Author Topic: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod  (Read 34532 times)

Larsen

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FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« on: January 01, 2009, 03:57:57 PM »
Have any of you tried doing this style of training. Jay Cutler will be working with Hany for the 2009 season doing this style. I love the pumps that you get with this.
If you have done this please tell if you like it or not?

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2009, 05:28:03 PM »
Have any of you tried doing this style of training. Jay Cutler will be working with Hany for the 2009 season doing this style. I love the pumps that you get with this.
If you have done this please tell if you like it or not?

never heard of it - can you describe it ?
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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2009, 05:41:39 PM »
// Fascia Stretch Training-Seven (FST-7)
1. Fascia: pl. fas·ci·ae : Anatomy A sheet or band of fibrous connective tissue enveloping, separating, or binding together muscles, organs, and other soft structures of the body.
2. Stretch: v. stretched, stretch·ing, stretch·es  To lengthen, widen, or enlarge
3. Training :the process of bringing a person to an agreed standard of proficiency by practice and instruction
4. Seven: The seventh in a set or sequence.

http://hanyrambod.com/fst7.html

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 05:43:36 PM »
// Fascia Stretch Training-Seven (FST-7)
1. Fascia: pl. fas·ci·ae : Anatomy A sheet or band of fibrous connective tissue enveloping, separating, or binding together muscles, organs, and other soft structures of the body.
2. Stretch: v. stretched, stretch·ing, stretch·es  To lengthen, widen, or enlarge
3. Training :the process of bringing a person to an agreed standard of proficiency by practice and instruction
4. Seven: The seventh in a set or sequence.

http://hanyrambod.com/fst7.html

feck that, sounds waaaay too complicated for me  ;D  i'll have a read.
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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2009, 05:44:28 PM »
a post from "pantera101"

Quote
I'm not typing the whole damn thing,but heres the basics.It stands for Fascial Stretch Training and the seven refers to 7 sets performed as the final exercise of a target bodypart.Basically you train regularly,with seven sets to finish muscle,with minimal rest between to get the best pump possible.The example in article in April issue of MD is for bi's

Alternate db curls-3-4 x 8-12
machine preacher curls-3 x 8-12
Ez bar curls-7 x 8-12(30-45 seconds between sets while sipping water-more on this next month)Thats what it says not from me

He also says smaller muscles like calves and arms can and should be trained twice a week,while bigger muscles should be once a week,His example of a split is

1-bi's,tri's,and calves
2-legs
3-off
4-chest and tri's
5-back and calves
6-shoulders and bi's
7-off

Other than that some key info is to not use big compound lifts as your "seven set,"they require balance and other muscles to come into play which takes focus off target muscle.So machines and cables are a good idea and free wights like bb curls and skull crushers are as well.Also,i think this is obvious,but you never know.Do your "seven set" at the end,to finish off a muscle.Like I said earlier,with minimal rest between.He says to think of it as filling up a baloon with a small leak,as your muscles slowly lose blood once pumped.The point is to get the best pump possible.

The goal is to bring as much vitamins,minerals,amino acids,oxygen etc into the muscle,and also stretch the fascia tissue which will help encourage muscle growth as fascia tissue will limit muscle growth.

This is no new idea or anything,but i'm happy with this routine,it'll be a nice change.The only problem i'm having is waiting to start.I will be starting a 3 week m-drol cycle april2,and this will be a nice change to compliment the m-drol.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2009, 05:44:46 PM »
What is FST-7?

FST-7 is a training system I devised after years of research and a great deal of trial and error with many clients. FST stands for Fascia Stretch Training, and the seven refers to the seven sets performed for the final exercise of a target bodypart. I have had many clients use this system for overall growth and especially to improve stubborn bodyparts that were seemingly resistant to just about anything else the person had tried. FST-7 encompasses several factors both inside and outside the gym. This month we will focus on the training aspects.


Is fascia limiting your muscle growth?

