Author Topic: Darwin's Black Box  (Read 22896 times)

Dos Equis

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Darwin's Black Box
« on: August 19, 2006, 10:56:05 PM »
I just finished Michael Behe's "Darwin's Black Box:  The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution."  Sort of.  He gave both layman and scientific explanations of various topics and gave the reader permission to skip the detailed and footnoted scientific information if you don't have a science background.  So . . . . I stuck with the "easy" to understand stuff. 

Behe is a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University.  He's not a Christian.  Or at least he wasn't when he wrote the book. 

The two main things I took away from this book are:

1.  There are a lot of scientists who have problems with Darwin's theory of evolution.  I was surprised, because many people attempt to portray anyone who believes in intelligent design, or simply don't believe in Darwin's theory, to be religious nuts with no science background.  That's simply not true.  Among the people who have concerns about and/or have questioned Darwinism are English biologists Mae-Wan Ho and Peter Saunders, University of Georgia geneticist John McDonald, Australian evolutionary geneticist George Miklos, Jerry Coyne of the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago, University of California geneticist John Endler, and many others.   

2.  Evolutionists cannot scientifically explain the supposed gradual evolution of the plethora of irreducibly complex systems in the human body.  An irreducibly complex system is "a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."  I like his mouse trap example, which helped me understand this.  A mouse trap is irreducibly complex, because you must have all the parts working at the same time:  platform, holding bar, catch, spring, and hammer.  If any one part is missing, the trap doesn't work. 

He argues that there are a number of irreducibly complex biological systems in our bodies, including the eye, cilium, "bacterial flagellum," and blood clotting, to name a few.  Because all of the parts of these systems are dependent on each other, they could not have evolved, step by step.  Makes sense to me. 

He's critical of much of the scientific community for failing to spend enough time studying and explaining how Darwinism can account for irreducibly complex systems.

His conclusion is that irreducibly complex systems essentially have to be designed.  They cannot evolve by some gradual process or an accident.  He doesn't advocate the God theory or creationism, but says someone had to design these irreducibly complex systems.  I agree.   

I think this book should be required reading in sciences classes, regardless of whether the class focuses on Darwinism or intelligent design. 

NeoSeminole

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 02:40:53 PM »
The argument from irreducible complexity is basically a rehash of the watchmaker argument. Michael Behe argues that irreducibly complex systems cannot be produced by evolution. However, there are several problems with his assertion.

How do we decide when to apply irreducible complexity? Organisms don't come with parts, functions, or systems labeled. These are terms we use for convenience. For example, the legs might be called a walking system. But what are the parts? If we divide a leg into 3 major parts, then removal of any part results in loss of function. Thus legs are irreducibly complex. On the other hand, if we count each bone as a part instead of several parts, then a whole toe may be removed and we still have a functional walking system.

Another problem is Behe's misunderstanding of evolutionary processes. There are 4 possible ways for "irreducible complexity" to evolve.

- previously using more parts than necessary for the function
- the parts themselves evolve
- deployment of parts evolves
- new parts are created and may then evolve

In the past, a function may have been done with more parts than necessary. The "extra" part(s) may have been lost over time leaving an irreducibly complex system, or the parts may have co-adapted to perform even better at the expense of not being able to function without each other. The parts themselves may have evolved. Another important fact is that DNA evolves. Each protein that your body makes is coded in your DNA and is subject to mutation and evolution. This is referred to this as deployment of parts. When a protein is deployed out of its usual context, it may be co-opted for a different function. Lastly, brand new parts may have been created and evolved.

Behe also commits a logical fallacy by using "gap theology" to support intelligent design. He attempts to justify a particular view by discrediting another while offering no support for his own. This is akin to saying a person is guilty b/c he cannot be proven innocent beyond reasonable doubt although no shred of evidence implicates him in the crime. In Behe's case, he says "God must have done it."

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 03:37:29 PM »
1.  There are a lot of scientists who have problems with Darwin's theory of evolution.  I was surprised, because many people attempt to portray anyone who believes in intelligent design, or simply don't believe in Darwin's theory, to be religious nuts with no science background.  That's simply not true.  Among the people who have concerns about and/or have questioned Darwinism are English biologists Mae-Wan Ho and Peter Saunders, University of Georgia geneticist John McDonald, Australian evolutionary geneticist George Miklos, Jerry Coyne of the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago, University of California geneticist John Endler, and many others.
   

