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Author Topic: Why is "Piss Christ" ok and not 'Piss Mohamed" ? ? ? ?  (Read 3230 times)
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2012, 10:02:36 PM »


Sorry friend, but far greater theologians than you or I will ever be have agreed upon this information and reconciled your "issues".    


Theologians agree on precious little -- hence the endless variations of Christianity throughout history and those that will no doubt be spawned in the future -- but even if they do agree, what is agreed upon does not thereby become truth. In any case, it would be pretty easy to find a theologian who disagrees with your theologians, rendering your appeal to authority moot. Finally, such a means of reasoning is fallacious: an expert's (I use the word loosely here, as I've never been able to see how theologians aren't quasi-philosophers, quasi-scientists who are awful at both) opinion is only valuable to the extent that there is a good argument behind it, not because the expert is renowned or smarter than you or I.


So God does not know? God has bipolar disorder here talking about himself to himself but not himself?


I'm glad that you have some rational faculty and are able to apply it in a stringent criticism of ideas -- in this case, to the man (of steel)'s stated reasons for becoming an acolyte and mental serf to a particular set of memes (ideas) commonly called Christianity. I wonder, however, whether you've never considered doing the same for your own beliefs. What exactly is different about the reasoning behind Islamic memes that has you convinced? Have you submitted Islam to the withering criticism you've applied to Christianity? Have you ever considered the possibility that you are wrong and are Man of Steel's Islamic counterpart?


Actually it would make more sense that God came down in human form and lived a human life so we couldn't blame him for making life so hard, this way he can say he went through it as well makes ten times more sense then an arrogant power thirsty imag you implore






Good to have you back!
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2012, 02:13:03 PM »

Quote
I'm glad that you have some rational faculty and are able to apply it in a stringent criticism of ideas -- in this case, to the man (of steel)'s stated reasons for becoming an acolyte and mental serf to a particular set of memes (ideas) commonly called Christianity. I wonder, however, whether you've never considered doing the same for your own beliefs. What exactly is different about the reasoning behind Islamic memes that has you convinced? Have you submitted Islam to the withering criticism you've applied to Christianity? Have you ever considered the possibility that you are wrong and are Man of Steel's Islamic counterpart?

You do not accept islam blindly. The concept of 'faith' in christianity is that of blindness. The concept of faith in islam is that of rational acceptance. Everything has a reason and explanation although we primarily obey God, but everything that is told to us can be explained and come to a conclusion through rational.

With christianity everything is about mere emotional rhetoric. That is why europeans have developed this eurocentric mentality of religion that all religions are like the church/christianity and that rational cannot be mended with religion.

Islam proved the contrary throughout history as islam flourished alongside sciences, philosophy, and all othe rsorts of works.

The qur'an always enocurages us to think, it literally says in so many verse "for those that think.

So yes I went through a long strenous process, I had to learn about christianity and other religions before I embraced islam. My own experience.
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2012, 04:49:19 PM »

Theologians agree on precious little -- hence the endless variations of Christianity throughout history and those that will no doubt be spawned in the future -- but even if they do agree, what is agreed upon does not thereby become truth. In any case, it would be pretty easy to find a theologian who disagrees with your theologians, rendering your appeal to authority moot. Finally, such a means of reasoning is fallacious: an expert's (I use the word loosely here, as I've never been able to see how theologians aren't quasi-philosophers, quasi-scientists who are awful at both) opinion is only valuable to the extent that there is a good argument behind it, not because the expert is renowned or smarter than you or I.

I'm glad that you have some rational faculty and are able to apply it in a stringent criticism of ideas -- in this case, to the man (of steel)'s stated reasons for becoming an acolyte and mental serf to a particular set of memes (ideas) commonly called Christianity. I wonder, however, whether you've never considered doing the same for your own beliefs. What exactly is different about the reasoning behind Islamic memes that has you convinced? Have you submitted Islam to the withering criticism you've applied to Christianity? Have you ever considered the possibility that you are wrong and are Man of Steel's Islamic counterpart?



Good to have you back!
Hey syntax you won't believe this but that repetitive replay image made me laugh so hard, actually for like 10 minutes, lol,...  I don't why but that was funny as hell,.    Grin
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2012, 05:03:16 PM »

The concept of faith in islam is that of rational acceptance.

Roll Eyes

So yes I went through a long strenous process, I had to learn about christianity and other religions before I embraced islam. My own experience.

May I ask which were the "other religions" you mention, where you got your information about them and what you liked or disliked about them.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2012, 05:21:36 PM »

Islam is the only absolute monotheistic religion. All the others are tainted with some form of idolatry. All have been tampered with and adultered by men. Except Islam. Islam unlike any other religion has itself preserved.

The qur'an is preserved which is the direct revelation from God and his messenger.

