Author Topic: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism  (Read 816 times)

Straw Man

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Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« on: October 21, 2020, 02:23:13 PM »
I guess she's going to make an exception for the obvious fact that when The Consitution was ratified women explicitly were NOT given the right to vote, or be judges.


Quote
"That means that I interpret the Constitution as a law... I understand it to have the meaning that it had at the time people ratified it. That meaning doesn't change over time and it's not up to me to update it or infuse my policy views into it."

Kahn.N.Singh

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2020, 02:47:50 PM »
Hi, Straw,

No exception needed, as this is a weak example. Ratification of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution took place on August 20, 1920. As you know, for an originalist the meaning of the law is interpreted (and held) from the time it was enacted, not before its adoption, and not before a time when it didn't exist like the Constitution's establishment in 1787.

All best,
Kahn

The Scott

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2020, 04:15:52 PM »
I guess she's going to make an exception for the obvious fact that when The Consitution was ratified women explicitly were NOT given the right to vote, or be judges.

That would include kunts such as yourself you pathetic un-American fuckwad.  You should be deported to islime lands.  cRapture now, you whole ass of an asshole.

Montague

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2020, 04:24:34 PM »
Hi, Straw,

No exception needed, as this is a weak example. Ratification of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution took place on August 20, 1920. As you know, for an originalist the meaning of the law is interpreted (and held) from the time it was enacted, not before its adoption, and not before a time when it didn't exist like the Constitution's establishment in 1787.

All best,
Kahn


Very good post.

Coach is Back!

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2020, 04:50:17 PM »
I guess she's going to make an exception for the obvious fact that when The Consitution was ratified women explicitly were NOT given the right to vote, or be judges.

.


Montague

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2020, 05:44:59 PM »
^^ HA, HA, HA!!!!

Straw Man

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2020, 06:27:22 PM »
Hi, Straw,

No exception needed, as this is a weak example. Ratification of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution took place on August 20, 1920. As you know, for an originalist the meaning of the law is interpreted (and held) from the time it was enacted, not before its adoption, and not before a time when it didn't exist like the Constitution's establishment in 1787.

All best,
Kahn

I can see your point but that's not what she said

Did Scalia think the Constitution was a "living document"

Do originalists or  "strict constructionis" think that it is?

Walter Sobchak

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2020, 07:47:25 PM »
I can see your point but that's not what she said

Did Scalia think the Constitution was a "living document"

Do originalists or  "strict constructionis" think that it is?



Four more years of non-stop tears for Straw-Rob Ziruolo

Straw Man

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2020, 08:02:39 PM »


Four more years of non-stop tears for Straw-Rob Ziruolo

you seem oblivous to the fact that it's looking very likely that THE TRAITOR is going to lose

enjoy you delusion for a few more weeks after which I assume you'll whine and bitch and called "rigged" or some other nonsense


Walter Sobchak

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2020, 10:50:42 PM »
you seem oblivous to the fact that it's looking very likely that THE TRAITOR is going to lose

enjoy you delusion for a few more weeks after which I assume you'll whine and bitch and called "rigged" or some other nonsense

When President Donald Trump wins his 2nd term...I’m coming to see you in person Ziruolo.

You’re NOT going to like my party platform.

Teutonic Knight 1

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2020, 01:31:27 AM »
THE TRAITOR



THE TRAITOR was yours grandfather who COWARDLY escaped from Italy in 1944, OBW he was military LOOSER too  ;).

So be "PROUD" of yours fascist DNA !.

Va fanculo BoB !.


Kahn.N.Singh

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2020, 10:22:04 AM »
I can see your point but that's not what she said

Did Scalia think the Constitution was a "living document"

Do originalists or  "strict constructionis" think that it is?

Hi, Straw,

I think that Antonin Scalia's reference to the "Dead Constitution" is an unfortunate phrase, though I have been seeing some commentators instead referring to his idea as the "Enduring Constitution." Clearly, the Constitution itself is not a static document, but grows over time via added amendments. In this area, I am no Constitutional scholar, but I have taught American jurisprudence (and presented/published some work in this area) to be familiar with debates between the so-called "Living Constitution," which was championed by Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, and the so-called "Dead Constitution," which, again, was championed most forcefully by Scalia.
            Moreover, I am aware of conflicts over Supreme Court nominations dealing with whether judges would be (i) originalists or (ii) legislators from the bench (i.e., reading into the law political agendas). In other words, between, as put by Justice Earl Warren, reading a statute according to the stricter "letter" or the looser "spirit" of the law.
            However, the thorny issue is not the life or death of the document itself, but rather is the complicated problem of statutory interpretation. Scalia himself claimed he was a textualist first and originalist second. "Textualism" claims to be an intrinsic method that looks into the language of law as "construed according to its plain meaning." By contrast, "Intentionalism" looks extrinsically to factors not just contained in the exact words of a statute, but rather to considering "legislative history to clarify an ambiguous text."
            Making matters even more complicated is that both methods are not so fixed. For example, some commentators claim that "neither textualism nor intentionalism is rigidly mechanistic or limited to the action of the enacting Congress," with "textualists," for example, sometimes looking to broader legal contexts and "intentionalists" at times venturing beyond the enacting Congress's particular intent to preserve a statute's purposes." What this means is that neither approach is rigid, textualist sometimes look to extrinsic factors, while intentionalists look to intrinsic factors.
            In addition, complicating even more what is already complicated, there are other interpretive methods such as "pragmatism," [1]   
"purposivism," [2] and "practical reasoning" [3], about which I discern the problem of trying to settle on any one method to statutory interpretation.
            As you can see, setting up simple polarities between the "living" and "dead" Constitution and "originalism" and "pragmatism" only scratches the surface. I have a few concerns with Scalia's jurisprudential philosophy, but I think that he's right about not reading anything into the law that is not already there. However, make no mistake, ACB is the real deal and playing in the big leagues of jurisprudence.

