Flair wants to wrestle again

[Montague]

A WM8 match plus a series of house shows ending in a cage match at summerslam in Wembley Stadium.

Bulldog & Bret still would have been the top of that card.
I don't care who the old man put on after that match.

[The Showstoppa]

maybe Flair could fight his daughter's boyfriend

haha, Natch still out picking up chicks, even when he looks like that.  I remember when that happened in Chapel Hill.  Flair wouldn't press charges when the cops showed up.

[Playboy]

Bulldog & Bret still would have been the top of that card.
I don't care who the old man put on after that match.

That was one of the best matches I have ever seen. Bulldog & Bret Hart. Two old school stampede wrestlers. What a show they put on.

[Montague]

haha, Natch still out picking up chicks, even when he looks like that.  I remember when that happened in Chapel Hill.  Flair wouldn't press charges when the cops showed up.

Hey, I used to know some people from Chapel Hill.
What exactly happened?
And when?

[Montague]

That was one of the best matches I have ever seen. Bulldog & Bret Hart. Two old school stampede wrestlers. What a show they put on.

Aside from some of his work in NJPW & AJPW, that was one of Davey Boy Smith's GREATEST outings.
Not only did he get to work with someone he knew (and who knew him), but it was another phenomenal worker at that!

[The Showstoppa]

Hey, I used to know some people from Chapel Hill.
What exactly happened?
And when?

Here is the article.  I guess Ashley's bf didn't know how to work...

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6377701

[Montague]

Here is the article.  I guess Ashley's bf didn't know how to work...

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6377701

HA-HA-HAAAAAAAAAA!!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Flair probably didn’t press charges because:
a.) He didn’t want the world to know that a 72 time world champion involuntarily jobbed to a 22-y.o. jabroni.
b.) He didn’t want the world to know that his daughter throws a stiffer potato than her 83 time world champion father.
c.) He didn’t want the world to know that, by way of kicking the police’s asses and being taken away in handcuffs, his daughter drew more heat than the stylin' and profilin' 167 time world champion.

WOOOO!!!
and
DOUBLE WOOOO!!!

[Playboy]

He should grow his hair out again. Reform the horsemen. Then become Heavyweight champion again. What exactly is the problem here Vince?

Would be nice but:

1. Flair is too old to be wrestling and taking bumps full time. He's 60 yrs old.

2. Bringing back the horsemen wouldn't do well with ratings. Look what happened when they tried to bring back the NWO back in 2002. The fans didn't really care for it anymore. Its the past and done with.

I think he should be in the same role as he was with Evaloution. Have like a managerial role or an escort roll with some limited wrestling appearances.

[The Showstoppa]

Would be nice but:

1. Flair is too old to be wrestling and taking bumps full time. He's 60 yrs old.

2. Bringing back the horsemen wouldn't do well with ratings. Look what happened when they tried to bring back the NWO back in 2002. The fans didn't really care for it anymore. Its the past and done with.

I think he should be in the same role as he was with Evaloution. Have like a managerial role or an escort roll with some limited wrestling appearances.

You know, I actually watched Flair last night and the in-ring promo got me to thinking.  I think that the in-ring promos are part of the problem.  So little time to develop a "story" when a guy is cutting one.  Fans drowning them out, loss of focus, etc...

One of the coolest things about the Horseman was when they would all come out and cut a longer promo with Crockett, Solie, etc... then you had the confrontations, beatdowns, etc.....

The in-ring ones are generally lame and the confrontation take 5 minutes as the wrestler comes to the ring.

Seems like a small thing, but I say bring back the "announcers booth."

[Playboy]

I don't think we need Flair full time in the ring. Just give him the belt and have him never defend it. Like for a year. He has nothing left to prove. The show needs the theatrics back. Flair can bring that. More drama and talking. Less wrestling. Put some pretty chicks around him. Just be the out spoken character that is "Nature Boy" Ric Flair.