The messenger's life and the life of his companions and those that followed is preserved in utmots detail. There is not a person in history who has his life as preserved in detail about everything than Muhammad (pbuh) has. The witnesses around him whether muslim or non muslim number in the tens of thousands. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand for instance in christianity we only hear of him being born, at the temple as a child, 33, then gone. That's it. And not in detail. Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions on the other hand we have every intimate detail possible. Preserved and authenticated via hadi'th science. An intricate system of chains of narrators, validity of narrators, credibility of narrators, etc... that goes into depth when evaluating what is true or not true. Basically no different than today referencing scholarly works in university when writing a paper, except it goes a few steps deeper. Even if a person lied once, or was sinful their statements would be unacceptable as true. It is quite interesting albeit a bit complex espceially for a non muslim to understand.

I literally went through many stages but I always had this intrinsic belief in God, it was not forced upon me. I happen to be a person that loves reading and writing and I made sure to use my time for it when I was younger. I am also a very introspective person. I like to observe around me.

I did not only read about religion. I read with a passion history, recent, modern, ancient.. i loved reading about ancient civlizations too, incaa, aztecs, mayan, summerians, babylonians, persians, egyptians, chinese, indian, european, etc...

I loved science, especially physics and space... then took an interest in understanding biology, especially human anatomy and physiology.. all just as a hobby.. and curiosity. I love science..

Also loved philosophy... and took advantage of paying attention in school... all forms of it... Aristotlean, Platonic world views...Skepticism... They all had a mental shaping on me that made me deeply think about myself, others and all around us, existence itself. The one thing that is so simple yet real... we think therefore we are. It's quite powerful... There is order and purpose and we are not an accident.

And finally yes, I read about all the world religions i could come across, east and west. Of course I read into christianity, judaism.. the various sects of christianity. Along the way I even read about pagans, paganism, neopaganism, witchcraft (yeah i kid u not..), ancient african religions, roman and greek pagan religions, egyptian pagan religions, i was also very intrigued with zoroastrianism which is older than judaism or christianity.. and it also had an impact on me when later studying islam. Of course i studied hinduism, budhism, jainism, a little bit sikhism, a few other offshoot minor religions from hinduism.. confucianism, japanese religions; shinto budhism, zen budhism... and ultimately prior to and post 911 i studied islam.

I was having serious battles wiht my priests and christian teachers about the trinity and bible at the time.. i dweled into studying the bible tha tmuch more because of it... got a hold of apocryphas translated into english.. whatever i could as well

Ironically the one who encouraged me was my philosophy teacher who left the vatican was in the order and was the one to encourage me by saying indeed the trinity is a lie and God is one. I also had a dream in which I saw Jesus inj white long robes... alhtough his face not visible but somehow i 'felt it'... in which I was told God is one. Although most people except those with faith would believe in this from me but hey im sharing it..

The one verse that hit me in the quran was the one that speaks about past people and how they were before us and they were given more power and wealth than us yet today all tha tremains are their ruins. And indeed... people are in awe of these civilizations yet they were destroyed. And they wer mostly idolators.

I can't recall off by head now what else but .. i've went through reading about all possibilities and all religions...

I came to conclude that i have found commonalities in all.. and those are in all religions... but where they differed was quite clear human error.. and that God would not misguide us.. but that men do. Especially when they contradict themselves.

In Islam I found no contradictions except purity and certainty. It reaffirms all that was and finalizes it as a seal.
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2012, 06:19:50 PM »

Islam is the only absolute monotheistic religion. All the others are tainted with some form of idolatry. All have been tampered with and adultered by men. Except Islam. Islam unlike any other religion has itself preserved.

The qur'an is preserved which is the direct revelation from God and his messenger.

The messenger's life and the life of his companions and those that followed is preserved in utmots detail. There is not a person in history who has his life as preserved in detail about everything than Muhammad (pbuh) has. The witnesses around him whether muslim or non muslim number in the tens of thousands. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand for instance in christianity we only hear of him being born, at the temple as a child, 33, then gone. That's it. And not in detail. Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions on the other hand we have every intimate detail possible. Preserved and authenticated via hadi'th science. An intricate system of chains of narrators, validity of narrators, credibility of narrators, etc... that goes into depth when evaluating what is true or not true. Basically no different than today referencing scholarly works in university when writing a paper, except it goes a few steps deeper. Even if a person lied once, or was sinful their statements would be unacceptable as true. It is quite interesting albeit a bit complex espceially for a non muslim to understand.

I literally went through many stages but I always had this intrinsic belief in God, it was not forced upon me. I happen to be a person that loves reading and writing and I made sure to use my time for it when I was younger. I am also a very introspective person. I like to observe around me.

I did not only read about religion. I read with a passion history, recent, modern, ancient.. i loved reading about ancient civlizations too, incaa, aztecs, mayan, summerians, babylonians, persians, egyptians, chinese, indian, european, etc...

I loved science, especially physics and space... then took an interest in understanding biology, especially human anatomy and physiology.. all just as a hobby.. and curiosity. I love science..

