What makes a liberal a non-Christian?

[OzmO]

On one of these subject threads someone made the assertion that liberals cannot be Christians.  I'm curious to hear and debate the reasoning.

[Mr. Intenseone]

How can one accept Jesus as his/her Lord and Saviour then go aginst then blatenly go aginst the scriptures? Just because one say they believe in God does not make them a Christian. Most Liberals I know don't even believe in God. I realize that that Christians go against scripture everyday and as I've said before, being a Christian is the absolute hardest thing a person can do, but, again, for example, MOST Liberals do support abortion, gay marriage, homosexulality, etc. How can a Liberal call themselves Christian and support these beliefs??

OzmO, I've been reading your posts and even though we don't agree on somethings, I like the way you have unbias opinions on both sides of the arguments.

[Johnny Apollo]

Define "Liberal".

Define "Conservative"


Don't list what they support or don't support.


Define the word "Liberal" and define the word "Conservative".

[OzmO]

How can one accept Jesus as his/her Lord and Saviour then go aginst then blatenly go aginst the scriptures? Just because one say they believe in God does not make them a Christian. Most Liberals I know don't even believe in God. I realize that that Christians go against scripture everyday and as I've said before, being a Christian is the absolute hardest thing a person can do, but, again, for example, MOST Liberals do support abortion, gay marriage, homosexulality, etc. How can a Liberal call themselves Christian and support these beliefs??

I think if you look at literally, conservatives and liberals go against the scriptures often, but not the same ones.  There a lot of details in the Bible (if i remember it right) about such things as how women should dress for example, that conservatives don't follow.  I can do some quick research and list some more later tonite maybe if i have time.  In regards to liberals supporting gay marriage, homosexuallity, etc...  Obviously not every liberal is gay and aborts their own children.  In fact i'm sure the percentage is close or reasonably proportionate to the national percantages.  Maybe Johnny will give us some stats on the subject.  I would think some liberals might believe that everyone is allowed (by God's gift of Man's free will) their own choices.  If they chose to go against it that's their issue with God.  From what i was taught in a non-denominatinal christian chruch was that if you belive Jesus was god on earth, was ressurected, and accept him as your savior who died for your sins, then you are a Christian. 

Romans 5 i believe says something like you are "justified by Faith". Their are so many things that can be constituted as a sin or that go against the scriptures.  If we are not careful by restricting people who can belong to a church based on whether or not they follow the bible 100% might leave us with a empty church.

As for living as a Chirstian.   About 10 years ago a good friend of mine helped me during a terrible time of need for me.  He was as close to a Bible literalist as i've ever seen.  He truely lives as the Bible tells him.  He has no TV, Home schools his 4 Children, His wife always wears dresses etc...  for a short time i went to his church and learned so much about Christianity that with chatholism i wasn't ready to learn or couldn't learn.  And although i do not mostly believe in what he or his church believes i have the up most repect for how he lives his life and the struggles he has doing so.  We are good friends and i talk withhim often.

Johnny, later maybe today, if i have some time,  i'll define them for you; or perhaps you can for us.   

 

[Butterbean]

If we are not careful by restricting people who can belong to a church based on whether or not they follow the bible 100% might leave us with a empty church.

 

"MIGHT" leave us w/an empty church is too gracious. 

If we restricted people who can belong to a church based on whether or not they follow the bible 100% we WOULD ABSOLUTELY be left with an empty church.

No one is capable of even following the 10 Commandments.

[Oldschool Flip]

lib·er·al    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.

Archaic. Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman.
Obsolete. Morally unrestrained; licentious.

n.
A person with liberal ideas or opinions.
Liberal A member of a Liberal political party.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, generous, from Old French, from Latin lberlis, from lber, free. See leudh- in Indo-European Roots.]




con·ser·va·tive    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kn-sūrv-tv)
adj.
Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.

Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

n.
One favoring traditional views and values.
A supporter of political conservatism.
Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Archaic. A preservative agent or principle.



Both from Dictionary.com

I am both a..............libervati ve....uh................ .conserberal...........g otta find a word

[w8tlftr]

Interesting topic.

What makes anyone a Christian, IMO, is their willingness to accept Christ as savior and try to serve the will of God as best they can. This holds true for social liberals or conservatives.

As Stella pointed out it's hard to try to be a lawful man which makes grace so important in our faith as Christians - it's our safety net.

