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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on September 09, 2010, 03:25:08 PM
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http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2006/09/why_is_a_piss_c.php
September 26, 2006
Why Is A 'Piss Christ' Okay - But A 'Piss Muhammed' Is 'Too Offensive To Muslims' To Display ?
Topics: Dhimmitude
________________________ ________________________ _______
Alternative title - "On More Outrage From The Religion Of Perpetual Outrage"
The secular, left-wing, anti-Christian media, academia, and the art world can "piss on Christ" any damned time they want to, but should anyone remotely joke about Muhammed, Islam, and its association with terrorism and violent jihad, and the Muslim world goes absolutely nuts!
In fact, CAIR followers of the religion of perpetual outrage even express outrage over an ad campaign by a car dealership, that pokes fun at terrorism (although it does call attention to Muslims' tendency to refuse to assimilate into American life, putting the ummah before American citizenship).
Why is that so? Why is the image on the left considered "art", but the image on the left "offensive to Muslim sensitivities"? Why in the hell should we care? Do we or do we not still have free speech in America?
Image on left - Christ in a vial of blood and urine, Image on right - Muhammed in a vial of blood and urine]
From our previous post we know that:
... the Council on American-Islamic Relations vehemently objected to the airing of the Ad. Asma Mobin-Uddin, president of the Columbus chapter of C.A.I.R., said she was concerned the ad's tone and imagery are "mocking and disrespectful to many different areas. One is Islamic faith and Islamic culture." She added "I don't think it's appropriate when it causes real pain. It exploits or promotes misunderstanding in terms already misunderstood or misused."
Well, if a simple ad campaign from a car dealership that mocks the Islamic terrorists has CAIR going ape (no pun intended):
... the Council on American-Islamic Relations vehemently objected to the airing of the Ad. Asma Mobin-Uddin, president of the Columbus chapter of C.A.I.R., said she was concerned the ad's tone and imagery are "mocking and disrespectful to many different areas, and one is "the Islamic faith and Islamic culture," and inappropriate "when it causes real pain" (what pain?), and exploits or promotes misunderstanding in terms already misunderstood or misused (blatently not the case - CAIR wants us to believe Islamic extremism and terrorism are not associated with interpretations from the Koran???)
... then why is putting a crucifix in a bottle of blood and urine laughed at by the media and the secular public, and called "art", with total disregard to the "real pain" and "mocking and disrespectful to many different areas, such as "the Christian faith and Christian culture," not considered equally offensive to Christians, and banned?
Because of something called free speech guaranteed all of us in the Constitution of the United States of America. CAIR and many Muslims that support them do not agree with this when it conflicts with Islamic law.
"Piss Christ" and the Virgin Mary being covered in elephant dung, and a plethura of other blasphemies that the Christian Church endures, are just as painful to Christians as some of the things that Muslims find offensive. However, so many Muslims, especially those at CAIR, find so damned much to be outraged about and find to be offensive, that we have to ask ourselves are they acting on an agenda to Islamicize America, or are they truly offended, or both. In either case, it doesn't matter. In a free and democratic sociey, Islam deserves no special treatment, it is no different than any other religion, and it certainly deserves no special protections from criticism. If CAIR and its supporters spent half the time condemning violent jihad, violence against other religions, terrorism, intolerance of non-Muslims in Muslim countries, and spreading Islam by the sword - as they did condemning and blaming everyone else for violations of "Muslim sensitivities", we'd have a hell of a lot less problems with terrorism in this world today.
You will find many more "Piss-Muhammed" - type images here...
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This is a First Amendment issue. Nothing wrong with posting on the Politics Board.
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Do we just expect muslims to act like animals in these cases?
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The Muslim world and the "Free Speech Left" are hypocrites to the umpteenth degree.
We're all human beings, we all do and say things that we could do without. Even those that are Christians make mistakes...I am a prime example and maybe even the poster child, lol! So in a sense, we are all hypocrites to a degree, it's in our nature but there is a line of reason that the Muslim/Left have gone beyond, there is a drape of Holier Than Thou they've covered themselves in simply to elude criticism in their own lives.
But it's important to understand, this argument has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with religion, moreover, it really has nothing to do with morality either. If you can create a system that is beyond reproach, if you can create an idea that is beyond questioning and that is free above all other things, then you have created real and true power and that's what this whole game is really about.
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This is a First Amendment issue. Nothing wrong with posting on the Politics Board.
you can attach a political cookie to every religion post, especially around islam. I made a call, deal with it. Nothing wrong with talking about this here, it usually ends up an attack on the religion anyway and not as political.
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you can attach a political cookie to every religion post, especially around islam. I made a call, deal with it. Nothing wrong with talking about this here, it usually ends up an attack on the religion anyway and not as political.
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you can attach a political cookie to every religion post, especially around islam. I made a call, deal with it. Nothing wrong with talking about this here, it usually ends up an attack on the religion anyway and not as political.
lol. Flex those muscles. Not a big deal. It's clearly a political topic.
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lol. Flex those muscles. Not a big deal. It's clearly a political topic.
you'll get over it... or not knowing you lol....
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you'll get over it... or not knowing you lol....
Oh no. I'll be cussing up a storm, banging my keboard, and melting down all over the board.
No wait . . . . That's you. :)
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looks more like what you're doing lol... I just moved a thread I thought belonged here more than politics and you getting bent over it lol stop crying, it's a moved thread, not 4 more years for obama. oh the drama haha
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lol. Flex those muscles. Not a big deal. It's clearly a political topic.
I agree huggy this is a political point even more so than the palin nat enq baby/cheating threads you let slide during the election...
not cool man, not cool
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Bump
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You realize Muslims protested insults against Jesus (peace be upon him) as much as they do against all the prophets and God?
It is because our faith in God is greater than your faith or lack of faith in God.
You don't care if Israelis crucify a monkey calling him Jesus.
If you even believe that Jesus is God (and he is not) you are letting a people you send billions of dollars to call your God a monkey.
They also call the 'mother of god' (as catholics would call mary) a whore and prostitute.
When I saw them doing this i was indeed angry. yet you guys brush it off.
Jesus is a mighty messenger of God. Alongside the other mighty messengers of God. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed.
There is no distinction between one or the other. Just Muhammad is the last and final messenger of God
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Christ is the son of, and the only way to, the living God.
As for attention-whore antics like these, people should just ignore them. The whole 'Pisschrist' thing was created by an "artist" who realized he has no talent and dropped a crucifix into a container of urine to gin up controversy.
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Please move this to the politics board - it is very confusing to have it here.
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The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was established in 1994 to challenge stereotypes of Islam and Muslims. Today, the organization has a nationwide presence and a headquarters on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.
The vast majority of CAIR’s work deals with civil rights and anti-defamation. These two categories alone account for 50 percent of the 1,999 news releases reviewed for this report.
CAIR has consistently won praise from elected officials and the media for its tenacious efforts to combat both discrimination against Muslims and defamation of Islam.
No mention of theology. Please move to politics. Thanks in advance.
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Christ is the son of, and the only way to, the living God.
David: Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
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"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." (Luke 3:38)
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
I Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
I Chronicles 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
And the verse in 3:16 begotten is a later fabrication in early scriptures.
Jesus is not God.
As God himself says God is not a man in the old testament.
What these 'son of' refer to is being a godly person, meaning, a person who fears God and has God consciousness, it is the way the hebrews spoke as is evident in the old testament.
Secondly Jesus being the only way to God. Yes at the time. BEcause at the Jesus was sent as a messenger of God, inviting others to God. Clearly, the messengers are the ONLY way to God Almighty as they are the representation of the decrees, laws, etc... of God.
