Could Jay Cutler have beat Dorian Yates?

[mesmorph78]

I wish I understood your severe hatred for Ronnie. Odd that you never bring up Haney or Sergio, it's all Arnie/Larry/Dorian. Hm.

i agree...
a couple of times... i have wondered... the same thing...
simply because ronnies superiority is so blaringly obvious... its simple no contest.. flex vs ronnie.. shawn vs ronnie... dillet vs ronnie... competition
dorian is just not in that league REGARDLESS of what the iffbb judges did back in the 90's
so its apparent nd could not be argueing on fact.. but rather emotion....
and in the this scenario... all roads point to one particular emaotion..
hjust my 2 cents

[Palpatine Q]

i agree...
a couple of times... i have wondered... the same thing...
simply because ronnies superiority is so blaringly obvious... its simple no contest.. flex vs ronnie.. shawn vs ronnie... dillet vs ronnie... competition
dorian is just not in that league REGARDLESS of what the iffbb judges did back in the 90's
so its apparent nd could not be argueing on fact.. but rather emotion....
and in the this scenario... all roads point to one particular emaotion..
hjust my 2 cents

I don't think it is what you guys are alluding to,although it's possible. i probably is just stubborness and also trying to get a rise out of us to keep this never ending debate alive. If you look at pics of the two of them hitting the same pose ronnie is CLEARLY the larger, more muscular person. A ten year old can see it. Maybe N.D. is a nine year old with good vocabulary skills. i think a poll would be useless because people would just vote numerous times for their guy.

[delta9mda]

Hardly better biceps? lol Dorian's biceps had shitty peak, they sucked. We all know he showed up with no bicep and still won.
If you're going to argue against poor calves then I'll just point out Yates' poor right bicep.
I don't give a damn about calves, not everyone can have great calves.

it was the left biceps that was torn.  and people talk sheet about yates left tricep, but no one knew there was a problem with the tricep till after yates said something.   

wasnt this a "could cutler beat yates" topic?

[NarcissisticDeity]

It wasn't me who turned this into a Yates vs Ronnie thread , I just responded , and Yates isn't my hero and I would never want to look like him but when push comes to shove he is clearly more complete than Coleman , thats a simple fact that simple people can't seem to grasp , at thier respective bests neither had an edge on size , because they were roughly the same size , same with conditioning , Coleman has an edge on some shape & Yates in others , and in my opinion Yates simply looks better in most of the mandatory poses.

Mesmorph78 I like how you come to the conclusion that Yates wasn't even in the same leauge as , Coleman , Dillet , Flex and Ray , but you're a tad off with your assesment it was neither of them who were in his leauge , do deny Yates dominated the sport is just a retarded statement and it shows you know zero about the sport ,Yates owned the sport of bodybuilding in the 90's he was leaps & bounds better than everyone , in my opinion ONLY Flex Wheeler had a legitimate shot at beating him , a 93 Arnold Classic Flex could beat Yates , and no one else , Dillet if he had a back and his condition was dead -on , but he never had a great back so much for that , Ray was just to small and never had a legitimate shot , Coleman was beat outright by Yates 5 times , Nasser could have beat Yates if he had a back , guess what he didn't .

[Hulkster]

It wasn't me who turned this into a Yates vs Ronnie thread , I just responded , and Yates isn't my hero and I would never want to look like him but when push comes to shove he is clearly more complete than Coleman , thats a simple fact that simple people can't seem to grasp , at thier respective bests neither had an edge on size , because they were roughly the same size , same with conditioning , Coleman has an edge on some shape & Yates in others , and in my opinion Yates simply looks better in most of the mandatory poses.

Mesmorph78 I like how you come to the conclusion that Yates wasn't even in the same leauge as , Coleman , Dillet , Flex and Ray , but you're a tad off with your assesment it was neither of them who were in his leauge , do deny Yates dominated the sport is just a retarded statement and it shows you know zero about the sport ,Yates owned the sport of bodybuilding in the 90's he was leaps & bounds better than everyone , in my opinion ONLY Flex Wheeler had a legitimate shot at beating him , a 93 Arnold Classic Flex could beat Yates , and no one else , Dillet if he had a back and his condition was dead -on , but he never had a great back so much for that , Ray was just to small and never had a legitimate shot , Coleman was beat outright by Yates 5 times , Nasser could have beat Yates if he had a back , guess what he didn't .