As for the Horsemen? As long as Flair has the reigns. It will work. The good life. The Styling and profilin. Holding up four fingers. Don't ever compare them to the NWO. Us true Federation fans didn't accept the NWO. Good try boys but you weren't welcome back. They were a bunch of sell outs and I'm personally glad it failed. The Horsemen shall ride again. I just don't wanna see it in TNA. Never again. Sting vs. Flair.

NWA / WCW tried to bing back the horsemen many, many times and it failed miserably. Nothing beat the original tandem of Arn, Tully, Ole & Flair. The rest were simply wannabe's. The horsemen were at their prime in 1986.

NWO might have worked in the WWE had Scott Hall not gotten drunk on a plane ride home from Europe and fired and Nash out with a torn quad but they made a TON of money for Bishoff cna Turner as well as them selves. Hall & Nash had a net income of 1.1 million, 1.6 million and 1.9 million for each of three years in WCW and then renued their contract till it expired in 2001. Hogan was making 3 million per year + 150,000 per each Nitro & Thunder appearence. Love 'em or hate 'em in the end, their wallets are full.

[Montague]

Not trying to diminish the value of Hogan & co., but most of Turner’s talent was overpaid by “industry standards.”

Again, I’m not debating the above three guys’ status or worth…
Just saying that a lot of guys were lucky to be making as much money as they did, and the top tier guys like Hogan were making even more than they would have doing the same work for Vince.

[Playboy]

Not trying to diminish the value of Hogan & co., but most of Turner’s talent was overpaid by “industry standards.”

Again, I’m not debating the above three guys’ status or worth…
Just saying that a lot of guys were lucky to be making as much money as they did, and the top tier guys like Hogan were making even more than they would have doing the same work for Vince.

Very true. The competition between the two brands definately helped bring the pay scale up. Its only fair though for a guy who takes bumps 6 days a week and travels 300+ days a year. Wrestlers were grossly underpaid at one time and only major stars made money. IMO I think Hall, Nash, Bret, Savage, Hogan, etc were smart to jump ship to WCW. More money, less work rate. In the real world if someone offered you a job for a 100,000 dollars per year and then another individual came up to you and offered you 500,000 per year to do the same job, what would you do? Its business. Money talks and B.S. walks.

[Montague]

Gorilla Monsoon always said that wrestling is a business.
And if you’re in business for any reason other than money, you’re a fool.

[UPINTHEMGUTS]

Would be nice but:

1. Flair is too old to be wrestling and taking bumps full time. He's 60 yrs old.

2. Bringing back the horsemen wouldn't do well with ratings. Look what happened when they tried to bring back the NWO back in 2002. The fans didn't really care for it anymore. Its the past and done with.
I think he should be in the same role as he was with Evaloution. Have like a managerial role or an escort roll with some limited wrestling appearances.

Disagree respectfully about the NWO in WWE. In my opinion, had Kevin Nash not torn his quadricep in a match, literally within a month of Hogan leaving, I think Vince would have really tried to take the NWO to further heights. If you remember, they were working on an angle to get Triple HHH to join the NWO. They already had Shawn Michaels in the group at that point. But then the injury to Nash occurred and Vince purposely on live TV dropped the NWO angle in front of a live audience, rather abruptly.

[Andy Griffin]

HA-HA-HAAAAAAAAAA!!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Flair probably didn’t press charges because:
a.) He didn’t want the world to know that a 72 time world champion involuntarily jobbed to a 22-y.o. jabroni.
b.) He didn’t want the world to know that his daughter throws a stiffer potato than her 83 time world champion father.
c.) He didn’t want the world to know that, by way of kicking the police’s asses and being taken away in handcuffs, his daughter drew more heat than the stylin' and profilin' 167 time world champion.

WOOOO!!!
and
DOUBLE WOOOO!!!

When ya walk that aisle...
If you don't like it...learn to love it!!  To BE the man, you gotta BEAT the man!!!
Whoooooo!!!!!!!!

[mass 04]

It was just for a showdown between DX and the NWO. I remember when that was happening. VKM realised it wasn't going to work. The real fans of the Federation that never sold out wouldn't accept these clowns. New New New World Order. 4 Life. I hated those guys. Does anyone here own a NWO t-shirt?