The last and final messenger of God Muhammad (pbuh) is the way to God now.
Jesus was sent to the children of Israel (Jacob), Muhammad is sent to all mankind for all time until the end times.
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David: Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
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"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." (Luke 3:38)
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
I Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
I Chronicles 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
And the verse in 3:16 begotten is a later fabrication in early scriptures.
Jesus is not God.
As God himself says God is not a man in the old testament.
What these 'son of' refer to is being a godly person, meaning, a person who fears God and has God consciousness, it is the way the hebrews spoke as is evident in the old testament.
Secondly Jesus being the only way to God. Yes at the time. BEcause at the Jesus was sent as a messenger of God, inviting others to God. Clearly, the messengers are the ONLY way to God Almighty as they are the representation of the decrees, laws, etc... of God.
The last and final messenger of God Muhammad (pbuh) is the way to God now.
Jesus was sent to the children of Israel (Jacob), Muhammad is sent to all mankind for all time until the end times.
So, in short your refutation of Christ as the son of God lies in the use of "son of" in the OT and the later use of "begotten" in John 3:16?
Ok, well here's an explanation on the use of "son of":
JESUS THE "SON" OF GOD
INTRODUCTION
Jesus called Himself the "Son of God" throughout the Gospels, (John 3:16-18), and the disciples also identified Him as the Son of God in their writings, (Rom 1:3).
Further, Jesus identified Himself as God revealed in the flesh, (John 8:58), and His disciples identified Him as God, (John 1:1, Phil 2:5-11). How could Jesus be The Son of God, and God at the same time? What does this term - "Son of God" mean? And if Jesus is the Son, in what way is Jesus God's Son? Did God have physical relations with Mary and get her pregnant?
Many Muslims do not understand what this term, according to Christian theology, actually means. They have asked me these or similar questions. This paper focuses on what the term "Son of God" signifies in Christian theology with respect to Muslim understanding.
MUSLIMS AND THE SON OF GOD
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, misunderstood what the term "Son of God" meant with respect to Christianity. He thought of it only in terms of sexual reproduction, i.e. that God fathered a child through sexual intercourse with Mary. Therefore he spoke out against it.
Christians also reject that God had physical intercourse with Mary, but we understand Christ being God's Son as an analogical term. We believe that the eternal Son of God, one with the Father from all eternity, united to Him in one Spirit, "became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14), and took "the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7). We believe in the incarnation of the Son of God.
Muhammad did hear the Christians proclaim Jesus the Messiah as God's Son, but understanding or not, he specifically denied that Jesus was the Son of God. He said in the Quran,
Sura 2:116 - "They say: "God has begotten a son". Glory be to Him. No, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him."
and,
Sura 9:30 - "The Christians say the Messiah is the Son of God, that is a saying from their mouths."
Muhammad was unable to distinguish between the Christian belief in Jesus as the Son of God and the Arab Pagan belief in idols as offspring of God, i.e., Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, (these were idols worshipped around Mecca as daughters of the supreme God - or Allah). Muhammad misunderstood that Christians in no way consider Jesus - the Son of God, in the same way the Arab Pagans understood their idols.
Muhammad's misconception of the Sonship of Christ is another proof that the Quran was not revealed to him by God, but rather it was built upon Muhammad's own concepts and ideology.
Because of Muhammad's misunderstanding, Islam places limits on God's power. In view of this, a Christian writer commented that "to assert that God has no Son because He has no wife is like saying that God is not living because He does not draw breath." Daniel, "Islam and the West, p.182.
WHAT THE TERM "SON OF GOD" SIGNIFIES
The expression "Son of God", is an analogical term. It indicates origin, a close association, or identification. In Christian theology it describes the relationship of two persons of the triune God. It expresses an intimate relationship between two persons: God the Father, and God the Son - Jesus the Messiah.
Here are several scriptures illustrating this facet of their relationship:
John 17:5 - "And now Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
Here Jesus stated that He was with the Father before the world began.
Colossians 1:13-20 "For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him and through him to reconcile to himself all things whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
Here, we see the term "Son of God", brought to light: "the image of the invisible God".
Hebrews 1:1-3 "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."
Again, we see the relationship between the Father and the Son disclosed, "the exact representation of His being".
John 1:1-3, 10, 14, 18 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him, nothing was made that has been made......(10) He was in the world and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him....(14) The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father full of grace and truth......(18) No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side has made Him known."
John 14:8, 10 "Don't you know me Phillip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?"
Jesus plainly told Phillip, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father".
From these verses we see that in Christ, the invisible God is revealed. Jesus was with the Father before the world began. Christ, as God the Son, is the Creator of all things. God in all His fullness, dwelt in Christ, reconciling the world. We see that Christ, as the Son of God - God's representation, is God manifest and revealed to the world. Angels, prophets, and things can reveal to us something about God. But God alone can reveal God. It takes God to reveal Himself to mankind. What better way for the eternal revealer to be revealed to mankind on earth than by clothing His self-expresion in human form?
JESUS AS THE WORD OF GOD
Muslims believe that the Quran - their Word of God - is eternal. The Quran also calls Jesus the Word of God. Since Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal, yet is able to enter into the limitations of time and space, and become available in book form, could not Jesus as the Word of God, be made manifest in human form? If on earth, Muslims believe that the uncreated Word of God - i.e., the Quran - is found as a book making it both uncreated and created, then cannot the uncreated Word of God be revealed as a human, if God willed it? That God has willed this is revealed in the testimony of the Gospels - God's eternal self-expression, His Word, His Son, has entered human form as Jesus the Messiah.
God the Father and God the Son are both God, but they are different persons. They are equal in essence, indeed of one essence, yet one is subject to the other's authority. The human analogy goes no further than this - an earthly father and his son are both human to the full, yet the second must bow to the authority of the first. Jesus is subject to the Father's authority. When He came to earth He came as the Father's ambassador to redeem men from sin and, being found in human form, took His subjection to the Father's authority to the point of a son to a father's relationship.
As the Son of God, Christ, the second person of the Trinity, possesses the same essence as the Father, yet is subject to the Father as an earthly son is subject to his father. Jesus is not the Son of God because of His mighty works and miracles, but He did those works because He is the Son of God.
The prime duty of a son is to honor and obey his father, to serve him freely and fully. The ideas of being a servant and a son are found throughout the Bible. Jesus as God the Son, served God the Father not out of compulsion but because of His unity with the Father, served out of love.
MUSLIM ARGUMENTS AGAINST JESUS BEING THE SON OF GOD
Muslims frequently ask that if Jesus were really God's Son, or God in the flesh, why didn't Jesus know the date of the hour of judgment? Ref. Matthew 24:36.
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."
Or if Jesus were God in the flesh, why did He say,
"The Son can don nothing of his own accord but only what the sees the Father doing,.....The Father is greater than I,.... I can do nothing on my own authority." John 5:19, 14:28, 5:30.
Muslims will ask rhetorical questions such as, "Wouldn't God know the last hour of Judgment?" Or, "If Jesus were God, why did He say, "the Father is greater than I"?"
The answer lies in what Christ's Sonship on earth entails. The passage that best addresses it is Philippians 2:5-8. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death on the cross."
Here Christ emptied Himself. The Sonship of Christ is revealed in this: He was revealed as God in the flesh, and yet submitted to God the Father. He was limited as a man, and He glorified God the Father. The analogical term "Son" best describes Christ's relationship with God the Father.
