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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: sculpture on August 31, 2009, 10:40:52 AM
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Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol
Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets
Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure
Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so
I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement
Any thoughts?
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-IMO you should save deads for last, because you're essentially interupting the upper back work for deads then coming back to them again. I never understood the point of doing deads anything but last.
-As far as the pre-exahaust thing, no one can tell you for sure that it's good or not-it's simply another way to do it that has to be done to ascertain effectiveness. I'd suggest you try using it this way then try putting pullovers after rows, see which you like better. Or use both ways over a period of months if both arrangements work.
-Anyone read my other posts will know my feelings on BB rows-personally i think there are better options, from one-arm DB rows to T-bars to hammer rows to BB rows while facing down on a bench, thereby further isolating the back and taking the load off the lower back. BB rows for me never did much and are not only tiring but can be tough on the lower back. But if they work for you relative to other options, that's a good reason to continue them.
-Ya chins are tough but it's true that perserverence over time will get the reps up. Pulldowns of different types and hammer pulldowns can be very good alternatives as well.
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barbell rows can be damaging to the back and yes there are safer alternatives indeed. I started to get pain in the past when the weight got heavy and the reps lowish on the exercise and did'nt "feel" much from them hence my wish to position them later in the workout and at a higher rep range.
I ll try for a few weeks and see
As for deads being last i ve always done them early in teh workout otherwise by the time i got to them my grip was greatly weakened a i prefer to do the exercise with both hands in the overhand grip as opposed to staggered.
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As for deads being last i ve always done them early in teh workout otherwise by the time i got to them my grip was greatly weakened a i prefer to do the exercise with both hands in the overhand grip as opposed to staggered.
Up to you, i would just use straps so that it's not a factor and do em last. In fact i'd suggest straps for any lat work.
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I would keep trying to start a lawnmower with no gas in it...
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def dont agree with pump about deads being last but i do agree with getting rid of the bb rows and replacing them with one arm db rows on a bench taking the stress off the lower back especially after deads does plenty for the lower back...imo it is also good to change up the grips on any move every once in a while..i personnally use a different grip for my chins deads and one arm rows...my back workout is the same as yours only no machine pullover im using a db right now...imo its pretty solid...and stick with the chins they get easier and i dont think that any pulldowns are an equal alternative but to each his own...
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Deads first.
Then.....Rows, all sorts of variations, then pulldowns all sorts.
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On this type of back program the Dl should be preformed first, as the ultimate compound movement. If your preforming it last you are not really doing it,or yourself, full justice to the benefits of the exercise.
People overlook the value of bent over BB rows as a great spinal erector developer. Not only for strength but muscular development, in that it can add a thickness to the lumbar region. The whole vertebral column can become stronger, as well as th glutes, hips and hams strongly. Hits the whole chain of important rear muscles.
Pullovers, either straight or bent arm, work well with a lat program. Extra rewards seem to come when they are done before a heavier compound movement, pre-exhaust style. I, and some others I have worked with, have done a set of straight arm pullovers, followed by the bent arm version and lastly BB rows without any rest between sets. Exceptional pump, exceptional results. Have also included pulldowns, rather than BB rows. With chins I just use one pullover version before the actual chin. Good Luck.
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There's absolutely no need to do DLs first unless there's a desire to see that area improve over the rest of the back. In BB circles upper back development is the more important factor plus most seem not to be aware that the lower back's already hit nicely thru squats (an even better and more significant compound exercise than deads will ever be) and various forms of rowing, making DLs less than essential in BB.
Also, as some here realize, deads are bad news for many in terms of injury potential. If they're done at all (vs. relying on indirect exercises or alternatives like hypers that aren't as hard on the back) after the back's warmed up from other things makes more sense.
My 2 cents.
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On this type of back program the Dl should be preformed first, as the ultimate compound movement. If your preforming it last you are not really doing it,or yourself, full justice to the benefits of the exercise.
People overlook the value of bent over BB rows as a great spinal erector developer. Not only for strength but muscular development, in that it can add a thickness to the lumbar region. The whole vertebral column can become stronger, as well as th glutes, hips and hams strongly. Hits the whole chain of important rear muscles.
Pullovers, either straight or bent arm, work well with a lat program. Extra rewards seem to come when they are done before a heavier compound movement, pre-exhaust style. I, and some others I have worked with, have done a set of straight arm pullovers, followed by the bent arm version and lastly BB rows without any rest between sets. Exceptional pump, exceptional results. Have also included pulldowns, rather than BB rows. With chins I just use one pullover version before the actual chin. Good Luck.
Pullovers rank somewhere between 5 lb dumbbell curls and the pustules that form on "dov's" genital herpes lesions.
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I did this today, pretty good back attack.
Pullups- 5 sets 8-15 reps ( mainly used as a warm up for the entire back )
Seated Rows- 4 sets 8-12 reps
DB Row- 4 sets 10-12 reps
Straight arm pulldowns ss/ underhand pulldowns 3 sets of 10 ea
Rack deads- 3 sets.
I do the pullups to warm the back up, then i get onto the thickening movements, then the pulldowns, then do the deads last so i dont have to use too heavy of a weight put still work the low back without wrecking it.....
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Pullovers rank somewhere between 5 lb dumbbell curls and the pustules that form on "dov's" genital herpes lesions.
lol
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I did this today, pretty good back attack.
Pullups- 5 sets 8-15 reps ( mainly used as a warm up for the entire back )
Seated Rows- 4 sets 8-12 reps
DB Row- 4 sets 10-12 reps
Straight arm pulldowns ss/ underhand pulldowns 3 sets of 10 ea
Rack deads- 3 sets.