True story. A guy at my gym wears NWO, Austin 3:16, and a Rock shirt.

[Playboy]

It was just for a showdown between DX and the NWO. I remember when that was happening. VKM realised it wasn't going to work. The real fans of the Federation that never sold out wouldn't accept these clowns. New New New World Order. 4 Life. I hated those guys. Does anyone here own a NWO t-shirt?

I have an NWO, HHH and Austin 3:16 teeshirts 

[Playboy]

This is what I don't understand about the contuing statement that VKM doesn't push wrestlers he doesn't create? The guy is a business man and is after the almighty buck$. Take the Big Show for example. VKM didn't create him? He even wears the same wrestling trunks as when he was in WCW. What about Luger? What about Austin, Flair, and Foley? That statement makes no sense to Chef Timmy. Show me the money!

It makes perfect sense. Show and Austin were nobody's till they came to the federation and got moulded into stars. Lugar went no where in the 2 year fram he was with the WWE. In fact, he was given the big fight at WM10 against Yokozuna and the match was horrible. Later on he was put into stale fueds and used to job. Foley was soley used because of his "stunt" capability. Who else could take a dive off the top of a hell in the cell, through a table, thumb tacks, multiple chair shots, etc. Then once his body started failing him, Vince discharged him. Now where is he?? TNA. Not WWE. Yes, it IS all about the MONEY. Money talks, and bullshit walks. 

[Playboy]

Of course Foley was always used for his "stunt" capability. Thats what he did. He just was made famous with the Cell Dives. The guy peaked and couldn't go any further without killing himself. Big Show I think is just a Big of Star in the Federation as he was in WCW. He's the same exact guy. He just had better talent to work with in WWE and he really matured in the ring. Luger went nowhere because he sucks. Eric Bischoff will tell you that. Now what about Benoit, Eddie, Rey Rey, Tully, Arn, King, The Road Warriors, and JR? There's so many of them VKM didn't create. WWE tries to market them and if it doesn't work it doesn't work. Sting wouldn't make it in the Federation because he's lame and always has been lame. The way that I see it and will always see it is the Federation is the main stage. Not everyone can do it. I cannot see how VKM would sabotage another wrestler just because he didn't create them? He wants the money any which way he can make it. Who cares if he didn't create the character. Can you give me some examples besides wrestlers that blew from the get go and were'nt there just to fill the roster.

Again, the Show (known as the Giant) in WCW was getting his ass kicked weekl by the NWO and its members and was no where near the popularity he has with WWE. Benoit, Eddie and Ray Mysterio were low card wrestlers in WCW. They didn't become stars until they wrestled in the WWE. So you can't say that they were "ready made stars" so to speak because they were not. That is why they left WCW and headed to WWE in the first place. It worked out great for them as they became amazing stars after that.

The list of wrestlers that were already stars that Vince didn't create and destroyed or used wrong are Vader, Lugar (although he stinks as a wrestler he was big in JCP aka NWA), Alundra Blayze (aka Meduca Micelli who was huge in AWA & WCW), Booker T, Scott Steiner, Terry Taylor (with the stupid red rooster gimmick), Arn & Tully (they only had a one year stint, won the titles for 2 months and lost them only to become mid-carders & jobbers at house shows for the remainder of their stint), Gene Snitsky, Warlord & Barbarian (who were big in JCP aka NWA), Terry & Dory Funk (in the eighties), IRS (aka Mike Rotunda who was tops in NWA but a mid-low carder in WWE), The Blu Brothers and even the Road Warriors. Their first stint in the early ninties which lasted a whole 9 months were they won the tag titles and lost them immediately to the Natural Disasters and then used to job. Their mid ninties run was a disaster. Nothing but mid carders and then that ridiculous angle where a drunk Hawk threatening to commit suicide by jumping off the titantron. This is how you use the one of the greatest tag teams in wrestling history??? Are you kidding me? Sting only didn't join and turned down McMahon's offers because he knew if he signed he would be used poorly. Sting was HUGE in WCCW & WCW in the eighties and ninties. So what your saying makes no sense.