Christ's exalted relationship is even seen in the very verse Muslims choose to attack His Sonship... In Mark 13:32 Christ says, "But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Here, Jesus places Himself above men, and above the angels. Jesus describes Himself alone in a category in relation to God.
Likewise, Christ when saying that He does nothing of His own accord, states that "whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise." Christ establishes His Sonship and puts Himself in perfect harmony with God. Even Muhammad is declared in the Quran as a sinner in Sura 48:2, but Christ walked in perfect harmony with the Father.
As Muhammad failed to understand what "Son of God" signified, so today, many Muslims continue to misunderstand. The term "Son of God" does not mean that God had intercourse with Mary, or created sons for Himself, but that Jesus, as God, is the image of God, made manifest to men. As Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal, uncreated, and is the Word of God found in physical book form, they should be able to understand that Jesus is eternal, uncreated, and is the Living Word of God in physical living form.
CONCLUSION
Jesus manifested his eternal abiding glory to John - as opposed to the veiled form of a humble servant he had while he walked this earth - while John was imprisoned on the isle of Patmos, revealing himself as what he truly was and will forever be, God Almighty -
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 22:13, 16. "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.".....(16) I Jesus have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches.
Jesus is the Son of God. This means that He is God, revealed to man. The term "Son of God" is an analogy, describing the relationship between two persons of God. Christ is the image of God to mankind. God - omnipotent, revealed Himself to mankind, in Christ.
Jesus is Lord. Amen, come Lord Jesus.
It's a good read.
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Long, blue text, did not read.
You can't seem to argue point by point when I try to debate you independently. Each time I tried you could not refute the scriptures or the verses I expose as forgeries you just brush it of. Your best response has been "I have found christ have you". That makes no sense.
So do you honestly think you have proven anything by repeating the verses that are forged amongst other verses while ignoring verses I've posted in one giant chunk of copy paste?
You can't seem to argue yourself point by point except by a giant copy paste or an emotoinal response of how you have seen christ or some other emo thing.
Also I was a Christian and I assure you Muslims are not 'confused' about the trinity. It's quite clear. God is one. Period. You yourself and generally Christians are confused about the trinity everyone gives their own conjecture.
(1) And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام]:
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)
(2) And if you obey most of those on the earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #116)
(3) And most of them follow nothing but conjecture. Certainly, conjecture can be of no avail against the truth. Surely, Allah is All-Aware of what they do.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #36)
(4) No doubt! Verily, to Allah belongs whosoever is in the heavens and whosoever is in the earth. And those who worship and invoke others besides Allah, in fact they follow not (Allah's so-called) partners, they follow only a conjecture and they only invent lies.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #66)
(5) Indeed they did disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allah, Islam, the Qur'an and Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) before (in this world), and they (used to) conjecture about the Unseen [i.e. the Hereafter, Hell, Paradise, Resurrection and the Promise of Allah (by saying) all that is untrue], from a far place.
( سورة سبأ , Saba, Chapter #34, Verse #53)
(6) And they say: "There is nothing but our life of this world, we die and we live and nothing destroys us except Ad-Dahr (time). And they have no knowledge of it: they only conjecture.
( سورة الجاثية , Al-Jathiya, Chapter #45, Verse #24)
(7) And when it was said: "Verily, Allah's Promise is the truth, and there is no doubt about the coming of the Hour," you said: "We know not what is the Hour: we do not think it but as a conjecture, and we have no firm convincing belief (therein)."
( سورة الجاثية , Al-Jathiya, Chapter #45, Verse #32)
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A God that does not know? A God that dies? A God that commits suicide? A God that needs food and water? A God that eats himself as sacrifice? A God that needs human blood sacrifice? A God that is human? A God that changes his mind?
That is not God. God only changes the criterion for people, but He himself does not. All of the above are nothing but blasphemies by those that came after Jesus peace be upon him.
And Jesus.. was not God. Because what God does not KNOW?
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. Mark 13:32
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."Luke 22:42
A God that has bipolar disorder?
You forge lies against God... and merely blaspheme. Just using the NT by itself and not quoting the OT... one can disprove the trinity and it's paradoxical nature.
God does not confuse or deceive, only men do. God gives CLEAR guidance with no error.
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Long, blue text, did not read.
You can't seem to argue point by point when I try to debate you independently. Each time I tried you could not refute the scriptures or the verses I expose as forgeries you just brush it of. Your best response has been "I have found christ have you". That makes no sense.
So do you honestly think you have proven anything by repeating the verses that are forged amongst other verses while ignoring verses I've posted in one giant chunk of copy paste?
You can't seem to argue yourself point by point except by a giant copy paste or an emotoinal response of how you have seen christ or some other emo thing.
Also I was a Christian and I assure you Muslims are not 'confused' about the trinity. It's quite clear. God is one. Period. You yourself and generally Christians are confused about the trinity everyone gives their own conjecture.
Sorry friend, but far greater theologians than you or I will ever be have agreed upon this information and reconciled your "issues".
LOL!! "Point by point".....it's there and no worries I'll remedy the color issue so it's also there in black and white.
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So no answer again?
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. Mark 13:32
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."Luke 22:42
So God does not know? God has bipolar disorder here talking about himself to himself but not himself?
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Hypocrisy is a mofo.
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You realize Muslims protested insults against Jesus (peace be upon him) as much as they do against all the prophets and God?
Protests are one thing. Killing people is quite another... Most all religions have been used as an excuse to kill, but the track record of Muslims in recent history is almost unmatched.
Besides, if your God truly takes offense to those things, why doesn't he directly deal with those who insult him? Surely he's powerful enough to not have to rely on angry idiots?
It is because our faith in God is greater than your faith or lack of faith in God.
Faith in God cannot be used to justify the initiation of violence. As a matter of fact, nothing can justify the initiation of violence.
You don't care if Israelis crucify a monkey calling him Jesus.
I don't care what deities the Israelis insult.
If you even believe that Jesus is God (and he is not) you are letting a people you send billions of dollars to call your God a monkey.
The issue of financial assistance of Israel is quite divorced from this. I don't agree with the principle of Government providing financial assistance to anyone, regardless of how they treat religious figments of people's imagination.
They also call the 'mother of god' (as catholics would call mary) a whore and prostitute.
OK, and?
Jesus is a mighty messenger of God. Alongside the other mighty messengers of God. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed.
Jesus was just another composite religious character in a long line of composite religious characters. Same with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and yes, Muhammad.
There is no distinction between one or the other. Just Muhammad is the last and final messenger of God
Of course he is, because that's what you believe... ::)
In reality Muhammad was just another uneducated goat herder, no different than many others before him, who realized that he could manipulate others by making up a bullshit story.
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A God that does not know? A God that dies? A God that commits suicide? A God that needs food and water? A God that eats himself as sacrifice? A God that needs human blood sacrifice? A God that is human? A God that changes his mind?
That is not God. God only changes the criterion for people, but He himself does not. All of the above are nothing but blasphemies by those that came after Jesus peace be upon him.
And Jesus.. was not God. Because what God does not KNOW?
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. Mark 13:32
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."Luke 22:42
A God that has bipolar disorder?
You forge lies against God... and merely blaspheme. Just using the NT by itself and not quoting the OT... one can disprove the trinity and it's paradoxical nature.
God does not confuse or deceive, only men do. God gives CLEAR guidance with no error.
Actually it would make more sense that God came down in human form and lived a human life so we couldn't blame him for making life so hard, this way he can say he went through it as well makes ten times more sense then an arrogant power thirsty imag you implore
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Sorry friend, but far greater theologians than you or I will ever be have agreed upon this information and reconciled your "issues".
