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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: el duke on July 01, 2007, 12:23:44 AM
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IF anyone has seen the movie did you like it????? And regardless of wether or not your a Michael Moore fan. What are your views on health care...
Me personally, I'm a pre-health bio/physics major and a respectable college and I completely support universal health care. I wish we had a system that would blow everyones out of the water no no money.
And another question, do your think this topic is worth choosing a candidate for. How does this topic rate compaired to the war in Iraq
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I bet the only way Michael Moore gets laid is by paying prostitutes.
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some vegas ones are smoking hott, SO yea good comment douchebag, so what about healthcare, so bout you type something worth reading.
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I think there has to be some sort of reform. Just because this is a capitalist country does not mean that we have to have privatized health care. Many things in the US are government run because you can't trust them to the whims and greed of industry- schools, police, firefighters, etc.
I think it is ridiculous how corrupt some of these insurance companies are. The LA Times ran an expose on the corrupt nature of the health insurance industry a while back- what they do is completely unethical
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I have seen it and love it. It is something every American should be required to view and discuss.
Healthcare SHOULD be Universal. It is a Human Right and a Necesscity. A healthier country= a healither economy. We are currently ranked 36th in the world, behind Slovenia in healthcare. We are the ONLY industrialized nation without Universal healthcare. We do not expect some people to get partial police and fire coverage, why should we expect people to get partial or no health coverage? I know firsthand how crooked Health Insurance companies are as I have worked with one before.
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Let me know if you would like to see it free.
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free? it will be payed by tax dollars. you communist. why dont you wanna see the government run everything? wouldnt that be great?
Seems to work fine in europe. Walk in and out for free with quality healthcare and doctors payed based on how good they are but if you like paying 60,000 out of your own pocket for a weeks stay in a hospital then i guess thats fine too. Vote democrat in 2008.
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free? nothing is free. it's payed by taxes.
Ohh.... wow.. thank you bluto. I just had an amazing revelation.... That is just terrible. All money should go to big business HMO and papa daddy Bush. Vote republican in 2008!! Thank you for the insightful advice.
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tell me more bout the healthcare in europe? i guess its the same in every european country right?
i await your reply. being european and all it should be interesting!
You are an idiot if you do not believe that our health care system is in shambles. Continue to deny it. Maybe one day you will be one of the many lucky ones who get turned down for insurance.
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tell me more bout the healthcare in europe? i guess its the same in every european country right?
i await your reply. being european and all it should be interesting!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3881779810159387642&q=sicko&total=2244&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4
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i make a comment on something adonis says. you dont get it and start talking about something else. the joke is on you.
All you are doing is stirring shit with little or no back ground information. You are like a child trying to participate in an adult conversation.
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Healthcare SHOULD be Universal. It is a Human Right and a Necesscity.
No, it is not a human right. You have no right to anything beyond what you earn from the moment you're born until the moment you die. It bothers me that socialists now consider services provided by the work of others to be their "right". You are no more entitled to health care paid for by others than you are entitled to any other property of theirs.
Healthcare SHOULD be Universal. It is a Human Right and a Necesscity. A healthier country= a healither economy.
I had this discussion with my aunt. This implies that socialized health care creates a healthier economy. It does not. Michael Moore says we should "eliminate the profit motive". What offends me the most is that the only reason the quality of care in the USA is as high as it is is because of the profit motive - BECAUSE of capitalism - Michael Moore suggests that we can have the same degree of production and efficiency without a profit incentive! This is so absurd it is pollution to my brain to even read it. Without the profit motivator, production decreases or halts completely - it seems that just like basic economics, like the Second Amendment, is something Michael Moore has absolutely no idea about.
It's called the Big Tradeoff - fairness and efficiency. If the government forcibly redistributes the pie, the pie becomes smaller for everyone.
Moreover, perverse things happen in socialized medicine. Like 16-month waiting lists for surgery. Like three lithotripters in a major city, wheras in America there are 300 in a similar city. Like the system subsidizing the care of upper middle class people who could easily afford it themselves.
There is plenty of suffering in the world, and what galls me is the leftist view that redistributing money to the less well off in North America is the best place to do so. If you truly wanted to minimize suffering, you'd hand that money to starving Africans. I say, let a rich world renal victim die and spend the thousands of government dollars saving literally hundreds of people in Africa. THIS would be the compassionate thing to do. No?
Of course, the real way to minimize suffering is to have fair rules. Trade with Africans, have a large economy, and things will be best in the long run. Even if people die in the meantime. Under socialist policies, MORE people die and get sick. This is another thing that offends me about socialists, the fact that they don't understand that both capitalism and socialism cause harm, but capitalism causes the least amount of harm of the two.
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No, it is not a human right. You have no right to anything beyond what you earn from the moment you're born until the moment you die. It bothers me that socialists now consider services provided by the work of others to be their "right". You are no more entitled to health care paid for by others than you are entitled to any other property of theirs.
It could be argued that "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" should include universal health care.
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It could be argued that "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" should include universal health care.
It could also be argued (more effectively as well) that the right to put any substance you want in your own body falls under "liberty". The problem with health care falling into these categories is that it infringes on the rights of others when they must pay for your care - having their funds confiscated through force by the state to do so (also known as "robbery").
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Moreover, perverse things happen in socialized medicine. Like 16-month waiting lists for surgery. Like three lithotripters in a major city, wheras in America there are 300 in a similar city.
This one sentence right here is why I will never support socialized medicine. Right now I can get a diagnostic test or surgery within days if I need it. In Europe or Canada there are months-long waits for these things. I absolutely will not compromise the quality of MY healthcare just so fatass no-job-having LaKeesha and Tamika can get a free checkup, nor will I have some government bureaucrat deciding for me what I can and can't have in terms of healthcare. >:(
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PS: Michael Moore is an ignorant, manipulative, fat sack of shit who this world would be better off without.
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PS: Michael Moore is an ignorant, manipulative, fat sack of shit who this world would be better off without.
second that
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This one sentence right here is why I will never support socialized medicine. Right now I can get a diagnostic test or surgery within days if I need it. In Europe or Canada there are months-long waits for these things. I absolutely will not compromise the quality of MY healthcare just so fatass no-job-having LaKeesha and Tamika can get a free checkup, nor will I have some government bureaucrat deciding for me what I can and can't have in terms of healthcare. >:(
Exactly. Socialism creates perverse incentives which are more destructive than they are productive. Where is the incentive to care about your own health when health care is provided for by the state?
By the way, I admit that Michael Moore does make some good points, but overall I think he has a lot to learn. I agree that when you sign a contract and pay money which entitles you to certain care, you deserve to receive that care. Some companies do withhold care from people which they paid for and that is wrong.
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Seems to work fine in europe. Walk in and out for free with quality healthcare and doctors payed based on how good they are but if you like paying 60,000 out of your own pocket for a weeks stay in a hospital then i guess thats fine too. Vote democrat in 2008.
Yeah that's why everyone with money in Europe or any other country for that matter comes to the US when they need the best medical care on the planet.
Don't vote again til we have a leader to vote for...
85% of America is covered in some way shape or form so it's not as big a deal as it seams or as the naysayers would lead you to believe. If we reformed the way that the medical system rips off the patient which is then essentially rubber stamped by the insurer and couple that with removing 20 million illegals from the health and welfare system that the rest of us taxpayers supplement then you'd be on to something.
I haven't seen the movie but every Michael Moore movie I have seen was nothing more than a "Movie" so keep that in mind when you form your opinion. Nothing more disturbing than the attempts at humor in Fahrenheit 911, ha ha 3000 dead Americans... hilarious. The only thing that was funny and apropo was our illustrious dumbass loser president trying to tell the fuck me once shame on you fuck me twice etc. maxim at the end.