Regardless of political affiliation we need to respect the free will of others. People have to be empowered to either succeed or fail based on their own decisions. Now this does not mean in anyway that we have to approve of their behavior or live in a world of anarchy. People still have to be held accountable for their actions. The $25,000 question is, accountable to whom? If it's a matter of God's law then only He is fit to judge. If it's the law of man then those authorized to enforce the law will hold them accountable.

If the law says that it's a woman's right to an abortion then fine it's her right. While I find it morally wrong, I respect her rights under the law and, more importantly, I'm not the one she has to ultimately answer to. Does that make me less of a Christian? I don't think so. I am still mandated to love and respect her and be there to help her up when she falls.

If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! (Ecclesiastes 4:10).

In the end liberal and conservative are just words in a dictionary. It's all about compassion and love.

[Colossus_500]

Interesting topic.

What makes anyone a Christian, IMO, is their willingness to accept Christ as savior and try to serve the will of God as best they can. This holds true for social liberals or conservatives.

As Stella pointed out it's hard to try to be a lawful man which makes grace so important in our faith as Christians - it's our safety net.

Regardless of political affiliation we need to respect the free will of others. People have to be empowered to either succeed or fail based on their own decisions. Now this does not mean in anyway that we have to approve of their behavior or live in a world of anarchy. People still have to be held accountable for their actions. The $25,000 question is, accountable to whom? If it's a matter of God's law then only He is fit to judge. If it's the law of man then those authorized to enforce the law will hold them accountable.

If the law says that it's a woman's right to an abortion then fine it's her right. While I find it morally wrong, I respect her rights under the law and, more importantly, I'm not the one she has to ultimately answer to. Does that make me less of a Christian? I don't think so. I am still mandated to love and respect her and be there to help her up when she falls.

If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! (Ecclesiastes 4:10).

In the end liberal and conservative are just words in a dictionary. It's all about compassion and love.

Well said, bro.  Good post. 

[OzmO]

If the law says that it's a woman's right to an abortion then fine it's her right. While I find it morally wrong, I respect her rights under the law and, more importantly, I'm not the one she has to ultimately answer to. Does that make me less of a Christian? I don't think so. I am still mandated to love and respect her and be there to help her up when she falls.

If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! (Ecclesiastes 4:10).

In the end liberal and conservative are just words in a dictionary. It's all about compassion and love

Well said.

[w8tlftr]

Thanks, guys. 

Every once in a while I get it right. 

[Johnny Apollo]

If the law says that it's a woman's right to an abortion then fine it's her right. While I find it morally wrong, I respect her rights under the law and, more importantly, I'm not the one she has to ultimately answer to. Does that make me less of a Christian? I don't think so. I am still mandated to love and respect her and be there to help her up when she falls.

So if someone has the right to throw you into a concentrantion camp during war time "under the law" do you respect that too?

What if we went to war with some asian country and the president like in WW2 mandated that all Asians are to be locked up into concentrantion camps for fear of them being spies..Would you respect that?


This whole "I respect the law" is nonsense. The law doesn't determine morality. If it's immoral to prevent a woman from removing a part of her own body then whatever the law says doesn't make a difference.

[w8tlftr]

So if someone has the right to throw you into a concentrantion camp during war time "under the law" do you respect that too?

What if we went to war with some asian country and the president like in WW2 mandated that all Asians are to be locked up into concentrantion camps for fear of them being spies..Would you respect that?


This whole "I respect the law" is nonsense. The law doesn't determine morality. If it's immoral to prevent a woman from removing a part of her own body then whatever the law says doesn't make a difference.

Johnny, does it hurt?

[OzmO]

What if we went to war with some asian country and the president like in WW2 mandated that all Asians are to be locked up into concentrantion camps for fear of them being spies..Would you respect that?

We did go to war with an asian county, Japan.  And it was only Japanese Americans who immagrated from Japan, persons of Japanese ancestry, and Japanese nationals, not Chinese, Philipino, Thia, Burmease etc... whom are all considered asian.

Not a very bright spot among others for U.S. History.

So if someone has the right to throw you into a concentrantion camp during war time "under the law" do you respect that too?

The differnce can be argued on the basis of when a fetus becomes a person.  If the fetus isn't considered a person in the first trimester  then there isn't a victim to the action other then the woman.

If you throw a person into prison camp then there is a victim.

So the comparison it's a bit extreme. 

If you believe the fetus is a person upon conception then you have a victim and a tough issue.  Which it has been.