Theologians agree on precious little -- hence the endless variations of Christianity throughout history and those that will no doubt be spawned in the future -- but even if they do agree, what is agreed upon does not thereby become truth. In any case, it would be pretty easy to find a theologian who disagrees with your theologians, rendering your appeal to authority moot. Finally, such a means of reasoning is fallacious: an expert's (I use the word loosely here, as I've never been able to see how theologians aren't quasi-philosophers, quasi-scientists who are awful at both) opinion is only valuable to the extent that there is a good argument behind it, not because the expert is renowned or smarter than you or I.
So God does not know? God has bipolar disorder here talking about himself to himself but not himself?
I'm glad that you have some rational faculty and are able to apply it in a stringent criticism of ideas -- in this case, to the man (of steel)'s stated reasons for becoming an acolyte and mental serf to a particular set of memes (ideas) commonly called Christianity. I wonder, however, whether you've never considered doing the same for your own beliefs. What exactly is different about the reasoning behind Islamic memes that has you convinced? Have you submitted Islam to the withering criticism you've applied to Christianity? Have you ever considered the possibility that you are wrong and are Man of Steel's Islamic counterpart?
Actually it would make more sense that God came down in human form and lived a human life so we couldn't blame him for making life so hard, this way he can say he went through it as well makes ten times more sense then an arrogant power thirsty imag you implore
(http://i.minus.com/iUzUPE6iVeCHX.gif)
Good to have you back!
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I'm glad that you have some rational faculty and are able to apply it in a stringent criticism of ideas -- in this case, to the man (of steel)'s stated reasons for becoming an acolyte and mental serf to a particular set of memes (ideas) commonly called Christianity. I wonder, however, whether you've never considered doing the same for your own beliefs. What exactly is different about the reasoning behind Islamic memes that has you convinced? Have you submitted Islam to the withering criticism you've applied to Christianity? Have you ever considered the possibility that you are wrong and are Man of Steel's Islamic counterpart?
You do not accept islam blindly. The concept of 'faith' in christianity is that of blindness. The concept of faith in islam is that of rational acceptance. Everything has a reason and explanation although we primarily obey God, but everything that is told to us can be explained and come to a conclusion through rational.
With christianity everything is about mere emotional rhetoric. That is why europeans have developed this eurocentric mentality of religion that all religions are like the church/christianity and that rational cannot be mended with religion.
Islam proved the contrary throughout history as islam flourished alongside sciences, philosophy, and all othe rsorts of works.
The qur'an always enocurages us to think, it literally says in so many verse "for those that think.
So yes I went through a long strenous process, I had to learn about christianity and other religions before I embraced islam. My own experience.
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Theologians agree on precious little -- hence the endless variations of Christianity throughout history and those that will no doubt be spawned in the future -- but even if they do agree, what is agreed upon does not thereby become truth. In any case, it would be pretty easy to find a theologian who disagrees with your theologians, rendering your appeal to authority moot. Finally, such a means of reasoning is fallacious: an expert's (I use the word loosely here, as I've never been able to see how theologians aren't quasi-philosophers, quasi-scientists who are awful at both) opinion is only valuable to the extent that there is a good argument behind it, not because the expert is renowned or smarter than you or I.
I'm glad that you have some rational faculty and are able to apply it in a stringent criticism of ideas -- in this case, to the man (of steel)'s stated reasons for becoming an acolyte and mental serf to a particular set of memes (ideas) commonly called Christianity. I wonder, however, whether you've never considered doing the same for your own beliefs. What exactly is different about the reasoning behind Islamic memes that has you convinced? Have you submitted Islam to the withering criticism you've applied to Christianity? Have you ever considered the possibility that you are wrong and are Man of Steel's Islamic counterpart?
(http://i.minus.com/iUzUPE6iVeCHX.gif)
Good to have you back!
Hey syntax you won't believe this but that repetitive replay image made me laugh so hard, actually for like 10 minutes, lol,... I don't why but that was funny as hell,. ;D
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The concept of faith in islam is that of rational acceptance.
::)
So yes I went through a long strenous process, I had to learn about christianity and other religions before I embraced islam. My own experience.
May I ask which were the "other religions" you mention, where you got your information about them and what you liked or disliked about them.
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Islam is the only absolute monotheistic religion. All the others are tainted with some form of idolatry. All have been tampered with and adultered by men. Except Islam. Islam unlike any other religion has itself preserved.
The qur'an is preserved which is the direct revelation from God and his messenger.
The messenger's life and the life of his companions and those that followed is preserved in utmots detail. There is not a person in history who has his life as preserved in detail about everything than Muhammad (pbuh) has. The witnesses around him whether muslim or non muslim number in the tens of thousands. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand for instance in christianity we only hear of him being born, at the temple as a child, 33, then gone. That's it. And not in detail. Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions on the other hand we have every intimate detail possible. Preserved and authenticated via hadi'th science. An intricate system of chains of narrators, validity of narrators, credibility of narrators, etc... that goes into depth when evaluating what is true or not true. Basically no different than today referencing scholarly works in university when writing a paper, except it goes a few steps deeper. Even if a person lied once, or was sinful their statements would be unacceptable as true. It is quite interesting albeit a bit complex espceially for a non muslim to understand.
I literally went through many stages but I always had this intrinsic belief in God, it was not forced upon me. I happen to be a person that loves reading and writing and I made sure to use my time for it when I was younger. I am also a very introspective person. I like to observe around me.
I did not only read about religion. I read with a passion history, recent, modern, ancient.. i loved reading about ancient civlizations too, incaa, aztecs, mayan, summerians, babylonians, persians, egyptians, chinese, indian, european, etc...
I loved science, especially physics and space... then took an interest in understanding biology, especially human anatomy and physiology.. all just as a hobby.. and curiosity. I love science..
Also loved philosophy... and took advantage of paying attention in school... all forms of it... Aristotlean, Platonic world views...Skepticism... They all had a mental shaping on me that made me deeply think about myself, others and all around us, existence itself. The one thing that is so simple yet real... we think therefore we are. It's quite powerful... There is order and purpose and we are not an accident.
And finally yes, I read about all the world religions i could come across, east and west. Of course I read into christianity, judaism.. the various sects of christianity. Along the way I even read about pagans, paganism, neopaganism, witchcraft (yeah i kid u not..), ancient african religions, roman and greek pagan religions, egyptian pagan religions, i was also very intrigued with zoroastrianism which is older than judaism or christianity.. and it also had an impact on me when later studying islam. Of course i studied hinduism, budhism, jainism, a little bit sikhism, a few other offshoot minor religions from hinduism.. confucianism, japanese religions; shinto budhism, zen budhism... and ultimately prior to and post 911 i studied islam.
I was having serious battles wiht my priests and christian teachers about the trinity and bible at the time.. i dweled into studying the bible tha tmuch more because of it... got a hold of apocryphas translated into english.. whatever i could as well
Ironically the one who encouraged me was my philosophy teacher who left the vatican was in the order and was the one to encourage me by saying indeed the trinity is a lie and God is one. I also had a dream in which I saw Jesus inj white long robes... alhtough his face not visible but somehow i 'felt it'... in which I was told God is one. Although most people except those with faith would believe in this from me but hey im sharing it..
The one verse that hit me in the quran was the one that speaks about past people and how they were before us and they were given more power and wealth than us yet today all tha tremains are their ruins. And indeed... people are in awe of these civilizations yet they were destroyed. And they wer mostly idolators.