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I've had no problems with my healthcare. I got smashed in the face with a piece of lumber and busted my nose. About $12,000 to make it straight again. Insurance paid it all. My grandpa had 2 heart attacks and had $50,000 surgery. Insurance paid all but about $500. This video does make it sound worse than it is.
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Yeah that's why everyone with money in Europe or any other country for that matter comes to the US when they need the best medical care on the planet.
are you sure about that? I think there is a bit of ethnocentrism in that statement. You mean to tell me there aren't top level doctors and surgeons in western europe?
also, whether it is paid for or not through insurance, the cost of health care in the US is ridiculously high. About a year ago, I got a severe cut on a finger on my left hand- simple stitches were needed- cost was $1600, of which I had to pay $450. For stitches!
slightly before that, I had a simple physical in which standard blood work was done and it cost me nearly $600- and I have full coverage!
also, the pharmaceutical companies charge far too much for the drugs they market and many doctors are basically bribed into prescribing them.
i'm not saying that universal health care is necessarily the answer, but people must at least admit that the US system is very flawed and needs significant reform.
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are you sure about that? I think there is a bit of ethnocentrism in that statement. You mean to tell me there aren't top level doctors and surgeons in western europe?
also, whether it is paid for or not through insurance, the cost of health care in the US is ridiculously high. About a year ago, I got a severe cut on a finger on my left hand- simple stitches were needed- cost was $1600, of which I had to pay $450. For stitches!
slightly before that, I had a simple physical in which standard blood work was done and it cost me nearly $600- and I have full coverage!
also, the pharmaceutical companies charge far too much for the drugs they market and many doctors are basically bribed into prescribing them.
i'm not saying that universal health care is necessarily the answer, but people must at least admit that the US system is very flawed and needs significant reform.
Yes that's what I'm telling you, the best medical care is here in the US that's why everyone comes here for medical care and medical training.
I agree with you on the cost, there's no oversight compared to any other industry but then again figure in the cost of operating a hospital here. Emergency Rooms just standing still are notoriously expensive..
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are you sure about that? I think there is a bit of ethnocentrism in that statement. You mean to tell me there aren't top level doctors and surgeons in western europe?
The best doctors in the world, regardless of their ethnicity or nationality, come to America to practice. That's a fact.
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I hate to say it... or maybe don't, but the world is overpopulated anyways.
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The best doctors in the world, regardless of their ethnicity or nationality, come to America to practice. That's a fact.
Which begs the question, how do you define "best"?
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No, it is not a human right. You have no right to anything beyond what you earn from the moment you're born until the moment you die. It bothers me that socialists now consider services provided by the work of others to be their "right". You are no more entitled to health care paid for by others than you are entitled to any other property of theirs.
I had this discussion with my aunt. This implies that socialized health care creates a healthier economy. It does not. Michael Moore says we should "eliminate the profit motive". What offends me the most is that the only reason the quality of care in the USA is as high as it is is because of the profit motive - BECAUSE of capitalism - Michael Moore suggests that we can have the same degree of production and efficiency without a profit incentive! This is so absurd it is pollution to my brain to even read it. Without the profit motivator, production decreases or halts completely - it seems that just like basic economics, like the Second Amendment, is something Michael Moore has absolutely no idea about.
It's called the Big Tradeoff - fairness and efficiency. If the government forcibly redistributes the pie, the pie becomes smaller for everyone.
Moreover, perverse things happen in socialized medicine. Like 16-month waiting lists for surgery. Like three lithotripters in a major city, wheras in America there are 300 in a similar city. Like the system subsidizing the care of upper middle class people who could easily afford it themselves.
There is plenty of suffering in the world, and what galls me is the leftist view that redistributing money to the less well off in North America is the best place to do so. If you truly wanted to minimize suffering, you'd hand that money to starving Africans. I say, let a rich world renal victim die and spend the thousands of government dollars saving literally hundreds of people in Africa. THIS would be the compassionate thing to do. No?
Of course, the real way to minimize suffering is to have fair rules. Trade with Africans, have a large economy, and things will be best in the long run. Even if people die in the meantime. Under socialist policies, MORE people die and get sick. This is another thing that offends me about socialists, the fact that they don't understand that both capitalism and socialism cause harm, but capitalism causes the least amount of harm of the two.
Actually the competetion isn't taken out of it. If you watched the movie you'd see that. Doctors get paid better by how good their work is as opposed to here in the US where surgeons can have people dying on the table with every operation yet still be payed the same as a surgeon who is good.
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Actually the competetion isn't taken out of it. If you watched the movie you'd see that. Doctors get paid better by how good their work is as opposed to here in the US where surgeons can have people dying on the table with every operation yet still be payed the same as a surgeon who is good.
I live in New Zealand and the health care system is similar to England's (shown in the movie). We have good doctors here. Doctors for the most part are the same in every developed nation. The standard of education is high across the board... I don't prescribe to this silly notion that US surgeons/doctors are better... There's just more of some specialised surgeons in the US as it has a bigger population. When you need a highly specialised surgeon then it is just natural to go to the place where they are. The Health Care-Insurance coupled system in the US is definitely corrupt... just look at the salaries/payouts to some of their top dogs... Like, what the fuck? Your money should be better spent than that.
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I live in New Zealand and the health care system is similar to England's (shown in the movie). We have good doctors here. Doctors for the most part are the same in every developed nation. The standard of education is high across the board... I don't prescribe to this silly notion that US surgeons/doctors are better... There's just more of some specialised surgeons in the US as it has a bigger population. When you need a highly specialised surgeon then it is just natural to go to the place where they are. The Health Care-Insurance coupled system in the US is definitely corrupt... just look at the salaries/payouts to some of their top dogs... Like, what the fuck? Your money should be better spent than that.
Agreed... And MattC brings up all these points but i don't see any Canadians, French, Germans, English, etc complaining about their healthcare. Hell, they were afraid to leave Canada into the US without their form of national insurance in the movie.
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I live in New Zealand and the health care system is similar to England's (shown in the movie). We have good doctors here. Doctors for the most part are the same in every developed nation. The standard of education is high across the board... I don't prescribe to this silly notion that US surgeons/doctors are better... There's just more of some specialised surgeons in the US as it has a bigger population. When you need a highly specialised surgeon then it is just natural to go to the place where they are. The Health Care-Insurance coupled system in the US is definitely corrupt... just look at the salaries/payouts to some of their top dogs... Like, what the fuck? Your money should be better spent than that.
That's what I was trying to get at
If the health care is so poor in western europe, australia, n. zealand, etc. why is the life expectancy in those countries roughly the same as the US? I know a lot of variables enter into life expectancy, but quality of health care is definitely a major factor
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That's what I was trying to get at
If the health care is so poor in western europe, australia, n. zealand, etc. why is the life expectancy in those countries roughly the same as the US? I know a lot of variables enter into life expectancy, but quality of health care is definitely a major factor
Their life expectancy is higher then that of the US. The US has actually plummeted in life expectancy but that would mainly be due to the obesity epidemic (hahahah like it is some kind of disease... pathetic.)
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Where I live (winnipeg) there is actually a clinic now that does medical procedures privately. Many people who can afford to have their medical needs attended to will chose this place rather than wait 20 months. Personally I think politicians and others such as micheal have no clue as to what the fuck they are talking about yet all have much to say.
Matt, can you elaborate on your statement with regards to the advancements in the medical industry being solely dependent upon profit seeking agendas.
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We do not expect some people to get partial police and fire coverage, why should we expect people to get partial or no health coverage?
take american government 101 or public finance and you will understand....
