Author Topic: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???  (Read 13773 times)

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2007, 03:49:45 AM »
You pay 50% of your income in taxes homey plus only 20 million people in the whole country that's why your system works so great; we only pay 25%.  Immigration in Australia is almost zero and that among other things like koala bears, kangaroos and a shitload of national parks is why it is the greatest country on the planet.   

IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY $$ CHA CHING..


WRONG... the Asians come into Australia like the Mexicans do here.

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2007, 03:52:58 AM »
This is what a physician in America has to say about the issue:

Pharma and the insurance industry are evil. Moreover in the case of the health insurance industry they serve no purpose. Previously insurers would assume risk and in doing so merit some financial reward. With the advent of capitation and risk selection, they don't even do that anymore. They are leeches, that in the words of Sicko: Flat Suck.

And I can also assure you that the denials of care that Moore described were not the exceptions, but the rule. I have a patient (whose details are a bit obscured in this story) who has a number of serious medical problems. He has a history of a bleeding ulcer and recently began to have symptoms that were the same as he'd had when he had the ulcer. So I prescribed a Proton Pump Inhibitor (the one that was the preferred drug on that insurer's formulary.) They denied it saying that he had reached the limit of the number of medicines he was allowed to have. In order to have the ulcer medicine he would have to go off of one of his diabetes, blood pressure, or asthma medicines or pay for one of them out of pocket.

And sorry, but the cries of 'socialized medicine' being worse than what we have are for shit. If everyone has the same insurance, then every doctor and hospital would take it. I transfer patients every day from the ER to other hospitals when mine is perfectly able to provide them treatment and the patients want to stay at my facility. But their insurer says they won't pay for them to stay to have their appendix removed at the community hospital in their town, but demands they be transfered to a facility 40 miles away that is 'in network.' Of course they can choose to stay if they want (and we would treat them as required by the EMTALA law.) However their insurer gives them the ultimatum: be sent to another hospital they don't want or be faced with the $30,000 bill for their surgery and recovery in the hospital they do want. So the claims of not being able to 'choose your doctor or hospital' are not what you'd have in a single payer system, but are what you get every day if you are insured under an HMO, PPO, or other device used by the insurance industry to deny you care.

And that is what its like for those with insurance. For those without it can mean death or permanent disability. I see people in the ER every day who have delayed or avoided care because of uninsurance who experience severe consequences because of it. Perforated appendicitis because of a delay due to worries about costs. A child admitted to the hospital with a kidney infection that could have been easily treated with oral antibiotics days before but wasn't because of lack of access. Renal failure in a person with diabetes left untreated. People with bent forearms because while they were appropriately treated and splinted in the ER, they were unable to see an orthopedist for subsequent definitive treatment because of lack of insurance. That is stuff you expect to see in the developing countries, not the richest country in the world. Of course it is easy to see the villain in that scenario as the evil orthopedist who would not see him for free. (And I will admit ortho is one of the worst offenders for unwillingness to provide uncompensated care.) However why should one group of professionals (health care providers) be expected to shoulder the cost of health care for 15-20% of the US population simply because the country refuses to? I don't mind paying taxes to support health care for all in the US, but I do take issue with the tax being exclusively applied to doctors and nurses and PTs and RTs etc, while an attorney or programmer or businessman who makes as much or more than I do pays nothing.

The saddest part is that we already spend in GNP well more than enough to cover every man, woman, and child in the US with a health care system that the world would envy. We pay about 15% of our GNP for health care, while most developed nations spend around 7-8%. If we took all of the money that goes to 'profits and administration' (about 30%) in the for profit health insurance industry, as well as negotiating for drug prices that were on par with what the rest of the developed world we would have enough to pay for everyone.

So I think Moore is right: Its sicko.
Exactly. Just by reading this thread you can see who are the twisted fucks who only care about money. Education and healthcare are 2 god given rights that should not be denied to ANY human being. I think anything else is inhumane. Anyone who works in the health care industry will tell you the truth.

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2007, 06:39:31 AM »
Kind of hard to have it both ways. We have a for profit sytem that generates money that goes into funding the best hospitals, most cutting edge equipment and no wait even for elective surgery and the best doctors. The downside is its very expensive. My mother inlaw in British Columbia literally has to travel 500 mile for dialysis. The state of Pennsylvania has more MRI machines than all of Canada.