There are three types of fascia in the human body, but the type bodybuilders should be concerned about is deep fascia. This is dense fibrous connective tissue that interpenetrates and surrounds the muscles, bones, nerves, and blood vessels of the body. The high density of collagen fibers is what gives the deep fascia its strength and integrity. The amount of elastin fibers determines how much extensibility and resiliency it will have. In other words, some of us have fascia that is thicker and tougher than others. The most genetically blessed bodybuilders have thinner fascia, which is why their muscle bellies appear to be larger and fuller, with that round ‘bubbly' look that all bodybuilders covet. Ronnie Coleman and Phil Heath would be two prime examples of individuals blessed with thin fascia. Their muscles expand easier. Think of it in terms of it being easier to blow up a balloon as opposed to one of those water bottles that strongmen like Franco Columbu used to. Jay Cutler and Nasser El-Sonbatty are two men that clearly have thicker fascia. This didn't prevent them from building substantial muscle mass, obviously, but neither man ever had that round ‘Marvel Comics' appearance to their muscles. Yet the average bodybuilder has thicker fascia than either of those two champions. In an effort to expand their fascia and allow growth to occur, some have turned to Synthol and other items that are injected deep into the muscle belly. There have even been some advisors, mainly online, that make it seem as if this is the only solution and must be done. They will also try and insist that all the pro's use Synthol and site inject, which I can assure you is not true. Synthol and related products are foreign substances, and you can never be certain how they will metabolize in the body. We are starting to see various health issues with bodybuilders that are more than likely related to site injecting. Yes, you do need to stretch the muscle fascia to experience optimal growth, but that is not the way to do it.




All stretching is not the same

I am not the first person to recognize the importance of stretching the muscle fascia. First John Parrillo, then more recently Dante Trudel of DC Training fame, incorporate aggressive stretching during workouts as part of their training programs. They had the right idea, but stretching the fascia by elongating the muscle is not the best method. FST-7 is based on stretching the muscle from the inside out by volumizing it. This is accomplished by getting the greatest pump possible while training.




Do I still train heavy, or can I just pump up with light weights?

One thing I don't want anyone misconstruing is that FST-7 is all about pumping. That's just one component. I also believe that a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle, and you absolutely must train with heavier weights in the 8-12 rep range. I have tried many variations of heavier and lighter training with clients over the years, and discovered that both types are needed. Heavy weights will build thickness and density, but they will not give you that round, full look. Similarly, getting incredible pumps all the time can impart some of that roundness, but you won't ever get extreme muscle size without training with heavy straight sets. So you need to focus equally on maximizing both your strength and your pump in the same workouts to see optimal results. Here's an example of a biceps workout, FST-7 style, that shows you how to incorporate both:




Alternate dumbbell curls 3-4 x 8-12

Machine preacher curl 3 x 8-12

EZ-bar curl 7 x 8-12 (rest 30-45 seconds between sets while sipping water - more on this next month)




I don't typically like to use very high reps, because too often you will experience general fatigue and get short of breath before you have built the maximum pump in the muscle. I also don't like the weight to be too heavy and limit the reps any lower than eight, because this is when you see form breaking down and ancillary muscles kicking in and robbing the target muscle of the proper stimulation. You can think of the ‘7' set as blowing up a balloon. We keep the rest periods fairly short, because as you pump up the muscle, a little blood escapes in that time. You can think of it as blowing up a balloon with a slight leak in it - even though the balloon is being inflated, some air is escaping. The key is to build on the pump sets by set, exponentially, so that it reaches its maximum state by the final set. If the rest periods were too short, you wouldn't have enough energy to do justice to the seven sets. Another question I often get is, should the weight be constant as the seven sets go on? It can be, but it's perfectly fine to reduce the weight one or two times as needed to stay in the proper rep range. There may also be times when you need to increase the weight, but this happens less often.




How often can I train bodyparts this way?