I do the pullups to warm the back up, then i get onto the thickening movements, then the pulldowns, then do the deads last so i dont have to use too heavy of a weight put still work the low back without wrecking it.....
Nice. Rack deads are a good way to hit that area with less stress and risk to the back IMO.
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I always do deads first. Warm up good, never had any trouble. Just one of those exercises in which i feel going heavy feels right. Yes there is potential for injury, but that is the case with any exercise. Plus im focusing more on strength a bit now, so certainly not going to do them last. Never liked doing pull ups first. Personally i leave them till last.
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Deadlifts are great if you follow the simple rule.
4-plates for enhanced athletes
3-plates for smaller athletes
Never go above these weights! This way you won't be ego lifting for numbers causing unnecessary risks etc, if the weight is so easy, do the exercise even stricter, slower and add more reps, make 3 plates feel like 5.
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Deadlifts are great if you follow the simple rule.
4-plates for enhanced athletes
3-plates for smaller athletes
Never go above these weights! This way you won't be ego lifting for numbers causing unnecessary risks etc, if the weight is so easy, do the exercise even stricter, slower and add more reps, make 3 plates feel like 5.
I'm not "enhanced", but I use more than 4 plates regularly, am I in trouble ???
I follow a simple rule, the biggest, most compound movement of my workout comes first.
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Deadlifts are great if you follow the simple rule.
4-plates for enhanced athletes
3-plates for smaller athletes
Never go above these weights! This way you won't be ego lifting for numbers causing unnecessary risks etc, if the weight is so easy, do the exercise even stricter, slower and add more reps, make 3 plates feel like 5.
This post reeks of faggage.
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-IMO you should save deads for last, because you're essentially interupting the upper back work for deads then coming back to them again. I never understood the point of doing deads anything but last.
Most do deadlifts first because they can handle far more weight...it's an ego thing. I'm no different. Given the exercise though, I really don't care what the overall weight is, but I do want to hit it while I'm fresh and full of energy.
I get a much better pump/feel in my lats when I do deadlifts last, but the weight is substantially lower too. In this case, I feel that since you're doing a compound movement and want to build thickness/power, you might as well provide the most overload. I do that by using them first.
As well, I have issues with my back, and if I hit DL's first, I can concentrate on them better, and not injure myself.
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Most do deadlifts first because they can handle far more weight...it's an ego thing. I'm no different. Given the exercise though, I really don't care what the overall weight is, but I do want to hit it while I'm fresh and full of energy.
I get a much better pump/feel in my lats when I do deadlifts last, but the weight is substantially lower too. In this case, I feel that since you're doing a compound movement and want to build thickness/power, you might as well provide the most overload. I do that by using them first.
As well, I have issues with my back, and if I hit DL's first, I can concentrate on them better, and not injure myself.
That's the thing, if you're getting a better pump by doing them last and acknowledge the ego part, to me it's a no-brainer to do em last.
The only argument against that is that the likelihood of injury goes down when doing them first. I think the opposite, that by having the back warmed up first and using less weight the chances of injury are reduced. Using less weight doesn't make one weaker, the reduced poundage is only due to fatigue-if you progress upwards in weight over a period of time there's still an increase in strength. Same thing in doing higher reps to reduce the risk of injury, if you progress with higher reps you're still getting stronger.
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I'm not "enhanced", but I use more than 4 plates regularly, am I in trouble ???
I follow a simple rule, the biggest, most compound movement of my workout comes first.
That's a good rule, i follow it too.
if you're in trouble? the sky is the limit if your joints and tendons can handle it.
Most powerlifters are usually training around an injury or coming back from one though.
I stick to 315, when i did 405 i started to feel it in my right knee, safety first. I don't want to get teh hurt :D
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That's the thing, if you're getting a better pump by doing them last and acknowledge the ego part, to me it's a no-brainer to do em last.
The only argument against that is that the likelihood of injury goes down when doing them first. I think the opposite, that by having the back warmed up first and using less weight the chances of injury are reduced. Using less weight doesn't make one weaker, the reduced poundage is only due to fatigue-if you progress upwards in weight over a period of time there's still an increase in strength. Same thing in doing higher reps to reduce the risk of injury, if you progress with higher reps you're still getting stronger.
While you and I rarely agree, on these points I'm in 100% full agreement with you.
But I also prefer to do them first, which no study will show. If it does, somebody owes me some $$$ for following me around :P
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Who use a trap bar for deadlift ?
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i wish i still could
back when i was at imperial college in london this old dungeon gym had one
one of the best exercise ever
i was young and didnt know much about logical sequences of exercises and so on and remember doin an agonizing 15 - 20 reps per set on squats for 5 sets or so only to then do exactly the same for trap bar deads
i was exhausted
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Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol
Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets
Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure
Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so
I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement
Any thoughts?
personally i wouldnt do chins first, because if i started out on them my biceps would be too active. i need to do a movement which is easier to stress the lats first, then once im pumped i can go to pull downs or chins and stress more on the back and get more weight off of the biceps...
the pullovers are good but the machine gets too light really quickly. a better version is using a pulley with a v bar on the pulldown machine... this lets you go real heavy...
barbell row- i love barbell rows. id suggest alternating between regular bb rows, and smith machien bb rows. they are different with pros and cons to each. i wouldnt stress going parallell with the ground, unless that is the position you feel the movement work the best. if you feel like your getting a better contraction in a different position, use that one.
you could add one or two exercvises too. db incline bench rows, seated machine rows, low row cable pulleys, hammer grip chins/pulldnws....
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I stick to 315, when i did 405 i started to feel it in my right knee, safety first. I don't want to get teh hurt :D
This is pure beastliness. 8) Bobby, can I PM you my current routine for some suggestions?