I can't recall off by head now what else but .. i've went through reading about all possibilities and all religions...
I came to conclude that i have found commonalities in all.. and those are in all religions... but where they differed was quite clear human error.. and that God would not misguide us.. but that men do. Especially when they contradict themselves.
In Islam I found no contradictions except purity and certainty. It reaffirms all that was and finalizes it as a seal.
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Islam is the only absolute monotheistic religion. All the others are tainted with some form of idolatry. All have been tampered with and adultered by men. Except Islam. Islam unlike any other religion has itself preserved.
The qur'an is preserved which is the direct revelation from God and his messenger.
The messenger's life and the life of his companions and those that followed is preserved in utmots detail. There is not a person in history who has his life as preserved in detail about everything than Muhammad (pbuh) has. The witnesses around him whether muslim or non muslim number in the tens of thousands. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand for instance in christianity we only hear of him being born, at the temple as a child, 33, then gone. That's it. And not in detail. Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions on the other hand we have every intimate detail possible. Preserved and authenticated via hadi'th science. An intricate system of chains of narrators, validity of narrators, credibility of narrators, etc... that goes into depth when evaluating what is true or not true. Basically no different than today referencing scholarly works in university when writing a paper, except it goes a few steps deeper. Even if a person lied once, or was sinful their statements would be unacceptable as true. It is quite interesting albeit a bit complex espceially for a non muslim to understand.
I literally went through many stages but I always had this intrinsic belief in God, it was not forced upon me. I happen to be a person that loves reading and writing and I made sure to use my time for it when I was younger. I am also a very introspective person. I like to observe around me.
I did not only read about religion. I read with a passion history, recent, modern, ancient.. i loved reading about ancient civlizations too, incaa, aztecs, mayan, summerians, babylonians, persians, egyptians, chinese, indian, european, etc...
I loved science, especially physics and space... then took an interest in understanding biology, especially human anatomy and physiology.. all just as a hobby.. and curiosity. I love science..
Also loved philosophy... and took advantage of paying attention in school... all forms of it... Aristotlean, Platonic world views...Skepticism... They all had a mental shaping on me that made me deeply think about myself, others and all around us, existence itself. The one thing that is so simple yet real... we think therefore we are. It's quite powerful... There is order and purpose and we are not an accident.
And finally yes, I read about all the world religions i could come across, east and west. Of course I read into christianity, judaism.. the various sects of christianity. Along the way I even read about pagans, paganism, neopaganism, witchcraft (yeah i kid u not..), ancient african religions, roman and greek pagan religions, egyptian pagan religions, i was also very intrigued with zoroastrianism which is older than judaism or christianity.. and it also had an impact on me when later studying islam. Of course i studied hinduism, budhism, jainism, a little bit sikhism, a few other offshoot minor religions from hinduism.. confucianism, japanese religions; shinto budhism, zen budhism... and ultimately prior to and post 911 i studied islam.
I was having serious battles wiht my priests and christian teachers about the trinity and bible at the time.. i dweled into studying the bible tha tmuch more because of it... got a hold of apocryphas translated into english.. whatever i could as well
Ironically the one who encouraged me was my philosophy teacher who left the vatican was in the order and was the one to encourage me by saying indeed the trinity is a lie and God is one. I also had a dream in which I saw Jesus inj white long robes... alhtough his face not visible but somehow i 'felt it'... in which I was told God is one. Although most people except those with faith would believe in this from me but hey im sharing it..
The one verse that hit me in the quran was the one that speaks about past people and how they were before us and they were given more power and wealth than us yet today all tha tremains are their ruins. And indeed... people are in awe of these civilizations yet they were destroyed. And they wer mostly idolators.
I can't recall off by head now what else but .. i've went through reading about all possibilities and all religions...
I came to conclude that i have found commonalities in all.. and those are in all religions... but where they differed was quite clear human error.. and that God would not misguide us.. but that men do. Especially when they contradict themselves.
In Islam I found no contradictions except purity and certainty. It reaffirms all that was and finalizes it as a seal.
Not true... Sikhism has none of that either... So that's not true.
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You do not accept islam blindly.
You just interpret it blindly... ;D
The concept of faith in islam is that of rational acceptance.
I don't think "rational acceptance" means what you think it means.
Islam proved the contrary throughout history as islam flourished alongside sciences, philosophy, and all othe rsorts of works.
The Olympians also flourished alongside sciences, philosophy and all other sorts of works. What does that prove?
The qur'an always enocurages us to think, it literally says in so many verse "for those that think.
And what does your thinking tell you when the Qur'an makes ridiculous assertions like the heavens and earth and everything else being created in six days? (50:38) What does your thinking tell you about the ridiculous statement that your imaginary friend "made the earth as a fixed abode" (27:16). I could go on, but I don't want you to overthink, would we?
So yes I went through a long strenous process, I had to learn about christianity and other religions before I embraced islam. My own experience.
Yes, I'm sure that learning how to stop using your eight brain cells was a long and arduous process...
Islam is the only absolute monotheistic religion.
And Pastafarianism is the only absolutely pastalicious religion. So?
All the others are tainted with some form of idolatry. All have been tampered with and adultered by men. Except Islam. Islam unlike any other religion has itself preserved.
Islam is just as tainted by idolatry as every other religion out there. Don't you pray towards the Kaaba? And it's been as "tampered and adultered" by men at least as much as any other religion out there. The facts speak for themselves.
The qur'an is preserved which is the direct revelation from God and his messenger.
Objection. Assumes facts no in evidence. First you have to define God, prove that it exists, prove that he intended to send a message, that the messenger is question is the medium through which the message was delivered, that the message has not been corrupted, and that the message is still valid today. In other words, you have a lot of work to do. Off you go.
If you aren't feeling up to that, perhaps you'll answer a single question for us: why did your almighty imaginary friend need a messenger? Why couldn't he make, say, the stars all line up to spell his name? That would be a much more powerful message that sending a goat herder.
The messenger's life and the life of his companions and those that followed is preserved in utmots detail.
Even if this were true, what does it prove? Nothing, that's what. Oh, and did you enjoy all those details about how he took the virginity of his child-bride with his prophetic penis? Why, perhaps he even told her that "I'm about to prophesize, so swallow, don't spit." Such a man!
There is not a person in history who has his life as preserved in detail about everything than Muhammad (pbuh) has.
That's not true. You can get more information about random people on Facebook. And pictures to boot!
Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions on the other hand we have every intimate detail possible.
Really? You have intimate details about his bowel movements?
An intricate system of chains of narrators, validity of narrators, credibility of narrators, etc... that goes into depth when evaluating what is true or not true. Basically no different than today referencing scholarly works in university when writing a paper, except it goes a few steps deeper. Even if a person lied once, or was sinful their statements would be unacceptable as true. It is quite interesting albeit a bit complex espceially for a non muslim to understand.
It's quite clear you don't know much about security. Chains of trust of the type you describe are notoriously weak, and for good reason...
I literally went through many stages but I always had this intrinsic belief in God
Because you're stupid and don't want to deal with the world as it is, but with the world as you wish it to be.
I happen to be a person that loves reading and writing and I made sure to use my time for it when I was younger. I am also a very introspective person. I like to observe around me.
I think you copy-pasted your craigslist "personal" ad by mistake there.
I love science and knowledge... blah blah blah... I searched long and hard... blah blah blah... and then the truth came to me a in a dream... blah blah blah.
::)
In Islam I found no contradictions except purity and certainty. It reaffirms all that was and finalizes it as a seal.
