Incomplete score sheets at Santa Susana show

[Milos_Sarcev]

I would like to inform everyone that score sheets from Santa Susana IFBB PRO Invitational ARE NOT correct!

As we THE ATHLETES have requested numerous times to get COMPLETE SCORE SHEETS FROM EACH AND EVERY JUDGE - now is possibly a perfect time to see what is really happenning in the IFBB pro shows when judging is concerned.

I would ask the IFBB to post INDIVIDUAL JUDGING SCORES of every judge and in every round  - to prove the point that mistake occurred in counting the points.

Also we need to observe and analyze the judges and the way they are judging...After all if they are trained professionals hired to do the job they should have no problem putting the name on score sheets and stand by those decisions.

In lite of judging debacle at the last years Olympia and numerous other recent shows I would like to point out to mistakes that could be avoided IF we all start being responsible and liable for our actions.

[mikediesel]

Is this something that could be brought up during the athletes meeting that Mr. Bob Chick holding during the Olympia weekend?

[LASTREP72]

Does the IFBB hire judges from whatever location the show will be held at - for example, were the santa susanna judges all spanish?

[Neptuno]

Judges were from all Europe, only 1 was spanish.

I prefer europeans judges that USA judges,  thousand times.

[kyomu]

I would like to inform everyone that score sheets from Santa Susana IFBB PRO Invitational ARE NOT correct!

As we THE ATHLETES have requested numerous times to get COMPLETE SCORE SHEETS FROM EACH AND EVERY JUDGE - now is possibly a perfect time to see what is really happenning in the IFBB pro shows when judging is concerned.

I would ask the IFBB to post INDIVIDUAL JUDGING SCORES of every judge and in every round  - to prove the point that mistake occurred in counting the points.

Also we need to observe and analyze the judges and the way they are judging...After all if they are trained professionals hired to do the job they should have no problem putting the name on score sheets and stand by those decisions.

In lite of judging debacle at the last years Olympia and numerous other recent shows I would like to point out to mistakes that could be avoided IF we all start being responsible and liable for our actions.

Hey Milos I am the Japanese guy who talked to you when Hide had conversation with me there .
And you told me that DEnnis should have won.
Sorry Milos. You are the only person who had him first. I have talked to many people there and all of them had Wolf third.
In case, you neglect size and con condition dont you. Dennis do have beatiful proportion and good condition. To be winner,I think he should be IMPRESSIVE. And Wolf was good but not impressive.
Markus and Paco are impressive.
Dont persist in waist line only. BBing is all about muscle!

[kyomu]

Judges were from all Europe, only 1 was spanish.

I prefer europeans judges that USA judges,  thousand times.

Estoy completamente acuerdo contigo. Milos esta mosqueado de la perdida de su alumno(Dennis Wolf).

[phreak]

Estoy completamente acuerdo contigo. Milos esta mosqueado de la perdida de su alumno(Dennis Wolf).

That might be it. Wolf has a great future, but right now he just misses one spectacular feature that would make him stand out. Although some might argue that his taper/waist are that feature.

[Milos_Sarcev]

Hey Milos I am the Japanese guy who talked to you when Hide had conversation with me there .
And you told me that DEnnis should have won.
Sorry Milos. You are the only person who had him first. I have talked to many people there and all of them had Wolf third.
In case, you neglect size and con condition dont you. Dennis do have beatiful proportion and good condition. To be winner,I think he should be IMPRESSIVE. And Wolf was good but not impressive.
Markus and Paco are impressive.
Dont persist in waist line only. BBing is all about muscle!

I appreciate your comments...I really do.
Now, when people ask me about my opinion...I say exactly that - MY OPINION.

For me Dennis should have won hands down and Silvio could have been good choice for second...
Markus third ...Paco forth...(second to forth could be in other order as well


Jaroslav Horvat - Thomas Benagli - Eddie Abbew - Hideta Yamagishi - Sergey Chelestov - Marcos Cahon should have be considered for 5 to 10th...

And when I say that I consider EVERYTHING that goes into consideration for judging of the physiques...
Due to the lack of time - as I had trip from hell and arrived 2 AM this morning I would not elaborate on REASONS of how and why I would place these guys...but as soon as I can I certainly would.