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I follow a simple rule, the biggest, most compound movement of my workout comes first.
x2
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Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol
Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets
Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure
Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so
I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement
Any thoughts?
work the back twice a week. 8-9 sets per session. 6-12 reps.
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This is pure beastliness. 8) Bobby, can I PM you my current routine for some suggestions?
You want to give me suggestions? go ahead!
I'm open minded to training and nutrition, there is always room for improvement and you can never learn enough
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You want to give me suggestions? go ahead!
No, my friend, I want you to give ME suggestions! 8)
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haha now you're trolling me ;D
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work the back twice a week. 8-9 sets per session. 6-12 reps.
:-\
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Interesting seeing Schwarzenegger's back routine again, he's prescribing the same order i did, with (1) deads at the end and (2) high reps and high sets for deads = less weight and far less risk of injury. ;D
Back:
Front wide-grip chin-ups – 6 sets, to failure
T-bar rows – 5 sets, 6-10 reps
Seated pulley rows – 6 sets, 6-10 reps
One-arm dumbbell rows – 5 sets, 6-10 reps
Straight-leg deadlifts – 6 sets, 15 reps
Ya i know some would say his volume workouts don't make sense, but the fact is even if the volume's reduced that wouldn't involve changing the order of anything there.
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Interesting seeing Schwarzenegger's back routine again, he's prescribing the same order i did, with (1) deads at the end and (2) high reps and high sets for deads = less weight and far less risk of injury. ;D
Back:
Front wide-grip chin-ups – 6 sets, to failure
T-bar rows – 5 sets, 6-10 reps
Seated pulley rows – 6 sets, 6-10 reps
One-arm dumbbell rows – 5 sets, 6-10 reps
Straight-leg deadlifts – 6 sets, 15 reps
Ya i know some would say his volume workouts don't make sense, but the fact is even if the volume's reduced that wouldn't involve changing the order of anything there.
So you copied Arnolds workout and expect people to be impressed?
I guess everyone should do their workouts the same exact way because we all know what works for one guy works for everyone. ::)
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So you copied Arnolds workout and expect people to be impressed?
I guess everyone should do their workouts the same exact way because we all know what works for one guy works for everyone. ::)
Actually if you'd read the preceeding posts you'd already know that i supported my reasoning. If i'd seen his workout earlier i'd have posted it at the beginning.
What exactly is the reasoning behind the mighty "chaos" physique? :P
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What exactly is the reasoning behind the mighty "chaos" physique? :P
I follow a simple rule, the biggest, most compound movement of my workout comes first.
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lol when it comes to compounds and working the back, chins are arguably the single best upper body exercise this is, with far less injury risk.
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lol when it comes to compounds and working the back, chins are arguably the single best upper body exercise this is, with far less injury risk.
;)
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the arnold routine posted is most likely bollocks
I ve read countless other so called routines executed by arnold and they vary consdierably
Taken from Joe Weider's Ultimate Bodybuilding book
Wide grip front chins 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Pulldowns behind neck 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Barbell bent rows 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
T bar rows 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Seated pulley rows 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Another typical nonsensical schwarzenegger routine
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the arnold routine posted is most likely bollocks
I ve read countless other so called routines executed by arnold and they vary consdierably
Taken from Joe Weider's Ultimate Bodybuilding book
Wide grip front chins 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Pulldowns behind neck 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Barbell bent rows 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
T bar rows 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Seated pulley rows 4 -5 sets 8 - 10 reps
Another typical nonsensical schwarzenegger routine
Not bollucks at all, that routine is not only accurate it's consist with all of his routines posted since i first read of his back workout in a summer 1973 Muscle Builder. The main difference is that he completely leaves out deads (which of course i agree with) and does even more upper back, and the order is silghtly different but the gist is the same including chins first.
The example you posted and the workouts i've seen over the years are all siimilar with only minor differences. The chins are always first, and the rest of it's pretty much the same save for some of the order.
The main difference in that version is completely leaving out deads and including more upper back work - something of course i agree with.
Same thing for the other muscles, the workouts for him posted over the years are actually quite consistent.
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Here's another arnold workout that doesnt resemble either the two already posted
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER'S ROAD-MAP BACK WORKOUT
EXERCISE SETS REPS
Wide-grip chins to the front x* 40
T-bar rows 3 10
Wide-grip chins behind the neck x* 30
Hyperextensions 3 15
The point is that i doubt arnold followed any of these routines for a lengthy period and the fact that he left deads isn't based on a training logic at all
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Here's another arnold workout that doesnt resemble either the two already posted
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER'S ROAD-MAP BACK WORKOUT
EXERCISE SETS REPS
Wide-grip chins to the front x* 40
T-bar rows 3 10
Wide-grip chins behind the neck x* 30
Hyperextensions 3 15
The point is that i doubt arnold followed any of these routines for a lengthy period and the fact that he left deads isn't based on a training logic at all
I don't have the pics, but there are several floating around here, Arnold was quite the deadlifter.
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Here's another arnold workout that doesnt resemble either the two already posted
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER'S ROAD-MAP BACK WORKOUT
EXERCISE SETS REPS
Wide-grip chins to the front x* 40
T-bar rows 3 10
Wide-grip chins behind the neck x* 30
Hyperextensions 3 15
The point is that i doubt arnold followed any of these routines for a lengthy period and the fact that he left deads isn't based on a training logic at all
Virtually all of his workouts published over the decades are along the lines of the first two posted here, which actually suggests that his workouts were quite consistent and similar.