Generally speaking, this type of training is too traumatic on the larger muscle groups to use more than once a week. Due to the sheer volume of muscle cells, soreness tends to linger too long to allow for more frequent workouts. For instance, Phil Heath recently completed a back workout and was sore for four days. Since he is supposed to be training back and chest twice a week in preparation for the Arnold Classic, this threw him off his schedule somewhat. The higher than normal amount of microscopic tears in the muscle caused by FST-7 training necessitates a bit more recovery time than standard training protocols. However, smaller bodyparts like arms and calves certainly can and should be trained twice a week. This gives you twice as many opportunities to stretch the fascia in what are often exceedingly stubborn bodyparts. Here's a sample split that displays how you could arrange this:




Day one: Biceps and triceps, calves

Day two: Legs

Day three: OFF

Day four: Chest and triceps

Day five: Back and calves

Day six: Shoulders and biceps

Day seven: OFF




This is a split geared toward someone with the goal of improving stubborn arms. There are many other variations depending on what the individual's goals might be.




Which exercises are best suited to the ‘7' sets?

Certain exercises are more appropriate than others for the ‘7' sets. The big compound free weight movements like squats and deadlifts usually are poor choices, for two reasons. For one thing, they involve several other muscle groups and don't do a good job of isolating a target muscle. Also, they require technique and balancing, which tends to break down if one attempts to perform multiple sets in such a short time span. Machines are a good choice in many instances because they keep you in a fixed plane of movement and thus make it easier to isolate a given muscle. Those with selectorized stacks also make it very fast and convenient to increase or decrease the resistance as needed. Here are some suggested movements that I have found work very well:




Back width: Machine pullovers (Hammer Strength, Nautilus) or cable pullovers




Back thickness: Seated row machines with chest support




Chest: Pec deck or peck flye machine*, cable crossovers

*I find that the pec decks with the pads for the elbows usually work very well for shorter trainers, while the pec flye machines with handles seem to be better for tall guys. Try both - you will know by the pump and range of motion you achieve which one is a better choice for you.

Shoulders: Machine lateral raises with pads - my favorite is made by Bodymasters. Hammer Strength, LifeFitness, and Cybex also produce similar models.




Quads: Leg extensions, leg presses




Hamstrings: Seated or lying leg curls




Biceps: EZ-bar curls, machine curls, cable ‘front double biceps curls'




Triceps: Cable pushdowns using rope attachment

Overhead cable extensions

Skull crushers (for advanced trainers)




Calves: Standing and seated raises, calf raises using leg press

(alternate between these three)




When should I do my ‘7'?

The best time to do your ‘7' is as the final exercise for a muscle group. You don't want to do it first, as this would take away from your performance on the heavy straight sets that are also a critical factor in building muscle mass. Finishing off a bodypart with a great pump is something many top bodybuilders have been doing instinctively for years, not knowing that they were expanding their fascia and maximizing growth. It may be tempting to do your pumping sets earlier on if you can't seem to get any kind of pump going, but I would urge you instead to do something like a set or two of 21's to get the blood flowing and then proceed with your heavy sets before capping it all off with your ‘7' set for that bodypart. Remember, ‘7's' are done at the conclusion of each bodypart, so if you are working multiple bodyparts in a given workout, you will be doing two or more of these extended pumping sets.


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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 05:47:43 PM »
so its basically a burn/pump set at the end of a standard workout  ???
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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2009, 05:48:21 PM »
 ::) old news, John Parillo was talking about fascia stretching in the 80's.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2009, 05:51:47 PM »
so its basically a burn/pump set at the end of a standard workout  ???
as i undertand it, after a few minutes of reading, yes, basically. its a nomral workout, then at the end you do 7 consecutive sets with minimal rest between to try to get the muscle as pumped as possible.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2009, 05:53:20 PM »
::) old news, John Parillo was talking about fascia stretching in the 80's.
not old news, read before you post. True the are close to the same, but if you read everything that is on FST-7 training then you will see the difference.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2009, 05:54:53 PM »
Inorder to truly understand the style you will need to visit Hany Rambod's website.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2009, 05:56:23 PM »
not old news, read before you post. True the are close to the same, but if you read everything that is on FST-7 training then you will see the difference.
ok Hany, why not just log in under your real name, anyway there's nothing new under the sun, fascia stretching and end of workout super and giant sets is something that has been done and done and done and done and done over and over again. ::)