This whole "I respect the law" is nonsense. The law doesn't determine morality. If it's immoral to prevent a woman from removing a part of her own body then whatever the law says doesn't make a difference.

The law may not determine it but it does govern it and influence it's identity.  The law(s) is neccessary  becuase our society and humans, in general, haven't evolved as a whole to the point of understanding and abstaining from commiting immoral acts with out consequences both spiritually and physically.

[Johnny Apollo]

We did go to war with an asian county, Japan.  And it was only Japanese Americans who immagrated from Japan, persons of Japanese ancestry, and Japanese nationals, not Chinese, Philipino, Thia, Burmease etc... whom are all considered asian.

Not a very bright spot among others for U.S. History.

Point being....The whole "I respect laws" makes no sense. If we went to war with whatever country W8lftr's ancestors come from and the president ordered all of them who's ancestors come from that country are to be locked up in concentrantion camps. My question was if he'd respect such a law. Obviously he wouldn't proving the hypocrisy.

The differnce can be argued on the basis of when a fetus becomes a person.  If the fetus isn't considered a person in the first trimester  then there isn't a victim to the action other then the woman.

If you throw a person into prison camp then there is a victim.

So the comparison it's a bit extreme. 

What are you talking about? If there is no victim in abortion then what's the problem?

W8lftr claimed that he believes aborition is immoral but since it's legal he respects the laws and womans rights.

His claim that it's immoral must mean there's a victim.

If you believe the fetus is a person upon conception then you have a victim and a tough issue.  Which it has been.

The law may not determine it but it does govern it and influence it's identity.  The law(s) is neccessary  becuase our society and humans, in general, haven't evolved as a whole to the point of understanding and abstaining from commiting immoral acts with out consequences both spiritually and physically.

You're making no sense yet again.

All I was saying is that considering w8lftr thinks it's immoral already he doesn't beleive the law supporting it is moral. Yet he still supports womens rights to do it. Which is hypocritical.

[OzmO]

His claim that it's immoral must mean there's a victim.

I believe he's claiming that it's immoral has to do with going against God.

All I was saying is that considering w8lftr thinks it's immoral already he doesn't beleive the law supporting it is moral. Yet he still supports womens rights to do it. Which is hypocritical.

I'm not trying to speak for him, however i believe he's saying that he is against the act, but another person or government doesn't have the right to tell that person what they can do with their body.  I could be wrong.

Now about me not making sense.

I think you might have got the thing mixed up.  I'll take the blame for that.

1st part.

Beleive fetus is a person at conception and abort = victim

Beleive fetus is a person after 1st trimester an abortion is before that = non victim

Libertarian view of non-victimised crimes = perhaps you can explain?

2nd part

People in general, NOT just you, have not evloved mentally and emotionally not to commmit immoral acts becuase of the simple fact that they are immoral.  Like perhaps yourself or you think of yourself.  I donno.

Therefore Laws or guidelines, Religous and Governmental, provide and system for the execution of consequences for immoral acts.

Kill a person = go to jail

Kill a person also = go to hell



More clear now?

[Oldschool Flip]

So if someone has the right to throw you into a concentrantion camp during war time "under the law" do you respect that too?

Wouldn't happen. Point is moot.

What if we went to war with some asian country and the president like in WW2 mandated that all Asians are to be locked up into concentrantion camps for fear of them being spies..Would you respect that?

Wouldn't happen. We are at war with Iraq...haven't locked them up.

This whole "I respect the law" is nonsense. The law doesn't determine morality. If it's immoral to prevent a woman from removing a part of her own body then whatever the law says doesn't make a difference.

That's what the CRIMINALS in PRISONS thought too.

[w8tlftr]

I believe he's claiming that it's immoral has to do with going against God.

I'm not trying to speak for him, however i believe he's saying that he is against the act, but another person or government doesn't have the right to tell that person what they can do with their body.  I could be wrong.

Now about me not making sense.

I think you might have got the thing mixed up.  I'll take the blame for that.

1st part.

Beleive fetus is a person at conception and abort = victim

Beleive fetus is a person after 1st trimester an abortion is before that = non victim

Libertarian view of non-victimised crimes = perhaps you can explain?

2nd part

People in general, NOT just you, have not evloved mentally and emotionally not to commmit immoral acts becuase of the simple fact that they are immoral.  Like perhaps yourself or you think of yourself.  I donno.