Bmac, that has nothing to do with Universal Health Care, ...and everything to do with a sparse population. Canada is relatively speaking, very sparsely populated. As big as our land mass is, we have less people than the state of Cali, ...and 90% of those are within 50 miles of the border. Heard we surpassed it a few years back, ...but I'm sure with the increases in that states pop, ...we're probably back to less.
w

24KT

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2007, 06:49:54 AM »
And you don't think that hospital tried to collect from the guy or his insurer?  They just don't give that shit away..


     
{ROTFLMAO}

No disrespect intended, ...but your statement makes me howl.
I guess it just puts a huge exclamation mark on the different paradigmns existing between universal health,
...and private for-profit organizations the "manage" your health.
w

24KT

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2007, 07:03:30 AM »
This isn't 17th century England where we try to get the most work out of people for the least pay and keep them poor.

{pssst} Are you sure you meant '17th century England'? ...cause that's sounding mighty similar to the neotaint vision for the 21st century. Call it their grand vision for "The New American Century" if ya will.  :P
w

24KT

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2007, 07:20:08 AM »
I just read this whole thread, ...and I gotta say 'Wow', I'm impressed! I'm seeing so many new names, articulate, thoughtful, intelligent, ...where have you guys been? I've never seen any of you in the political board before. Was this thread transfered from another board?
w

headhuntersix

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2007, 07:21:01 AM »
If some of you guys want socialized medicine...move. Simple as that. There are plenty of countries that will give u a hand out..but your going to wait in line or get in on the Black market. Some over haul of the system is in order but nothing is free and I'm sick and tired of paying for everybody else. All that bright shiny socialist utopia crap is great in college but once your paycheck is docked for all kinds of BS programs and hand-outs....it all goes out the window.
L

Undercover Supp Guy

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2007, 07:37:43 AM »
If some of you guys want socialized medicine...move. Simple as that. There are plenty of countries that will give u a hand out..but your going to wait in line or get in on the Black market. Some over haul of the system is in order but nothing is free and I'm sick and tired of paying for everybody else. All that bright shiny socialist utopia crap is great in college but once your paycheck is docked for all kinds of BS programs and hand-outs....it all goes out the window.

Exactly, go out and try to make a living.  Better yet try to live comfortably in California on $100K a year and see how disgusted you get when you have the same problems you had when you made $12 an hour.

headhuntersix

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2007, 07:42:27 AM »
California..where the average house is 550 grand....and they have 100 year morgages. There is a slot to go work in Hollywood for the Army. It will be open when I'm ready to move. Dream job except I'd have to live in a cardboard box  under the Hollywood sign. I don't know how people afford it out there.
L

24KT

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2007, 07:46:18 AM »
Exactly, go out and try to make a living.  Better yet try to live comfortably in California on $100K a year and see how disgusted you get when you have the same problems you had when you made $12 an hour.

Just because you have money doesn't mean all your problems are solved,
...only that you'll be able to work out those problems in a much more comfortable and posh setting.  :P
w

headhuntersix

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2007, 07:52:33 AM »
Yeah...plenty of money doesn't hurt..give me 75 grand right now..all my problems disappeare. Its not like i'll suddenly develop a coke habit. I'll take another tax cut..or u can put my social security money into a fund I'll actually see instead of having to pay for a boatload of worthless idiots.
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willie mosconi

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2007, 07:59:12 AM »
California..where the average house is 550 grand....and they have 100 year morgages. There is a slot to go work in Hollywood for the Army. It will be open when I'm ready to move. Dream job except I'd have to live in a cardboard box  under the Hollywood sign. I don't know how people afford it out there.

you rent, that's how. most people out here could never dream of owning a house in a half decent neighborhood. that is one of the reasons i don't see myself living here for a long time.

willie mosconi

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2007, 11:39:03 AM »
interesting article in today's LA Times







 http://www.latimes.com/business/printedition/la-ft-medtourism2jul02,1,6770185.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-business
From the Los Angeles Times
GLOBAL REPORT
Borders are no barrier to affordable healthcare
Exploding medical costs have prompted many Americans to travel to get quality treatment for 30% to 80% off.
By Chris Taylor
Financial Times

July 2, 2007

When David Woodman announced he was going to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, for major dental work, his son Josef thought his dad had lost his mind. He had visions of untrained dentists burrowing into his father's mouth, clutching fistfuls of rusty needles.