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2009, 06:00:13 PM »
ok Hany, why not just log in under your real name, anyway there's nothing new under the sun, fascia stretching and end of workout super and giant sets is something that has been done and done and done and done and done over and over again. ::)
First off I'm not Hany. And It seems to me that you are not going to do this style of training. Phil Heath, Curtis Bryant, Ed Nunn, Troy Brown and now Jay Cutler all do this type of training. This can be a very geat protocal if you use do it the right way.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2009, 06:02:41 PM »
First off I'm not Hany. And It seems to me that you are not going to do this style of training. Phil Heath, Curtis Bryant, Ed Nunn, Troy Brown and now Jay Cutler all do this type of training. This can be a very geat protocal if you use do it the right way.
i never said it wasn't a good training program, i only said that it wasn't a NEW training style.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2009, 06:03:39 PM »
First off I'm not Hany. And It seems to me that you are not going to do this style of training. Phil Heath, Curtis Bryant, Ed Nunn, Troy Brown and now Jay Cutler all do this type of training. This can be a very geat protocal if you use do it the right way.
i have to say though, it does seem that you have soem kind of stake in it. would you mind  telling me about how you know abou this style of training and some other things about why you posted the thread?

i thank you for doing so, im not hating on the style of training, i love the pump and ive always felt that the scientific evidence as well as the anectdotal evidence both hhighly support its effects on muscle growth.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2009, 06:05:21 PM »
i never said it wasn't a good training program, i only said that it wasn't a NEW training style.
I never said this was new. Hany trains his client and puts a different spin to there training while useing FST-7. I know many people that have had great reasults from this style.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2009, 06:09:08 PM »
i have to say though, it does seem that you have soem kind of stake in it. would you mind  telling me about how you know abou this style of training and some other things about why you posted the thread?

i thank you for doing so, im not hating on the style of training, i love the pump and ive always felt that the scientific evidence as well as the anectdotal evidence both hhighly support its effects on muscle growth.
What I'm about to say is not directed to you, just to the general public.
The reason I know so much about FST-7 is because I go and do my reaserch, unlike most people that post here. Most people wait to find the right workout for them, I go out and find it. I posted the thread because I wanted to see if any of you have used FST-7.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2009, 06:11:21 PM »
i do alot of research too laursen. more on different aspects of bodybuilding though, as im not too sure that theres too much to know about training for hypertrophy.    you know, its common knowledge that 8-12 going to failure with high volume and a big pump is the best way to trai.

bu im going to start doing this hany rambod 7 consecutive sets at the ende.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2009, 06:12:35 PM »
First off I'm not Hany. And It seems to me that you are not going to do this style of training. Phil Heath, Curtis Bryant, Ed Nunn, Troy Brown and now Jay Cutler all do this type of training. This can be a very geat protocal if you use do it the right way.

pump/burn sets have been used by most if not all pro bodybuilders since the 60's  ???

hany has simply gave it a catchy name to try to make it sound new and exciting i'm afraid.

does it work - yes

is it new - no
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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2009, 06:15:35 PM »
you know, its common knowledge that 8-12 going to failure with high volume and a big pump is the best way to trai.



i disagree, and have backed this with studies candy. 5-8 reps with heavy weight is the best way to train.

a pump/burn set at the end of a workout like this has not yet been proven to do anything, but i agree there are reasons it makes sense.
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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2009, 06:17:15 PM »
i disagree, and have backed this with studies candy. 5-8 reps with heavy weight is the best way to train.

a pump/burn set at the end of a workout like this has not yet been proven to do anything, but i agree there are reasons it makes sense.
no its fact that reaching failure between 8-12 is the best for hypertrophy.


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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2009, 06:19:31 PM »
as far as reps go, people respond to different rep ranges

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2009, 06:22:50 PM »
no its fact that reaching failure between 8-12 is the best for hypertrophy.



prove it  :D
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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2009, 08:49:42 PM »
What is FST-7?