Mcdonald doesn't doubt Evolution.
http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html

George Miklos is an apologetic Christian.

Jerry Coyne supports evolution 100% and is highly critical of Intelligent Design.
http://www.tnr.com/user/nregi.mhtml?i=20050822&s=coyne082205

John Endler also supports evolution 100% and is against intelligent design.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IVB1bInthelab.shtml
http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/eemb/faculty/endler/


Wow! Very convincing!

If you want to play "Scientists who support evolution" then I'd win.


I can name over 100 prominent scientists who support evolution...








...All named Steve!




2.  Evolutionists cannot scientifically explain the supposed gradual evolution of the plethora of irreducibly complex systems in the human body.  An irreducibly complex system is "a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."  I like his mouse trap example, which helped me understand this.  A mouse trap is irreducibly complex, because you must have all the parts working at the same time:  platform, holding bar, catch, spring, and hammer.  If any one part is missing, the trap doesn't work.

The human body isn't Irreducibly complex. By your own definition if we remove for instance my leg then since i'm irreducibly complex, I shouldn't be able to even function? That's utter nonsense. The fact is most of my bodyparts can be removed and I could still survive and function.  Biologists can explain the gradual evolution of just about any organ of the human body.(Including the eye).


He argues that there are a number of irreducibly complex biological systems in our bodies, including the eye, cilium, "bacterial flagellum," and blood clotting, to name a few.  Because all of the parts of these systems are dependent on each other, they could not have evolved, step by step.  Makes sense to me. 

Let's use the Eye for an example. If the human eye were indeed "irreducibly complex" then any changes in it's function or any removal of anything within it would render it 100% useless. This isn't the case obviously. Many people have myopia(near-sightedness) where they must wear glasses. Many others have other eye disorders where their eyes are missing parts or have changed parts. They however can still see.


He's critical of much of the scientific community for failing to spend enough time studying and explaining how Darwinism can account for irreducibly complex systems.

Darwin explained the evolution of the eye over 120 years ago.


His conclusion is that irreducibly complex systems essentially have to be designed.  They cannot evolve by some gradual process or an accident.  He doesn't advocate the God theory or creationism, but says someone had to design these irreducibly complex systems.  I agree.
 

2 points.

  • There are no irreducibly complex systems in the human body.
  • Even if there was a system in which if it was changed it could no longer serve it's purpose, It could easily serve another purpose. An example exists in birds. Birds feathers serve the purpose of flight. However before they evolved for flight the feathers evolved for the purpose of keeping them warm. In this case a seemingly irreducibly complex system easily serves a purpose when it isn't the same as it is now.



I think this book should be required reading in sciences classes, regardless of whether the class focuses on Darwinism or intelligent design.
   


His book is "pseudo science" and can easily be refuted as I have demonstrated. No such book belongs in any science class.

Dos Equis

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 08:13:19 PM »
Dude your opinion is worth about as much as mine:  nothing.  You're obvioulsy not a scientist, I doubt you have a science background, and I doubt you work in any kind of science field.  I'll take Behe's research over your internet links any day of the week and twice on Sunday. 

The one thing I'll say in response to you and your alter ego double posts is that Behe didn't say the human body is irreducibly complex.  He said certain systems within the body at the cellular level are irreducibly complex.  Those are the facts. 

I've already left the book at my office, but I'll post some of the comments from the people I identified later (maybe tomorrow if I have time).     

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 08:58:47 PM »
Dude your opinion is worth about as much as mine:  nothing.

It's not opinion when I provide proof.


You're obvioulsy not a scientist, I doubt you have a science background, and I doubt you work in any kind of science field.  I'll take Behe's research over your internet links any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Ad hominem fallacy.

My background is irrelevant. You're attacking me because you can't attack my argument.


The one thing I'll say in response to you and your alter ego double posts is that Behe didn't say the human body is irreducibly complex.  He said certain systems within the body at the cellular level are irreducibly complex.  Those are the facts.

None of the organs you listed are irreducibly complex. Including the eye as I explained. 

I've already left the book at my office, but I'll post some of the comments from the people I identified later (maybe tomorrow if I have time).     

I don't respond to quote mining.

The websites I posted are the PERSONAL WEBSITES of the people you named. Proof they support evolution. Not that it matters in the first place.

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2006, 09:02:22 PM »
Don't forget to respond NeoSeminole.