So the younger Woodman tagged along to make sure his father would not fall victim to foreign quackery. "Instead of what I feared, he got a board-trained dentist in a great clinic, with state-of-the-art instruments and panoramic X-rays," says Woodman, who was so impressed that he ended up researching and writing the book "Patients Beyond Borders" on the phenomenon of medical tourism. "And he saved $11,000 on a mouthful of teeth."

Woodman's father is not alone in looking abroad for a medical overhaul. After all, if the American healthcare system is not completely broken, it is certainly dysfunctional: 47 million people have no health coverage, and 130 million have no dental insurance. As baby boomers age into more medical problems with spotty coverage, and would prefer not to deplete their retirement savings, they are looking at all available options.

Countries such as India, Thailand, Mexico, Costa Rica, Malaysia and Singapore cater to well-heeled foreigners. In fact about 150,000 Americans a year go abroad to have medical work done and the industry is growing by about 15% to 20% annually. The quality of care in top hospitals is said to beat most American hospitals, while providing savings of 30% to 80%. In fact, in 10 to 15 years, "the best offshore hospitals will routinely be included in networks offered to insured Americans," predicts Arnold Milstein, chief physician for the consulting firm Mercer Health & Benefits.

Not that medical tourism is a worry-free venture. From the training of foreign doctors and the conditions of far-flung facilities, to the legal limbo should something go awry, to the wisdom of getting on long-haul flights after major surgery, there are troubling questions to consider. But when patients are facing a major operation — a hip replacement, say, that could cost from $55,000 to $85,000 stateside — it seems that more Americans are proving able to get beyond their doubts.

"Many people just can't afford the procedures here in the U.S. and the value overseas is so much greater," says Patrick Marsek, managing director of Chicago-based MedRetreat, which is facilitating 650 overseas surgeries for clients this year. Although historically most Americans have gone abroad for dental or cosmetic work, he says, it is now extending to other areas — hip and knee replacements, heart surgery and hysterectomies.

There is now a cottage industry growing up around medical tourism, led by companies such as MedRetreat and Planet Hospital. Not just in the U.S., but in countries with creaky national-health systems such as Britain, where lengthy waiting lists for nonemergency surgery have spurred many to look abroad. "Now you can buy a travel package where they'll literally handle everything for you," says David Hancock, author of the newly published guide "The Complete Medical Tourist."

"They pick you up at your front door, take you to the airport, fly you in and accompany you to all clinical visits and operations. Then you're off to a five-star hotel to recuperate for two weeks before flying you back and getting a private car back home. And it all comes in at half of what it would be at a private hospital in the U.K.," Hancock says.

As Josef Woodman discovered, the steep discounts are not because of ramshackle venues and dodgy doctors. Bumrungrad Hospital in Bangkok, for instance — which caters to an estimated 400,000 foreigners a year — is known for its marble floors and luxury amenities that make it look more like a resort hotel than a healthcare facility. "When I returned from my tour of 20 hospitals overseas, I showed my son the slides, and he kept asking if they were photos of my hotel," Woodman says. "In fact they were all pictures of the wards. Often they're not just as nice as American hospitals -- they're three times as nice."

Although India and Thailand tend to get the lion's share of attention for medical tourism, Woodman suggests Singapore. It is ranked sixth in the world for healthcare by the World Health Organization and houses a facility allied with the legendary American institution Johns Hopkins. Singapore might cost you about 20% more than what you would find in India or Thailand, but it is still roughly half the cost of procedures in the U.S.

headhuntersix

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2007, 11:41:32 AM »
There was a thing on 60 minutes on it..hey if it works go for it. U have to be able to afford it and if they begin to tax us for universal health..maybe u can't.
L

Decker

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2007, 12:43:06 PM »
It has occurred to me that a system for healthcare that fails 40+ million americans is not a viable system at all.

