Author Topic: Opinions on this back routine  (Read 13691 times)

chaos

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57383
  • Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2009, 09:10:00 PM »
No, that's not the issue. Of course they wouldn't look the same without drugs. My point is that the drugs just amplify the same effects.

Anyone can pm me then leave a number.
Some of us have our PMs to you blocked. ::)
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Palpatine Q

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24132
  • Disdain/repugnance....Version 3: glare variation B
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2009, 10:08:01 PM »
So Yates with less than 9 sets wasn't busting his ass and had a poor back due to low sets... ::)

I did volume for years, less sets is better if there are no wasted sets-if every set is efficient. Volume training essentially means coasting in some sets and/or trying to work hard long after the central nervous system is burnt out.

Groink's claims are as substantive as his legs. ;D He won't be able to deny that it was me not him who extended the invite lol

I don't deny you did extend the original invite...and I had JUST MOVED to AZ, so yeah...I was a little fucking busy dude. Meeting a guy from the internets to train with was down on the list, nothing personal.

I've reciprocated on these boards many, many times

You want to stop acting like children and get a workout in like two adults...I'm game

ngm21084

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
  • D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2009, 06:25:05 AM »


It takes me about an hour to do my back, but then again I really don't pay attention to time.

As for my split here is what I do:

Day-1 arms, 20-30 min cardio
Day-2 shoulders/calves, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-3 Off
Day-4 Chest/abs, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-5 Back, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-6 Off
Day-7 Legs, 20-30 min. cardio
Day-8 Off

Repeat cycle



hey guy i was just wondering if the rest of your workouts included so much volume and if so if that volume came mostly from machines as your back workout includes one DB move not flaming on your routine im just curious about the rest of it...

wild willie

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5642
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2009, 09:18:55 AM »
I agree with pumpster......do the deads last. Easier on the lower back......you will also use a little less weight due to being pre exhausted from the prior back exercises......Yates always did deads last.......I think deads once a month are perfect for me.

I use them no more than once a month.......I love hammer strength one arm rows and also hammer strength high rows. I also enjoy seated cable rows with a long bar attachment.

On a side note.......hyperextensio ns are sensational and are a great alternative to deadlifting. Just my .02

YoungBlood

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6777
  • Weee!
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2009, 10:11:09 AM »

I'm on both sides of the fence here. One one hand I feel that high volume is good and conducive to gains. By using both 1x and 2x a week protocol.
I also feel that using a lower amount 1x & 2x per week is just as effective as doing higher volume.

What, and where, I feel people go wrong is by making blanket statements. Especially in regards to the human body you cannot just say X program is better than Y program. There are so many factors and/or parameters that go into why something may or may not work. One guy may have a barrel-like chest, so he's not going to get as much out of benching as another guy. Yet the guy that does a lot of benching may just not like using DB's whereas the former NEEDS DB's to achieve equal or lesser growth.

When it comes to volume, per overall amount of sets or per body part, BOTH work. Neither work.
If you're doing 9 sets per part, you'll bump growth up if you jump to 12 sets per part for a time. You can even ramp it up to say 15 sets. Then when you cut back again to 10 sets or a lesser amount of volume, you'll grow again. But where high volume trainers go wrong is that they'll preach to someone that's already (and has been) doing 18 sets per part, so that person bumps it up and they see no growth. Where the low volume/HIT'ers tend to go wrong is that they'll advocate a high volume guy cut his amount, but the high volume guy either can't put all his effort into the lesser amount of sets, or he just doesn't stick with it for a good duration to see any of the gains. He's mentally used to grinding out so many sets and that's where he can get psychologically trained to feel a certain way.