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Seems to work fine in europe. Walk in and out for free with quality healthcare and doctors payed based on how good they are but if you like paying 60,000 out of your own pocket for a weeks stay in a hospital then i guess thats fine too. Vote democrat in 2008.
universal health care is not that great, both in europe and canada you can get it for free but try to schedule a simple surgery and the wait is like three months. here in the states i was diagnosed with a hernia, had a surgery two days later.
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universal health care is not that great, both in europe and canada you can get it for free but try to schedule a simple surgery and the wait is like three months. here in the states i was diagnosed with a hernia, had a surgery two days later.
Thats what i hear but Michael Moore specifically addresses this in the video.
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I completely support universal health care.
Why????????????
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No, it is not a human right. You have no right to anything beyond what you earn from the moment you're born until the moment you die. It bothers me that socialists now consider services provided by the work of others to be their "right". You are no more entitled to health care paid for by others than you are entitled to any other property of theirs.
I had this discussion with my aunt. This implies that socialized health care creates a healthier economy. It does not. Michael Moore says we should "eliminate the profit motive". What offends me the most is that the only reason the quality of care in the USA is as high as it is is because of the profit motive - BECAUSE of capitalism - Michael Moore suggests that we can have the same degree of production and efficiency without a profit incentive! This is so absurd it is pollution to my brain to even read it. Without the profit motivator, production decreases or halts completely - it seems that just like basic economics, like the Second Amendment, is something Michael Moore has absolutely no idea about.
It's called the Big Tradeoff - fairness and efficiency. If the government forcibly redistributes the pie, the pie becomes smaller for everyone.
Moreover, perverse things happen in socialized medicine. Like 16-month waiting lists for surgery. Like three lithotripters in a major city, wheras in America there are 300 in a similar city. Like the system subsidizing the care of upper middle class people who could easily afford it themselves.
There is plenty of suffering in the world, and what galls me is the leftist view that redistributing money to the less well off in North America is the best place to do so. If you truly wanted to minimize suffering, you'd hand that money to starving Africans. I say, let a rich world renal victim die and spend the thousands of government dollars saving literally hundreds of people in Africa. THIS would be the compassionate thing to do. No?
Of course, the real way to minimize suffering is to have fair rules. Trade with Africans, have a large economy, and things will be best in the long run. Even if people die in the meantime. Under socialist policies, MORE people die and get sick. This is another thing that offends me about socialists, the fact that they don't understand that both capitalism and socialism cause harm, but capitalism causes the least amount of harm of the two.
agree except the africa part. if you simply send money over there, that will be more destructive in the long run to their incentives to produce anything themselves. they need to learn responsibility, not fucck around, get HIV, and wait for foreign aid to come in. if they cannot grow enough food to feed themselves, it means the continent is overpopulated, at least relative to the technology they have.
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Kind of hard to have it both ways. We have a for profit sytem that generates money that goes into funding the best hospitals, most cutting edge equipment and no wait even for elective surgery and the best doctors. The downside is its very expensive. My mother inlaw in British Columbia literally has to travel 500 mile for dialysis. The state of Pennsylvania has more MRI machines than all of Canada.
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im outta my league? i still dont know what youre trying to say. or what any of this has to do with my comment on adonis.
and with that three post meltdown you still havent answeed my question if youre a communist?
You are SO DUMB. What about the recent 8 years under Clinton? He did so much to reform the healthcare industry. ::)
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huh? you are a total nobody, a newly registered rookie and a possible gimmick account, comes into this thread all fired up because you just seen sicko and doesnt pay attention to the on going discussion.
if you wanna make a salute michael moore thread - feel free to do so. but its not on-topic here.
He is probably like 18 years old. The bug knows it all. ;)
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No, it is not a human right. You have no right to anything beyond what you earn from the moment you're born until the moment you die. It bothers me that socialists now consider services provided by the work of others to be their "right". You are no more entitled to health care paid for by others than you are entitled to any other property of theirs.
I had this discussion with my aunt. This implies that socialized health care creates a healthier economy. It does not. Michael Moore says we should "eliminate the profit motive". What offends me the most is that the only reason the quality of care in the USA is as high as it is is because of the profit motive - BECAUSE of capitalism - Michael Moore suggests that we can have the same degree of production and efficiency without a profit incentive! This is so absurd it is pollution to my brain to even read it. Without the profit motivator, production decreases or halts completely - it seems that just like basic economics, like the Second Amendment, is something Michael Moore has absolutely no idea about.
It's called the Big Tradeoff - fairness and efficiency. If the government forcibly redistributes the pie, the pie becomes smaller for everyone.
Moreover, perverse things happen in socialized medicine. Like 16-month waiting lists for surgery. Like three lithotripters in a major city, wheras in America there are 300 in a similar city. Like the system subsidizing the care of upper middle class people who could easily afford it themselves.
There is plenty of suffering in the world, and what galls me is the leftist view that redistributing money to the less well off in North America is the best place to do so. If you truly wanted to minimize suffering, you'd hand that money to starving Africans. I say, let a rich world renal victim die and spend the thousands of government dollars saving literally hundreds of people in Africa. THIS would be the compassionate thing to do. No?
Of course, the real way to minimize suffering is to have fair rules. Trade with Africans, have a large economy, and things will be best in the long run. Even if people die in the meantime. Under socialist policies, MORE people die and get sick. This is another thing that offends me about socialists, the fact that they don't understand that both capitalism and socialism cause harm, but capitalism causes the least amount of harm of the two.
Very well said.
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whats' a good health insurance for self-insured folks to pick up? We restructured when baby was born and the jump from "self and 1 child" to "full family" coverage was insane, so I haven't had any for a few months. I figured I'd add on later when we started baby #2, but not having coverage is unnerving.
Any complanies/links to recommend?
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The best doctors in the world, regardless of their ethnicity or nationality, come to America to practice. That's a fact.
All the wealthy sheiks in the middle-east who have bucketloads of money come to the USA for treatment. Its always in the news.
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Agreed... And MattC brings up all these points but i don't see any Canadians, French, Germans, English, etc complaining about their healthcare. Hell, they were afraid to leave Canada into the US without their form of national insurance in the movie.
No shit. Why should they get free healthcare in the USA?
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Thats what i hear but Michael Moore specifically addresses this in the video.
No, he didn't even broach these things. He is so one-sided its ridiculous. Kinda like you.
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This Michael Moore is a piece of sh*t.
He makes these crappy movies like he's saving the world and when someone calls him on his bullsh*t, he calls it satire.
Ask him about his stock in Halliburton. Preachy ass mofo.
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This Michael Moore is a piece of sh*t.
He makes these crappy movies like he's saving the world and when someone calls him on his bullsh*t, he calls it satire.
Ask him about his stock in Halliburton. Preachy ass mofo.
Maybe so, maybe not....what does that have to do with the health care system in the US being in shambles???
Like him or not...this movie is needed
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Maybe so, maybe not....what does that have to do with the health care system in the US being in shambles???
Like him or not...this movie is needed
My healthcare is awesome so I'm not complaining. For those people that think they can't get any healthcare, just look at all the illegals getting just that all the while crowding up our emergency rooms. There isn't one place that has a good universal health plan so why do you think we should?
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Ask him about his stock in Halliburton. Preachy ass mofo.
Come on now, the guy's not into Halliburton. He's got mutual funds that might have been in that company if they're even public but my guess is he divested from that once he found out. Go after him & his film's content because it's much easier and he's a huge douche'.
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No shit. Why should they get free healthcare in the USA?
Good thing you said that. In the movie an American breaks his arm in the UK and gets free medical care and a nights stay in the hospital.
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Good thing you said that. In the movie an American breaks his arm in the UK and gets free medical care and a nights stay in the hospital.
And you don't think that hospital tried to collect from the guy or his insurer? They just don't give that shit away..
