1 of 4? New York judge finds Donald Trump liable for fraud

[OzmO]

Seriously?  How did they come up with the $370 million fine?  $370 in damages?

I mean, come on, find him 10 million or something.  Not 14% of his net worth.  Then maybe have him pay for 3rd party audits in the future.

This is not right.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/10/politics/trump-civil-trial-testimony/index.html

[Soul Crusher]

Seriously?  How did they come up with the $370 million fine?  $370 in damages?

I mean, come on, find him 10 million or something.  Not 14% of his net worth.  Then maybe have him pay for 3rd party audits in the future.

This is not right.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/10/politics/trump-civil-trial-testimony/index.html

No one was defrauded and no one was ever damaged.   This is more TDS 

[Dos Equis]

Pretty good take down of this farce. 

https://twitter.com/texan_maga/status/1745838653484441869

[Dos Equis]

Actual journalism from the mainstream media?  Wow.   

AP’s review of nearly 150 reported cases since New York’s “repeated fraud” statute was passed in 1956 showed that nearly every previous time a company was taken away, victims and losses were key factors. Customers had lost money or bought defective products or never received services ordered, leaving them cheated and angry.

Taking away Trump’s business empire would stand alone under New York fraud law
Within days, Donald Trump could have his sprawling real estate business empire ordered “dissolved” for repeated misrepresentations on financial statements to lenders, adding him to a short list of scam marketers, con artists and others who have been hi...
By BERNARD CONDON Associated Press
January 29, 2024
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/taking-trumps-business-empire-stand-new-york-fraud-106754158

[Primemuscle]

Actual journalism from the mainstream media?  Wow.   

AP’s review of nearly 150 reported cases since New York’s “repeated fraud” statute was passed in 1956 showed that nearly every previous time a company was taken away, victims and losses were key factors. Customers had lost money or bought defective products or never received services ordered, leaving them cheated and angry.

Taking away Trump’s business empire would stand alone under New York fraud law
Within days, Donald Trump could have his sprawling real estate business empire ordered “dissolved” for repeated misrepresentations on financial statements to lenders, adding him to a short list of scam marketers, con artists and others who have been hi...
By BERNARD CONDON Associated Press
January 29, 2024
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/wireStory/taking-trumps-business-empire-stand-new-york-fraud-106754158

This part of a similar article in AP News is interesting and surprising: 'In a footnote in a 94-page summary document filed earlier this month, Letitia James suggested a compromise decision for Engoron: Appoint an independent monitor to oversee Trump’s operations for five years, after which the court could decide whether to revoke his business certificates and possibly put him out of business.'

https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-business-law-courts-banks-lending-punishment-2ee9e509a28c24d0cda92da2f9a9b689

[Dos Equis]

This part of a similar article in AP News is interesting and surprising: 'In a footnote in a 94-page summary document filed earlier this month, Letitia James suggested a compromise decision for Engoron: Appoint an independent monitor to oversee Trump’s operations for five years, after which the court could decide whether to revoke his business certificates and possibly put him out of business.'

https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-business-law-courts-banks-lending-punishment-2ee9e509a28c24d0cda92da2f9a9b689

What's interesting and surprising about it?  It's still a fascist attempt to destroy the man when there are no victims. 

[Primemuscle]

What's interesting and surprising about it?  It's still a fascist attempt to destroy the man when there are no victims.

According to law he committed and is charged with civil fraud. Civil fraud is when the fraud is an intentional misrepresentation of facts. Criminal fraud is when theft is involved in the fraud. For example, lying on your income taxes is a type of civil fraud.
 
That there may have been no victims is irrelevant. That there were no victims is debatable. 

[Dos Equis]

According to law he committed and is charged with civil fraud. Civil fraud is when the fraud is an intentional misrepresentation of facts. Criminal fraud is when theft is involved in the fraud. For example, lying on your income taxes is a type of civil fraud.
 
That there may have been no victims is irrelevant. That there were no victims is debatable.

Fraud always has a victim.  Except in this case, so yes the fact there is no victim is relevant.  What is debatable about the victim here?  The banks loaned money and were repaid with interest.  They are not complaining.  They testified in support of Trump.  And these loans are from many years ago.  Who exactly is the victim? 

[Coach is Back!]

According to law he committed and is charged with civil fraud. Civil fraud is when the fraud is an intentional misrepresentation of facts. Criminal fraud is when theft is involved in the fraud. For example, lying on your income taxes is a type of civil fraud.
 
That there may have been no victims is irrelevant. That there were no victims is debatable.

Jesus Christ just shut up Prime. Either you really believe this is about the “law” in this case or you’re trolling.

[illuminati]

Jesus Christ just shut up Prime. Either you really believe this is about the “law” in this case or you’re trolling.

He's beyond help & wilfully being obtuse 99% of the Time.
Maybe how he gets his kicks playing being deliberately daft 

[Agnostic007]

According to law he committed and is charged with civil fraud. Civil fraud is when the fraud is an intentional misrepresentation of facts. Criminal fraud is when theft is involved in the fraud. For example, lying on your income taxes is a type of civil fraud.
 
That there may have been no victims is irrelevant. That there were no victims is debatable.

This concept flies over their head. They are limited to "No one was clubbed, can't be a crime". There are a plethora of laws that don't necessarily require a victim. Speeding is one.. "You can't give me a ticket for going 120 mph, there's no victim!" The thought process of these nuts is laughable

[illuminati]

This concept flies over their head. They are limited to "No one was clubbed, can't be a crime". There are a plethora of laws that don't necessarily require a victim. Speeding is one.. "You can't give me a ticket for going 120 mph, there's no victim!" The thought process of these nuts is laughable

Just because something is in law doesn't mean its right - Many laws are plain wrong & changed or over turned.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Fraud always has a victim.  Except in this case, so yes the fact there is no victim is relevant.  What is debatable about the victim here?  The banks loaned money and were repaid with interest.  They are not complaining.  They testified in support of Trump.  And these loans are from many years ago.  Who exactly is the victim?