FST-7 is a training system I devised after years of research and a great deal of trial and error with many clients. FST stands for Fascia Stretch Training, and the seven refers to the seven sets performed for the final exercise of a target bodypart. I have had many clients use this system for overall growth and especially to improve stubborn bodyparts that were seemingly resistant to just about anything else the person had tried. FST-7 encompasses several factors both inside and outside the gym. This month we will focus on the training aspects.


Is fascia limiting your muscle growth?

There are three types of fascia in the human body, but the type bodybuilders should be concerned about is deep fascia. This is dense fibrous connective tissue that interpenetrates and surrounds the muscles, bones, nerves, and blood vessels of the body. The high density of collagen fibers is what gives the deep fascia its strength and integrity. The amount of elastin fibers determines how much extensibility and resiliency it will have. In other words, some of us have fascia that is thicker and tougher than others. The most genetically blessed bodybuilders have thinner fascia, which is why their muscle bellies appear to be larger and fuller, with that round ‘bubbly' look that all bodybuilders covet. Ronnie Coleman and Phil Heath would be two prime examples of individuals blessed with thin fascia. Their muscles expand easier. Think of it in terms of it being easier to blow up a balloon as opposed to one of those water bottles that strongmen like Franco Columbu used to. Jay Cutler and Nasser El-Sonbatty are two men that clearly have thicker fascia. This didn't prevent them from building substantial muscle mass, obviously, but neither man ever had that round ‘Marvel Comics' appearance to their muscles. Yet the average bodybuilder has thicker fascia than either of those two champions. In an effort to expand their fascia and allow growth to occur, some have turned to Synthol and other items that are injected deep into the muscle belly. There have even been some advisors, mainly online, that make it seem as if this is the only solution and must be done. They will also try and insist that all the pro's use Synthol and site inject, which I can assure you is not true. Synthol and related products are foreign substances, and you can never be certain how they will metabolize in the body. We are starting to see various health issues with bodybuilders that are more than likely related to site injecting. Yes, you do need to stretch the muscle fascia to experience optimal growth, but that is not the way to do it.




All stretching is not the same

I am not the first person to recognize the importance of stretching the muscle fascia. First John Parrillo, then more recently Dante Trudel of DC Training fame, incorporate aggressive stretching during workouts as part of their training programs. They had the right idea, but stretching the fascia by elongating the muscle is not the best method. FST-7 is based on stretching the muscle from the inside out by volumizing it. This is accomplished by getting the greatest pump possible while training.




Do I still train heavy, or can I just pump up with light weights?

One thing I don't want anyone misconstruing is that FST-7 is all about pumping. That's just one component. I also believe that a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle, and you absolutely must train with heavier weights in the 8-12 rep range. I have tried many variations of heavier and lighter training with clients over the years, and discovered that both types are needed. Heavy weights will build thickness and density, but they will not give you that round, full look. Similarly, getting incredible pumps all the time can impart some of that roundness, but you won't ever get extreme muscle size without training with heavy straight sets. So you need to focus equally on maximizing both your strength and your pump in the same workouts to see optimal results. Here's an example of a biceps workout, FST-7 style, that shows you how to incorporate both:




Alternate dumbbell curls 3-4 x 8-12

Machine preacher curl 3 x 8-12

EZ-bar curl 7 x 8-12 (rest 30-45 seconds between sets while sipping water - more on this next month)




I don't typically like to use very high reps, because too often you will experience general fatigue and get short of breath before you have built the maximum pump in the muscle. I also don't like the weight to be too heavy and limit the reps any lower than eight, because this is when you see form breaking down and ancillary muscles kicking in and robbing the target muscle of the proper stimulation. You can think of the ‘7' set as blowing up a balloon. We keep the rest periods fairly short, because as you pump up the muscle, a little blood escapes in that time. You can think of it as blowing up a balloon with a slight leak in it - even though the balloon is being inflated, some air is escaping. The key is to build on the pump sets by set, exponentially, so that it reaches its maximum state by the final set. If the rest periods were too short, you wouldn't have enough energy to do justice to the seven sets. Another question I often get is, should the weight be constant as the seven sets go on? It can be, but it's perfectly fine to reduce the weight one or two times as needed to stay in the proper rep range. There may also be times when you need to increase the weight, but this happens less often.