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And you don't think that hospital tried to collect from the guy or his insurer? They just don't give that shit away..
They didn't. When they asked about it they laughed at him and said this isn't America.
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Good thing you said that. In the movie an American breaks his arm in the UK and gets free medical care and a nights stay in the hospital.
;D
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;D
Hey man, if you want another conservative fundamentalist christian biggot in the white house be my guest. I plan on moving out of here as soon as possible if i can if things don't change for the better. Im so tired of this what would jesus do nonsense.
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Hey man, if you want another conservative fundamentalist christian biggot in the white house be my guest. I plan on moving out of here as soon as possible if i can if things don't change for the better. Im so tired of this what would jesus do nonsense.
you think other countries are perfect? you're in for a big surprise....
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you think other countries are perfect? you're in for a big surprise....
Ohh i know they have there problems. I am a political science major so i know much of their problems. Germany for instance has a Neo Nazi party on the rise. Many of these Euro countries have problems with their arabian immigrants and want them out. England has some strange laws itself.
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Ohh i know they have there problems. I am a political science major so i know much of their problems. Germany for instance has a Neo Nazi party on the rise. Many of these Euro countries have problems with their arabian immigrants and want them out. England has some strange laws itself.
cool, i am completing a ph.d. in poli sci with a focus on income redistribution policies and could talk for hours about various countries and their policies....
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Michael Moore is right about everything except his optimism. Americans care more about having more money then the health of another person.
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Michael Moore is right about everything except his optimism. Americans care more about having more money then the health of another person.
bast, it is true universally, not only in the united states
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Doctor's salarys are already decreasing by the year. If they make healthcare universal, then it should only get worse.
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Doctor's salarys are already decreasing by the year. If they make healthcare universal, then it should only get worse.
if by "universal" you mean government-controlled/socialized, then salaries would most probably not go up and even go down in the long run because doctors' salaries would come from the governmental budget which is never big enough to pay all the state employees a decent salary. in many countries with socialized medicine you simply either pay under the table to get preferential treatment, sometimes you even pay for simple things such as a hospital bed, or many physicians run their own private clinics after hours where you pay the market price and get treatment the american way, instantaneously.
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if by "universal" you mean government-controlled/socialized, then salaries would most probably not go up and even go down in the long run because doctors' salaries would come from the governmental budget which is never big enough to pay all the state employees a decent salary. in many countries with socialized medicine you simply either pay under the table to get preferential treatment, sometimes you even pay for simple things such as a hospital bed, or many physicians run their own private clinics after hours where you pay the market price and get treatment the american way, instantaneously.
I know first hand that the health care system is in shambles. I have family members working in it.
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if by "universal" you mean government-controlled/socialized, then salaries would most probably not go up and even go down in the long run because doctors' salaries would come from the governmental budget which is never big enough to pay all the state employees a decent salary. in many countries with socialized medicine you simply either pay under the table to get preferential treatment, sometimes you even pay for simple things such as a hospital bed, or many physicians run their own private clinics after hours where you pay the market price and get treatment the american way, instantaneously.
Yeah, and that would be absolutely foolish. It'd be funny to see healthcare go into the tubes when no one wants to be a doctor anymore.
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They didn't. When they asked about it they laughed at him and said this isn't America.
Well luckily this is where you have to go back to Bodybuilding. The year 1975 documented by the greatest film of all time aka "Pumping Iron". Do you really think it was a documentary? They even called it a docu-drama and it's really no different than the flic you saw. The guy puts it up there, you watch it and then you decide what's real and what's bullshit. Are you going to wait 25 years before they tell you the football throwing deal about the t'shirt was filmed a month after they left South Africa or are you going to make the decision today that something's rotten in Denmark.
If that hospital didn't try to recover some $$ then the British don't just have bad teeth they're stupid too because somebody paid for that. Most likely it goes like this, the Govt. has a budget for healthcare and healthcare uses that up but still Joe British Commoner is the one footing the bill. Now relate that to the US where we take care of 20 Million or more no tax paying mother fuckers that have no right to be here but yet ultimately get free healthcare and other entitlement services reserved for Americans. No way you could infuse an additional 10% of the UK's population that didn't pay taxes but yet took advantage of the services the Govt. offers without them having to change the rules around.
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Well luckily this is where you have to go back to Bodybuilding. The year 1975 documented by the greatest film of all time aka "Pumping Iron". Do you really think it was a documentary? They even called it a docu-drama and it's really no different than the flic you saw. The guy puts it up there, you watch it and then you decide what's real and what's bullshit. Are you going to wait 25 years before they tell you the football throwing deal about the t'shirt was filmed a month after they left South Africa or are you going to make the decision today that something's rotten in Denmark.
If that hospital didn't try to recover some $$ then the British don't just have bad teeth they're stupid too because somebody paid for that. Most likely it goes like this, the Govt. has a budget for healthcare and healthcare uses that up but still Joe British Commoner is the one footing the bill. Now relate that to the US where we take care of 20 Million or more no tax paying mother fuckers that have no right to be here but yet ultimately get free healthcare and other entitlement services reserved for Americans. No way you could infuse an additional 10% of the UK's population that didn't pay taxes but yet took advantage of the services the Govt. offers without them having to change the rules around.
True, but this is why you offer amnesty and let them repay there taxes instead of threatening to deport them. You damn conservatives keep them in the shadows and they will continue to live off our tax dollars. They way to help the poor is to bring them up. Not tax them out the ass and keep them in the dark. There will always be a lower class but you have to know how to use them. This isn't 17th century England where we try to get the most work out of people for the least pay and keep them poor.
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True, but this is why you offer amnesty and let them repay there taxes instead of threatening to deport them. You damn conservatives keep them in the shadows and they will continue to live off our tax dollars. They way to help the poor is to bring them up. Not tax them out the ass and keep them in the dark. There will always be a lower class but you have to know how to use them. This isn't 17th century England where we try to get the most work out of people for the least pay and keep them poor.
Well I'm no more conservative than the next independant thinker, you give me a leader to vote for and I'll vote for him or her. The way to equalize everything for everybody is get rid of the burden. We tried amnesty 20 years ago with Reagan and now we're back with the same shit. What're you going to do give amnesty every 20 years til we have a billion people because we'll be broke as fuck before that happens. These fuckers don't payback anything nor will they ever so instead of letting them bankrupt you and you're family ship them back to where they came from and secure the country because that's really ultimately the only choice we have. Now go tell that shit to your douchebag high school or college liberal wack job teacher.
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IF anyone has seen the movie did you like it????? And regardless of wether or not your a Michael Moore fan. What are your views on health care...
Me personally, I'm a pre-health bio/physics major and a respectable college and I completely support universal health care. I wish we had a system that would blow everyones out of the water no no money.
And another question, do your think this topic is worth choosing a candidate for. How does this topic rate compaired to the war in Iraq
I COME FROM AUSTRALIA IT WORKS GREAT.....ALL ABOUT MONEY HERE....DAMN SHAME
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Well I'm no more conservative than the next independant thinker, you give me a leader to vote for and I'll vote for him or her. The way to equalize everything for everybody is get rid of the burden. We tried amnesty 20 years ago with Reagan and now we're back with the same shit. What're you going to do give amnesty every 20 years til we have a billion people because we'll be broke as fuck before that happens. These fuckers don't payback anything nor will they ever so instead of letting them bankrupt you and you're family ship them back to where they came from and secure the country because that's really ultimately the only choice we have. Now go tell that shit to your douchebag high school or college liberal wack job teacher.
problem is, how would be logistically go about doing this?
also, studies have indicated that the net economic effect of illegal immigration in the US may be positive or at least even. also, the children of the immigrants often go on to do bigger and better things than their parents.