Also loved philosophy... and took advantage of paying attention in school... all forms of it... Aristotlean, Platonic world views...Skepticism... They all had a mental shaping on me that made me deeply think about myself, others and all around us, existence itself. The one thing that is so simple yet real... we think therefore we are. It's quite powerful... There is order and purpose and we are not an accident.

And finally yes, I read about all the world religions i could come across, east and west. Of course I read into christianity, judaism.. the various sects of christianity. Along the way I even read about pagans, paganism, neopaganism, witchcraft (yeah i kid u not..), ancient african religions, roman and greek pagan religions, egyptian pagan religions, i was also very intrigued with zoroastrianism which is older than judaism or christianity.. and it also had an impact on me when later studying islam. Of course i studied hinduism, budhism, jainism, a little bit sikhism, a few other offshoot minor religions from hinduism.. confucianism, japanese religions; shinto budhism, zen budhism... and ultimately prior to and post 911 i studied islam.

I was having serious battles wiht my priests and christian teachers about the trinity and bible at the time.. i dweled into studying the bible tha tmuch more because of it... got a hold of apocryphas translated into english.. whatever i could as well

Ironically the one who encouraged me was my philosophy teacher who left the vatican was in the order and was the one to encourage me by saying indeed the trinity is a lie and God is one. I also had a dream in which I saw Jesus inj white long robes... alhtough his face not visible but somehow i 'felt it'... in which I was told God is one. Although most people except those with faith would believe in this from me but hey im sharing it..

The one verse that hit me in the quran was the one that speaks about past people and how they were before us and they were given more power and wealth than us yet today all tha tremains are their ruins. And indeed... people are in awe of these civilizations yet they were destroyed. And they wer mostly idolators.

I can't recall off by head now what else but .. i've went through reading about all possibilities and all religions...

I came to conclude that i have found commonalities in all.. and those are in all religions... but where they differed was quite clear human error.. and that God would not misguide us.. but that men do. Especially when they contradict themselves.

In Islam I found no contradictions except purity and certainty. It reaffirms all that was and finalizes it as a seal.
Not true... Sikhism has none of that either... So that's not true.
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« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2012, 06:27:07 PM »

You do not accept islam blindly.

You just interpret it blindly... Grin

The concept of faith in islam is that of rational acceptance.

I don't think "rational acceptance" means what you think it means.


Islam proved the contrary throughout history as islam flourished alongside sciences, philosophy, and all othe rsorts of works.

The Olympians also flourished alongside sciences, philosophy and all other sorts of works. What does that prove?


The qur'an always enocurages us to think, it literally says in so many verse "for those that think.

And what does your thinking tell you when the Qur'an makes ridiculous assertions like the heavens and earth and everything else being created in six days? (50:38) What does your thinking tell you about the ridiculous statement that your imaginary friend "made the earth as a fixed abode" (27:16). I could go on, but I don't want you to overthink, would we?


So yes I went through a long strenous process, I had to learn about christianity and other religions before I embraced islam. My own experience.

Yes, I'm sure that learning how to stop using your eight brain cells was a long and arduous process...


Islam is the only absolute monotheistic religion.

And Pastafarianism is the only absolutely pastalicious religion. So?


All the others are tainted with some form of idolatry. All have been tampered with and adultered by men. Except Islam. Islam unlike any other religion has itself preserved.

Islam is just as tainted by idolatry as every other religion out there. Don't you pray towards the Kaaba? And it's been as "tampered and adultered" by men at least as much as any other religion out there. The facts speak for themselves.


The qur'an is preserved which is the direct revelation from God and his messenger.

Objection. Assumes facts no in evidence. First you have to define God, prove that it exists, prove that he intended to send a message, that the messenger is question is the medium through which the message was delivered, that the message has not been corrupted, and that the message is still valid today. In other words, you have a lot of work to do. Off you go.

If you aren't feeling up to that, perhaps you'll answer a single question for us: why did your almighty imaginary friend need a messenger? Why couldn't he make, say, the stars all line up to spell his name? That would be a much more powerful message that sending a goat herder.


The messenger's life and the life of his companions and those that followed is preserved in utmots detail.

Even if this were true, what does it prove? Nothing, that's what. Oh, and did you enjoy all those details about how he took the virginity of his child-bride with his prophetic penis? Why, perhaps he even told her that "I'm about to prophesize, so swallow, don't spit." Such a man!


There is not a person in history who has his life as preserved in detail about everything than Muhammad (pbuh) has.

That's not true. You can get more information about random people on Facebook. And pictures to boot!


Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions on the other hand we have every intimate detail possible.

Really? You have intimate details about his bowel movements?


An intricate system of chains of narrators, validity of narrators, credibility of narrators, etc... that goes into depth when evaluating what is true or not true. Basically no different than today referencing scholarly works in university when writing a paper, except it goes a few steps deeper. Even if a person lied once, or was sinful their statements would be unacceptable as true. It is quite interesting albeit a bit complex espceially for a non muslim to understand.

It's quite clear you don't know much about security. Chains of trust of the type you describe are notoriously weak, and for good reason...