ALL programs work. Nearly every single program out there has been backed up by science. Pick out 10-20 "champs" from all walks of life over the last 20yrs, and you'll also have evidence to support the all programs work credo. Yates used a variation of HIT. Metzner was similar, but wanted even less sets, but is rumored to have done more than what he espoused. Ronnie Coleman and Arnold used tremendously high volume 2x a week to achieve their gains. You have supposed "naturals" using both programs and getting gains from it- far from their enhanced lifting cohorts though.
You can make a case for anything, as long as you know how to spin the numbers to yield what results you want.

wild willie

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5642
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2009, 11:10:35 AM »
youngblood,

 I hear what you are saying......regarding volume and frequency of training...
but keep in mind that Arnold's training was never accurately reported in the mags. Mentzer did perform more sets than he prescribed, and so we never really can rely on mags for precise workout routines. I do believe that 10-12 sets should suffice for the back. just my input, but 10-12 sets should be all you need for a bigger bodypart. Deadlifts definitely have to be used sparingly, due to the stress it cause place on your lower back. Like I have stated in an earlier post, once a month is great for me. I train back twice a week, and I average 10 sets per workout. Back is one of my better bodyparts, so I don't go overboard on it.


YoungBlood

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6777
  • Weee!
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2009, 12:17:06 PM »
youngblood,

 I hear what you are saying......regarding volume and frequency of training...
but keep in mind that Arnold's training was never accurately reported in the mags. Mentzer did perform more sets than he prescribed, and so we never really can rely on mags for precise workout routines. I do believe that 10-12 sets should suffice for the back. just my input, but 10-12 sets should be all you need for a bigger bodypart.

Even given that the information is correct, incorrect or anywhere in between...what I'm saying is that you need to periodically alter your training volume. Many know this as "periodization."
You can/should/need to occasionally use more/less volume than what you currently do...

...as the saying goes "If you do what you've always done, you get what you've always gotten."

Keeping that maxim in mind, if you do not change what you're doing, you will not see growth. If you do not give your body something to adapt to, how can it grow? Adaptation=growth/change

wild willie

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5642
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2009, 01:53:52 PM »
fair statement

GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2009, 06:42:31 PM »
Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol

Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets

Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure

Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so

I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement

Any thoughts?

You should re-structure. Also dorian liked to do the pullpullovers early in the routine to pre-exhaust his lats as he had torn his bicep doing reverse-grip rows. The BEST routine would be one which isolates the lats first and then allows you to work inward recruiting your traps while still stimulating your lats.

Dumbell pullovers
Barbell rows- either overhand or reverse- or reverse on ez-bar
reverse grip pulldowns
high rep seated pulley rows
behind the neck pulldowns
deadlifts

Always use a dumbell for pullovers- dorian use the machine because most of his gym was full of nautilus and when you are 315 lbs it's a bit tough to lie on the bench and swing a huge dumbell around.

Always deadlift heavy. It's pointless otherwise.

BB rows kill DB rows for effectiveness. There is little comparison.

haider

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11978
  • Team Batman Squats
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2009, 06:49:50 PM »
motherfuckin latismus dorsi BDB style bitches
follow the arrows

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #85 on: September 10, 2009, 06:54:45 PM »
You should re-structure. Also dorian liked to do the pullpullovers early in the routine to pre-exhaust his lats as he had torn his bicep doing reverse-grip rows. The BEST routine would be one which isolates the lats first and then allows you to work inward recruiting your traps while still stimulating your lats.

Dumbell pullovers
Barbell rows- either overhand or reverse- or reverse on ez-bar
reverse grip pulldowns
high rep seated pulley rows
behind the neck pulldowns
deadlifts

Always use a dumbell for pullovers- dorian use the machine because most of his gym was full of nautilus and when you are 315 lbs it's a bit tough to lie on the bench and swing a huge dumbell around.

Always deadlift heavy. It's pointless otherwise.

BB rows kill DB rows for effectiveness. There is little comparison.



-Free weights don't always win, not at all. Yates used a pullover machine for a long time, for good reason. The best ones isolate the lats far better than free weights, which is exactly what he himself says. In fact i would say the pullover machine is THE textbook case of a machine doing it better than free weights.

-Pre-exhaust is a good idea, but far from the only effective one. I agree with working all the upper back first but it's just as well to combine any two exercises and see what happens rather than sticking rigidly to a concept. In fact, I think Yates was one who tried pre-exhaust and didn't like it.