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I COME FROM AUSTRALIA IT WORKS GREAT.....ALL ABOUT MONEY HERE....DAMN SHAME
You pay 50% of your income in taxes homey plus only 20 million people in the whole country that's why your system works so great; we only pay 25%. Immigration in Australia is almost zero and that among other things like koala bears, kangaroos and a shitload of national parks is why it is the greatest country on the planet.
IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY $$ CHA CHING..
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problem is, how would be logistically go about doing this?
also, studies have indicated that the net economic effect of illegal immigration in the US may be positive or at least even. also, the children of the immigrants often go on to do bigger and better things than their parents.
Yeah it'll be ugly no doubt but sooner or later somebody has to do it. That person will probably become one of the greatest Presidents of all time, George Wash, Thomas J, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, JFK, Ronald Reagan... real leaders are hard to come by.
I like to say Fuck the Studies, studies don't mean shit.
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Hey man, if you want another conservative fundamentalist christian biggot in the white house be my guest. I plan on moving out of here as soon as possible if i can if things don't change for the better. Im so tired of this what would jesus do nonsense.
I dont know what this means :-\
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im happy this topic has intersest, no matter what side you are for, we are without a doubt the best country there this is bottom line!!!
But no matter what, look and democracy, the best thing ever, we should find a way with all the brilliant people we have here " because the best and the brightest do come to America" the revolutionize the health care system, i mean really turn it on its head!!! health care for everone, super high standards, the whole deal.
And i do thing the way this will come is through dialogue. So no matter what your views are for everybody has got good points.
But the bottom line is a system is pretty messed up!
Some people do need help, and it seems like the working middle class is in need of the most, and were the majority! So putting people in office with big ideas that wanna get stuff done at home, not over seas. I don't wanna my army medics and doctors treating hurt iraqis when there a tons of people over here who need it more.
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im happy this topic has intersest, no matter what side you are for, we are without a doubt the best country there this is bottom line!!!
But no matter what, look and democracy, the best thing ever, we should find a way with all the brilliant people we have here " because the best and the brightest do come to America" the revolutionize the health care system, i mean really turn it on its head!!! health care for everone, super high standards, the whole deal.
And i do thing the way this will come is through dialogue. So no matter what your views are for everybody has got good points.
But the bottom line is a system is pretty messed up!
Some people do need help, and it seems like the working middle class is in need of the most, and were the majority! So putting people in office with big ideas that wanna get stuff done at home, not over seas. I don't wanna my army medics and doctors treating hurt iraqis when there a tons of people over here who need it more.
Sweden is a better country than the US.
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Sweden is a better country than the US.
They have a lot of blonde chicks, not much diversity otherwise. I dare you to make the move..
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Universal healthcare is not free. They'll just bump our taxes up. The middle class we'll be the ones getting fuked as usual. Most pre-med students come to America to go to school not Canada or Australia.
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This is what a physician in America has to say about the issue:
Pharma and the insurance industry are evil. Moreover in the case of the health insurance industry they serve no purpose. Previously insurers would assume risk and in doing so merit some financial reward. With the advent of capitation and risk selection, they don't even do that anymore. They are leeches, that in the words of Sicko: Flat Suck.
And I can also assure you that the denials of care that Moore described were not the exceptions, but the rule. I have a patient (whose details are a bit obscured in this story) who has a number of serious medical problems. He has a history of a bleeding ulcer and recently began to have symptoms that were the same as he'd had when he had the ulcer. So I prescribed a Proton Pump Inhibitor (the one that was the preferred drug on that insurer's formulary.) They denied it saying that he had reached the limit of the number of medicines he was allowed to have. In order to have the ulcer medicine he would have to go off of one of his diabetes, blood pressure, or asthma medicines or pay for one of them out of pocket.
And sorry, but the cries of 'socialized medicine' being worse than what we have are for shit. If everyone has the same insurance, then every doctor and hospital would take it. I transfer patients every day from the ER to other hospitals when mine is perfectly able to provide them treatment and the patients want to stay at my facility. But their insurer says they won't pay for them to stay to have their appendix removed at the community hospital in their town, but demands they be transfered to a facility 40 miles away that is 'in network.' Of course they can choose to stay if they want (and we would treat them as required by the EMTALA law.) However their insurer gives them the ultimatum: be sent to another hospital they don't want or be faced with the $30,000 bill for their surgery and recovery in the hospital they do want. So the claims of not being able to 'choose your doctor or hospital' are not what you'd have in a single payer system, but are what you get every day if you are insured under an HMO, PPO, or other device used by the insurance industry to deny you care.
And that is what its like for those with insurance. For those without it can mean death or permanent disability. I see people in the ER every day who have delayed or avoided care because of uninsurance who experience severe consequences because of it. Perforated appendicitis because of a delay due to worries about costs. A child admitted to the hospital with a kidney infection that could have been easily treated with oral antibiotics days before but wasn't because of lack of access. Renal failure in a person with diabetes left untreated. People with bent forearms because while they were appropriately treated and splinted in the ER, they were unable to see an orthopedist for subsequent definitive treatment because of lack of insurance. That is stuff you expect to see in the developing countries, not the richest country in the world. Of course it is easy to see the villain in that scenario as the evil orthopedist who would not see him for free. (And I will admit ortho is one of the worst offenders for unwillingness to provide uncompensated care.) However why should one group of professionals (health care providers) be expected to shoulder the cost of health care for 15-20% of the US population simply because the country refuses to? I don't mind paying taxes to support health care for all in the US, but I do take issue with the tax being exclusively applied to doctors and nurses and PTs and RTs etc, while an attorney or programmer or businessman who makes as much or more than I do pays nothing.
The saddest part is that we already spend in GNP well more than enough to cover every man, woman, and child in the US with a health care system that the world would envy. We pay about 15% of our GNP for health care, while most developed nations spend around 7-8%. If we took all of the money that goes to 'profits and administration' (about 30%) in the for profit health insurance industry, as well as negotiating for drug prices that were on par with what the rest of the developed world we would have enough to pay for everyone.
So I think Moore is right: Its sicko.
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You pay 50% of your income in taxes homey plus only 20 million people in the whole country that's why your system works so great; we only pay 25%. Immigration in Australia is almost zero and that among other things like koala bears, kangaroos and a shitload of national parks is why it is the greatest country on the planet.
IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY $$ CHA CHING..
WRONG... the Asians come into Australia like the Mexicans do here.
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This is what a physician in America has to say about the issue:
Pharma and the insurance industry are evil. Moreover in the case of the health insurance industry they serve no purpose. Previously insurers would assume risk and in doing so merit some financial reward. With the advent of capitation and risk selection, they don't even do that anymore. They are leeches, that in the words of Sicko: Flat Suck.
And I can also assure you that the denials of care that Moore described were not the exceptions, but the rule. I have a patient (whose details are a bit obscured in this story) who has a number of serious medical problems. He has a history of a bleeding ulcer and recently began to have symptoms that were the same as he'd had when he had the ulcer. So I prescribed a Proton Pump Inhibitor (the one that was the preferred drug on that insurer's formulary.) They denied it saying that he had reached the limit of the number of medicines he was allowed to have. In order to have the ulcer medicine he would have to go off of one of his diabetes, blood pressure, or asthma medicines or pay for one of them out of pocket.
And sorry, but the cries of 'socialized medicine' being worse than what we have are for shit. If everyone has the same insurance, then every doctor and hospital would take it. I transfer patients every day from the ER to other hospitals when mine is perfectly able to provide them treatment and the patients want to stay at my facility. But their insurer says they won't pay for them to stay to have their appendix removed at the community hospital in their town, but demands they be transfered to a facility 40 miles away that is 'in network.' Of course they can choose to stay if they want (and we would treat them as required by the EMTALA law.) However their insurer gives them the ultimatum: be sent to another hospital they don't want or be faced with the $30,000 bill for their surgery and recovery in the hospital they do want. So the claims of not being able to 'choose your doctor or hospital' are not what you'd have in a single payer system, but are what you get every day if you are insured under an HMO, PPO, or other device used by the insurance industry to deny you care.