Most here are too young to have a longer perspective. The idea that workouts have to vary considerably over time is one of those relatively recent trends. The need to vary workouts for effectiveness is neither a proven fact nor something that was followed by many top BBs back in the day.
Arnold was quite the deadlifter.
In one of the workouts here, he's not even doing them. In others he follows exactly what i've always suggested-(1) moderate weights and (2) high reps/sets - smart training to avoid injuries while still fully working the area, as all veterans fully understand. ;D
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there was a bad ass pic of arnold pulling 700 something for some record
(http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=348046&d=1163709571)
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there was a bad ass pic of arnold pulling 700 something
(http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=348046&d=1163709571)
Old news, that was posted a dozen times or so in the last months.
Now post up a pic of him going heavy like that after his early 20s lol what experienced guys know that you guys don't (yet) is that it makes no sense to go heavy later on-that's just ego lifting. Even Coleman kept the reps high other than for videos once a year.
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LOL, what a piece of shit. ;D
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LOL, what a piece of shit. ;D
Finally he gets it right bwhaahahaha..
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yet you delete and or modify my posts only because they make you look bad...but i do agree with you about the high reps and not ego lifting although making big lifts or my case personal records is always gratifying...
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yet you delete and or modify my posts only because they make you look bad...but i do agree with you about the high reps and not ego lifting although making big lifts or my case personal records is always gratifying...
Not just that but he deletes my posts calling him out, then posts a photoshopped pic of me and talks shit.
LMAO, what a coward. ;D
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and you think this being the training board there wouldnt be someone like him trolling people and impersonating a moderator...hey chaos let me ask you a question do you not believe in the theory that when using machines you dont get the same type of involvement from secondary muscles or stabilizzer muscles..?? i dont know if theres any credit to it actually but imo it makes sense it def does..
Free weights > machines. 8)
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yea every time you i disagree with or upset him he delets my posts...hes really a troll with a moderator title...
donny do you use a bowflex?
I dont - Bowflex is too advanced. Someday I will....Someday
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Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol
Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets
Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure
Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so
I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement
Any thoughts?
There is no perfect routine.... what matters is the intensity and form of your workouts, are you getting a real pump /blood into the muslces or are you simply heaving massive poundages for all to notice.
That said here is a sample of my own routine:
* stretch before routine and in between all sets
1. Barbell Rows(underhand grip) on Smith Machine: This takes the lower back out of the equation. Also I utilize hooks instead of wraps to assist my grip and when it gives out on all back exercises. I start at 135 for 15-20 warm-up, then do 185 for 10, then do 225 for 10, then do my first working set of 245 to max, immediately drop to 185 for max then to 135 for a max, thats 1 set. I do this type of "set" 2 more times and move on to machine pull-downs.
2. Machine Pull-downs(I use wide, overhand grip): Same formula, 1st set is at 100 lbs for 15, next 160 for 10, then the whole stack for 10(stack weighs about 225) then drop to 160 to failure then 100 to failure and thats 1 set, repeat 2 more times. By now I have a massive pump in the lats and the constant strectching only allows for greater blood flow. Next I will hit lying dumbell pullovers.
3. Lying dumbell pullovers : I start with a 40 lb dumbell for 15 reps, then 60 for 10 then 75 for for 10-15(75 is the heaviest they have in the gym), then I do 3 more sets with the 75 lb dumbell, I really love this exercise better than all the rest since it gives me the best stretch and pump and totally eliminates the biceps from the equation.
4. Last will be Barbell shrugs on smith machine - my traps are really developed so I do 135 for 10, 225 for 10, then 315 for 10, then immediately drop to 225 to failure then 135 for 15-20 and that's it for back.
Notes: You noticed no d-lifts, I have a back problem(bulging disc) so I stay away from weighted d-lifts, but if you have no injuries stopping you from doing them then by all means add them in last to your routine.
Thats what I do, and I have had amazing results form the amount of weights/volume I do in a given workout. I rest very little between sets since I value a pump more than trying to heave massive amounts of weight.
Good luck
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Free weights > machines. 8)
The kind of blanket statement i expect from a non-BB with no size and little experience or open-mindedness.
These guys would eat chaos for lunch and don't agree with the narrow minded thinking ;D
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=296501.0
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There is no perfect routine.... what matters is the intensity and form of your workouts, are you getting a real pump /blood into the muslces or are you simply heaving massive poundages for all to notice.
That said here is a sample of my own routine:
* stretch before routine and in between all sets
1. Barbell Rows(underhand grip) on Smith Machine: This takes the lower back out of the equation. Also I utilize hooks instead of wraps to assist my grip and when it gives out on all back exercises. I start at 135 for 15-20 warm-up, then do 185 for 10, then do 225 for 10, then do my first working set of 245 to max, immediately drop to 185 for max then to 135 for a max, thats 1 set. I do this type of "set" 2 more times and move on to machine pull-downs.
2. Machine Pull-downs(I use wide, overhand grip): Same formula, 1st set is at 100 lbs for 15, next 160 for 10, then the whole stack for 10(stack weighs about 225) then drop to 160 to failure then 100 to failure and thats 1 set, repeat 2 more times. By now I have a massive pump in the lats and the constant strectching only allows for greater blood flow. Next I will hit lying dumbell pullovers.
3. Lying dumbell pullovers : I start with a 40 lb dumbell for 15 reps, then 60 for 10 then 75 for for 10-15(75 is the heaviest they have in the gym), then I do 3 more sets with the 75 lb dumbell, I really love this exercise better than all the rest since it gives me the best stretch and pump and totally eliminates the biceps from the equation.
4. Last will be Barbell shrugs on smith machine - my traps are really developed so I do 135 for 10, 225 for 10, then 315 for 10, then immediately drop to 225 to failure then 135 for 15-20 and that's it for back.