I literally went through many stages but I always had this intrinsic belief in God

Because you're stupid and don't want to deal with the world as it is, but with the world as you wish it to be.


I happen to be a person that loves reading and writing and I made sure to use my time for it when I was younger. I am also a very introspective person. I like to observe around me.

I think you copy-pasted your craigslist "personal" ad by mistake there. 


I love science and knowledge... blah blah blah... I searched long and hard... blah blah blah... and then the truth came to me a in a dream... blah blah blah.

 Roll Eyes


In Islam I found no contradictions except purity and certainty. It reaffirms all that was and finalizes it as a seal.

It's hard to find what you aren't looking for.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2012, 01:19:30 PM »

Islam is just as tainted by idolatry as every other religion out there. Don't you pray towards the Kaaba? And it's been as "tampered and adultered" by men at least as much as any other religion out there. The facts speak for themselves.

No actually, and that shows your ignorance. Secondly we pray towards the kaba. Yes, not to the kabba, or any idol or object. It is merely a pointer for all muslims to pray united in one direction. Everything islam talks about over and over again is to worship the creator not the creation. That is the fundemental teaching of Islam.

Secondly no Islam has not been tampered with or adultered. Those that have, are known as sects and Muhammad (pbuh) predicted this in one hadith where he says only the one on my path and the path of my companions will be successful/enter heaven. The others will be in the hellfire. Why? Because they have swayed from islam and created their own way.

Islam is one and Muhammad (pbuh) was one, and the quran is one, and God almighty is one and only. Everything about Islam has been preserved unlike any other religions.

Quote
Objection. Assumes facts no in evidence. First you have to define God, prove that it exists, prove that he intended to send a message, that the messenger is question is the medium through which the message was delivered, that the message has not been corrupted, and that the message is still valid today. In other words, you have a lot of work to do. Off you go.

You are defining what God must do? You are rejecting what God revealed. A paradox?

If your primitive senses blinded you from that which you dont know or will ever know, will it make it any less true? You see yourself as an 'animal' yet you argue with arrogance and suppose persistent reason. Such ungratefulness and irony. Irony in the sense that you are able to think, yet fail to really see.

Quote
If you aren't feeling up to that, perhaps you'll answer a single question for us: why did your almighty imaginary friend need a messenger? Why couldn't he make, say, the stars all line up to spell his name? That would be a much more powerful message that sending a goat herder.

Pretty typical atheist response. Just as the people of the past asked for miracles, and even when the miracles were shown to them they still disbelieved. Even if you had a mountain rise above you, you would disbelieve and try to explain it as a 'natural phenomena'.

Secondly, God sent messengers from amongst themselves. If an 'alien' showed up you'd piss your pants especially in those times. Just 50 years ago people were cowarding in theaters over plastic costumes. lol Smiley

In fact one of the verses in the qur'an speaks of this, the people of noah asked him why are you not an angel or something other than like one of ourselves. And they cited the same thing saying you are poor, your followers are poor, etc.. and they thought highly of themselves.

Quote
Even if this were true, what does it prove? Nothing, that's what. Oh, and did you enjoy all those details about how he took the virginity of his child-bride with his prophetic penis? Why, perhaps he even told her that "I'm about to prophesize, so swallow, don't spit." Such a man!

You are a vile vermin. A hundred years ago the age of consent in delaware US was 7. The average age of consent was 10 years of age. People were more matured and married earlier. They were not perverts like yourself who can't seem to speak without penis in a sentence.

Quote
Insults

The rest was just typical atheist sarcasm, cynicism and insults. Nothing useful.
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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2012, 09:42:53 PM »

No actually, and that shows your ignorance.

It does?


Secondly we pray towards the kaba. Yes, not to the kabba, or any idol or object.

I never said you prayed to it. I said "Don't you pray towards the Kaaba?" - see? towards. Perhaps I'm not quite as ignorant as you think!


It is merely a pointer for all muslims to pray united in one direction. Everything islam talks about over and over again is to worship the creator not the creation. That is the fundemental teaching of Islam.

But why pray in any particular direction at all? What's the reasoning behind that?


Secondly no Islam has not been tampered with or adultered.

Please provide substantive evidence for this unsupported assertion.


Those that have, are known as sects and Muhammad (pbuh) predicted this in one hadith where he says only the one on my path and the path of my companions will be successful/enter heaven. The others will be in the hellfire. Why? Because they have swayed from islam and created their own way.

The Bible also says similar things. They're just as unconvincing as the nonsense in your grimoire.


Islam is one and Muhammad (pbuh) was one, and the quran is one, and God almighty is one and only. Everything about Islam has been preserved unlike any other religions.

You sound like Billy Mays trying to sell Oxy-Clean. If I wanted infomercials, I'd tune to late-night TV.


You are defining what God must do? You are rejecting what God revealed. A paradox?

I'm asking why a supposedly all-powerful being needed a scribe and didn't directly manifest himself so as to forever erase all doubt about his existence, his message and his demands.