And that is what its like for those with insurance. For those without it can mean death or permanent disability. I see people in the ER every day who have delayed or avoided care because of uninsurance who experience severe consequences because of it. Perforated appendicitis because of a delay due to worries about costs. A child admitted to the hospital with a kidney infection that could have been easily treated with oral antibiotics days before but wasn't because of lack of access. Renal failure in a person with diabetes left untreated. People with bent forearms because while they were appropriately treated and splinted in the ER, they were unable to see an orthopedist for subsequent definitive treatment because of lack of insurance. That is stuff you expect to see in the developing countries, not the richest country in the world. Of course it is easy to see the villain in that scenario as the evil orthopedist who would not see him for free. (And I will admit ortho is one of the worst offenders for unwillingness to provide uncompensated care.) However why should one group of professionals (health care providers) be expected to shoulder the cost of health care for 15-20% of the US population simply because the country refuses to? I don't mind paying taxes to support health care for all in the US, but I do take issue with the tax being exclusively applied to doctors and nurses and PTs and RTs etc, while an attorney or programmer or businessman who makes as much or more than I do pays nothing.
The saddest part is that we already spend in GNP well more than enough to cover every man, woman, and child in the US with a health care system that the world would envy. We pay about 15% of our GNP for health care, while most developed nations spend around 7-8%. If we took all of the money that goes to 'profits and administration' (about 30%) in the for profit health insurance industry, as well as negotiating for drug prices that were on par with what the rest of the developed world we would have enough to pay for everyone.
So I think Moore is right: Its sicko.
Exactly. Just by reading this thread you can see who are the twisted fucks who only care about money. Education and healthcare are 2 god given rights that should not be denied to ANY human being. I think anything else is inhumane. Anyone who works in the health care industry will tell you the truth.
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Kind of hard to have it both ways. We have a for profit sytem that generates money that goes into funding the best hospitals, most cutting edge equipment and no wait even for elective surgery and the best doctors. The downside is its very expensive. My mother inlaw in British Columbia literally has to travel 500 mile for dialysis. The state of Pennsylvania has more MRI machines than all of Canada.
Bmac, that has nothing to do with Universal Health Care, ...and everything to do with a sparse population. Canada is relatively speaking, very sparsely populated. As big as our land mass is, we have less people than the state of Cali, ...and 90% of those are within 50 miles of the border. Heard we surpassed it a few years back, ...but I'm sure with the increases in that states pop, ...we're probably back to less.
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And you don't think that hospital tried to collect from the guy or his insurer? They just don't give that shit away..
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/rotflmao.gif)
{ROTFLMAO}
No disrespect intended, ...but your statement makes me howl.
I guess it just puts a huge exclamation mark on the different paradigmns existing between universal health,
...and private for-profit organizations the "manage" your health.
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This isn't 17th century England where we try to get the most work out of people for the least pay and keep them poor.
{pssst} Are you sure you meant '17th century England'? ...cause that's sounding mighty similar to the neotaint vision for the 21st century. Call it their grand vision for "The New American Century" if ya will. :P
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I just read this whole thread, ...and I gotta say 'Wow', I'm impressed! I'm seeing so many new names, articulate, thoughtful, intelligent, ...where have you guys been? I've never seen any of you in the political board before. Was this thread transfered from another board?
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If some of you guys want socialized medicine...move. Simple as that. There are plenty of countries that will give u a hand out..but your going to wait in line or get in on the Black market. Some over haul of the system is in order but nothing is free and I'm sick and tired of paying for everybody else. All that bright shiny socialist utopia crap is great in college but once your paycheck is docked for all kinds of BS programs and hand-outs....it all goes out the window.
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If some of you guys want socialized medicine...move. Simple as that. There are plenty of countries that will give u a hand out..but your going to wait in line or get in on the Black market. Some over haul of the system is in order but nothing is free and I'm sick and tired of paying for everybody else. All that bright shiny socialist utopia crap is great in college but once your paycheck is docked for all kinds of BS programs and hand-outs....it all goes out the window.
Exactly, go out and try to make a living. Better yet try to live comfortably in California on $100K a year and see how disgusted you get when you have the same problems you had when you made $12 an hour.
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California..where the average house is 550 grand....and they have 100 year morgages. There is a slot to go work in Hollywood for the Army. It will be open when I'm ready to move. Dream job except I'd have to live in a cardboard box under the Hollywood sign. I don't know how people afford it out there.
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Exactly, go out and try to make a living. Better yet try to live comfortably in California on $100K a year and see how disgusted you get when you have the same problems you had when you made $12 an hour.
Just because you have money doesn't mean all your problems are solved,
...only that you'll be able to work out those problems in a much more comfortable and posh setting. :P
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Yeah...plenty of money doesn't hurt..give me 75 grand right now..all my problems disappeare. Its not like i'll suddenly develop a coke habit. I'll take another tax cut..or u can put my social security money into a fund I'll actually see instead of having to pay for a boatload of worthless idiots.
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California..where the average house is 550 grand....and they have 100 year morgages. There is a slot to go work in Hollywood for the Army. It will be open when I'm ready to move. Dream job except I'd have to live in a cardboard box under the Hollywood sign. I don't know how people afford it out there.
you rent, that's how. most people out here could never dream of owning a house in a half decent neighborhood. that is one of the reasons i don't see myself living here for a long time.
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interesting article in today's LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/business/printedition/la-ft-medtourism2jul02,1,6770185.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-business
From the Los Angeles Times
GLOBAL REPORT
Borders are no barrier to affordable healthcare
Exploding medical costs have prompted many Americans to travel to get quality treatment for 30% to 80% off.
By Chris Taylor
Financial Times
July 2, 2007
When David Woodman announced he was going to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, for major dental work, his son Josef thought his dad had lost his mind. He had visions of untrained dentists burrowing into his father's mouth, clutching fistfuls of rusty needles.
So the younger Woodman tagged along to make sure his father would not fall victim to foreign quackery. "Instead of what I feared, he got a board-trained dentist in a great clinic, with state-of-the-art instruments and panoramic X-rays," says Woodman, who was so impressed that he ended up researching and writing the book "Patients Beyond Borders" on the phenomenon of medical tourism. "And he saved $11,000 on a mouthful of teeth."
Woodman's father is not alone in looking abroad for a medical overhaul. After all, if the American healthcare system is not completely broken, it is certainly dysfunctional: 47 million people have no health coverage, and 130 million have no dental insurance. As baby boomers age into more medical problems with spotty coverage, and would prefer not to deplete their retirement savings, they are looking at all available options.
Countries such as India, Thailand, Mexico, Costa Rica, Malaysia and Singapore cater to well-heeled foreigners. In fact about 150,000 Americans a year go abroad to have medical work done and the industry is growing by about 15% to 20% annually. The quality of care in top hospitals is said to beat most American hospitals, while providing savings of 30% to 80%. In fact, in 10 to 15 years, "the best offshore hospitals will routinely be included in networks offered to insured Americans," predicts Arnold Milstein, chief physician for the consulting firm Mercer Health & Benefits.
Not that medical tourism is a worry-free venture. From the training of foreign doctors and the conditions of far-flung facilities, to the legal limbo should something go awry, to the wisdom of getting on long-haul flights after major surgery, there are troubling questions to consider. But when patients are facing a major operation — a hip replacement, say, that could cost from $55,000 to $85,000 stateside — it seems that more Americans are proving able to get beyond their doubts.