It's hard to find what you aren't looking for.
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Islam is just as tainted by idolatry as every other religion out there. Don't you pray towards the Kaaba? And it's been as "tampered and adultered" by men at least as much as any other religion out there. The facts speak for themselves.
No actually, and that shows your ignorance. Secondly we pray towards the kaba. Yes, not to the kabba, or any idol or object. It is merely a pointer for all muslims to pray united in one direction. Everything islam talks about over and over again is to worship the creator not the creation. That is the fundemental teaching of Islam.
Secondly no Islam has not been tampered with or adultered. Those that have, are known as sects and Muhammad (pbuh) predicted this in one hadith where he says only the one on my path and the path of my companions will be successful/enter heaven. The others will be in the hellfire. Why? Because they have swayed from islam and created their own way.
Islam is one and Muhammad (pbuh) was one, and the quran is one, and God almighty is one and only. Everything about Islam has been preserved unlike any other religions.
Objection. Assumes facts no in evidence. First you have to define God, prove that it exists, prove that he intended to send a message, that the messenger is question is the medium through which the message was delivered, that the message has not been corrupted, and that the message is still valid today. In other words, you have a lot of work to do. Off you go.
You are defining what God must do? You are rejecting what God revealed. A paradox?
If your primitive senses blinded you from that which you dont know or will ever know, will it make it any less true? You see yourself as an 'animal' yet you argue with arrogance and suppose persistent reason. Such ungratefulness and irony. Irony in the sense that you are able to think, yet fail to really see.
If you aren't feeling up to that, perhaps you'll answer a single question for us: why did your almighty imaginary friend need a messenger? Why couldn't he make, say, the stars all line up to spell his name? That would be a much more powerful message that sending a goat herder.
Pretty typical atheist response. Just as the people of the past asked for miracles, and even when the miracles were shown to them they still disbelieved. Even if you had a mountain rise above you, you would disbelieve and try to explain it as a 'natural phenomena'.
Secondly, God sent messengers from amongst themselves. If an 'alien' showed up you'd piss your pants especially in those times. Just 50 years ago people were cowarding in theaters over plastic costumes. lol :)
In fact one of the verses in the qur'an speaks of this, the people of noah asked him why are you not an angel or something other than like one of ourselves. And they cited the same thing saying you are poor, your followers are poor, etc.. and they thought highly of themselves.
Even if this were true, what does it prove? Nothing, that's what. Oh, and did you enjoy all those details about how he took the virginity of his child-bride with his prophetic penis? Why, perhaps he even told her that "I'm about to prophesize, so swallow, don't spit." Such a man!
You are a vile vermin. A hundred years ago the age of consent in delaware US was 7. The average age of consent was 10 years of age. People were more matured and married earlier. They were not perverts like yourself who can't seem to speak without penis in a sentence.
Insults
The rest was just typical atheist sarcasm, cynicism and insults. Nothing useful.
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No actually, and that shows your ignorance.
It does?
Secondly we pray towards the kaba. Yes, not to the kabba, or any idol or object.
I never said you prayed to it. I said "Don't you pray towards the Kaaba?" - see? towards. Perhaps I'm not quite as ignorant as you think!
It is merely a pointer for all muslims to pray united in one direction. Everything islam talks about over and over again is to worship the creator not the creation. That is the fundemental teaching of Islam.
But why pray in any particular direction at all? What's the reasoning behind that?
Secondly no Islam has not been tampered with or adultered.
Please provide substantive evidence for this unsupported assertion.
Those that have, are known as sects and Muhammad (pbuh) predicted this in one hadith where he says only the one on my path and the path of my companions will be successful/enter heaven. The others will be in the hellfire. Why? Because they have swayed from islam and created their own way.
The Bible also says similar things. They're just as unconvincing as the nonsense in your grimoire.
Islam is one and Muhammad (pbuh) was one, and the quran is one, and God almighty is one and only. Everything about Islam has been preserved unlike any other religions.
You sound like Billy Mays trying to sell Oxy-Clean. If I wanted infomercials, I'd tune to late-night TV.
You are defining what God must do? You are rejecting what God revealed. A paradox?
I'm asking why a supposedly all-powerful being needed a scribe and didn't directly manifest himself so as to forever erase all doubt about his existence, his message and his demands.
If your primitive senses blinded you from that which you dont know or will ever know, will it make it any less true? You see yourself as an 'animal' yet you argue with arrogance and suppose persistent reason. Such ungratefulness and irony. Irony in the sense that you are able to think, yet fail to really see.
The problem isn't seeing. The problem is believing. See what I did there? With the seeing, and the believing and the wordplay? ;D
Pretty typical atheist response. Just as the people of the past asked for miracles, and even when the miracles were shown to them they still disbelieved. Even if you had a mountain rise above you, you would disbelieve and try to explain it as a 'natural phenomena'.
Of course I would. Unlike you I don't look around and see mysteries and unknowable supernatural powers at work. If a mountain rose above me, I would try to consider possible natural explanations, before I jumped to the conclusion that it's something supernatural at work.
Secondly, God sent messengers from amongst themselves. If an 'alien' showed up you'd piss your pants especially in those times. Just 50 years ago people were cowarding in theaters over plastic costumes. lol :)
But why send a messenger at all? Why did Allah need goat herders? Why not directly communicate the message in a completely objective and unambiguous way? Surely such a feat isn't beyond his powers!
In fact one of the verses in the qur'an speaks of this, the people of noah asked him why are you not an angel or something other than like one of ourselves. And they cited the same thing saying you are poor, your followers are poor, etc.. and they thought highly of themselves.
I'm not sure what that has to do with my question. But ok.
You are a vile vermin.
Am I now? Oh well. I'm sure it's exactly how Allah willed me to be. Who am I to go against him? ::)
A hundred years ago the age of consent in delaware US was 7. The average age of consent was 10 years of age. People were more matured and married earlier. They were not perverts like yourself who can't seem to speak without penis in a sentence.
So it was "right" back them for a middle-aged man to marry a 10 year old, but, for some reason, it's not "right" anymore. Really? So you believe that what is "right" and "wrong" changes, and what was once right is now wrong? How does that jive with the teachings for the Qur'an?
The rest was just typical atheist sarcasm, cynicism and insults. Nothing useful.
Hey. I save the useful stuff for my paying customers.
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I never said you prayed to it. I said "Don't you pray towards the Kaaba?" - see? towards. Perhaps I'm not quite as ignorant as you think!
There is no idolatry in islam. Like I said islam is the only true absolute monotheistic religion on the earth. All others are tainted in some way or another.
But why pray in any particular direction at all? What's the reasoning behind that?
Unity. We muslims pray together in one direction.
Please provide substantive evidence for this unsupported assertion.
We have in the absolute the religion preserved. The same cannot be said about other religions.
The qur'an is as it was revealed.
The speech, actions of muhammad (pbuh) are recorded. His sayings, his teachings. Likewise of his companions.
They are verified via what is called hadith science. Muhammad's biography and details of his life are so numerous and intricate that there is no man on this planet that has as much written about him or witnessed about him by literally tens of thousands of people.
So when certain people deviate from islam, it is easy to go back to the qur'an and hadith to identify where they error.
I'm asking why a supposedly all-powerful being needed a scribe and didn't directly manifest himself so as to forever erase all doubt about his existence, his message and his demands.
He gave us free choice and this life as a test. If he wanted to he could have. Instead he gave us free choice. The angels absolutely obey GOd and do not question his authority. We on the other hand are free to roam, but warned, and thus tested to see how we respond.