NeoSeminole

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2006, 09:14:19 PM »
Dude your opinion is worth about as much as mine:  nothing.  You're obvioulsy not a scientist, I doubt you have a science background, and I doubt you work in any kind of science field.  I'll take Behe's research over your internet links any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Riiiiight. So if you say the earth is flat, then I guess your opinion is as valid as mine b/c I'm not an astronomer? ::)

Quote
The one thing I'll say in response to you and your alter ego double posts is that Behe didn't say the human body is irreducibly complex.  He said certain systems within the body at the cellular level are irreducibly complex.  Those are the facts.

How do you decide when to use the term irreducible complexity? I already showed you how a leg can be considered both IC and non-IC. Let's just say for argument's sake that certain systems within the body are irreducibly complex. There are several ways they may have evolved. Behe's argument that irreducibly complex systems cannot be produced by evolution stems for a misunderstanding of the evolutionary process.

Quote
I've already left the book at my office, but I'll post some of the comments from the people I identified later (maybe tomorrow if I have time).

I look forward to it.

OzmO

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2006, 09:25:07 PM »
Wow what timing.  couldn't have timed it better myself....unless Neo is Johnny also which was already suggested, or Bast.

Johnny,  you need to get a life. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2006, 10:03:14 PM »
Tyrone's background is highly relevent.  Behe is a scientist.  Why should I give any credence whatsoever to someone with an unknown background who likely hasn't even read Darwin's Black Box? 

So what's your background "Tyrone"? 

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2006, 10:07:35 PM »
Tyrone's background is highly relevent.  Behe is a scientist.  Why should I give any credence whatsoever to someone with an unknown background who likely hasn't even read Darwin's Black Box? 

So what's your background "Tyrone"? 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem

Quote
An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself.

Dos Equis

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2006, 11:23:28 PM »


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem
 

Also from your favorite web site:

"Credibility is the believability of a statement, action, or source, and the ability of the observer to believe that statement."

If you're not a scientist, have no science background, and do not work in a science-related field then you have ZERO credibility.  I think that makes you a pseudo-scientist. 
 

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2006, 12:45:45 AM »
Also from your favorite web site:

"Credibility is the believability of a statement, action, or source, and the ability of the observer to believe that statement."

If you're not a scientist, have no science background, and do not work in a science-related field then you have ZERO credibility.  I think that makes you a pseudo-scientist. 
 


This isn't a courtroom. This is a scientific debate. My background is irrelevent as is my credibility. The only thing that is relevent is the proof I provide. Nothing I am saying relies on my credibility. Just on the proof I provide.


Example-If I were to say I saw a monkey running down the street. If I had absolutely no evidence just my word to provide. Then that is a case where my personal history or credibility would be required.

However if I say I saw a monkey running down the street and I also provided proof of the monkey. My credibility would be completly irrelevant because I had proof.


None of the claims I am making are personal claims. They are general scientific claims for which there is mountains of evidence. This means that it doesn't matter if I am a lifetime liar or a 8 year old with a 3rd grade education. It doesn't matter as long as I provide proof.

That means attacking my argument based on my "credibility" or "educational history" is definitly an ad hominem logical fallacy.

NeoSeminole

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2006, 12:49:45 AM »
"Credibility is the believability of a statement, action, or source, and the ability of the observer to believe that statement."

If you're not a scientist, have no science background, and do not work in a science-related field then you have ZERO credibility.  I think that makes you a pseudo-scientist.

If you want to debate credibility, these men have far more credentials than Michael Behe. Guess what? They all say he is wrong too. ;)

Peter Atkins, Chemistry Professor at Oxford University

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_atkins/behe.html

Keith Robinson, Geneticist and Molecular Biologist at Harvard University

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/review.html

Robert Dorit, Evolutionary Biologist at Yale University

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/22794?fulltext=true

Richard Dawkins, Evolution Professor at Oxford University

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Catalano/box/behe.shtml

Dos Equis

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2006, 12:56:10 AM »

This isn't a courtroom. This is a scientific debate. My background is irrelevent as is my credibility. The only thing that is relevent is the proof I provide. Nothing I am saying relies on my credibility. Just on the proof I provide.


Example-If I were to say I saw a monkey running down the street. If I had absolutely no evidence just my word to provide. Then that is a case where my personal history or credibility would be required.

However if I say I saw a monkey running down the street and I also provided a real picture of the monkey with myself standing next to it. That would be proof I indeed saw the monkey. My credibility would be completly irrelevant because I had proof.