"Many people just can't afford the procedures here in the U.S. and the value overseas is so much greater," says Patrick Marsek, managing director of Chicago-based MedRetreat, which is facilitating 650 overseas surgeries for clients this year. Although historically most Americans have gone abroad for dental or cosmetic work, he says, it is now extending to other areas — hip and knee replacements, heart surgery and hysterectomies.
There is now a cottage industry growing up around medical tourism, led by companies such as MedRetreat and Planet Hospital. Not just in the U.S., but in countries with creaky national-health systems such as Britain, where lengthy waiting lists for nonemergency surgery have spurred many to look abroad. "Now you can buy a travel package where they'll literally handle everything for you," says David Hancock, author of the newly published guide "The Complete Medical Tourist."
"They pick you up at your front door, take you to the airport, fly you in and accompany you to all clinical visits and operations. Then you're off to a five-star hotel to recuperate for two weeks before flying you back and getting a private car back home. And it all comes in at half of what it would be at a private hospital in the U.K.," Hancock says.
As Josef Woodman discovered, the steep discounts are not because of ramshackle venues and dodgy doctors. Bumrungrad Hospital in Bangkok, for instance — which caters to an estimated 400,000 foreigners a year — is known for its marble floors and luxury amenities that make it look more like a resort hotel than a healthcare facility. "When I returned from my tour of 20 hospitals overseas, I showed my son the slides, and he kept asking if they were photos of my hotel," Woodman says. "In fact they were all pictures of the wards. Often they're not just as nice as American hospitals -- they're three times as nice."
Although India and Thailand tend to get the lion's share of attention for medical tourism, Woodman suggests Singapore. It is ranked sixth in the world for healthcare by the World Health Organization and houses a facility allied with the legendary American institution Johns Hopkins. Singapore might cost you about 20% more than what you would find in India or Thailand, but it is still roughly half the cost of procedures in the U.S.
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There was a thing on 60 minutes on it..hey if it works go for it. U have to be able to afford it and if they begin to tax us for universal health..maybe u can't.
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It has occurred to me that a system for healthcare that fails 40+ million americans is not a viable system at all.
The US has the best emergency medical care in the world. That's why the wealthy come here to be treated when ill. But the US has a horrible prenatal and preventive medical system.
When the entire medical system is looked at and ranked, the US is #37 right behind Costa Rica and just ahead of Slovenia.
We're not NO. 1 in health care. We are not even close.
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
My god the Irish are kicking our ass.
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I don't know... I think maybe the Government should even get out of the Education business, privately operated schools and charter schools do a much better job.
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I don't know... I think maybe the Government should even get out of the Education business, privately operated schools and charter schools do a much better job.
you want to know why? because
1. class sizes are significantly smaller
2. private schools can selectively reject students, while public schools cannot
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free? it will be payed by tax dollars. you communist. why dont you wanna see the government run everything? wouldnt that be great?
Oh brother, as usual blowing shit out of proportion. Universal health care does not = communism ::)... Do you yell pinko commie bastards everytime you drive on tax paid roadways?
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We spend far more, but our health care is falling behind
Australia, Canada, Germany, Britain, New Zealand spend less, serve better
Filmmaker Michael Moore might be onto something in his new documentary, "Sicko." These days, fewer Americans are buying the claim that the United States has the best medical system in the world.
With polls showing that health care is Americans' top domestic concern, politicians are scrambling to propose reforms. Consumers are buying lower-cost online drugs from foreign sources, and some even become "medical tourists" to obtain affordable treatment in other countries.
Studies show Americans aren't healthier, nor are they living longer than people in industrialized nations that spend half per capita of what we do on care.
For example, a 2007 Commonwealth Fund study that compared the United States with five other nations -- Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom -- ranked the U.S. health system last. The study looked at access to health care, efficiency, equity and healthy living, among other measures.
And a 2000 report by the World Health Organization, the most recent available from the U.N. organization, put the United States 37th out of 190 nations in health care services -- between Costa Rica and Slovenia. France was rated No. 1, the United Kingdom in the 18th spot, Canada at No. 30 and Cuba a couple of notches behind the United States in the 39th spot.
In a New York Times/CBS poll conducted in March, health care ranked as the top domestic concern. And in "Sicko," Moore highlights Americans' disillusionment with their health care system, comparing it to systems in other countries, including France, Canada, Britain and Cuba.
Many health experts say Moore might be glorifying other systems -- particularly the once in France. Still, they accept his argument that other nations are doing a better job than the United States in providing coverage for all residents and making sure people have access to primary care and preventive services.
The United States has a private system for all but the poor and elderly. The countries lauded in "Sicko" have national systems funded primarily through the government.
"We, unlike any other country, have 46 million people who are uninsured, and that raises a whole host of health and financial issues," said Ken Thorpe, professor of health policy at Emory University.
Those issues are undermining the health of Americans, several studies have shown. While the United States may have cutting-edge medical technologies, many people lack access to such advanced care, limiting any positive health impact.
"Ours is really is a sick-care system. We have tremendous technical capabilities to deal with people with serious illness," Thorpe said. He argues, though, that it is far more cost-effective to prevent people from getting sick or at least catch illnesses early through better monitoring.
Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund, a nonprofit foundation that supports health care research, said many of the problems associated with poor primary care can be traced to the fragmented structure of our health care system. U.S. patients often have trouble seeing the same doctor on short notice, see multiple doctors who sometimes fail to communicate with one another and forgo care because they don't want to spend the money.
"We tend to have more medical errors than other countries, in part because of this highly specialized, fragmented system," she said. "More things can go wrong and do go wrong."
Moore's film has been criticized for showing the positive side of health systems in other countries while glossing over negative aspects.
"There's almost only positive attributes about the British, the French and Cuban system. Invariably, no system is perfect. I think this sort of detracts from his credibility on these comparisons," said Stephen Zuckerman, health economist with the Urban Institute in Washington, D.C.
Moore ignores the fact that private coverage still exists in most countries with nationalized health care. And he avoids showing solutions other than adoption of a government-funded system, often known as single-payer.
"He's trying to be entertaining. But if the objective here is to kick off a serious study about the British and Cuba as an alternative to the U.S. system, you need a lot more than what was presented in 'Sicko,' " Zuckerman said.
In "Sicko," Moore addresses one of the biggest criticisms of the Canadian system -- long wait times for care -- by asking patients in an Ontario emergency room how long they had to wait. All respond that they got treated quickly.
But the Commonwealth Fund report found that both U.S. and Canadian patients were more likely to wait six days or more for an appointment. Waiting times for specialists or elective surgery were shortest in the United States and Germany. U.S. patients were less likely than Canadians to have to wait more than four hours in an emergency room, the report found.
Moore also implies that care in Canada, Britain and France is virtually free. He dismisses claims that the French are overtaxed by showing the comfortable life of a French couple who even have money left over to travel.
But la vie francaise isn't entirely en rose. The country has a high unemployment rate of 9 percent along with high taxes. In France, taxes amount to more than 44 percent of gross domestic product, compared with 26 percent in the United States, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
Still, the United States spends a higher percentage of its gross domestic product on health than any other country -- more than 16 percent compared to France's 10.7 percent. The United States spends $6,102 per person in public and private funds compared with $3,159 per capita spending in France.
Americans living in France generally praise the French system.
Roderick Beck, a former New Yorker who moved to Paris this spring, said the profit motive that drives insurance companies as well as physicians is the central problem with the U.S. health system.
"What are those insurance companies doing at the most fundamental level? Collecting cash and paying out benefits," said Beck, 45, who works for a telecommunications firm. "Governments using taxation and a simple health care card do that more efficiently than an insurance based system."