Notes: You noticed no d-lifts, I have a back problem(bulging disc) so I stay away from weighted d-lifts, but if you have no injuries stopping you from doing them then by all means add them in last to your routine.
Thats what I do, and I have had amazing results form the amount of weights/volume I do in a given workout. I rest very little between sets since I value a pump more than trying to heave massive amounts of weight.
Good luck
impressive
are you performing essentially a drop set 3 times for bb row and pulldowns?
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impressive
are you performing essentially a drop set 3 times for bb row and pulldowns?
yes for both... I do these drop sets for almost every body part I train and have noticed amazing results versus the conventional way i trained which was hit 10 reps then rest(lose pump) and repeat and so on. It seems the old school approach to volume training Arnold adhered to really works, focusing on form and getting a crazy pump versus the amount of weight you use really does work. It seems though from alot of guys I see at the gym, do not understand this. Try it and I think you will be shocked.
The best bodypart that has responded has been shoulders. Shoulders really respond best to the drop set/ volume type of training. I NEVER use more than 30 pounds when doing dumbell side laterals for example, I'll do 30 to failure, then 20 lb to failure then 10 lb till failure and maybe even a 5 lb dumbell to failure. It seems counterintuitive to get bigger by the use of such light weights, but remember we're trying to build muscle not break powerlifting records.
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hey wiseguy thats a workout man heavy on the volume....what does your overall workout split look like?? also i was wondering how long does it take you to do a whole back workout??
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:-\
you dont agree? working back twice a week is much better strategy than blasting back once a week with unnecessarily high volume.
20 sets of back in one workout is overkill.
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20 sets of back in one workout is overkill.
:-\
What does your typical back workout look like?
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:-\
What does your typical back workout look like?
well right now i do 3 exercises x 3 sets = 9 (working)sets....twice a week.
can you get you back to grow by doing back once a week (with unnecessarily) high volume...sure. is it the best method? no.
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well right now i do 3 exercises x 3 sets = 9 (working)sets....twice a week.
is it the best method? no.
Says you.
What you are doing is a warm up, no wonder you have to do it twice a week.
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Says you.
What you are doing is a warm up, no wonder you have to do it twice a week.
yeah i say that and so does real world results (and science). and i know what im talking about, unlike most idiots on here. and i dont need drugs to mask shitty training strategies.
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yeah i say that and so does real world results. and i know what im talking about, unlike most idiots on here. and i dont need drugs to mask shitty training strategies.
"real world results" for you. I happen to get by just fine working back once a week, and I happen to know what I'm talking about too. :-*
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"real world results" for you. I happen to get by just fine working back once a week, and I happen to know what I'm talking about too. :-*
you are a drug user. what you do doesnt mean jack shit for naturals.
i have gotten results from working back once a week too..but its no the best way. and alot of people will get total shit results by only working back once a week.
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you are a drug user. what you do doesnt mean jack shit for naturals.
i have gotten results from working back once a week too..but its no the best way. and alot of people will get total shit results by only working back once a week.
??? Never used anything, check yourself son.
Open your mind, don't be like pumpster.
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you are a drug user. what you do doesnt mean jack shit for naturals.
i have gotten results from working back once a week too..but its no the best way. and alot of people will get total shit results by only working back once a week.
Totally agree-less is more for those with the guts to push the envelope each set with no wasted effort on half-assed extra volume. Do that and 9 sets plus warmups is more than enough, even less for smaller areas.
As far as frequency, there's what's in vogue and what works. Most top BBs over the last 40-50 years have gone with twice weekly for size including Coleman, Oliva, Schwarzenegger, Draper, etc.
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Totally agree-less is more for those with the guts to push the envelope each set with no wasted effort on half-assed extra volume. Do that and 9 sets plus warmups is more than enough, even less for smaller areas.
As far as frequency, there's what's in vogue and what works. Most top BBs over the last 40-50 years have gone with twice weekly for size including Coleman, Oliva, Schwarzenegger, Draper, etc.
All steroid abusers......according to slaveboy what they say means jack shit for naturals.
you are a drug user. what you do doesnt mean jack shit for naturals.
i have gotten results from working back once a week too..but its no the best way. and alot of people will get total shit results by only working back once a week.
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All steroid abusers......according to slaveboy what they say means jack shit for naturals.
Trolling by someone who doesn't resemble a BB whatsoever lol
Listen buddy here's a tip, since you don't know this - the fundamentals of BB training aren't turned upside down just because of juicing. Your preconception is typical of many who don't really know.
I like slave both for the serious insights and telling it like it is. ;D
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Trolling by someone who doesn't resemble a BB whatsoever lol
Discussion is trolling ???
Post up a pic, let's see how much you resemble a bodybuilder.
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Discussion is trolling ???
Post up a pic, let's see how much you resemble a bodybuilder.
