of them included standard deadlifts, even though most did include stiff-legged deadlifts. I never felt like deadlifts impacted my speed or even stamina. The latter point actually surprised me, because I remember when I did my first deadlift session with 135, I felt like I was dying. The reason I started doing them was because I felt like I couldn't be in "good shape" if they took that much out of me.  

How is something that makes your calves, hamstrings, quads and ass stronger not going to help you run faster and jump higher?

As for stamina, they're a big part of the Soflete stamina plan I'm currently running - try this and see how you feel:

Max effort: as many reps as possible in 10 or 15 minutes:
DL @ 225
KB Swings x 10 @ 50lb
Ring row x 10

[Al Doggity]

How is something that makes your calves, hamstrings, quads and ass stronger not going to help you run faster and jump higher?

I guess you can make this argument with any leg, calf or hamstring exercise. Stronger legs theoretically = more speed/greater jumping ability, but I'm not so sure it holds water. Benching doesn't give you a stronger/faster punch, unless it's part of a boxing or fighting centric program. A lot of boxers are against weight training altogether.

[Grape Ape]

I guess you can make this argument with any leg, calf or hamstring exercise. Stronger legs theoretically = more speed/greater jumping ability, but I'm not so sure it holds water. Benching doesn't give you a stronger/faster punch, unless it's part of a boxing or fighting centric program. A lot of boxers are against weight training altogether.

Plenty of articles out there.......

http://completetrackandfield.com/does-the-squat-and-deadlift-improve-sprinting-speed/

http://www.stack.com/a/how-your-deadlift-max-will-make-you-faster

[Al Doggity]

Plenty of articles out there.......

http://completetrackandfield.com/does-the-squat-and-deadlift-improve-sprinting-speed/

http://www.stack.com/a/how-your-deadlift-max-will-make-you-faster

Firstly, both of those articles point out that it flies in the face of conventional wisdom and is counter to what most collegiate and pro programs are doing.

Secondly, the first link doesn't really provide "proof" that deadlifts increase speed. It uses a variety of points from other studies and then uses those points to conclude that deadlifts should increase speed.

The second link emphasizes that the speed benefit the guru is touting is only apparent when formulated in a strength-to-weight ration... which is an important distinction considering we've been talking about bodybuilding and powerlifting for the majority of this thread.
Plus, I think it's important to note that that guy is a guru. Not that he is automatically wrong, but he is marketing a hook- his "force number" and the simplest way to increase it. His clients obviously do a lot of other targeted work when working with him.

[TheShape.]

I fear the warmups and ramp ups more than the big lifts.

They are the ones where my concentration and respect for the weight are lower.

Deadlift is an important powerlifting exercise.

Deadlift is not an important bodybuilding exercise.

I don't think I'd do them if I were a bodybuilder.  In fact, it'd be a glorious thing to not have to do them because they are easily the most stressful on your body exercise. 

We all know why they are the "king":

They are hard.  Many people loathe them.  There are days when you pulled 5 or six plates last week and you come to the bar and 4 plates feels like such a c.unt.  I've never had any exercise that really requires as much focus as deadlift.

Very accurate statements, I used to deadlift very heavy every week. However, there would be certain days where I'd knock 500 lbs out of the park and then the week after (or if I missed a session) 405 would feel heavy. The mental concentration and the whole wiped out feeling after them is just not worth it to me anymore as a natural lifter, I no longer care about big strength but just to look my best. In addition my knees really started to bother me at those heavier weights 450+. I used to be very pro deadlift but I believe it's more suited for people who are starting strength.

[chaos]

Finally we find out you admit you look like shit. So how come if you are supposed to know so much about training, etc.? 

Insane amounts of hypocrisy!

I tore my right biceps doing 509 pounds with only a 400 pound warmup. My arm is still strong but weak in the supination movement which sucks. Eg., I can't arm wrestle right handed now.
By the way, pinch gripping isn't natural unless someone uses their grip in a job. Training increases grip strength 2 or 3 times what one starts out at.

I am not against guys lifting for strength but I hated some little guys who did noisy deadlifts in the gym which annoyed everyone.

"only" 400# warm up? Sounds to me like you overstressed your biceps on that stupid fucking contraption you "invented" to overcomplicate a simple bicep curl.

[Grape Ape]

Firstly, both of those articles point out that it flies in the face of conventional wisdom and is counter to what most collegiate and pro programs are doing.

Secondly, the first link doesn't really provide "proof" that deadlifts increase speed. It uses a variety of points from other studies and then uses those points to conclude that deadlifts should increase speed.

The second link emphasizes that the speed benefit the guru is touting is only apparent when formulated in a strength-to-weight ration... which is an important distinction considering we've been talking about bodybuilding and powerlifting for the majority of this thread.
Plus, I think it's important to note that that guy is a guru. Not that he is automatically wrong, but he is marketing a hook- his "force number" and the simplest way to increase it. His clients obviously do a lot of other targeted work when working with him.

This seems to very important to you.

[tommywishbone]

Pulled Tuesday. Started 14 week prep for a comp. 500 x 5 x 10. It felt like 315. I'm big a strong.

Carry on. 

[Al Doggity]

This seems to very important to you.

I accept your apology.

[local hero]

As soon as you pull an hamstring you are fucked for life.
I pulled mine once in 2011 and than i pull the same hamstring (left leg) almost every year afterward. Sometimes while deadlifting but also while sprinting.

Now i'm scared shitless of running with any kind of intensity lol

I've torn the left the a few yrs later the right deadlifting, tore both of them having a sprint against my nephew last summer, its shit they will never be the same after a tear.....