The US has the best emergency medical care in the world.  That's why the wealthy come here to be treated when ill.  But the US has a horrible prenatal and preventive medical system.

When the entire medical system is looked at and ranked, the US is #37 right behind Costa Rica and just ahead of Slovenia.

We're not NO. 1 in health care.  We are not even close.

1         France
2         Italy
3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta
6         Singapore
7         Spain
8         Oman
9         Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
37        United  States  of  America
38        Slovenia
39        Cuba
40        Brunei
41        New Zealand
42        Bahrain
43        Croatia
44        Qatar
45        Kuwait
46        Barbados
47        Thailand
48        Czech Republic
49        Malaysia
50        Poland
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

My god the Irish are kicking our ass.

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2007, 12:19:41 PM »
I don't know... I think maybe the Government should even get out of the Education business, privately operated schools and charter schools do a much better job.
S

willie mosconi

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2007, 12:57:18 PM »
I don't know... I think maybe the Government should even get out of the Education business, privately operated schools and charter schools do a much better job.

you want to know why? because

1. class sizes are significantly smaller

2. private schools can selectively reject students, while public schools cannot

Hugo Chavez

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2007, 12:53:38 AM »
free? it will be payed by tax dollars. you communist. why dont you wanna see the government run everything? wouldnt that be great?

Oh brother, as usual blowing shit out of proportion.  Universal health care does not = communism  ::)... Do you yell pinko commie bastards everytime you drive on tax paid roadways?

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2007, 11:51:04 PM »
Quote
We spend far more, but our health care is falling behind
Australia, Canada, Germany, Britain, New Zealand spend less, serve better


Filmmaker Michael Moore might be onto something in his new documentary, "Sicko." These days, fewer Americans are buying the claim that the United States has the best medical system in the world.

With polls showing that health care is Americans' top domestic concern, politicians are scrambling to propose reforms. Consumers are buying lower-cost online drugs from foreign sources, and some even become "medical tourists" to obtain affordable treatment in other countries.

Studies show Americans aren't healthier, nor are they living longer than people in industrialized nations that spend half per capita of what we do on care.

For example, a 2007 Commonwealth Fund study that compared the United States with five other nations -- Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom -- ranked the U.S. health system last. The study looked at access to health care, efficiency, equity and healthy living, among other measures.

And a 2000 report by the World Health Organization, the most recent available from the U.N. organization, put the United States 37th out of 190 nations in health care services -- between Costa Rica and Slovenia. France was rated No. 1, the United Kingdom in the 18th spot, Canada at No. 30 and Cuba a couple of notches behind the United States in the 39th spot.

In a New York Times/CBS poll conducted in March, health care ranked as the top domestic concern. And in "Sicko," Moore highlights Americans' disillusionment with their health care system, comparing it to systems in other countries, including France, Canada, Britain and Cuba.

Many health experts say Moore might be glorifying other systems -- particularly the once in France. Still, they accept his argument that other nations are doing a better job than the United States in providing coverage for all residents and making sure people have access to primary care and preventive services.

The United States has a private system for all but the poor and elderly. The countries lauded in "Sicko" have national systems funded primarily through the government.

"We, unlike any other country, have 46 million people who are uninsured, and that raises a whole host of health and financial issues," said Ken Thorpe, professor of health policy at Emory University.

Those issues are undermining the health of Americans, several studies have shown. While the United States may have cutting-edge medical technologies, many people lack access to such advanced care, limiting any positive health impact.

"Ours is really is a sick-care system. We have tremendous technical capabilities to deal with people with serious illness," Thorpe said. He argues, though, that it is far more cost-effective to prevent people from getting sick or at least catch illnesses early through better monitoring.

Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund, a nonprofit foundation that supports health care research, said many of the problems associated with poor primary care can be traced to the fragmented structure of our health care system. U.S. patients often have trouble seeing the same doctor on short notice, see multiple doctors who sometimes fail to communicate with one another and forgo care because they don't want to spend the money.

"We tend to have more medical errors than other countries, in part because of this highly specialized, fragmented system," she said. "More things can go wrong and do go wrong."

Moore's film has been criticized for showing the positive side of health systems in other countries while glossing over negative aspects.