-As far as rowing machines, he liked them enough that they named one of their models after him, and that wasn't just because of the gym logistics either.

-BB rows aren't necessarily better at all, in fact i'll take one-arms anyday for a number of reasons.

-Deadlifting heavy is not only unnecessary it's dangerous. Top BBs often go heavy only for videos, not in regular training.


wild willie

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5642
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #86 on: September 10, 2009, 08:34:35 PM »
yates did deadlifts at the end of his back workout, and usually kept the weight at 405.

wild willie

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5642
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #87 on: September 10, 2009, 08:36:54 PM »

-Free weights don't always win, not at all. Yates used a pullover machine for a long time, for good reason. The best ones isolate the lats far better than free weights, which is exactly what he himself says. In fact i would say the pullover machine is THE textbook case of a machine doing it better than free weights.

-Pre-exhaust is a good idea, but far from the only effective one. I agree with working all the upper back first but it's just as well to combine any two exercises and see what happens rather than sticking rigidly to a concept. In fact, I think Yates was one who tried pre-exhaust and didn't like it.

-As far as rowing machines, he liked them enough that they named one of their models after him, and that wasn't just because of the gym logistics either.

-BB rows aren't necessarily better at all, in fact i'll take one-arms anyday for a number of reasons.

-Deadlifting heavy is not only unnecessary it's dangerous. Top BBs often go heavy only for videos, not in regular training.


agreed pumpster........machine pullovers are much better and safer than the db version......imho

chaos

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57383
  • Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #88 on: September 10, 2009, 08:48:49 PM »

-BB rows aren't necessarily better at all, in fact i'll take one-arms anyday for a number of reasons.

-Deadlifting heavy is not only unnecessary it's dangerous. Top BBs often go heavy only for videos, not in regular training.


I prefer DB rows myself, however I did BB today.

So if bbers only deadlift heavy for videos, where do they get the strength to deadlift 800lbs like Ronnie did? Did he just Hulk Up and lift 800lbs?  Or does it make more sense that he deadlifts heavy in order to gain the strength to lift that amount of weight?  Same with squats, did he Hulk Up to squat 800 or did he actually work with heavier weights?
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #89 on: September 10, 2009, 08:50:25 PM »

So if bbers only deadlift heavy for videos, where do they get the strength to deadlift 800lbs like Ronnie did?

If big weights are lifted with high reps your single and double strength also goes up, without the same risk-the connective tissues has time to keep up with the loads the muscles can handle.

chaos

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57383
  • Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #90 on: September 10, 2009, 09:08:25 PM »
If big weights are lifted with high reps your single and double strength also goes up, without the same risk-the connective tissues has time to keep up with the loads the muscles can handle.
So why do powerlifters waste their time training single, doubles, triples when they can train lighter and only lift heavy for their meets?
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

WillGrant

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21058
  • Ron is Watching
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #91 on: September 10, 2009, 09:15:17 PM »
There's absolutely no need to do DLs first unless there's a desire to see that area improve over the rest of the back. In BB circles upper back development is the more important factor plus most seem not to be aware that the lower back's already hit nicely thru squats (an even better and more significant compound exercise than deads will ever be) and various forms of rowing, making DLs less than essential in BB.

Also, as some here realize, deads are bad news for many in terms of injury potential. If they're done at all (vs. relying on indirect exercises or alternatives like hypers that aren't as hard on the back) after the back's warmed up from other things makes more sense.

My 2 cents.
Deads work the whole back not just the lower,zane did from mid shin deads to thicken his upper back to help with one of his wins and it worked..I did deads from just below knee yesterday today my upper back,traps and lats are absolutly destroyed compared to not so much in my lower and glutes..
For thickness from top to toe deadlifts can not be beat.



pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #92 on: September 10, 2009, 09:15:59 PM »
So why do powerlifters waste their time training single, doubles, triples when they can train lighter and only lift heavy for their meets?