We can chose to follow desires and be lower than the animals, or use our intellect and be above the angels. Chosing is far more worthy than if you are programmed to be a robot like the angels.
If you are interested I will show you the verses in response to this question of yours.
The problem isn't seeing. The problem is believing. See what I did there? With the seeing, and the believing and the wordplay? ;D
Yet as in the qur'an God says, they are not blind by eyesight but blind by hearts.
You chose to believe what you want to believe. You are given that choice.
Of course I would. Unlike you I don't look around and see mysteries and unknowable supernatural powers at work. If a mountain rose above me, I would try to consider possible natural explanations, before I jumped to the conclusion that it's something supernatural at work.
Hence my answer to you, even if you were given miracles, you would still not believe, just as the people of the past had manifest miracles in front of them and they just called it magic or illusion and basically denied it and disbelieved even more.
But why send a messenger at all? Why did Allah need goat herders? Why not directly communicate the message in a completely objective and unambiguous way? Surely such a feat isn't beyond his powers!
To test people yet again. Again if you can't grasp the universe in front of you in your mind. Do you think you can grasp the creator of it all?
The jews asked to see Allah, as they disbelieved despite many signs given through Moses. They had a mountain shutter in front of them and they all died, then they were revived. Yet after being revived they still didnt' believe.
So it was "right" back them for a middle-aged man to marry a 10 year old, but, for some reason, it's not "right" anymore. Really? So you believe that what is "right" and "wrong" changes, and what was once right is now wrong? How does that jive with the teachings for the Qur'an?
Islam has set a standard. That anyone who reaches puberty should marry as soon as they can. As we all have sexual desire. It is western society that artificially sets high up numbers beyond puberty. Like that case of the football team and american teacher. She had orgies with football players while her husband was abroad as a soldier. She gets jail time because they were ALMOST 18 but not quite 18. While they get away with it and get a suspension. In either case she was a whore and they were losers... yet this artificial number sets it all.
Yes, 100 years ago in america people were marrying and having sex 10 on up on average. 7 being delaware.
People had goals and purpose before from birth. While today they are busy being trained from a young age to be of a mentality that 'we must have fun' and trained into being blind consumers, playing playstation, barbies and then glorifying themselves in teen years and then clubbing and whoring around as 'adolescents'/young adults. Then MAYBE settling when they are 30+ then maybe having children.
People in the past were trained for survival in life from the get go, male and female. People were leaders, scholars, soldiers, generals, kings, rulers, straight from while in their teens. Able to take care of themselves, their families and large groups of people. Today most teens can barely wipe their own ass without whining to their parents about something.
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There is no idolatry in islam. Like I said islam is the only true absolute monotheistic religion on the earth. All others are tainted in some way or another.
Really? You can speak about all other religions? Even Pastafarianism? Or that religion that the crazy old man in apartment 7-G is busy writing a book about?
Unity. We muslims pray together in one direction.
I'll grant you that's an inventive answer. I don't know if I buy it, but it's inventive?
We have in the absolute the religion preserved. The same cannot be said about other religions.
There you go again speaking about other religions...
The qur'an is as it was revealed.
More proof please!
The speech, actions of muhammad (pbuh) are recorded. His sayings, his teachings. Likewise of his companions.
The speech, actions, sayings and "teachings" of Snooki are also recorded...
They are verified via what is called hadith science. Muhammad's biography and details of his life are so numerous and intricate that there is no man on this planet that has as much written about him or witnessed about him by literally tens of thousands of people.
As I explained to you before chains of trust, similar to the ones employed by hadith "science" are notoriously unreliable.
So when certain people deviate from islam, it is easy to go back to the qur'an and hadith to identify where they error.
Before or after they're killed?
He gave us free choice and this life as a test. If he wanted to he could have. Instead he gave us free choice. The angels absolutely obey GOd and do not question his authority. We on the other hand are free to roam, but warned, and thus tested to see how we respond.
Ah yeah... free choice (a.k.a. free will). If you have free choice then your God isn't omniscient. If you don't, then your God isn't omnipotent. And as for the "testing" why would an all-knowing God need to test us?
We can chose to follow desires and be lower than the animals, or use our intellect and be above the angels. Chosing is far more worthy than if you are programmed to be a robot like the angels.
Bifurcation fallacy. Besides, my intellect tells me the teachings of Islam are ridiculous on their face.
If you are interested I will show you the verses in response to this question of yours.
Sure, that'll be fun.
Yet as in the qur'an God says, they are not blind by eyesight but blind by hearts.
The heart is a pump. It can't see, think of feel. Words have meaning. Use them accurately.
You chose to believe what you want to believe. You are given that choice.
Well, thanks.
Hence my answer to you, even if you were given miracles, you would still not believe, just as the people of the past had manifest miracles in front of them and they just called it magic or illusion and basically denied it and disbelieved even more.
So what you are saying is that your God cannot make a miracle so miraculous that it will convince a skeptic... he sounds might powerful.
To test people yet again. Again if you can't grasp the universe in front of you in your mind. Do you think you can grasp the creator of it all?
Assumes facts not in evidence. Does the Universe require a creator? Can you prove this requirement?
The jews asked to see Allah, as they disbelieved despite many signs given through Moses. They had a mountain shutter in front of them and they all died, then they were revived. Yet after being revived they still didnt' believe.
So again, the answer is that your God, no matter how hard he tries, can't convince people he exists...
Islam has set a standard.
Who cares about the "standards" set by Islam? Either pedophilia is right or pedophilia is wrong, regardless of the standards that Islam has.
That anyone who reaches puberty should marry as soon as they can. As we all have sexual desire.
Some standard...
It is western society that artificially sets high up numbers beyond puberty.
Sounds
Like that case of the football team and american teacher. She had orgies with football players while her husband was abroad as a soldier. She gets jail time because they were ALMOST 18 but not quite 18. While they get away with it and get a suspension. In either case she was a whore and they were losers... yet this artificial number sets it all.
Yes, 100 years ago in america people were marrying and having sex 10 on up on average. 7 being delaware.
And they also had slaves. Is that a justification to have slaves and sex with 7 year-olds today?
People had goals and purpose before from birth. While today they are busy being trained from a young age to be of a mentality that 'we must have fun' and trained into being blind consumers, playing playstation, barbies and then glorifying themselves in teen years and then clubbing and whoring around as 'adolescents'/young adults. Then MAYBE settling when they are 30+ then maybe having children.
It's their life after all, what's it to you?
People in the past were trained for survival in life from the get go, male and female.
Yes, it's such a horrible, horrible thing that we have managed to elevate our standard sufficiently to no longer have to fight for our survival...
People were leaders, scholars, soldiers, generals, kings, rulers, straight from while in their teens. Able to take care of themselves, their families and large groups of people.
And dying of dysentery, doing manual labor 16 hour days and being, largely, at the mercy of nature... but yes, they took care of themselves just fine.
Today most teens can barely wipe their own ass without whining to their parents about something.
I'm sure Islam has a Surah on the subject... :)
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well considering how much bs cynicism comments you make instead of any real response or question, have a nice day. You prove atheists are not worth talking to much less debating. You have nothing except your own self glorifying while everyone else must be wrong because believing in God is not rational while atheists are CLEARLY rational.
Pastafarianism is a moronic atheist pseudo-religion out of wait for it... yet again cynicism and jest. You doodled an idol and made some false beliefs. Take a few seconds to think why I will realize that is a bs man made false religion and why you are just another proud idiotic idolator even if in jest.