"There's almost only positive attributes about the British, the French and Cuban system. Invariably, no system is perfect. I think this sort of detracts from his credibility on these comparisons," said Stephen Zuckerman, health economist with the Urban Institute in Washington, D.C.

Moore ignores the fact that private coverage still exists in most countries with nationalized health care. And he avoids showing solutions other than adoption of a government-funded system, often known as single-payer.

"He's trying to be entertaining. But if the objective here is to kick off a serious study about the British and Cuba as an alternative to the U.S. system, you need a lot more than what was presented in 'Sicko,' " Zuckerman said.

In "Sicko," Moore addresses one of the biggest criticisms of the Canadian system -- long wait times for care -- by asking patients in an Ontario emergency room how long they had to wait. All respond that they got treated quickly.

But the Commonwealth Fund report found that both U.S. and Canadian patients were more likely to wait six days or more for an appointment. Waiting times for specialists or elective surgery were shortest in the United States and Germany. U.S. patients were less likely than Canadians to have to wait more than four hours in an emergency room, the report found.

Moore also implies that care in Canada, Britain and France is virtually free. He dismisses claims that the French are overtaxed by showing the comfortable life of a French couple who even have money left over to travel.

But la vie francaise isn't entirely en rose. The country has a high unemployment rate of 9 percent along with high taxes. In France, taxes amount to more than 44 percent of gross domestic product, compared with 26 percent in the United States, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

Still, the United States spends a higher percentage of its gross domestic product on health than any other country -- more than 16 percent compared to France's 10.7 percent. The United States spends $6,102 per person in public and private funds compared with $3,159 per capita spending in France.

Americans living in France generally praise the French system.

Roderick Beck, a former New Yorker who moved to Paris this spring, said the profit motive that drives insurance companies as well as physicians is the central problem with the U.S. health system.

"What are those insurance companies doing at the most fundamental level? Collecting cash and paying out benefits," said Beck, 45, who works for a telecommunications firm. "Governments using taxation and a simple health care card do that more efficiently than an insurance based system."

Bruce Gain, 41, a U.S. journalist living in France since 2003, said the French system is better because the government strictly controls prices and the number of doctors per capita is much higher than the United States.

"As far as access to medial technology goes, there are more doctors here to offer the latest treatments and drugs at affordable costs," Gain said.

Davis, of the Commonwealth Fund, said the United States does not need to adopt a nationalized health care to improve efficiency. For example, she said, the Netherlands has a well-developed system for after-hours primary care that would reduce emergency room visits.

"There's a lot we can learn from other countries," she said.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unhealthy comparisons
The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked the United States 37th out of 191 countries in health care services.

U.S. life expectancy is nearly three years shorter on average than Canadians' and about two years less than that of the French.

The United States spent more than $6,000 per person on health care in 2004, about double what France, Germany and Canada spent per capita.

Sources: World Health Organization, United Nations, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/10/HEALTH.TMP&tsp=1

GreatFinn

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2007, 08:00:37 AM »
All you are doing is stirring shit with little or no back ground information. You are like a child trying to participate in an adult conversation.

You don't know why? He really is a child trying to participate in an adult conversation. There is probably more intellectual and significance content under your toenail, than in his +14000 posts put together... 

Wombat

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2007, 06:33:33 AM »
hey bluto, wake up, the u.s. already has socialized/government healthcare.

ever hear of medicare or veterans healthcare? both are government run/controlled.

the elderly never complain about their government controlled/communist healthcare, the reason why? it works very nicely.

understand a topic before you discuss.


The elderly never complain???Are you kidding...They are the ones who are doing all the complaining...Most have to have supplemental healthcare on top of medicare to cover what medicare doesn't cover...If someone on medicare has to spend some time in a hospital, they have to pay a $900 dollar deductable for every stay...And that only covers the hospital...Not doctors,meds,ect..Do you realise how much money meds cost most of these elderly people who are on just medicare?

gcb

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2007, 01:52:51 AM »
They didn't. When they asked about it they laughed at him and said this isn't America.

Americans are cheap - that much I have worked out ... they'll spend millions of dollars to make sure no-one gets anything for free when it was easier giving it away in the first place.