Stay well,
Kahn


1.   Pragmatism takes into account a changing society, and "a pragmatist judge always tries to do the best he can for the present and the future, unchecked by any felt duty to secure consistency in principle with what other officials have done in the past."  See Richard A. Posner, "Pragmatic Adjudication," 18 Cardozo Law Review 1 (1996), p.4.
2.   Purposivism considers a law's intended purpose or goal at the time of its passing by keeping two things in mind, "first what is the natural meaning of the words used in the statute and second what are the purpose or object and reason of making a statute." See A.B. Kafaltiya, Interpretation of Statutes (New Delhi: Universal law Publishing, 2008), p. 37.
3.   "By 'practical reason,' we mean an approach that eschews objectivist theories in favor of a mixture of inductive and deductive reasoning (similar to the practice of the common law), seeking contextual justification for the best legal answer among the potential alternatives." See William N. Eskridge, Jr. and Philip P. Frickey, "Statutory Interpretation as Practical Reasoning," 42 Stanford Law Review 321 (1989-90), p. 322, fn. 3.


ThisisOverload

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Re: Amy Coney Barrett on originalism
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2020, 11:51:24 AM »
Hi, Straw,

I think that Antonin Scalia's reference to the "Dead Constitution" is an unfortunate phrase, though I have been seeing some commentators instead referring to his idea as the "Enduring Constitution." Clearly, the Constitution itself is not a static document, but grows over time via added amendments. In this area, I am no Constitutional scholar, but I have taught American jurisprudence (and presented/published some work in this area) to be familiar with debates between the so-called "Living Constitution," which was championed by Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, and the so-called "Dead Constitution," which, again, was championed most forcefully by Scalia.
            Moreover, I am aware of conflicts over Supreme Court nominations dealing with whether judges would be (i) originalists or (ii) legislators from the bench (i.e., reading into the law political agendas). In other words, between, as put by Justice Earl Warren, reading a statute according to the stricter "letter" or the looser "spirit" of the law.
            However, the thorny issue is not the life or death of the document itself, but rather is the complicated problem of statutory interpretation. Scalia himself claimed he was a textualist first and originalist second. "Textualism" claims to be an intrinsic method that looks into the language of law as "construed according to its plain meaning." By contrast, "Intentionalism" looks extrinsically to factors not just contained in the exact words of a statute, but rather to considering "legislative history to clarify an ambiguous text."
            Making matters even more complicated is that both methods are not so fixed. For example, some commentators claim that "neither textualism nor intentionalism is rigidly mechanistic or limited to the action of the enacting Congress," with "textualists," for example, sometimes looking to broader legal contexts and "intentionalists" at times venturing beyond the enacting Congress's particular intent to preserve a statute's purposes." What this means is that neither approach is rigid, textualist sometimes look to extrinsic factors, while intentionalists look to intrinsic factors.
            In addition, complicating even more what is already complicated, there are other interpretive methods such as "pragmatism," [1]   
"purposivism," [2] and "practical reasoning" [3], about which I discern the problem of trying to settle on any one method to statutory interpretation.
            As you can see, setting up simple polarities between the "living" and "dead" Constitution and "originalism" and "pragmatism" only scratches the surface. I have a few concerns with Scalia's jurisprudential philosophy, but I think that he's right about not reading anything into the law that is not already there. However, make no mistake, ACB is the real deal and playing in the big leagues of jurisprudence.

Stay well,
Kahn


1.   Pragmatism takes into account a changing society, and "a pragmatist judge always tries to do the best he can for the present and the future, unchecked by any felt duty to secure consistency in principle with what other officials have done in the past."  See Richard A. Posner, "Pragmatic Adjudication," 18 Cardozo Law Review 1 (1996), p.4.
2.   Purposivism consider a law's intended purpose or goal at the time of its passing by keeping two things in mind, "first what is the natural meaning of the words used in the statute and second what are the purpose or object and reason of making a statute." See A.B. Kafaltiya, Interpretation of Statutes (New Delhi: Universal law Publishing, 2008), p. 37.
3.   "By 'practical reason,' we mean an approach that eschews objectivist theories in favor of a mixture of inductive and deductive reasoning (similar to the practice of the common law), seeking contextual justification for the best legal answer among the potential alternatives." See William N. Eskridge, Jr. and Philip P. Frickey, "Statutory Interpretation as Practical Reasoning," 42 Stanford Law Review 321 (1989-90), p. 322, fn. 3.

Excellent well thought out response.

Just remember Straw has the intelligence of a doorknob.  Don't expect a response that means anything.  He will respond with his hate for Trump and call him a traitor most likely.  Might even link a few biased articles to divert from your articulate response.