Yes other religions, I can talk all day about it because Ive taken my time to read and learn about them. You prove my point by citing fake religions even that much more.
God has revealed to prophets and messengers who were consistent in their message. Not frauds that want something in return. Even right after islam there were arab tribes that try to claim they had 'prophets', they were nothing but frauds and were exposed for it.
Any of these modern wanabe prophets, same thing. Whether relating to islam or not. Such as nation of islam. They abuse the name islam yet have nothing to do with it. They claim God came in human form. One would wonder if they EVER read a quran.
Sikhism, came about in the 15th century. They basically took from islam and took from hinduism, wiped out traces linking back to islam and certain responsibilities and voila. They claim they have a monotheistic religion. They dont believe in the angels, heaven/hell, divine revelation books, prophets/messengers and suddenly start 'from scratch'. Yes this is therefore a man made religion.
God's messengers are consistent to the original message of all past prophets and messengers. Not those that suddenly take a highway exit and try to wipe down traces from past revelations. Or those that out of the blue claiming something about themselves and prophecies that never come to pass.
Muhammad (pbuh)'s prophecies have come to pass and more.
On the other hand fraud's like nostrodamus that dealt with demons and writing cryptic 'prophecies' that can or cannot come true is a different matter all together. Frauds
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The face of Evil
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Its interesting. The difference in when a person such as a muslim learns about Muhammad (pbuh) and when a non muslim spreads rumors and hate. Such a drastic contrast. One is light, while the other is filth out of ignorant mouths.
Yet do you benefit me no? Do you benefit yourself? No again. Yet if you were to hear about Islam's teachings you would benefit as I benefit.
Instead your mind is corrupted with perverse and vile thoughts. If you want to see the face of evil, look in the mirror and you will find it. Likewise whoever drew that fradulent and disgusting drawing they should look in the mirror to find evil.
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well considering how much bs cynicism comments you make instead of any real response or question, have a nice day.
Thanks, and you too. As for the cynicism, well, what do you really expect? After all, I've had these conversations many times before. The people I've had them with have changed, their particular beliefs have changed, but at their core, their arguments have all been the same.
You prove atheists are not worth talking to much less debating. You have nothing except your own self glorifying while everyone else must be wrong because believing in God is not rational while atheists are CLEARLY rational.
Can you rationally define what the term "God" means? If you can't, then your belief, such as it is, is prima facie irrational.
Pastafarianism is a moronic atheist pseudo-religion out of wait for it... yet again cynicism and jest. You doodled an idol and made some false beliefs. Take a few seconds to think why I will realize that is a bs man made false religion and why you are just another proud idiotic idolator even if in jest.
No more false than your "bs man made false religion." And isn't that the bottom line? You cannot dispute this claim without having to resort to (a) your religion itself or (b) vigorous hand-waving. But neither option is rational.
Yes other religions, I can talk all day about it because Ive taken my time to read and learn about them. You prove my point by citing fake religions even that much more.
My point was that you claim that only your particular religion is truly monotheistic. That's a bogus claim on its face. You cannot know every religion out there, yet you make grand proclamations. And on top of that, you don't tell us why a monotheistic religion is inherently better than a polytheistic one. You just frantically wave your arms about, like some kind of Jedi.
God has revealed to prophets and messengers who were consistent in their message. Not frauds that want something in return. Even right after islam there were arab tribes that try to claim they had 'prophets', they were nothing but frauds and were exposed for it.
Those "prophets" couldn't even provide a rational, consistent definition of the term "god". Why should we care what they say about an unknowable term?
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"Say, 'He is Allah, the One;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
And there is nothing that can be compared to Him."
Qur'an 112:1-4
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im guessing the answer to your question has something to do with Obama being to blame
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"Say, 'He is Allah, the One;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
And there is nothing that can be compared to Him."
Qur'an 112:1-4
There may be nothing that can be compared to him, but is there anything that actually proves that the Qur'an is accurate and that Allah exists?
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im guessing the answer to your question has something to do with Obama being to blame
I have avoid idea. Ill shit and piss in the toilet after eating Jamaican ox tale then take a picture and call it "piss Obama"
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There may be nothing that can be compared to him, but is there anything that actually proves that the Qur'an is accurate and that Allah exists?
What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.
Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?
The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all. God's proof is all around us in creation. But you do not see things the way I do. I've already had these sorts of debates. To me the more science i learn, the more knowledge i acquire the more it increases my faith. Yet an atheist will utter the more he 'learns' the more science he knows, the less he believes. We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us. Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.
If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.
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What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.
Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?
The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all. God's proof is all around us in creation. But you do not see things the way I do. I've already had these sorts of debates. To me the more science i learn, the more knowledge i acquire the more it increases my faith. Yet an atheist will utter the more he 'learns' the more science he knows, the less he believes. We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us. Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.
If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.
I'm a dullard so please indulge me. If I understand correctly then your answer is "something" that is not just the 5 senses, philosophy and creation?
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What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.
Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?
The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all. God's proof is all around us in creation. But you do not see things the way I do. I've already had these sorts of debates. To me the more science i learn, the more knowledge i acquire the more it increases my faith. Yet an atheist will utter the more he 'learns' the more science he knows, the less he believes. We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us. Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.
If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.
Mohamed just borrowed religious ideas from Christianity and the Jews he encountered in his travels and then modified the stories for an Arabic audience.
It's as simple as that.
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I'm a dullard so please indulge me. If I understand correctly then your answer is "something" that is not just the 5 senses, philosophy and creation?
If you want to talk about this with these atheists we can create a seperate thread.
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What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.
No. I am asking for a rational, consistent definition of the term "god". After we establish that, we can talk about what it would take to prove. As for proof being the five senses, no, that's really not the case; for example, I am convinced that quantum particles exist, having never touched, smelled, seen, heard or tasted them.
Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?
That's not quite the same thing, is it? It's an interesting topic, and one that appeals to the mathematician in me. We could discuss if you're so inclined.
The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all.
No. I just don't fall for arguments "first believe that the Qur'an is the word of God and then I will use it to prove that God exists." Because that doesn't constitute proof.
God's proof is all around us in creation.
That's a logical fallacy known as begging the question. You claim that "creation" is proof but really, all you've done is presuppose a creator and a creation.
But you do not see things the way I do.
You're right, and that's why, unlike you, I don't fall for logically fallacious arguments like the one above.
We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us.
No, I don't think we both are. One is using his brain and the other is using his "magical supernatural technicolor feeling organ".
Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.
That's really not an accurate description. Here, let me try: You choose to believe in God, an unknowable, supernatural being and claim that it's the ultimate and unchanging truth. I choose to rationally accept a theory, having examined the evidence for and against it, and remain open to alternative theories, should this not fit the observable facts.
If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.
Before we got into a philosophical rational debate about God, you'd have to provide an accurate, rational, consistent and logical definition of the term "God". And something tells me that you can't.
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I just love the attitude of atheists how they feel superior in knowledge to those that believe in God :) So amusing.
Man of steel when I said point by point I mean verse by verse :) Not sentence by sentence. In real life, this would be impossible. As you'd say a word and the other guy would say aonther word over you. Nothing would be acomplished. Kinda tiring and lame :)
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I just love the attitude of atheists how they feel superior in knowledge to those that believe in God :) So amusing.
Man of steel when I said point by point I mean verse by verse :) Not sentence by sentence. In real life, this would be impossible. As you'd say a word and the other guy would say aonther word over you. Nothing would be acomplished. Kinda tiring and lame :)
verse by verse....now that is different.