If your primitive senses blinded you from that which you dont know or will ever know, will it make it any less true? You see yourself as an 'animal' yet you argue with arrogance and suppose persistent reason. Such ungratefulness and irony. Irony in the sense that you are able to think, yet fail to really see.

The problem isn't seeing. The problem is believing. See what I did there? With the seeing, and the believing and the wordplay? Grin


Pretty typical atheist response. Just as the people of the past asked for miracles, and even when the miracles were shown to them they still disbelieved. Even if you had a mountain rise above you, you would disbelieve and try to explain it as a 'natural phenomena'.

Of course I would. Unlike you I don't look around and see mysteries and unknowable supernatural powers at work. If a mountain rose above me, I would try to consider possible natural explanations, before I jumped to the conclusion that it's something supernatural at work.


Secondly, God sent messengers from amongst themselves. If an 'alien' showed up you'd piss your pants especially in those times. Just 50 years ago people were cowarding in theaters over plastic costumes. lol Smiley

But why send a messenger at all? Why did Allah need goat herders? Why not directly communicate the message in a completely objective and unambiguous way? Surely such a feat isn't beyond his powers!


In fact one of the verses in the qur'an speaks of this, the people of noah asked him why are you not an angel or something other than like one of ourselves. And they cited the same thing saying you are poor, your followers are poor, etc.. and they thought highly of themselves.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my question. But ok.


You are a vile vermin.

Am I now? Oh well. I'm sure it's exactly how Allah willed me to be. Who am I to go against him? Roll Eyes

A hundred years ago the age of consent in delaware US was 7. The average age of consent was 10 years of age. People were more matured and married earlier. They were not perverts like yourself who can't seem to speak without penis in a sentence.

So it was "right" back them for a middle-aged man to marry a 10 year old, but, for some reason, it's not "right" anymore. Really? So you believe that what is "right" and "wrong" changes, and what was once right is now wrong? How does that jive with the teachings for the Qur'an?


The rest was just typical atheist sarcasm, cynicism and insults. Nothing useful.

Hey. I save the useful stuff for my paying customers.
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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2012, 10:29:32 PM »

I never said you prayed to it. I said "Don't you pray towards the Kaaba?" - see? towards. Perhaps I'm not quite as ignorant as you think!

There is no idolatry in islam. Like I said islam is the only true absolute monotheistic religion on the earth. All others are tainted in some way or another.

Quote
But why pray in any particular direction at all? What's the reasoning behind that?
Unity. We muslims pray together in one direction.

Quote
Please provide substantive evidence for this unsupported assertion.
We have in the absolute the religion preserved. The same cannot be said about other religions.

The qur'an is as it was revealed.

The speech, actions of muhammad (pbuh) are recorded. His sayings, his teachings. Likewise of his companions.

They are verified via what is called hadith science. Muhammad's biography and details of his life are so numerous and intricate that there is no man on this planet that has as much written about him or witnessed about him by literally tens of thousands of people.

So when certain people deviate from islam, it is easy to go back to the qur'an and hadith to identify where they error.

Quote
I'm asking why a supposedly all-powerful being needed a scribe and didn't directly manifest himself so as to forever erase all doubt about his existence, his message and his demands.

He gave us free choice and this life as a test. If he wanted to he could have. Instead he gave us free choice. The angels absolutely obey GOd and do not question his authority. We on the other hand are free to roam, but warned, and thus tested to see how we respond.

We can chose to follow desires and be lower than the animals, or use our intellect and be above the angels. Chosing is far more worthy than if you are programmed to be a robot like the angels.

If you are interested I will show you the verses in response to this question of yours.

Quote
The problem isn't seeing. The problem is believing. See what I did there? With the seeing, and the believing and the wordplay? Grin

Yet as in the qur'an God says, they are not blind by eyesight but blind by hearts.

You chose to believe what you want to believe. You are given that choice.

Quote
Of course I would. Unlike you I don't look around and see mysteries and unknowable supernatural powers at work. If a mountain rose above me, I would try to consider possible natural explanations, before I jumped to the conclusion that it's something supernatural at work.

Hence my answer to you, even if you were given miracles, you would still not believe, just as the people of the past had manifest miracles in front of them and they just called it magic or illusion and basically denied it and disbelieved even more.

Quote
But why send a messenger at all? Why did Allah need goat herders? Why not directly communicate the message in a completely objective and unambiguous way? Surely such a feat isn't beyond his powers!

To test people yet again. Again if you can't grasp the universe in front of you in your mind. Do you think you can grasp the creator of it all?

The jews asked to see Allah, as they disbelieved despite many signs given through Moses. They had a mountain shutter in front of them and they all died, then they were revived. Yet after being revived they still didnt' believe.

Quote
So it was "right" back them for a middle-aged man to marry a 10 year old, but, for some reason, it's not "right" anymore. Really? So you believe that what is "right" and "wrong" changes, and what was once right is now wrong? How does that jive with the teachings for the Qur'an?