How often can I train bodyparts this way?

Generally speaking, this type of training is too traumatic on the larger muscle groups to use more than once a week. Due to the sheer volume of muscle cells, soreness tends to linger too long to allow for more frequent workouts. For instance, Phil Heath recently completed a back workout and was sore for four days. Since he is supposed to be training back and chest twice a week in preparation for the Arnold Classic, this threw him off his schedule somewhat. The higher than normal amount of microscopic tears in the muscle caused by FST-7 training necessitates a bit more recovery time than standard training protocols. However, smaller bodyparts like arms and calves certainly can and should be trained twice a week. This gives you twice as many opportunities to stretch the fascia in what are often exceedingly stubborn bodyparts. Here's a sample split that displays how you could arrange this:




Day one: Biceps and triceps, calves

Day two: Legs

Day three: OFF

Day four: Chest and triceps

Day five: Back and calves

Day six: Shoulders and biceps

Day seven: OFF




This is a split geared toward someone with the goal of improving stubborn arms. There are many other variations depending on what the individual's goals might be.




Which exercises are best suited to the ‘7' sets?

Certain exercises are more appropriate than others for the ‘7' sets. The big compound free weight movements like squats and deadlifts usually are poor choices, for two reasons. For one thing, they involve several other muscle groups and don't do a good job of isolating a target muscle. Also, they require technique and balancing, which tends to break down if one attempts to perform multiple sets in such a short time span. Machines are a good choice in many instances because they keep you in a fixed plane of movement and thus make it easier to isolate a given muscle. Those with selectorized stacks also make it very fast and convenient to increase or decrease the resistance as needed. Here are some suggested movements that I have found work very well:




Back width: Machine pullovers (Hammer Strength, Nautilus) or cable pullovers




Back thickness: Seated row machines with chest support




Chest: Pec deck or peck flye machine*, cable crossovers

*I find that the pec decks with the pads for the elbows usually work very well for shorter trainers, while the pec flye machines with handles seem to be better for tall guys. Try both - you will know by the pump and range of motion you achieve which one is a better choice for you.

Shoulders: Machine lateral raises with pads - my favorite is made by Bodymasters. Hammer Strength, LifeFitness, and Cybex also produce similar models.




Quads: Leg extensions, leg presses




Hamstrings: Seated or lying leg curls




Biceps: EZ-bar curls, machine curls, cable ‘front double biceps curls'




Triceps: Cable pushdowns using rope attachment

Overhead cable extensions

Skull crushers (for advanced trainers)




Calves: Standing and seated raises, calf raises using leg press

(alternate between these three)




When should I do my ‘7'?

The best time to do your ‘7' is as the final exercise for a muscle group. You don't want to do it first, as this would take away from your performance on the heavy straight sets that are also a critical factor in building muscle mass. Finishing off a bodypart with a great pump is something many top bodybuilders have been doing instinctively for years, not knowing that they were expanding their fascia and maximizing growth. It may be tempting to do your pumping sets earlier on if you can't seem to get any kind of pump going, but I would urge you instead to do something like a set or two of 21's to get the blood flowing and then proceed with your heavy sets before capping it all off with your ‘7' set for that bodypart. Remember, ‘7's' are done at the conclusion of each bodypart, so if you are working multiple bodyparts in a given workout, you will be doing two or more of these extended pumping sets.



Please point me in the direction where I can find your research papers (I'm assuming they are published). I have a couple of people that would be interested in this research.

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Re: FST-7 training by Hany Rambod
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2009, 01:27:57 AM »
Are you taking all of these sets to failure?  Beyond failure?  Just short?