Waist line is NOT the only thing I take in consideration....and when you say IMPRESSIVNESS - I was greatly impressed with Paco's conditioning and size - NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT...But equally not impressed with his structure, V-taper, aesthetics, posing display...any many other things.

Paco is a WONDERFUL GUY - one of the best professionals I have seen in the last decades with great human qualities...but this is not popularity contest...

[the shadow]

I would like to inform everyone that score sheets from Santa Susana IFBB PRO Invitational ARE NOT correct!

As we THE ATHLETES have requested numerous times to get COMPLETE SCORE SHEETS FROM EACH AND EVERY JUDGE - now is possibly a perfect time to see what is really happenning in the IFBB pro shows when judging is concerned.

I would ask the IFBB to post INDIVIDUAL JUDGING SCORES of every judge and in every round  - to prove the point that mistake occurred in counting the points.

Also we need to observe and analyze the judges and the way they are judging...After all if they are trained professionals hired to do the job they should have no problem putting the name on score sheets and stand by those decisions.

In lite of judging debacle at the last years Olympia and numerous other recent shows I would like to point out to mistakes that could be avoided IF we all start being responsible and liable for our actions.

this is bullshit man..what ever the scoresheets look like the placings of this show were right.no judge is that dumb that he miss calculated the scores and by mistake they awarded the wrong winner..plzzz

[rocket]

Milos, a peripheral point but bold is probably better than capitals.  It feels as if you're shouting in my mind

(And yes, Lee Priest is difficult to read)

[rocket]

this is bullshit man..what ever the scoresheets look like the placings of this show were right.no judge is that dumb that he miss calculated the scores and by mistake they awarded the wrong winner..plzzz

I believe you are incorrect on that, I seem to recall that happening in a pro show not that long ago  (I have no recollection of the actual example).

(Not on the winner)

[kyomu]

I appreciate your comments...I really do.
Now, when people ask me about my opinion...I say exactly that - MY OPINION.

For me Dennis should have won hands down and Silvio could have been good choice for second...
Markus third ...Paco forth...(second to forth could be in other order as well


Jaroslav Horvat - Thomas Benagli - Eddie Abbew - Hideta Yamagishi - Sergey Chelestov - Marcos Cahon should have be considered for 5 to 10th...

And when I say that I consider EVERYTHING that goes into consideration for judging of the physiques...
Due to the lack of time - as I had trip from hell and arrived 2 AM this morning I would not elaborate on REASONS of how and why I would place these guys...but as soon as I can I certainly would.

Waist line is NOT the only thing I take in consideration....and when you say IMPRESSIVNESS - I was greatly impressed with Paco's conditioning and size - NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT...But equally not impressed with his structure, V-taper, aesthetics, posing display...any many other things.

Paco is a WONDERFUL GUY - one of the best professionals I have seen in the last decades with great human qualities...but this is not popularity contest...

Dont get me wrong. I know Paco personaly and he is my neighbor. But,I was totaly far from that truth. I had problem with choosing Paco or Markus. But,Dennis...never.
I personaly liked Denniss phisic and I wish I could have body like him more than Paco and Rhul. But,judging BBing competition is another story.
Then I tell you the reason why Paco is ahead of Dennis this is clear.

Mass....Paco
Cuts....Paco
Shape.....Wolf.

Paco 2 and Wolf 1.

Its pure math.

As a Japanese I wish Hide well in the competion. But,5th is way exagerated.His legs are great. But,his back is too narrow and didnt have line that Italian had(Also mass). Silvio has same problem. VERY NARROW especialy when he hit doble bi.

[kyomu]

And also. How come you get Chacon within 10th place!?
He really had terrible gut.And in addition he had a strange thing in his gut and people are calling it alien!
Now I dont understand you more.

[Adam Empire]

Dont get me wrong. I know Paco personaly and he is my neighbor. But,I was totaly far from that truth. I had problem with choosing Paco or Markus. But,Dennis...never.
I personaly liked Denniss phisic and I wish I could have body like him more than Paco and Rhul. But,judging BBing competition is another story.
Then I tell you the reason why Paco is ahead of Dennis this is clear.

Mass....Paco
Cuts....Paco
Shape.....Wolf.

