Author Topic: I NEED WIDER LATS!! ANY SUGGESTIONS? (Read 3486 times)

nodeal · « **on:** August 08, 2006, 05:02:15 PM »

well?

? ive been working out my back hardcore for a long time but nothing seems to be working for my lats i do rows, pulldowns, pull ups, pull overs and everything in between but my lats suck. any suggestions?

btw i used to do deads but stopped because of an injury

nodeal · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2006, 05:26:33 PM »

been there...done that

Jr. Yates · « **Reply #2 on:** August 08, 2006, 05:56:01 PM »

Be patient for one thing...your lats aren't going to pop out after changing your routine for a few weeks. It takes a long time to improve lagging body parts. I had the same problem....just go into the gym on your back day, be creative and have fun....nice and slow reps, squeezing and stretching each rep. oh and lots of superset/drop sets. before you know it you'll be frustrated finding a shirt to wear cuz they won't fit no more.

pumpster · « **Reply #3 on:** August 08, 2006, 06:12:32 PM »

Concentrate on pulldowns/chins & pullovers while doing only a minimal amount of rows for a while. Vary the grip width AND the type of grip-neutral, palms in, out, wide grip, close grip, etc., with the idea of making chins, pulldowns and pullovers about the elbows as much as possible-that's important to get the mind-muscle connection with lats, which is a little more challenging. Use lifting straps.

If you have access to a pullover machine, use it they're usually better than DB pullovers.

Try supersets of any two of the following: chins, pulldowns and pullovers.

candidate2025 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 08, 2006, 06:28:41 PM »

yeah start out and finish your back day with 4 sets of pulldowns/chins. kepp good form and really feel the back.

othert than that its just geneticsa.

texasRUSH · « **Reply #5 on:** August 08, 2006, 08:18:33 PM »

use more weight...

that's the only way you'll get bigger muscles is to use bigger weight...common sense no? if you're not deadlifting i suggest you start...

texasRUSH · « **Reply #6 on:** August 08, 2006, 08:35:54 PM »

well what does his current routine look like? you can squeeze as hard as you want and use the best form ever...but with light weight you're only gonna gain so much. muscles grow to be able to handle and maintain a load...or else everyone would be hog'n the 10lb dumbbells

thank god for hundy's

nodeal · « **Reply #7 on:** August 08, 2006, 11:09:23 PM »

thank you all for the good advice i will post pics ofm yl ats when theyre huge

pumpster · « **Reply #8 on:** August 08, 2006, 11:36:21 PM »

Quote

you can squeeze as hard as you want and use the best form ever...but with light weight you're only gonna gain so much.

How do you know he's not already going heavy? There comes a point where weight increases aren't viable, in which case other means have to be tried to break through.

pumpster · « **Reply #9 on:** August 09, 2006, 08:35:53 AM »

Quote

In Arnold's Encyclopedia, I believe it says for wider lats, take a wider grip.

Arnold's advice is generally good but there are a few areas where he gets it wrong, in large part because he follows old-school rules like that one, and uses excessive volume training. Not that it didn't work obviously it did but as far as being the most effective means a few of his suggestions are iffy.

Arthur Jones also noticed that different, narrowed grips work the lats very well, sometimes better and with less shoulder joint stress. Try each version and decide for yourself which you feel more in the lats for both chins and pulldowns. For me close-grip triangle bar and medium grip work better. Also do some chins or pulldowns to behind the neck.

Varying from workout to workout would be a good way to keep the muscles off balance a little, could help with development. OR do the same thing each workout, IF it's working for you and you can feel it in the lats!

Most important thing is mind-muscle connection, which is trickier to achieve with lats-keeping the elbows in helps with this IMO.

Nathan · « **Reply #10 on:** August 09, 2006, 08:52:59 AM »

Narrow grip IS better for width.

JPM · « **Reply #11 on:** August 09, 2006, 10:37:06 AM »

Actually a narrow (4-8", or somewhere in the middle) curl grip affect's the lat's better. Also a narrow curl grip BB row, directly into the lower abs each rep, hit's the lats well. A lot of very big men use this version over regular BB rows, with very heavy weight. (come to think of it, I think that was the way Yates whacked out his bicep with that grip..of course over abuse of 'roids can weaken the ligament/tendons of any one...after a period 'roids tend to targets the inserts of the biceps, pec's, quads...not to mention the internal organs of the body). BB row's, with a wider grip (elbows almost in a straight line with the bar) and bar touching the mid chest area each rep, hits the posterior delts, mid back and lower traps. Another exercise that hit's tha general area is chin's touching the back of the neck.