So, if I go and steal money from people to buy lottery tickets, win the lottery and pay the people the money back before they notice I stole it then its perfectly fine?

That's the problem, while the banks got paid back with interest, he still placed an undue risk on the banks that they wouldn't be paid back and would have no way to fully recoup the losses....that's usually how it ends for the vast majority of similiar cases.   

[Dos Equis]

So, if I go and steal money from people to buy lottery tickets, win the lottery and pay the people the money back before they notice I stole it then its perfectly fine?

That's the problem, while the banks got paid back with interest, he still placed an undue risk on the banks that they wouldn't be paid back and would have no way to fully recoup the losses....that's usually how it ends for the vast majority of similiar cases.

Not a good analogy.  A more accurate one would be you borrow money from people to buy lottery tickets, allegedly lied to them about your financial condition, then repaid the loan with interest. 

Trump didn't place any undue risk on banks.  They have pretty intense underwriting for large loans.  They did their homework.  They loaned money.  They got repaid with interest.  No victim here.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Not a good analogy.  A more accurate one would be you borrow money from people to buy lottery tickets, allegedly lied to them about your financial condition, then repaid the loan with interest. 

Trump didn't place any undue risk on banks.  They have pretty intense underwriting for large loans.  They did their homework.  They loaned money.  They got repaid with interest.  No victim here.

There is still a point of lying..

[Dos Equis]

There is still a point of lying..

Assuming Trump lied about the value of his assets.  Businesses and individuals are constantly overvaluing their assets.  That isn't necessarily lying.  Especially when the banks go through their own extensive due diligence.  And the main point is there is no victim here.  Not the banks.  Not the government.  Not the taxpayers or any other consumer.   

What they have been doing to this man is just off the rails crazy.  And unamerican.

[Primemuscle]

Jesus Christ just shut up Prime. Either you really believe this is about the “law” in this case or you’re trolling.

FYI, your opinion is worthless. What I posted are the facts of law and not my opinion. Look up civil versus criminal fraud.

In May 2023, a jury found Trump liable for defamation and sexual abuse and awarded Carroll $5 million. Then Trump compounded the problem by defaming his accuser. This was a trial by jury comprised of seven men and two women. There were eighty prospective jurors to choose from. These were both civil trials.

Trump has also been indicted and charged with 91 felony counts across four criminal cases. Wait for 'the shit to hit the fan.'

[OzmO]

It does matter what "it's about" in the context of enforcing a law.

Our judicial system must uphold it.

We can bitch and whine as much as we want about the "law" and "no victims" etc. 

What's concerning is everything else I have been talking about.



 

[Dos Equis]

It does matter what "it's about" in the context of enforcing a law.

Our judicial system must uphold it.

We can bitch and whine as much as we want about the "law" and "no victims" etc. 

What's concerning is everything else I have been talking about.

The judicial system should not uphold laws that don't make any dang sense.

[Skeletor]

The judicial system should not uphold laws that don't make any dang sense.

Jury nullification helps with this, and that is why judges and prosecutors hate it and try to intimidate jurors against doing it.

[OzmO]

The judicial system should not uphold laws that don't make any dang sense.

I wonder how many other stupid laws there are?

[Dos Equis]

I don't see how this thing survives on appeal.  If it gets this far, I think the U.S. Supreme Court would find that it violates the 8th Amendment as an excessive fine.  Absolutely crazy to impose a fine like this when there was no actual fraud, no victim, and the alleged victims (the banks) testified in Trump's favor, saying they wanted to do business with him again.  Only in today's upside down world can something like this happen. 

Good, short discussion here:

Western Lensman
@WesternLensman
Shark Tank’s Kevin O’Leary is back again, this time scorching CNN’s Laura Coates:

🔥🔥“Excuse me, what fraud? This is no longer about Trump. I care about America."🔥🔥

The exchange gets heated quickly when Coates defends the judgment against Trump, and asks why companies would want to business with “people like yourself...if they know they can get away with fraud."

O’Leary: "Excuse me, what fraud? This is not about Trump anymore. This haggling has gone on for decades. That’s how it works….forget about Trump.

I care about America. I care about entrepreneurship. I care about democracy. And the fairness of the judicial system is now being criticized.

People in New York should wake up and asking themselves, why is this becoming so perverse. Why are we the focus of this injustice?

New York is slowly becoming the number one loser state in America."

This entire exchange is fire. Worth watching in its entirety.

https://twitter.com/WesternLensman/status/1759930006199849104

[Dos Equis]

Vivek Ramaswamy

@VivekGRamaswamy
·
Feb 22
Every American should watch this video of Letitia James, in her own words.

This is third-world stuff.

Our country is done if these are the kinds of people in charge of making prosecutorial decisions.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%22Letitia%20James%22&src=trend_click&vertical=trends

[Dos Equis]

Judge Engoron’s Inflation Of Trump’s ‘Ill-Gotten Gains’ Is The Real Financial Fraud
BY: JOSEPH LOBUE
Engoron overvalues Trump’s alleged savings and profits to such a preposterously false extent, it should be a crime itself.
FEBRUARY 23, 2024
https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fthefederalist.com%2F2024%2F02%2F23%2Fjudge-engorons-inflation-of-trumps-ill-gotten-gains-is-a-financial-crime-in-itself%2F

[Dos Equis]

Trump appeals ruling in massive NY civil fraud case
Trump was barred from operating his business and charged over $350 million
By Anders Hagstrom Fox News
Published February 26, 2024
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-appeals-ruling-350-million-ny-civil-fraud-case