Paco 2 and Wolf 1.

Its pure math.

As a Japanese I wish Hide well in the competion. But,5th is way exagerated.His legs are great. But,his back is too narrow and didnt have line that Italian had(Also mass). Silvio has same problem. VERY NARROW especialy when he hit doble bi.

Mass, Cuts and Shape are not necessarily the judging criteria, but parts of it.

Also, if Milos is saying the score sheets were not filled out, filled out wrong, or added wrong - this IS a big issue. and should be investigated.

[Milos_Sarcev]

MORE IMPORTANTLY - I was informing all of you that score sheets need to be collected from each and every judge and than present publicly for everyone to see.

#1 - Judges have to start being responsible for their decisions and should (rather they MUST) elaborate on each and every placing.
If I would be a judge and I would put Dennis in first place believe me I would not hide in the shell and not wanting to explain why I saw him better than the others...
I am in very friendly relationship with many guys - but I am also honest with them...
When I could tell Dorian that he got the gift in 1997 and that Nasser should have beat him - I sent him the fax with detailed explanation WHY I thought that (pose for pose, round for round analysis...)
Certainly bodybuilding will always have certain amount of subjectivity...but there are still enough objective facts that could be taken in consideration...



#2 - Officials that were counting scores should realize that even though new judging score sheets don't have separate columns for the ROUND ONE (symmetry) and ROUND TWO (muscularity) - there is the new column (ROUND ONE + ROUND TWO) where scores of first two rounds should be ADDED together and total score of both rounds should be included.

As example - even if every judge gave Paco the first place in both round he would have minimum 10 points.
He officially had 7!!!

Same goes for all the other athletes.

So - it looks to me that instead of adding symmetry points and muscularity points - officials (this time NOT JUDGES) wrote only ONE out of those two rounds - and that is catastrophic mistake...Making possible that scores are inaccurate!

In the history of many sports - when mistake is noticed - many times adjustments/corrections are made AFTER the realisation of the problem.
Even 1997 at the Olympia something like that happen...1998 in Germany I was called to accept 4the place trophy...and Chris Comer was fifth...Just to learn later that mistake was made and I had to return the trophy, get less money...and loose my placing...
I accepted it with no problem...
It is human to make the mistake and we are all entitled for that.
But, when mistake is realized and quite soon - we should all react immediately...

We can start with asking the IFBB to post EVERY SCORE SHEET OF (I believe 7 judges that were judging contest).
I would be more than happy to count the scores for them.

[shootfighter1]

Score sheets should be made public, no question about it.

[Milos_Sarcev]

Dont get me wrong. I know Paco personaly and he is my neighbor. But,I was totaly far from that truth. I had problem with choosing Paco or Markus. But,Dennis...never.
I personaly liked Denniss phisic and I wish I could have body like him more than Paco and Rhul. But,judging BBing competition is another story.
Then I tell you the reason why Paco is ahead of Dennis this is clear.

Mass....Paco
Cuts....Paco
Shape.....Wolf.

Paco 2 and Wolf 1.

Its pure math.

As a Japanese I wish Hide well in the competion. But,5th is way exagerated.His legs are great. But,his back is too narrow and didnt have line that Italian had(Also mass). Silvio has same problem. VERY NARROW especialy when he hit doble bi.

There is so much more to judge than only three things you've mentioned...

Width is another thing very important and while you've noticed Hide's lack of width - you didn't realize Phill Heath's lack of width that never stop him for winning every show he has ever entered...Or how about many other great "narrow champions...should we start with Shawn Ray, Flex Wheeler, Lee Priest...etc...etc...)

Again - I am NOT 'fighting" with you - I appreciatte good conversation and this is the topic that I hope many will get involved...

I just have no time at this second - as I am taking the flight with Dennis to Las Vegas in couple of hours...

[Milos_Sarcev]

I will also post numerous photos on boards to let everyone judge for themselves...

[Adam Empire]

I don't believe the IFBB would ever admit a mistake (unfortunately).

[the shadow]

MORE IMPORTANTLY - I was informing all of you that score sheets need to be collected from each and every judge and than present publicly for everyone to see.