None of the claims I am making are personal claims. They are general scientific claims for which there is mountains of evidence. This means that it doesn't matter if I am a lifetime liar or a 8 year old with a 3rd grade education. It doesn't matter as long as I provide proof.


That means attacking my argument based on my "credibility" or "educational history" is definitly an ad hominem logical fallacy.


It's not a scientific debate because I'm not a scientist and I don't have a science background.  You're not a scientist and don't have a science background (or do you?).  All I typically do is try and understand things from a layman's perspective.  That's why I read a book written by a scientist.  That's why the mousetrap example makes sense to a non-scientist like me.    

You, on the other hand, are trying to portray yourself as some kind of scientist when you're clearly not.  You are asking to people to trust "evidence" that you provide.  You're asking people to take your word over the word of a scientist.  I don't trust someone, or the alleged "evidence" they provide in the form of "Wikipedia" and other internet links, if they have no credibility.  I talk to my children all the time about credibility.  If you don't have it, then no one will believe you, even when you're telling the truth.      

You have zero credibility.  

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2006, 01:02:11 AM »
Don't forget Ernst Mayr, Kenneth R. Miller, Steve Jones, Alfred Russel Wallace, John Maynard Smith, Stephen Jay Gould, and Niles Eldredge, August Weismann, George C. Williams,Allan Wilson, Edward Osborne Wilson, Sewall Wright, Carl Woese and Robert Trivers just to name a few.

All of whom have far more credentials than Behe.

Behe's credentials include professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania(Ivy league huh?)...And that's it!

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2006, 01:09:31 AM »
It's not a scientific debate because I'm not a scientist and I don't have a science background.  You're not a scientist and don't have a science background (or do you?).  All I typically do is try and understand things from a layman's perspective.  That's why I read a book written by a scientist.  That's why the mousetrap example makes sense to a non-scientist like me.


We are debating a scientific topic therefor it is a scientific debate. A stupid debate but a debate none the less. It doesn't matter who has or doesn't have a scientific background. The fact we are discussing science makes it a debate concerning science. Period.

You didn't read a book by a scientist. You read a book by a pseudo-scientist kook. Him having a degree in biochemistry doesn't make him a "scientist". If Behe was a real scientist then he would of published his work in peer reviewed journals, Not in a book aimed at the general public.

The mousetrap example makes sense to you? Well guess what? It was refuted by one of those people you posted who you claimed "opposed evolution". Haha!


You, on the other hand, are trying to portray yourself as some kind of scientist when you're clearly not.  You are asking to people to trust "evidence" that you provide.  You're asking people to take your word over the word of a scientist.  I don't trust someone, or the alleged "evidence" they provide in the form of "Wikipedia" and other internet links, if they have no credibility.  I talk to my children all the time about credibility.  If you don't have it, then no one will believe you, even when you're telling the truth.      

Didn't I just explain this to you? When I provide proof then my credibility makes no difference. Period. The only reason you're bringing it up is because you don't have an argument of your own.


If you're going to go on who has the most credibility then Behe would fall in dead last in scientific circles.

If you're going to trust who has the most "credibility" then you would need to read the books from the people I posted. All of whom have credentials that dwarf Behe's.







BTW I feel bad for your kids. You're teaching them utter nonsense. Logical fallacies.

OzmO

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 07:40:10 AM »



When I provide proof then my credibility makes no difference.



If i remember correctly when your credibility was an issue you got called out by a reAL SCIENTIST who had no trouble posting his credentials with a way to verify them, and then he proved you wrong and shortly afterwards you ran away and faked your death. 


Here it is:
Johnny Apollo doesn't have a PHD in evolutionary biology or an MS in molecular Genetics... he just thinks he does.

His posts belie a very blinkered dogmatic attitude redolent with wrote learning and misunderstandings.



Here's a list of things he didn't/doesn't know that any geneticist would know:

-humans and chimps may be able to interbreed, the genetic gap is close enough the only hurdle to such a hybridization are the complictions of antibody reaction and chromosomal splitting.

-he thinks locals on Flores island may have identified the cave in which the Hobbit skeleton was found by seeing some of the 12,000 year old Hobbit skeletons in the cave. Not through interaction with the Hobbit man. The 12,000 year old Hobbit fossils were found more than 30 feet underground.

-he claims there is no evidence of human/neanderthal interbreeding. There is. It's called the Lapedo child, the skeleton of a human/neanderthal hybrid child dating only 28,500 (originaly dated 24,000) years old. This is a hot topic among geneticists, anthropologists and archaeologists... Johnny's never heard of it.