Bruce Gain, 41, a U.S. journalist living in France since 2003, said the French system is better because the government strictly controls prices and the number of doctors per capita is much higher than the United States.
"As far as access to medial technology goes, there are more doctors here to offer the latest treatments and drugs at affordable costs," Gain said.
Davis, of the Commonwealth Fund, said the United States does not need to adopt a nationalized health care to improve efficiency. For example, she said, the Netherlands has a well-developed system for after-hours primary care that would reduce emergency room visits.
"There's a lot we can learn from other countries," she said.
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Unhealthy comparisons
The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked the United States 37th out of 191 countries in health care services.
U.S. life expectancy is nearly three years shorter on average than Canadians' and about two years less than that of the French.
The United States spent more than $6,000 per person on health care in 2004, about double what France, Germany and Canada spent per capita.
Sources: World Health Organization, United Nations, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/10/HEALTH.TMP&tsp=1 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/10/HEALTH.TMP&tsp=1)
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All you are doing is stirring shit with little or no back ground information. You are like a child trying to participate in an adult conversation.
You don't know why? He really is a child trying to participate in an adult conversation. There is probably more intellectual and significance content under your toenail, than in his +14000 posts put together...
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hey bluto, wake up, the u.s. already has socialized/government healthcare.
ever hear of medicare or veterans healthcare? both are government run/controlled.
the elderly never complain about their government controlled/communist healthcare, the reason why? it works very nicely.
understand a topic before you discuss.
The elderly never complain???Are you kidding...They are the ones who are doing all the complaining...Most have to have supplemental healthcare on top of medicare to cover what medicare doesn't cover...If someone on medicare has to spend some time in a hospital, they have to pay a $900 dollar deductable for every stay...And that only covers the hospital...Not doctors,meds,ect..Do you realise how much money meds cost most of these elderly people who are on just medicare?
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They didn't. When they asked about it they laughed at him and said this isn't America.
Americans are cheap - that much I have worked out ... they'll spend millions of dollars to make sure no-one gets anything for free when it was easier giving it away in the first place.
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If some of you guys want socialized medicine...move. Simple as that. There are plenty of countries that will give u a hand out..but your going to wait in line or get in on the Black market. Some over haul of the system is in order but nothing is free and I'm sick and tired of paying for everybody else. All that bright shiny socialist utopia crap is great in college but once your paycheck is docked for all kinds of BS programs and hand-outs....it all goes out the window.
You think that free(payed from taxes) health care put you straight in to communist hell? If you pay some more taxes to make sure there is health care for everybody, it ruins your life for good? Just how Fuc*king simple you can be? You really think that it is more noble task to protect enormous income of some filthy rich industry, instead of helping those who cannot help themselves? It may not have catch your eyes, or it hasn't been in your news yet, but communism is dead, and even the Russians has adopt capitalistic way of life. Just about only place in this globe with a fear of communism is great USA, which is filled with the most ignorant people in this universe. Just by that you guys earn that 37'th placing in health ranking.
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You think that free(payed from taxes) health care put you straight in to communist hell? If you pay some more taxes to make sure there is health care for everybody, it ruins your life for good? Just how Fuc*king simple you can be? You really think that it is more noble task to protect enormous income of some filthy rich industry, instead of helping those who cannot help themselves? It may not have catch your eyes, or it hasn't been in your news yet, but communism is dead, and even the Russians has adopt capitalistic way of life. Just about only place in this globe with a fear of communism is great USA, which is filled with the most ignorant people in this universe. Just by that you guys earn that 37'th placing in health ranking.
good post... ...
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No, it is not a human right. You have no right to anything beyond what you earn from the moment you're born until the moment you die. It bothers me that socialists now consider services provided by the work of others to be their "right". You are no more entitled to health care paid for by others than you are entitled to any other property of theirs.
I had this discussion with my aunt. This implies that socialized health care creates a healthier economy. It does not. Michael Moore says we should "eliminate the profit motive". What offends me the most is that the only reason the quality of care in the USA is as high as it is is because of the profit motive - BECAUSE of capitalism - Michael Moore suggests that we can have the same degree of production and efficiency without a profit incentive! This is so absurd it is pollution to my brain to even read it. Without the profit motivator, production decreases or halts completely - it seems that just like basic economics, like the Second Amendment, is something Michael Moore has absolutely no idea about.
It's called the Big Tradeoff - fairness and efficiency. If the government forcibly redistributes the pie, the pie becomes smaller for everyone.
Moreover, perverse things happen in socialized medicine. Like 16-month waiting lists for surgery. Like three lithotripters in a major city, wheras in America there are 300 in a similar city. Like the system subsidizing the care of upper middle class people who could easily afford it themselves.
There is plenty of suffering in the world, and what galls me is the leftist view that redistributing money to the less well off in North America is the best place to do so. If you truly wanted to minimize suffering, you'd hand that money to starving Africans. I say, let a rich world renal victim die and spend the thousands of government dollars saving literally hundreds of people in Africa. THIS would be the compassionate thing to do. No?
Of course, the real way to minimize suffering is to have fair rules. Trade with Africans, have a large economy, and things will be best in the long run. Even if people die in the meantime. Under socialist policies, MORE people die and get sick. This is another thing that offends me about socialists, the fact that they don't understand that both capitalism and socialism cause harm, but capitalism causes the least amount of harm of the two.
Capitalism and socialism?
Universal health care isn't socialist. It only means that a part of the tax will be paid to both public and private hospitals, providing health care that will be partially "free".
Technically not free, since you would pay through taxes.
Also, a healthy workforce is the most beneficial for a nation.
To keep as many as possible healthy, is in the best interest of a country. It's just like running a business, you want to have your employees healthy, happy and hardworking.
The danger is that hospitals that don't have to compete, don't rationalize and develops, becomes stale.
That could be prevented by letting private enterprises compete for the tax funds (the clients), but keep it under strict anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws.
-Hedge
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I might not know enough about it but in my opinion Health Care isn't a right? Thats like saying access to food and shelter is your right. I don't understand why anyone would want the government to get into something like this? Our governments medaling in to much shit as it is.... :-\
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I keep reading that the American government handles so much and it's run so poorly. So why isn't a plan being made for better quality of services from the government.
Then possibly better decisions could be made on what the government can efficiently handle or not.
Taking into account the Tax system.
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in Europe what is the cost of going to the dentist. physiotherapist, optometrist?
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I keep reading that the American government handles so much and it's run so poorly. So why isn't a plan being made for better quality of services from the government.
Then possibly better decisions could be made on what the government can efficiently handle or not.
Taking into account the Tax system.
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in Europe what is the cost of going to the dentist. physiotherapist, optometrist?
Because its the most corrupt in the world...Lobbyists have help ruin our system of government...Nothing is done without someone getting a payout...
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Because its the most corrupt in the world...Lobbyists have help ruin our system of government...Nothing is done without someone getting a payout...
that is true- the US is corrupt
the most corrupt? hell no
There are many countries that are far worse
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that is true- the US is corrupt
the most corrupt? hell no
There are many countries that are far worse
I wouldn't call USA corrupt.
I would say that corruption exists in the USA.
But corrupt countries, that's Nigeria, Gabon, Somalia and even Russia.
Big difference IMO.
Fight the corruption in USA, sure. It's important. But be careful to make a distinction as well, don't become like one of those conspiracy theorists who believes everything is a big setup.
-Hedge
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I wouldn't call USA corrupt.
I would say that corruption exists in the USA.
But corrupt countries, that's Nigeria, Gabon, Somalia and even Russia.
Big difference IMO.
Fight the corruption in USA, sure. It's important. But be careful to make a distinction as well, don't become like one of those conspiracy theorists who believes everything is a big setup.
-Hedge
add zimbabwe