The straight and bent arm pullovers are outstanding movements to bring that wide sweep of the lat's, starting from under the arm pits, into play. Can work up to some vey impressive poundage with this exercise. Of course, if you have the potentional and the body frame for extra wide lats. Check your parents out. If mom's has super lats than odd's are you will.

Could try a 6-8 week cycle of GVT (10X10's) if you have tried everything else. Just pick one lat exercise and workout 2 to 3 times a week on that one exercise.Bent arm Pullovers,would be my first choice, but it's your selection. The lat pulldowns, chins, BB rows should all use that close curl grip. The biceps are also strongly affected with that grip. Good Luck.

MidniteRambo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 09, 2006, 10:55:09 AM »

This may be just me, but lat development didn't come until I gained the strength to do 20 + pullups. At that point, I started mixing both weighted and weightless pull ups, wide grip. The first set is weightless with as many reps as I can do to exhaustion, wide grip, with a full hang at the bottom. The, when the area is saturated with blood, doing 3-5 sets of weighted, then finishing off with 3-5 sets of weightless to exhaustion. This is a once per week routine which has worked wonders in a short time frame.

natural al · « **Reply #13 on:** August 09, 2006, 11:28:27 AM »

here's a tip, it's from an old John Parillo book, I think I remember it right, if not someone will correct me.

When doing pulldowns concentrate on 2 aspects of the movement. 1st concentrate on keeping your shoulder girdle down, conciously try to pull your shoulders down during the movement and keep them there. Another thing you can try is to cock your elbows forward whild doing from pulldowns. Both of these tend to really stress the lats and remove any assistance other muscles might be providing. Lower the weight and do a couple of sets like that to get used to it.

You can also try parrellel grip pulldowns, I love these.

pumpster · « **Reply #14 on:** August 09, 2006, 12:22:54 PM »

Quote

1st concentrate on keeping your shoulder girdle down, conciously try to pull your shoulders down during the movement and keep them there. Another thing you can try is to cock your elbows forward whild doing from pulldowns. Both of these tend to really stress the lats and remove any assistance other muscles might be providing.

Medically known as scapular rotation-basically you want the elbows closer together/forward, doing as much of the pulling as possible, rather than having flexing the arms and using the bis instead. Big difference in the mind-muscle connection if done right.

One more to try. Great but tough:
-Assign yourself a goal of 20 or 30 reps-much more than you can do in one set. Then do a set and after reaching failure instead of stopping hang there and rest, then do more reps, then after reaching failure rest again, repeat for as long as possible until reaching or almost reaching the rep goal.

mesmorph78 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 09, 2006, 12:43:46 PM »

chin chin chins

theoperator · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2006, 09:34:20 PM »

ok i really need to improve my lats also so this week i did
deads 5 sets
pulldowns 8 sets
chins 3 sets
and next week i plan to add pullovers for 3 sets

im natural and i wonder if that is too many sets for one body part?
is this a good routine and will it make my lats bigger and stronger?

figgs · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2006, 10:05:22 PM »

Quote from: theoperator on August 12, 2006, 09:34:20 PM

ok i really need to improve my lats also so this week i did
deads 5 sets
pulldowns 8 sets
chins 3 sets
and next week i plan to add pullovers for 3 sets

im natural and i wonder if that is too many sets for one body part?
is this a good routine and will it make my lats bigger and stronger?

Far too many sets, my friend. Depending on both your level of experience and training intensity, I'd recommend 6-10 sets for your back. Follow the advice given in this routine but lower your volume! As long as you are intense there is no need for a back workout to be any longer than 30-40 minutes. And remember to include both rowing exercises and pull-up or pullover exercises into your every back routine.

pobrecito · « **Reply #18 on:** August 12, 2006, 10:39:45 PM »

Quote from: pumpster on August 08, 2006, 06:12:32 PM

Concentrate on pulldowns/chins/pullovers while doing only a minimal amount of rows for a while. Vary the grip width AND the type of grip-neutral, palms in, out, wide grip, close grip, etc., with the idea of making chins, pulldowns and pullovers about the elbows as much as possible-that's important to get the mind-muscle connection with lats, which is a little more challenging. USe lifting straps. If you have access to a pullover machine, use it they're usually better than DB pullovers.