-Johnny reckons Bigfoot can't exist because there would have to be dozens of them and there simply isn't enough food to support them. Jane Goodall (chimp lady) disagrees... he  dismisses her opinion.
The number is probably closer to 50,000... but the food part? That's so moronic as to beggar belief... not enough food to support a couple dozen apemen in North America... weren't there 50,000,000 buffalo there just 200 years ago? Aren't there a couple dozen million domesticated cattle there right now? Aren't there 400,000,000 people living in North America right now? Aren't there a couple of hundred thousand bears in the same woods?

This quote speaks for itself:
"That means if we have a viable population of "bigfoot" living in the american wilderness..We'd have to have DOZENS of them. The amount of food just isn't there. Pure and simple."

...glad to see I'm not the only person who thinks this guy is a blowhard. His reasoning is faulty, his attitude is pompous and aggressive and he seems to constantly be quoting outdated theories as if they were gospel.... stating theories as fact is a sure sign you don't understand how the evidence is collected and evaluated.

By the by, I have an honours degree in Experimental Physics from Trinity College Dublin. I haven't had it conferred yet (did my finals about thre years ago). Anyone wanting to corroborate this can contact TCD at their website
www.tc.ie
My name is Luke David Molloy, my student number was 97560677 ...simply contact the Student Records Office, say your considering hiring me but you want to check my degree. Let them know that the degree hasn't been conferred yet and that's I gave you the student number so you could check it. Shouldn't be a problem... they'll give you my exam results.

The Luke

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=57707.msg1074085#msg1074085

Tyronny you were pretty much called a sad wanna be.  Care to comment? 

Or will you sit here and deny away or try and deflect the issue by insulting me?

Or just maintain you are not Johnny.  HHAHAHAHA

Colossus_500

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2006, 08:01:14 AM »
sTella's gonna kill me for this, but i couldn't resist.  johnny, tyrone....


Butterbean

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2006, 01:28:50 PM »
   

Mcdonald doesn't doubt Evolution.
http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html

George Miklos is an apologetic Christian.

Jerry Coyne supports evolution 100% and is highly critical of Intelligent Design.
http://www.tnr.com/user/nregi.mhtml?i=20050822&s=coyne082205

John Endler also supports evolution 100% and is against intelligent design.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IVB1bInthelab.shtml
http://www.lifesci.ucsb.edu/eemb/faculty/endler/


Wow! Very convincing!

If you want to play "Scientists who support evolution" then I'd win.


I can name over 100 prominent scientists who support evolution...








...All named Steve!



R

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2006, 03:32:06 PM »
Is this your form of rebuttal? Accuse me of being someone i'm not just so you don't have to respond to my arguments?



 ::)

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2006, 03:37:16 PM »
If i remember correctly when your credibility was an issue you got called out by a reAL SCIENTIST who had no trouble posting his credentials with a way to verify them, and then he proved you wrong and shortly afterwards you ran away and faked your death. 


Here it is:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=57707.msg1074085#msg1074085

Tyronny you were pretty much called a sad wanna be.  Care to comment? 

Or will you sit here and deny away or try and deflect the issue by insulting me?

Or just maintain you are not Johnny.  HHAHAHAHA


I don't know who this "Johnny" fellow is..But judging by that post you pasted...It was the Luke David Molloy who was refuted.


Let me guess....You believe in Bigfoot?

OzmO

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2006, 03:37:16 PM »
Get off it dude.

Just be a man and stop playing games.

I enjoy your point of view and feeble atempts at jamming them down people's throats.

No need to keep up the charade Johnny.


Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2006, 03:40:00 PM »
It really doesn't matter if you believe my name is "Johnny" or if you believe my name is Bob Dole.



Respond to my posts and stop evading them with these red herrings.

OzmO

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2006, 03:41:58 PM »
It really doesn't matter if you believe my name is "Johnny" or if you believe my name is Bob Dole.



Respond to my posts and stop evading them with these red herrings.

I actually have a ton of stuff  to respond regarding your posts! 

But until you come clean, forget it. 

Stop the charade, You are in Germany now....  relax. 

Tyrone Power

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Re: Darwin's Black Box
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2006, 03:46:44 PM »
I actually have a ton of stuff  to respond regarding your posts! 

But until you come clean, forget it. 

Stop the charade, You are in Germany now....  relax. 


Then you're wasting my time.




BTW I don't live in Germany. Never even been there.