Islam has set a standard. That anyone who reaches puberty should marry as soon as they can. As we all have sexual desire. It is western society that artificially sets high up numbers beyond puberty. Like that case of the football team and american teacher. She had orgies with football players while her husband was abroad as a soldier. She gets jail time because they were ALMOST 18 but not quite 18. While they get away with it and get a suspension. In either case she was a whore and they were losers... yet this artificial number sets it all.

Yes, 100 years ago in america people were marrying and having sex 10 on up on average. 7 being delaware.


People had goals and purpose before from birth. While today they are busy being trained from a young age to be of a mentality that 'we must have fun' and trained into being blind consumers, playing playstation, barbies and then glorifying themselves in teen years and then clubbing and whoring around as 'adolescents'/young adults. Then MAYBE settling when they are 30+ then maybe having children.

People in the past were trained for survival in life from the get go, male and female. People were leaders, scholars, soldiers, generals, kings, rulers, straight from while in their teens. Able to take care of themselves, their families and large groups of people. Today most teens can barely wipe their own ass without whining to their parents about something.
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« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2012, 11:12:23 PM »

There is no idolatry in islam. Like I said islam is the only true absolute monotheistic religion on the earth. All others are tainted in some way or another.

Really? You can speak about all other religions? Even Pastafarianism? Or that religion that the crazy old man in apartment 7-G is busy writing a book about?


Unity. We muslims pray together in one direction.

I'll grant you that's an inventive answer. I don't know if I buy it, but it's inventive?


We have in the absolute the religion preserved. The same cannot be said about other religions.

There you go again speaking about other religions...


The qur'an is as it was revealed.

More proof please!


The speech, actions of muhammad (pbuh) are recorded. His sayings, his teachings. Likewise of his companions.

The speech, actions, sayings and "teachings" of Snooki are also recorded...


They are verified via what is called hadith science. Muhammad's biography and details of his life are so numerous and intricate that there is no man on this planet that has as much written about him or witnessed about him by literally tens of thousands of people.

As I explained to you before chains of trust, similar to the ones employed by hadith "science" are notoriously unreliable.


So when certain people deviate from islam, it is easy to go back to the qur'an and hadith to identify where they error.

Before or after they're killed?


He gave us free choice and this life as a test. If he wanted to he could have. Instead he gave us free choice. The angels absolutely obey GOd and do not question his authority. We on the other hand are free to roam, but warned, and thus tested to see how we respond.

Ah yeah... free choice (a.k.a. free will). If you have free choice then your God isn't omniscient. If you don't, then your God isn't omnipotent. And as for the "testing" why would an all-knowing God need to test us?


We can chose to follow desires and be lower than the animals, or use our intellect and be above the angels. Chosing is far more worthy than if you are programmed to be a robot like the angels.

Bifurcation fallacy. Besides, my intellect tells me the teachings of Islam are ridiculous on their face.


If you are interested I will show you the verses in response to this question of yours.

Sure, that'll be fun.


Yet as in the qur'an God says, they are not blind by eyesight but blind by hearts.

The heart is a pump. It can't see, think of feel. Words have meaning. Use them accurately.


You chose to believe what you want to believe. You are given that choice.

Well, thanks.


Hence my answer to you, even if you were given miracles, you would still not believe, just as the people of the past had manifest miracles in front of them and they just called it magic or illusion and basically denied it and disbelieved even more.

So what you are saying is that your God cannot make a miracle so miraculous that it will convince a skeptic... he sounds might powerful.


To test people yet again. Again if you can't grasp the universe in front of you in your mind. Do you think you can grasp the creator of it all?

Assumes facts not in evidence. Does the Universe require a creator? Can you prove this requirement?


The jews asked to see Allah, as they disbelieved despite many signs given through Moses. They had a mountain shutter in front of them and they all died, then they were revived. Yet after being revived they still didnt' believe.

So again, the answer is that your God, no matter how hard he tries, can't convince people he exists...


Islam has set a standard.

Who cares about the "standards" set by Islam? Either pedophilia is right or pedophilia is wrong, regardless of the standards that Islam has.


That anyone who reaches puberty should marry as soon as they can. As we all have sexual desire.

Some standard...


It is western society that artificially sets high up numbers beyond puberty.

Sounds


Like that case of the football team and american teacher. She had orgies with football players while her husband was abroad as a soldier. She gets jail time because they were ALMOST 18 but not quite 18. While they get away with it and get a suspension. In either case she was a whore and they were losers... yet this artificial number sets it all.


Yes, 100 years ago in america people were marrying and having sex 10 on up on average. 7 being delaware.

And they also had slaves. Is that a justification to have slaves and sex with 7 year-olds today?


People had goals and purpose before from birth. While today they are busy being trained from a young age to be of a mentality that 'we must have fun' and trained into being blind consumers, playing playstation, barbies and then glorifying themselves in teen years and then clubbing and whoring around as 'adolescents'/young adults. Then MAYBE settling when they are 30+ then maybe having children.