GreatFinn

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2007, 01:42:44 PM »
If some of you guys want socialized medicine...move. Simple as that. There are plenty of countries that will give u a hand out..but your going to wait in line or get in on the Black market. Some over haul of the system is in order but nothing is free and I'm sick and tired of paying for everybody else. All that bright shiny socialist utopia crap is great in college but once your paycheck is docked for all kinds of BS programs and hand-outs....it all goes out the window.

You think that free(payed from taxes) health care put you straight in to communist hell?  If you pay some more taxes to make sure there is health care for everybody, it ruins your life for good?  Just how Fuc*king simple you can be? You really think that it is more noble task to protect enormous income of some filthy rich industry, instead of helping those who cannot help themselves? It may not have catch your eyes, or it hasn't been in your news yet, but communism is dead, and even the Russians has adopt capitalistic way of life. Just about only place in this globe with a fear of communism is great USA, which is filled with the most ignorant people in this universe. Just by that you guys earn that 37'th placing in health ranking. 

Wombat

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2007, 02:12:41 PM »
You think that free(payed from taxes) health care put you straight in to communist hell?  If you pay some more taxes to make sure there is health care for everybody, it ruins your life for good?  Just how Fuc*king simple you can be? You really think that it is more noble task to protect enormous income of some filthy rich industry, instead of helping those who cannot help themselves? It may not have catch your eyes, or it hasn't been in your news yet, but communism is dead, and even the Russians has adopt capitalistic way of life. Just about only place in this globe with a fear of communism is great USA, which is filled with the most ignorant people in this universe. Just by that you guys earn that 37'th placing in health ranking. 

good post... ...

Hedgehog

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2007, 04:02:22 PM »
No, it is not a human right.  You have no right to anything beyond what you earn from the moment you're born until the moment you die.  It bothers me that socialists now consider services provided by the work of others to be their "right".  You are no more entitled to health care paid for by others than you are entitled to any other property of theirs.

I had this discussion with my aunt.  This implies that socialized health care creates a healthier economy.  It does not.  Michael Moore says we should "eliminate the profit motive".  What offends me the most is that the only reason the quality of care in the USA is as high as it is is because of the profit motive - BECAUSE of capitalism - Michael Moore suggests that we can have the same degree of production and efficiency without a profit incentive!  This is so absurd it is pollution to my brain to even read it.  Without the profit motivator, production decreases or halts completely - it seems that just like basic economics, like the Second Amendment, is something Michael Moore has absolutely no idea about.

It's called the Big Tradeoff - fairness and efficiency. If the government forcibly redistributes the pie, the pie becomes smaller for everyone.

Moreover, perverse things happen in socialized medicine. Like 16-month waiting lists for surgery. Like three lithotripters in a major city, wheras in America there are 300 in a similar city. Like the system subsidizing the care of upper middle class people who could easily afford it themselves.

There is plenty of suffering in the world, and what galls me is the leftist view that redistributing money to the less well off in North America is the best place to do so. If you truly wanted to minimize suffering, you'd hand that money to starving Africans. I say, let a rich world renal victim die and spend the thousands of government dollars saving literally hundreds of people in Africa. THIS would be the compassionate thing to do. No?

Of course, the real way to minimize suffering is to have fair rules. Trade with Africans, have a large economy, and things will be best in the long run. Even if people die in the meantime.  Under socialist policies, MORE people die and get sick.  This is another thing that offends me about socialists, the fact that they don't understand that both capitalism and socialism cause harm, but capitalism causes the least amount of harm of the two.

Capitalism and socialism?

Universal health care isn't socialist. It only means that a part of the tax will be paid to both public and private hospitals, providing health care that will be partially "free".

Technically not free, since you would pay through taxes.

Also, a healthy workforce is the most beneficial for a nation.

To keep as many as possible healthy, is in the best interest of a country. It's just like running a business, you want to have your employees healthy, happy and hardworking.

The danger is that hospitals that don't have to compete, don't rationalize and develops, becomes stale.

That could be prevented by letting private enterprises compete for the tax funds (the clients), but keep it under strict anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws.

-Hedge
As empty as paradise