Serious question - can someone explain the concept of 'paying your dues'?

[galain]

I've seen this mentioned often - most recently in relation to Big Ramy before he won yesterday.

People say "He needs to pay his dues", or "He hasn't paid his dues yet" about whoever it is under discussion.

Why? What does it matter if a guy comes out of nowhere, blows everyone away with size, conditioning, shape etc. That guy should win. Why is there this feeling that you need to show up in shape for a few years before you get recognised and acknowledged?

Almost seems as though there is some vested interest in keeping an existing name at the top, even if that name is undeserving. I don't get it.

[Humble Narcissist]

It is a stupid concept and always has been.

[Matt]

Jay Cutler beating Ramy in 2013.

Dexter Jackson beating Ramy in 2016.

Judges eventually notice injustices like that, which I think lead to giving the previously cheated bodybuilder an advantage in the case of a close contest [although, IMO, Ramy won this one hands down].

[Matt]

I've seen this mentioned often - most recently in relation to Big Ramy before he won yesterday.

People say "He needs to pay his dues", or "He hasn't paid his dues yet" about whoever it is under discussion.

Why? What does it matter if a guy comes out of nowhere, blows everyone away with size, conditioning, shape etc. That guy should win. Why is there this feeling that you need to show up in shape for a few years before you get recognised and acknowledged?

Almost seems as though there is some vested interest in keeping an existing name at the top, even if that name is undeserving. I don't get it.

Same topic, but in the UFC:

^ I would like to hear Narcissistic Deity's thoughts on this one. 

[Humble Narcissist]

It's stupid in any sport and it happens in MMA, boxing, bodybuilding and any other subjective sport with judges.

[Matt]

It's stupid in any sport and it happens in MMA, boxing, bodybuilding and any other subjective sport with judges.

Exactly...it's fascinating how it happens even among expert judges in MMA and boxing in particular, as they have so many measures in place to attempt to actually apply objective judging to subjective decisions.  Bodybuilding...that's just outright subjective, so it's not shocking to me that it happens so much in it.

Just my humble opinion.

[pamith]

I've seen this mentioned often - most recently in relation to Big Ramy before he won yesterday.

People say "He needs to pay his dues", or "He hasn't paid his dues yet" about whoever it is under discussion.

Why? What does it matter if a guy comes out of nowhere, blows everyone away with size, conditioning, shape etc. That guy should win. Why is there this feeling that you need to show up in shape for a few years before you get recognised and acknowledged?

Almost seems as though there is some vested interest in keeping an existing name at the top, even if that name is undeserving. I don't get it.

My nikka

[BB]

In bodybuilding, I've always taken it as spending enough time establishing a name for yourself in the hobby so they can safely move you up without causing trouble, it's a vetting practice much like politics.

They want to see how a guy handles losing, works with the public, and whether they can sell him to the most amount of people.

[Van_Bilderass]

You can come out of nowhere and win, it happens. Sometimes it's just undebatable that a newbie is superior.

"Politics" in bb often happens unconsciously, it doesn't have to be a conscious decision or a conspiracy by the judges to suppress or elevate a certain competitor. Judges may think they are objective but they are affected by hype or past performance, athlete personality etc, as is everyone else.

[IroNat]

"Paying your dues" is common in most competitions that use subjective judging.

Examples where it is common:

Bodybuilding
Olympics
Academy Awards

[OneMoreRep]

I've seen this phenomenon in professional bodybuilding for more than 40 years.

Some, like Kai Greene, will never have enough to "pay" the amount of dues necessary in order to undo their past.

"1"

[Van_Bilderass]

I've seen this phenomenon in professional bodybuilding for more than 40 years.

Some, like Kai Greene, will never have enough to "pay" the amount of dues necessary in order to undo their past.

"1"

What if his gay past actually helped him? Isn't the IFBB run by gays, wasn't that always the case, e.g the first Weider mags were obviously targeted at gays? I don't know if Kai was outright robbed at many shows. Lots of people loved his physique but many thought he was ugly too with the huge belly and oiled bodyparts.

[OneMoreRep]

What if his gay past actually helped him? Isn't the IFBB run by gays, wasn't that always the case, e.g the first Weider mags were obviously targeted at gays? I don't know if Kai was outright robbed at many shows. Lots of people loved his physique but many thought he was ugly too with the huge belly and oiled bodyparts.

Mostly closet gays, Van. In the public eye, these homosexuals will declare a straight-agenda through their calloused lips.

I wish they were more open and honest about their private choices, but they have images to upkeep and the optics, at least in their minds, matter.

"1"

[Explorerspl]

Exactly...it's fascinating how it happens even among expert judges in MMA and boxing in particular, as they have so many measures in place to attempt to actually apply objective judging to subjective decisions.  Bodybuilding...that's just outright subjective, so it's not shocking to me that it happens so much in it.

Just my humble opinion.

Wolf won In 2007,jay got a gift.

[galain]

Wolf won In 2007,jay got a gift.

Yes - I thought Wolf won in 2007 but I heard it then too - 'looked great but needs to pay his dues first'.

And St Pierre didn't come close to beating Hendricks in that fight. I know in fighting the 'you have to knock out the champ to beat the champ' saying has been around forever. Same shit. Still don't get why it's so accepted.

[Bevo]

Wolf won In 2007,jay got a gift.

Victor Martinez won in 2007........

[Humble Narcissist]

Mostly closet gays, Van. In the public eye, these homosexuals will declare a straight-agenda through their calloused lips.

I wish they were more open and honest about their private choices, but they have images to upkeep and the optics, at least in their minds, matter.

"1"

Can't let the wife know, (cough, cough) Betty Weider.  Oh, that's right, Joe is dead already.