#1 - Judges have to start being responsible for their decisions and should (rather they MUST) elaborate on each and every placing.
If I would be a judge and I would put Dennis in first place believe me I would not hide in the shell and not wanting to explain why I saw him better than the others...
I am in very friendly relationship with many guys - but I am also honest with them...
When I could tell Dorian that he got the gift in 1997 and that Nasser should have beat him - I sent him the fax with detailed explanation WHY I thought that (pose for pose, round for round analysis...)
Certainly bodybuilding will always have certain amount of subjectivity...but there are still enough objective facts that could be taken in consideration...



#2 - Officials that were counting scores should realize that even though new judging score sheets don't have separate columns for the ROUND ONE (symmetry) and ROUND TWO (muscularity) - there is the new column (ROUND ONE + ROUND TWO) where scores of first two rounds should be ADDED together and total score of both rounds should be included.

As example - even if every judge gave Paco the first place in both round he would have minimum 10 points.
He officially had 7!!!

Same goes for all the other athletes.

So - it looks to me that instead of adding symmetry points and muscularity points - officials (this time NOT JUDGES) wrote only ONE out of those two rounds - and that is catastrophic mistake...Making possible that scores are inaccurate!

In the history of many sports - when mistake is noticed - many times adjustments/corrections are made AFTER the realisation of the problem.
Even 1997 at the Olympia something like that happen...1998 in Germany I was called to accept 4the place trophy...and Chris Comer was fifth...Just to learn later that mistake was made and I had to return the trophy, get less money...and loose my placing...
I accepted it with no problem...
It is human to make the mistake and we are all entitled for that.
But, when mistake is realized and quite soon - we should all react immediately...

We can start with asking the IFBB to post EVERY SCORE SHEET OF (I believe 7 judges that were judging contest).
I would be more than happy to count the scores for them.

dude so you are saying paco is the wrong winner...your crazy man if you think so

[the shadow]

I will also post numerous photos on boards to let everyone judge for themselves...

paco won fair and square.personally i wanted big bad ruhl to win but to say things like paco is the wrong winner is totally not acceptable..dude we are talking about an IFBB show.the judges are not that dumb..open up your eyes and lay of the crack pipe..
WHATS WRONG WITH YOU MAN!!!!!ARE YOU CRAZY OR SOMETHING

[Chick]

Milos-

I already have it on my agenda to bring up the lack of individual judges scores ( as was adopted into rule last year) and the scoring system.

[The True Adonis]

Milos-

I already have it on my agenda to bring up the lack of individual judges scores ( as was adopted into rule last year) and the scoring system.

You always have an agenda.

Lee Priest rules.

[kyomu]

There is so much more to judge than only three things you've mentioned...

Width is another thing very important and while you've noticed Hide's lack of width - you didn't realize Phill Heath's lack of width that never stop him for winning every show he has ever entered...Or how about many other great "narrow champions...should we start with Shawn Ray, Flex Wheeler, Lee Priest...etc...etc...)

Again - I am NOT 'fighting" with you - I appreciatte good conversation and this is the topic that I hope many will get involved...

I just have no time at this second - as I am taking the flight with Dennis to Las Vegas in couple of hours...

But I think these three staffs are Basic and golden rules arent they?
If you dont think about these threee thing, you will end up with your taste only and creating chaos.

When i talk about width. I am talking about relatively. BBing is a ilusional competition as you know very well.
Shawn doesnt "look" narrow.Even Lee Priest doesnt "look" narrow for me. But,Hide and Silvio do.
They are relatively narrow with another Body parts including size of head(Important).

Of course I dont write with bad feeling. I am not a young kid who dont know you. I know you who you are and you have been like a greek god for me years.I am really appriciat with making good "fight" with you.
Wow I am arguing with GREAT MILOS SARCEV!!

[Adam Empire]

paco won fair and square.personally i wanted big bad ruhl to win but to say things like paco is the wrong winner is totally not acceptable..dude we are talking about an IFBB show.the judges are not that dumb..open up your eyes and lay of the crack pipe..
WHATS WRONG WITH YOU MAN!!!!!ARE YOU CRAZY OR SOMETHING

I think everybody is missing the point here - the scorecards could not have been added correctly (or in the correct way) to get the scores to come out like they did.  A 7 for Paco isn't possible.