There's some added advantage to training that way when the emphasis is strength only. For BBs, it makes sense to maximize size with moderate or high reps that still gives some strength but isn't the main thing.

chaos

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 57383
  • Ron "There is no freedom of speech here" Avidan
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #93 on: September 10, 2009, 09:21:01 PM »
There's some advantage to training that way when the emphasis is strength only. For BB, it doesn't make sense in terms of maximizing muscle development that powerlifters care about, and in terms of injuries.
You're saying bbers only train heavy for videos, I'm saying a bber is not going to lift 800lbs from the ground by doing deads last in his workout and going light........obviously he must have lifted some heavy ass deads in order to reach the point where he could lift 800lbs a few weeks out from a competition.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #94 on: September 10, 2009, 09:21:33 PM »
Deads work the whole back not just the lower,

Of course, but relative to exercises that focus on upper back they're not the first choice IMO, and also involve lots of secondary muscles. Which is why i don't see the point of mixing them with upper back.

sculpture

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2533
  • Getbig!
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2009, 05:08:11 AM »
You should re-structure. Also dorian liked to do the pullpullovers early in the routine to pre-exhaust his lats as he had torn his bicep doing reverse-grip rows. The BEST routine would be one which isolates the lats first and then allows you to work inward recruiting your traps while still stimulating your lats.

Dumbell pullovers
Barbell rows- either overhand or reverse- or reverse on ez-bar
reverse grip pulldowns
high rep seated pulley rows
behind the neck pulldowns
deadlifts

Always use a dumbell for pullovers- dorian use the machine because most of his gym was full of nautilus and when you are 315 lbs it's a bit tough to lie on the bench and swing a huge dumbell around.

Always deadlift heavy. It's pointless otherwise.

BB rows kill DB rows for effectiveness. There is little comparison.


I disagree about using a dumbell for pullovers - at least when attcking back. I feels its actually a different exercise to the machine, the dumbell seems to hit chest more and the machine is great when isolating the lats

As it happens does anyone agree that the straighter your arms are during the movement the more the lats are recruited and conversely when they are bent the chest is worked more

I 've performed a few workouts now according to routine i posted and its working well. Chins to begin with when freshest followed by ultra strict deads in which i use a double pronated grip and a relatively light weight in comparsion to using a staggered grip. Next up three sets of machine pullovers to failure with the heaviest weight at the first set with descreasing weight in subsequent sets and a double drop set on the last set - another advantage of the machine i feel over dumbells. The stack is getting lighter already but the pin head is small enough to fit in the inner circle of a plate so i may have to add one to the stack in the future. Lastly three sets of light high rep barbell row with torso parallel to floor. I'm sick of performing the yates version when teh torso is held upright - yes i can use more weight but the range of motion is less and it i'm sick of ego lifting. The old school version is far more exhausting i ve found and i'm far more out of breath at the end of each set - not neccessarily a good thing but mentally i feel i've worked harder.

WiseGuy

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2015
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2009, 09:15:58 PM »

hey guy i was just wondering if the rest of your workouts included so much volume and if so if that volume came mostly from machines as your back workout includes one DB move not flaming on your routine im just curious about the rest of it...

a mix, but it is indeed mostly machines...

Here is an example of what I do for the other bodyparts:

Triceps
1. rope cable pushdowns
2. dips
3. Two handed dumbell over-head extensions

Biceps
1. Dumbell curls
2. barbell curls w/ ez bar
3. machine seated cable curls

Shoulders
1. dumbell side lateral
2. machine press
3. reverse pec dec
4. front raises holding 45 lb plate w/ both hands

Chest
1. Dumbell incline press
2. incline dumbell flyes
3. machine incline press

Quads
1 leg extensions
2. lunges
3. leg press
4. leg extensions

Hams
1. dumbell stiff legged deadlifts
2. machine seated leg curls
3. hyper-extensions

Calves
1. toe presses

Abs
1.Machine crunches
2.leg raises

Forearms
1. barbell wrist curls
2. barbell reverse curls
3. rope hammer curls


ngm21084

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
  • D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
Re: Opinions on this back routine
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2009, 08:45:47 AM »
looks pretty solid guy not an overage of machine imo....just tons of volume  ;D ;D ;D