I don't have the need of some to post pics-call it secure in your own skin maybe. I've extended invitations to meet with anyone in my next of the woods, that's even better than pics for those with balls. Ask Groink, he was "too busy" lol
Any type of serious discourse is impossible with "chaos" thanks to his inner demons and incessant need to troll in lieu of content. ;D
FYI i'm tired of being a sex object on my bike, whistled at by passing motorists. ;D
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I don't have the need of some to post pics-call it secure in your own skin maybe. I've extended invitations to meet with anyone in my next of the woods, that's even better than pics for those with balls. Ask Groink, he was "too busy" lol
Any type of serious discourse is impossible with "chaos" thanks to his inner demons and incessant need to troll in lieu of content. ;D
FYI i'm tired of being a sex object on my bike, whistled at by passing motorists. ;D
Groink said you blatantly ignored his repeated requests for directions. :-\
"secure in your own skin" hahhaa so much so that you're afraid of what some people on the internet will say about you. ;D
BTW to stay on topic.........9 sets is not enough for back even if you do it twice a week. It's an excuse to get out of busting your ass, but you already know and advocate that. ;)
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Groink said you blatantly ignored his repeated requests for directions. :-\
BTW to stay on topic.........9 sets is not enough for back even if you do it twice a week. It's an excuse to get out of busting your ass, but you already know and advocate that. ;)
So Yates with less than 9 sets wasn't busting his ass and had a poor back due to low sets... ::)
I did volume for years, less sets is better if there are no wasted sets-if every set is efficient. Volume training essentially means coasting in some sets and/or trying to work hard long after the central nervous system is burnt out.
Groink's claims are as substantive as his legs. ;D He won't be able to deny that it was me not him who extended the invite lol
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hey wiseguy thats a workout man heavy on the volume....what does your overall workout split look like?? also i was wondering how long does it take you to do a whole back workout??
It takes me about an hour to do my back, but then again I really don't pay attention to time.
As for my split here is what I do:
Day-1 arms, 20-30 min cardio
Day-2 shoulders/calves, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-3 Off
Day-4 Chest/abs, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-5 Back, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-6 Off
Day-7 Legs, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-8 Off
Repeat cycle
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So Yates with less than 9 sets wasn't busting his ass and had a poor back due to low sets... ::)
I did volume for years, less sets is better if there are no wasted sets-if every set is efficient. Volume training essentially means coasting in some sets and/or trying to work hard long after the central nervous system is burnt out.
Groink's claims are as substantive as his legs. ;D He won't be able to deny that it was me not him who extended the invite lol
Yates = boatload of drugs.......I don't use, I assume slaveboy doesn't use, do you use steroids?
As far as going to your gym is concerned how would I ever find it if you won't tell me where it is or what it's called?
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Yates = boatload of drugs.......I don't use, I assume slaveboy doesn't use, do you use steroids?
As far as going to your gym is concerned how would I ever find it if you won't tell me where it is or what it's called?
The drugs don't change training fundamentals or the results, they only exaggerate the combo of hard work, genetics, diet, etc.
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The drugs don't change training fundamentals or the results, they only exaggerate the combo of hard work, genetics, diet, etc.
I beg to differ.
No bodybuilder would have the results they have from lifting weights without drugs.
Now about directions to your gym........ :)
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I beg to differ.
No bodybuilder would have the results they have from lifting weights without drugs.
Now about directions to your gym........ :)
No, that's not the issue. Of course they wouldn't look the same without drugs. My point is that the drugs just amplify the same effects.
Anyone can pm me then leave a number.
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No, that's not the issue. Of course they wouldn't look the same without drugs. My point is that the drugs just amplify the same effects.
Anyone can pm me then leave a number.
Some of us have our PMs to you blocked. ::)
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So Yates with less than 9 sets wasn't busting his ass and had a poor back due to low sets... ::)
I did volume for years, less sets is better if there are no wasted sets-if every set is efficient. Volume training essentially means coasting in some sets and/or trying to work hard long after the central nervous system is burnt out.
Groink's claims are as substantive as his legs. ;D He won't be able to deny that it was me not him who extended the invite lol
I don't deny you did extend the original invite...and I had JUST MOVED to AZ, so yeah...I was a little fucking busy dude. Meeting a guy from the internets to train with was down on the list, nothing personal.
I've reciprocated on these boards many, many times
You want to stop acting like children and get a workout in like two adults...I'm game
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It takes me about an hour to do my back, but then again I really don't pay attention to time.
As for my split here is what I do:
Day-1 arms, 20-30 min cardio
Day-2 shoulders/calves, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-3 Off
Day-4 Chest/abs, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-5 Back, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-6 Off
Day-7 Legs, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-8 Off
Repeat cycle
hey guy i was just wondering if the rest of your workouts included so much volume and if so if that volume came mostly from machines as your back workout includes one DB move not flaming on your routine im just curious about the rest of it...
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I agree with pumpster......do the deads last. Easier on the lower back......you will also use a little less weight due to being pre exhausted from the prior back exercises......Yates always did deads last.......I think deads once a month are perfect for me.
I use them no more than once a month.......I love hammer strength one arm rows and also hammer strength high rows. I also enjoy seated cable rows with a long bar attachment.
On a side note.......hyperextensio ns are sensational and are a great alternative to deadlifting. Just my .02
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I'm on both sides of the fence here. One one hand I feel that high volume is good and conducive to gains. By using both 1x and 2x a week protocol.
I also feel that using a lower amount 1x & 2x per week is just as effective as doing higher volume.
What, and where, I feel people go wrong is by making blanket statements. Especially in regards to the human body you cannot just say X program is better than Y program. There are so many factors and/or parameters that go into why something may or may not work. One guy may have a barrel-like chest, so he's not going to get as much out of benching as another guy. Yet the guy that does a lot of benching may just not like using DB's whereas the former NEEDS DB's to achieve equal or lesser growth.
When it comes to volume, per overall amount of sets or per body part, BOTH work. Neither work.
If you're doing 9 sets per part, you'll bump growth up if you jump to 12 sets per part for a time. You can even ramp it up to say 15 sets. Then when you cut back again to 10 sets or a lesser amount of volume, you'll grow again. But where high volume trainers go wrong is that they'll preach to someone that's already (and has been) doing 18 sets per part, so that person bumps it up and they see no growth. Where the low volume/HIT'ers tend to go wrong is that they'll advocate a high volume guy cut his amount, but the high volume guy either can't put all his effort into the lesser amount of sets, or he just doesn't stick with it for a good duration to see any of the gains. He's mentally used to grinding out so many sets and that's where he can get psychologically trained to feel a certain way.