It's their life after all, what's it to you?


People in the past were trained for survival in life from the get go, male and female.

Yes, it's such a horrible, horrible thing that we have managed to elevate our standard sufficiently to no longer have to fight for our survival...


People were leaders, scholars, soldiers, generals, kings, rulers, straight from while in their teens. Able to take care of themselves, their families and large groups of people.

And dying of dysentery, doing manual labor 16 hour days and being, largely, at the mercy of nature... but yes, they took care of themselves just fine.


Today most teens can barely wipe their own ass without whining to their parents about something.

I'm sure Islam has a Surah on the subject... Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2012, 08:14:33 AM »

well considering how much bs cynicism comments you make instead of any real response or question, have a nice day. You prove atheists are not worth talking to much less debating. You have nothing except your own self glorifying while everyone else must be wrong because believing in God is not rational while atheists are CLEARLY rational.

Pastafarianism is a moronic atheist pseudo-religion out of wait for it... yet again cynicism and jest. You doodled an idol and made some false beliefs. Take a few seconds to think why I will realize that is a bs man made false religion and why you are just another proud idiotic idolator even if in jest.

Yes other religions, I can talk all day about it because Ive taken my time to read and learn about them. You prove my point by citing fake religions even that much more.

God has revealed to prophets and messengers who were consistent in their message. Not frauds that want something in return. Even right after islam there were arab tribes that try to claim they had 'prophets', they were nothing but frauds and were exposed for it.

Any of these modern wanabe prophets, same thing. Whether relating to islam or not. Such as nation of islam. They abuse the name islam yet have nothing to do with it. They claim God came in human form. One would wonder if they EVER read a quran.

Sikhism, came about in the 15th century. They basically took from islam and took from hinduism, wiped out traces linking back to islam and certain responsibilities and voila. They claim they have a monotheistic religion. They dont believe in the angels, heaven/hell, divine revelation books, prophets/messengers and suddenly start 'from scratch'. Yes this is therefore a man made religion.

God's messengers are consistent to the original message of all past prophets and messengers. Not those that suddenly take a highway exit and try to wipe down traces from past revelations. Or those that out of the blue claiming something about themselves and prophecies that never come to pass.

Muhammad (pbuh)'s prophecies have come to pass and more.

On the other hand fraud's like nostrodamus that dealt with demons and writing cryptic 'prophecies' that can or cannot come true is a different matter all together. Frauds
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2012, 08:24:02 AM »

The face of Evil


* muhammaddevareaux.jpg (95.89 KB, 586x600 - viewed 98 times.)
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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2012, 08:25:03 AM »

Its interesting. The difference in when a person such as a muslim learns about Muhammad (pbuh) and when a non muslim spreads rumors and hate. Such a drastic contrast. One is light, while the other is filth out of ignorant mouths.

Yet do you benefit me no? Do you benefit yourself? No again. Yet if you were to hear about Islam's teachings you would benefit as I benefit.

Instead your mind is corrupted with perverse and vile thoughts. If you want to see the face of evil, look in the mirror and you will find it. Likewise whoever drew that fradulent and disgusting drawing they should look in the mirror to find evil.
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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2012, 08:34:43 AM »

well considering how much bs cynicism comments you make instead of any real response or question, have a nice day.

Thanks, and you too. As for the cynicism, well, what do you really expect? After all, I've had these conversations many times before. The people I've had them with have changed, their particular beliefs have changed, but at their core, their arguments have all been the same.


You prove atheists are not worth talking to much less debating. You have nothing except your own self glorifying while everyone else must be wrong because believing in God is not rational while atheists are CLEARLY rational.

Can you rationally define what the term "God" means? If you can't, then your belief, such as it is, is prima facie irrational.


Pastafarianism is a moronic atheist pseudo-religion out of wait for it... yet again cynicism and jest. You doodled an idol and made some false beliefs. Take a few seconds to think why I will realize that is a bs man made false religion and why you are just another proud idiotic idolator even if in jest.

No more false than your "bs man made false religion." And isn't that the bottom line? You cannot dispute this claim without having to resort to (a) your religion itself or (b) vigorous hand-waving. But neither option is rational.


Yes other religions, I can talk all day about it because Ive taken my time to read and learn about them. You prove my point by citing fake religions even that much more.

My point was that you claim that only your particular religion is truly monotheistic. That's a bogus claim on its face. You cannot know every religion out there, yet you make grand proclamations. And on top of that, you don't tell us why a monotheistic religion is inherently better than a polytheistic one. You just frantically wave your arms about, like some kind of Jedi.


God has revealed to prophets and messengers who were consistent in their message. Not frauds that want something in return. Even right after islam there were arab tribes that try to claim they had 'prophets', they were nothing but frauds and were exposed for it.

Those "prophets" couldn't even provide a rational, consistent definition of the term "god". Why should we care what they say about an unknowable term?