Therefore Laws or guidelines, Religous and Governmental, provide and system for the execution of consequences for immoral acts.

Kill a person = go to jail

Kill a person also = go to hell



More clear now?

You got it right, OzmO.
 
I would never participate in an abortion because of my beliefs. If the Supreme Court decides that it is a woman's right then it is regardless of my religious beliefs. This is what I mean when I say I have to respect the law. If the law were unconstitutional then we're talking something else. The examples Johnny was using would be a violation of my rights so I would not respect them.

And, Johnny, you haven't answered my question. Does it hurt?

[Colossus_500]

Only thing I would change with what W8tlftr is saying is that I will always continue to fight the battle against abortion (with few exceptions), because I believe our government is wrong to allow it in the first place. 

[w8tlftr]

Satan accepts Republicans and Democrats alike.  They're all going to see me at some point! Hahahahaha!!!

Welcome to getbig, Mr. Jack Abramoff.

[OzmO]

Satan has a special place in his heart for politicians.

So is that your thing hilltop?  You like to pretend to be the devil to screw with people?

Geez, grow up or at least come up with a more mature and intellegent way trying to brain f**k poeple.

[Johnny Apollo]

More clear now?

No.

You're going off on things I never even commented on.

Let me make it simpler for you.

w8lftr wrote.

If the law says that it's a woman's right to an abortion then fine it's her right. While I find it morally wrong, I respect her rights under the law and, more importantly, I'm not the one she has to ultimately answer to. Does that make me less of a Christian? I don't think so. I am still mandated to love and respect her and be there to help her up when she falls.

He's implying that he respects peoples rights under the law even if those rights are immoral.

Get it?

He's implying he respects the law even if it isn't moral. That's what he's saying.

[Johnny Apollo]

Wouldn't happen. Point is moot.

That's exactly what they thought prior to WWII when they locked japanese Americans up.

Read up on American History.

Wouldn't happen. We are at war with Iraq...haven't locked them up.

We aren't at "war" with Iraq. I already explained this to you.

That's what the CRIMINALS in PRISONS thought too.

So?

[OzmO]

You're going off on things I never even commented on

You never commented on this:

If you believe the fetus is a person upon conception then you have a victim and a tough issue.  Which it has been.

The law may not determine it but it does govern it and influence it's identity.  The law(s) is neccessary  becuase our society and humans, in general, haven't evolved as a whole to the point of understanding and abstaining from commiting immoral acts with out consequences both spiritually and physically.

When you wrote:

You're making no sense yet again.

You are dense sometimes.  Or just frustrated.

You need to get out more a socialize with people on non serious subjects.

go watch a si-fi movie and try your best not to point out all the scientific mis conceptions and inaccuratcies and just enjoy it.

Now back to this

So if someone has the right to throw you into a concentrantion camp during war time "under the law" do you respect that too?

Which is the post i commented on.  Which was a relative comment on this post:

If the law says that it's a woman's right to an abortion then fine it's her right. While I find it morally wrong, I respect her rights under the law and, more importantly, I'm not the one she has to ultimately answer to. Does that make me less of a Christian? I don't think so. I am still mandated to love and respect her and be there to help her up when she falls.

Here i'm  talking about morality and how the law determines or identifies it.

Don't worry Johnny i'm finding a way to draw pictures for you.

AND  don't think this is some attack on your  Self-esteem Intellingence

You are smart.

You know your numbers.

You are a scientist.

And Dog-gone-it!  People like you!

And if you post a picture of yourself you will gain some credibilitiy back.  Just some however.  You remember you still own those gyms supposidly and the 20+ racial comments too.

[w8tlftr]

He's implying that he respects peoples rights under the law even if those rights are immoral.

If the Supreme Court determines that abortion is a woman's protected right under the U.S. Constitution I have to respect the law regardless of whether or not I think it's immoral.

What's so hard to understand about that, Nazi-Bot?

The scenarios you outlined would be a violation of my constitutional rights so I would not respect them.

For person who claims to be smart you're awfully thick. 

[Johnny Apollo]

The scenarios you outlined would be a violation of my constitutional rights so I would not respect them.

They violated constitutional rights back in the 1940's but that didn't matter now did it?
Executive Order 9066 was in clear violation of the constitution but we still did it didn't we?


Secondly the constitution only means what the supreme court interprets it as. If the supreme court somehow interpreted that you COULD be locked up..Would you respect that?