ALL programs work. Nearly every single program out there has been backed up by science. Pick out 10-20 "champs" from all walks of life over the last 20yrs, and you'll also have evidence to support the all programs work credo. Yates used a variation of HIT. Metzner was similar, but wanted even less sets, but is rumored to have done more than what he espoused. Ronnie Coleman and Arnold used tremendously high volume 2x a week to achieve their gains. You have supposed "naturals" using both programs and getting gains from it- far from their enhanced lifting cohorts though.
You can make a case for anything, as long as you know how to spin the numbers to yield what results you want.
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youngblood,
I hear what you are saying......regarding volume and frequency of training...
but keep in mind that Arnold's training was never accurately reported in the mags. Mentzer did perform more sets than he prescribed, and so we never really can rely on mags for precise workout routines. I do believe that 10-12 sets should suffice for the back. just my input, but 10-12 sets should be all you need for a bigger bodypart. Deadlifts definitely have to be used sparingly, due to the stress it cause place on your lower back. Like I have stated in an earlier post, once a month is great for me. I train back twice a week, and I average 10 sets per workout. Back is one of my better bodyparts, so I don't go overboard on it.
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youngblood,
I hear what you are saying......regarding volume and frequency of training...
but keep in mind that Arnold's training was never accurately reported in the mags. Mentzer did perform more sets than he prescribed, and so we never really can rely on mags for precise workout routines. I do believe that 10-12 sets should suffice for the back. just my input, but 10-12 sets should be all you need for a bigger bodypart.
Even given that the information is correct, incorrect or anywhere in between...what I'm saying is that you need to periodically alter your training volume. Many know this as "periodization."
You can/should/need to occasionally use more/less volume than what you currently do...
...as the saying goes "If you do what you've always done, you get what you've always gotten."
Keeping that maxim in mind, if you do not change what you're doing, you will not see growth. If you do not give your body something to adapt to, how can it grow? Adaptation=growth/change
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fair statement
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Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol
Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets
Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure
Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so
I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement
Any thoughts?
You should re-structure. Also dorian liked to do the pullpullovers early in the routine to pre-exhaust his lats as he had torn his bicep doing reverse-grip rows. The BEST routine would be one which isolates the lats first and then allows you to work inward recruiting your traps while still stimulating your lats.
Dumbell pullovers
Barbell rows- either overhand or reverse- or reverse on ez-bar
reverse grip pulldowns
high rep seated pulley rows
behind the neck pulldowns
deadlifts
Always use a dumbell for pullovers- dorian use the machine because most of his gym was full of nautilus and when you are 315 lbs it's a bit tough to lie on the bench and swing a huge dumbell around.
Always deadlift heavy. It's pointless otherwise.
BB rows kill DB rows for effectiveness. There is little comparison.
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motherfuckin latismus dorsi BDB style bitches
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You should re-structure. Also dorian liked to do the pullpullovers early in the routine to pre-exhaust his lats as he had torn his bicep doing reverse-grip rows. The BEST routine would be one which isolates the lats first and then allows you to work inward recruiting your traps while still stimulating your lats.
Dumbell pullovers
Barbell rows- either overhand or reverse- or reverse on ez-bar
reverse grip pulldowns
high rep seated pulley rows
behind the neck pulldowns
deadlifts
Always use a dumbell for pullovers- dorian use the machine because most of his gym was full of nautilus and when you are 315 lbs it's a bit tough to lie on the bench and swing a huge dumbell around.
Always deadlift heavy. It's pointless otherwise.
BB rows kill DB rows for effectiveness. There is little comparison.
-Free weights don't always win, not at all. Yates used a pullover machine for a long time, for good reason. The best ones isolate the lats far better than free weights, which is exactly what he himself says. In fact i would say the pullover machine is THE textbook case of a machine doing it better than free weights.
-Pre-exhaust is a good idea, but far from the only effective one. I agree with working all the upper back first but it's just as well to combine any two exercises and see what happens rather than sticking rigidly to a concept. In fact, I think Yates was one who tried pre-exhaust and didn't like it.
-As far as rowing machines, he liked them enough that they named one of their models after him, and that wasn't just because of the gym logistics either.
-BB rows aren't necessarily better at all, in fact i'll take one-arms anyday for a number of reasons.
-Deadlifting heavy is not only unnecessary it's dangerous. Top BBs often go heavy only for videos, not in regular training.
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yates did deadlifts at the end of his back workout, and usually kept the weight at 405.
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-Free weights don't always win, not at all. Yates used a pullover machine for a long time, for good reason. The best ones isolate the lats far better than free weights, which is exactly what he himself says. In fact i would say the pullover machine is THE textbook case of a machine doing it better than free weights.
-Pre-exhaust is a good idea, but far from the only effective one. I agree with working all the upper back first but it's just as well to combine any two exercises and see what happens rather than sticking rigidly to a concept. In fact, I think Yates was one who tried pre-exhaust and didn't like it.
-As far as rowing machines, he liked them enough that they named one of their models after him, and that wasn't just because of the gym logistics either.
-BB rows aren't necessarily better at all, in fact i'll take one-arms anyday for a number of reasons.
-Deadlifting heavy is not only unnecessary it's dangerous. Top BBs often go heavy only for videos, not in regular training.
agreed pumpster........machine pullovers are much better and safer than the db version......imho
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-BB rows aren't necessarily better at all, in fact i'll take one-arms anyday for a number of reasons.