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« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2012, 08:45:59 AM »

"Say, 'He is Allah, the One;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
And there is nothing that can be compared to Him."
Qur'an 112:1-4
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« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2012, 09:06:38 AM »

im guessing the answer to your question has something to do with Obama being to blame
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« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2012, 10:23:03 AM »

"Say, 'He is Allah, the One;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
And there is nothing that can be compared to Him."
Qur'an 112:1-4

There may be nothing that can be compared to him, but is there anything that actually proves that the Qur'an is accurate and that Allah exists?
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« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2012, 10:35:01 AM »

im guessing the answer to your question has something to do with Obama being to blame


I have avoid idea.   Ill shit and piss in the toilet after eating Jamaican ox tale then take a picture and call it "piss Obama"
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« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »

There may be nothing that can be compared to him, but is there anything that actually proves that the Qur'an is accurate and that Allah exists?

What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.

Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?

The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all. God's proof is all around us in creation. But you do not see things the way I do. I've already had these sorts of debates. To me the more science i learn, the more knowledge i acquire the more it increases my faith. Yet an atheist will utter the more he 'learns' the more science he knows, the less he believes. We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us. Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.

If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.
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« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2012, 12:24:05 PM »

What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.

Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?

The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all. God's proof is all around us in creation. But you do not see things the way I do. I've already had these sorts of debates. To me the more science i learn, the more knowledge i acquire the more it increases my faith. Yet an atheist will utter the more he 'learns' the more science he knows, the less he believes. We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us. Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.

If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.

I'm a dullard so please indulge me.  If I understand correctly then your answer is "something" that is not just the 5 senses, philosophy and creation?
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« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2012, 12:24:33 PM »

What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.

Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?

The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all. God's proof is all around us in creation. But you do not see things the way I do. I've already had these sorts of debates. To me the more science i learn, the more knowledge i acquire the more it increases my faith. Yet an atheist will utter the more he 'learns' the more science he knows, the less he believes. We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us. Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.

If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.

Mohamed just borrowed religious ideas from Christianity and the Jews he encountered in his travels and then modified the stories for an Arabic audience.
It's as simple as that.
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« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2012, 12:47:10 PM »

I'm a dullard so please indulge me.  If I understand correctly then your answer is "something" that is not just the 5 senses, philosophy and creation?

If you want to talk about this with these atheists we can create a seperate thread.
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« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2012, 12:59:32 PM »

What you are asking for is to touch, smell, see, hear right in front of you, right now. That's what 'prove' means to you. Your definition of proof is your 5 senses. To me proof, truth, reality is not just the 5 senses.

No. I am asking for a rational, consistent definition of the term "god". After we establish that, we can talk about what it would take to prove. As for proof being the five senses, no, that's really not the case; for example, I am convinced that quantum particles exist, having never touched, smelled, seen, heard or tasted them.


Yet are numbers any less real, are mathematical formules and theorem any less real, until you write them down? What if you never heard of them? Would they be any less real?

That's not quite the same thing, is it? It's an interesting topic, and one that appeals to the mathematician in me. We could discuss if you're so inclined.


The quran is a reaffirmation of all past messengers and prophets. Yet you disbelieve in it all.

No. I just don't fall for arguments "first believe that the Qur'an is the word of God and then I will use it to prove that God exists." Because that doesn't constitute proof.


God's proof is all around us in creation.


That's a logical fallacy known as begging the question. You claim that "creation" is proof but really, all you've done is presuppose a creator and a creation.


But you do not see things the way I do.

You're right, and that's why, unlike you, I don't fall for logically fallacious arguments like the one above.


We are both using the fascilities provided to us and the tools provided to us.

No, I don't think we both are. One is using his brain and the other is using his "magical supernatural technicolor feeling organ".


Yet one choses to believe in God and the other choses to disbelieve in God and since darwinism choses to believe in monkies becoming humans, sea creatures becoming land creatures, all through some mysterious process that no one has truly witnessed and is excused to ever be trully seen because it takes 'hundreds of millions of years' or insert any humangous number of unimaginable years.

That's really not an accurate description. Here, let me try: You choose to believe in God, an unknowable, supernatural being and claim that it's the ultimate and unchanging truth. I choose to rationally accept a theory, having examined the evidence for and against it, and remain open to alternative theories, should this not fit the observable facts.

If we went into a philosophical rational debate about God, you would still disbelieve. We can do that but in another thread. I avoid debating atheists because it resorts to atheists just writing cynical and sarcastic remarks while self glorifying themselves.

Before we got into a philosophical rational debate about God, you'd have to provide an accurate, rational, consistent and logical definition of the term "God". And something tells me that you can't.
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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2012, 01:01:48 PM »

I just love the attitude of atheists how they feel superior in knowledge to those that believe in God Smiley So amusing.

Man of steel when I said point by point I mean verse by verse Smiley Not sentence by sentence. In real life, this would be impossible. As you'd say a word and the other guy would say aonther word over you. Nothing would be acomplished. Kinda tiring and lame Smiley
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