Try supersets of any two of the following: chins, pulldowns and pullovers.

pumpster, are pullover machines like the one Dorian uses in Blood and Guts fairly common? I would love to use one, but have never seen one! DB pullovers just feel akward to me, and if your form isn't spot on you just end up working the triceps more than your lats $:-\$

pumpster · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2006, 04:34:19 AM »

Quote

are pullover machines like the one Dorian uses in Blood and Guts fairly common? I would love to use one, but have never seen one! DB pullovers just feel akward to me, and if your form isn't spot on you just end up working the triceps more than your lats

This is absolutely true about hitting the tris more. Those machines are common in some gyms. Here are a couple of options for gyms without them that should help:

-Decline pullovers using a hammer-grip bar. The decline will put more consistent tension on the lats. That type of bar can also help.

-Use abs straps used for doing hanging leg raises but instead do pullover-motions, pulling yourself up. This takes the secondary muscles out of the motion and is very similar to using a machine.

-Lying or standing pulley pullovers.

JPM · « **Reply #20 on:** August 13, 2006, 10:09:01 AM »

You may get moderate results if your looking for those Yate's type pullover machines in most spa/fitness centers. Not that common anymore but most of the serious, hardcore gym's should have one.

Any type of BB/DB pullover will involve the triceps by just the nature of the muscle action recuited. The full stretch (over/behind the head) and the muscle action required to restart the BB/DB back up (to about forehead range), from that full stretch position, affect the triceps strongly. A Hammer grip ( tricep bar) bar might become much more awkward than even a straight bar for the pullover, for some people. Decline positions should not lessen the affect on the triceps , over a regular flat bench. DB's are a very rewarding way to do pullovers because of their more natural grip (hammer grip) and allowing the wrist and elbows/joints to follow the correct muscle curve of the pullover.

There are straps that fit around the elbow, that take the weaker link of the arms out a pulling exercise, much as the Yates pullover style machines do. They are mostly used for sitting cable pulls for lats. Can use much more weight with these straps. Some can be adapted to overhead chinning or lat pulls.

All in all, a pullover type machine, with the resistence on the elbows, can prove to be a much better lat/back developer for most guy's. Nautilus (three cam gears), in my view, are superior to most. (any good designed pullover machine will take the triceps out of the exercise, to a lesser degree) A few gym's may have them. But I believe that the present company is into making medical rehab equipment. Good Luck.

theoperator · « **Reply #21 on:** August 15, 2006, 02:10:57 PM »

Quote from: figgs on August 12, 2006, 10:05:22 PM

Far too many sets, my friend. Depending on both your level of experience and training intensity, I'd recommend 6-10 sets for your back. Follow the advice given in this routine but lower your volume! As long as you are intense there is no need for a back workout to be any longer than 30-40 minutes. And remember to include both rowing exercises and pull-up or pullover exercises into your every back routine.

ok i thought maybe i could get away with all those sets because i changed my gripp every set.
alright then hows this back workout
deads 4 sets
pulldowns 4 sets
dumbell rows 3 sets

?

Overload · « **Reply #22 on:** August 15, 2006, 02:16:57 PM »

Quote from: theoperator on August 15, 2006, 02:10:57 PM

ok i thought maybe i could get away with all those sets because i changed my gripp every set.
alright then hows this back workout
deads 4 sets
pulldowns 4 sets
dumbell rows 3 sets
?

throw in some machine pullovers at the end and you have my exact workout plan...i make good gains with it...3-4 sets for each exercise is more than enough if you are training with proper intensity and form.

pumpster · « **Reply #23 on:** August 15, 2006, 05:23:01 PM »

Quote

deads 4 sets
pulldowns 4 sets
dumbell rows 3 sets

3-4 sets per exercise:
-chins or pulldowns
-rows
-pullovers

Deads for lower back

You're looking at 12 or more sets per workout..OR to try doing less sets, leave out one of the top 3 exercises each workout and rotate it in the next workout while removing one of the others.