-Deadlifting heavy is not only unnecessary it's dangerous. Top BBs often go heavy only for videos, not in regular training.
I prefer DB rows myself, however I did BB today.
So if bbers only deadlift heavy for videos, where do they get the strength to deadlift 800lbs like Ronnie did? Did he just Hulk Up and lift 800lbs? Or does it make more sense that he deadlifts heavy in order to gain the strength to lift that amount of weight? Same with squats, did he Hulk Up to squat 800 or did he actually work with heavier weights?
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So if bbers only deadlift heavy for videos, where do they get the strength to deadlift 800lbs like Ronnie did?
If big weights are lifted with high reps your single and double strength also goes up, without the same risk-the connective tissues has time to keep up with the loads the muscles can handle.
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If big weights are lifted with high reps your single and double strength also goes up, without the same risk-the connective tissues has time to keep up with the loads the muscles can handle.
So why do powerlifters waste their time training single, doubles, triples when they can train lighter and only lift heavy for their meets?
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There's absolutely no need to do DLs first unless there's a desire to see that area improve over the rest of the back. In BB circles upper back development is the more important factor plus most seem not to be aware that the lower back's already hit nicely thru squats (an even better and more significant compound exercise than deads will ever be) and various forms of rowing, making DLs less than essential in BB.
Also, as some here realize, deads are bad news for many in terms of injury potential. If they're done at all (vs. relying on indirect exercises or alternatives like hypers that aren't as hard on the back) after the back's warmed up from other things makes more sense.
My 2 cents.
Deads work the whole back not just the lower,zane did from mid shin deads to thicken his upper back to help with one of his wins and it worked..I did deads from just below knee yesterday today my upper back,traps and lats are absolutly destroyed compared to not so much in my lower and glutes..
For thickness from top to toe deadlifts can not be beat.
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So why do powerlifters waste their time training single, doubles, triples when they can train lighter and only lift heavy for their meets?
There's some added advantage to training that way when the emphasis is strength only. For BBs, it makes sense to maximize size with moderate or high reps that still gives some strength but isn't the main thing.
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There's some advantage to training that way when the emphasis is strength only. For BB, it doesn't make sense in terms of maximizing muscle development that powerlifters care about, and in terms of injuries.
You're saying bbers only train heavy for videos, I'm saying a bber is not going to lift 800lbs from the ground by doing deads last in his workout and going light........obviously he must have lifted some heavy ass deads in order to reach the point where he could lift 800lbs a few weeks out from a competition.
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Deads work the whole back not just the lower,
Of course, but relative to exercises that focus on upper back they're not the first choice IMO, and also involve lots of secondary muscles. Which is why i don't see the point of mixing them with upper back.
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You should re-structure. Also dorian liked to do the pullpullovers early in the routine to pre-exhaust his lats as he had torn his bicep doing reverse-grip rows. The BEST routine would be one which isolates the lats first and then allows you to work inward recruiting your traps while still stimulating your lats.
Dumbell pullovers
Barbell rows- either overhand or reverse- or reverse on ez-bar
reverse grip pulldowns
high rep seated pulley rows
behind the neck pulldowns
deadlifts
Always use a dumbell for pullovers- dorian use the machine because most of his gym was full of nautilus and when you are 315 lbs it's a bit tough to lie on the bench and swing a huge dumbell around.
Always deadlift heavy. It's pointless otherwise.
BB rows kill DB rows for effectiveness. There is little comparison.
I disagree about using a dumbell for pullovers - at least when attcking back. I feels its actually a different exercise to the machine, the dumbell seems to hit chest more and the machine is great when isolating the lats
As it happens does anyone agree that the straighter your arms are during the movement the more the lats are recruited and conversely when they are bent the chest is worked more
I 've performed a few workouts now according to routine i posted and its working well. Chins to begin with when freshest followed by ultra strict deads in which i use a double pronated grip and a relatively light weight in comparsion to using a staggered grip. Next up three sets of machine pullovers to failure with the heaviest weight at the first set with descreasing weight in subsequent sets and a double drop set on the last set - another advantage of the machine i feel over dumbells. The stack is getting lighter already but the pin head is small enough to fit in the inner circle of a plate so i may have to add one to the stack in the future. Lastly three sets of light high rep barbell row with torso parallel to floor. I'm sick of performing the yates version when teh torso is held upright - yes i can use more weight but the range of motion is less and it i'm sick of ego lifting. The old school version is far more exhausting i ve found and i'm far more out of breath at the end of each set - not neccessarily a good thing but mentally i feel i've worked harder.
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hey guy i was just wondering if the rest of your workouts included so much volume and if so if that volume came mostly from machines as your back workout includes one DB move not flaming on your routine im just curious about the rest of it...
a mix, but it is indeed mostly machines...
Here is an example of what I do for the other bodyparts:
Triceps
1. rope cable pushdowns
2. dips
3. Two handed dumbell over-head extensions
Biceps
1. Dumbell curls
2. barbell curls w/ ez bar
3. machine seated cable curls
Shoulders
1. dumbell side lateral
2. machine press
3. reverse pec dec
4. front raises holding 45 lb plate w/ both hands
Chest
1. Dumbell incline press
2. incline dumbell flyes
3. machine incline press
Quads
1 leg extensions
2. lunges
3. leg press
4. leg extensions
Hams
1. dumbell stiff legged deadlifts
2. machine seated leg curls
3. hyper-extensions
Calves
1. toe presses
Abs
1.Machine crunches
2.leg raises
Forearms
1. barbell wrist curls
2. barbell reverse curls
3. rope hammer curls
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looks pretty solid guy not an overage of machine imo....just tons of volume ;D ;D ;D