[Montague]

I think both of you are getting parts of this right.
Now put them together…

In regards to the old man not sabotaging his own product, you’re right – he would never intentionally shoot for lousy ratings.
Past WWF’ers have admitted that Vince used to do things for his own amusement – i.e. The Red Rooster, Ricky Steamboat’s “dragon” Halloween costume, etc.
And he has been known to “even scores” with some people, like putting Harley Race (a mutli-x NWA champion) in a program with JYD at the biggest WM ever.

**But when it comes to business, Vince will cast aside ALL differences in the interest of making money.**
But also remember that Vince is human - he can and does make mistakes.

When you take all of this into account, there is plenty of talent that has been misused, but for a variety of reasons; not just one definite.
Likewise, there have been lots of guys who’ve made it big, again, for a variety of reasons; not just one constant.

There are lots of determining factors at work here.
And I believe Sting when he says he was afraid of what WWF might do with him, but not because I think they would intentionally use him wrong (despite what Borden says). Any company in any industry can accidentally misuse talent.
So can Vince.

[Playboy]

All I know is i've been watching wrestling regularily since 1983 including all territories and I have seen MANY stars come to WWE only to be crushed by Vince. You also need to remember that Vince McMahon is an egomaniac. His WWE take home pay after taxes is 45,100,000.00 .... according to time magazine and when you make that kind of cash, do you really care about crushing a few stars who were big with competition before they came to your federation? It's like I said before. Money talks and bullshit walks.

[Playboy]

Flair is an old man too and you suggested putting the world title on him in today's WWE.

Race lost to Hogan, yes...but....he had the big fight and then he was reduced to jobbing to bigger stars. You don't make a guy who's had a stellar career like Race job to people. 

[Playboy]

This is what the down fall is now. There's just not one leader of the WWE anymore like there always used to be. All those mid card guys were good but not great. Now they try to utilize everyone by having so many titles and constantly switching them around. How it used to be was everyone was chasing one guy.All the guys that were from other organizations never reached their true potential. They needed more experience. Look at Big Show. How much better did that guy get since joining the WWE? Unless their a genius on the mic. I think alot has to do with their in ring ability and how far their gonna push themselves. A team like the Road Warriors were so far above every other tag team that they had no where to go? Absolutely the drunk Hawk thing was stupid and I wish never happened. But no way do I believe it was VKM trying to bury thse two guys? One fans trash is  another fans treasure. Sting was big in the South. Sting wouldn't have drawn anything in the WWE because he is probably the most over rated wrestler to ever put on a pair of tights! And once he came to the big stage he would have been exposed. When the come to Vince they're all diamonds in the rough.  He just figures out how to make them shine.

Very well said. But you must remember. WWE is NOT the only wrestling promotion out there. Especially in the days of NWA, AWA, WCCW, Memphis wrestling, etc. Guys make TONS of money in Japan, Europe, Australia and North America especially with TNA now climbing up there. Vince did a great job with Austin, Eddie, Rey and a few others but he buried others as well.  

[Playboy]

Bad example Playboy. You cannot compare Ric Flair to anyone. I never watched Race until he came up North. By then he was a fat old man. He didn't appeal to a 14 year old Chef to be Timmy. Without I don't know anything about his past career. Just about his federation days. I don't think he did too bad in the WWE. He had Bobby as a manager and he was the King which was kinda prestigious during that time period. So what if he had a pie fight with Duggan.

he's 60 

[Montague]

... Vince McMahon is an egomaniac. His WWE take home pay after taxes is 45,100,000.00 .... according to time magazine and when you make that kind of cash, do you really care about crushing a few stars...

Absolutely.
I don't doubt that one bit - there's no other explanation for giving a guy a red mohawk and making him cluck like a chicken.

I just don't believe that self-amusement or spite are the only reasons Vince has misused talent.
Not every idea the old man gets is golden.