Okay, ND's argument seems to be that Dorian is better because he is more complete.  However, this argument is flawed because it ignores the fact that just because you have less flaws (ie. calves) does not make up for the rest of your body being inferior.

For example:

We can say that Dorian is more complete only because he has calves (abs were never mentioned as a weak point in the pre-gut Ronnie years- his abs were good until his gut obliterated them).

However, Ronnie has better arms overall (I think most would agree on this), better chest and better quads (again the pics don't lie), better glutes and hams with a much smaller waist creating a better X-frame. And this is assuming that we call the back even, when in actual fact, most would agree that Ronnie's back is slightly better overall. 

So, what good is "being more complete" when you are actually "mostly inferior even if you are "more complete"?

So, the argument that Dorian is better because he has less flaws is totally flawed itself.


I would like the dorian fans to comment on these pics from the 2003 Mr. Olympia:







Ronnie's flaws sure aren't very obvious when he dials it in..He looked so good at the 2003 pre-judging that you can make a pretty good argument for it being his best ever shape. By the 2003 night show though, it looks like he softened quite a bit.

Dorian even in his best shape would have a hell of a time with Ronnie in this condition..

[NarcissisticDeity]

Again you gloss over things , Yates isn't more complete becuse he has calves , he is more complete because he has much better BALANCE , MUSCLE PROPORTION and I love how you keep comming to the conclusion the rest of Yates physique is inferior , pure nonsense , most would agree Coleman has better arms? I sure has hell wouldn't , I'll agree Coleman has better biceps and thats it ! Yates has better triceps and I would say slightly better forearms that match his whole arms.

You act like Coleman's only flaw is his calves , its not , his other flaws are his medicore triceps , I don't care how big his arms are , he still has thin side triceps and this hurts his sidetricep shot , he has a  giant ass and this hurts all back poses ,  its a flaw when you can see your ass in front poses , he also has poor overall muscle balance and always has , and  his abs every only clearly visable when he competed at low bodyweights and his abs have an odd shape a thier best , not to mention the lack of clearly defined serattus , intercostels .

The whole argument is Yates is better because he has less flaws , better balance & proportion and is more complete and he also looks better in most of the mandatory poses , has at their respectives bests , the same size & conditioning as Coleman and Yates has faced much higher caliber of competition than Coleman , he just simply outclasses Coleman where it counts in the 7 mandatory poses.

[tony b]

put this to the people with a poll

[Hulkster]

Question:

If Yates truly has "better muscle balance and proportion" then why does he get KILLED in shots like this:





Answer: because you say that yates has better balance and proportion, but you are forgetting that muscle shape plays a huge role in that, and that is something that Yates lacks compared to Ronnie.

And, I don't know how you can still say that Yates has better arms overall after looking at all these comparison shots.

[delta9mda]

Question:

If Yates truly has "better muscle balance and proportion" then why does he get KILLED in shots like this:





Answer: because you say that yates has better balance and proportion, but you are forgetting that muscle shape plays a huge role in that, and that is something that Yates lacks compared to Ronnie.

And, I don't know how you can still say that Yates has better arms overall after looking at all these comparison shots.

here we go again comparing an offseason yates to a contest ready ronnie.
ronnie is great no doubt, but his tris and calves pale next to yates'.
ronnie has a huge ass and look at the 2003 pics above and it shows. again, ronnie is great but ripping on yates is really getting old.
like it or not ronnie never beat yates, period.
back wise, yates takes it. ronnies rhomboids are lost in his lats and his traps dont cover as much area. 
yates abs are much better than ronnies.
hardness=yates.
ronnies best was so far the 247 pound version at the arnold, and he would have been dwarfed by a best ever 257 pound yates.
this will go on and on.
and no cutler really couldnt beat yates

[NarcissisticDeity]

Question:

If Yates truly has "better muscle balance and proportion" then why does he get KILLED in shots like this:





Answer: because you say that yates has better balance and proportion, but you are forgetting that muscle shape plays a huge role in that, and that is something that Yates lacks compared to Ronnie.

And, I don't know how you can still say that Yates has better arms overall after looking at all these comparison shots.

Your reasoning just keeps dumber , Yates has inferior shape because Coleman looks better in the most muscular pose? lol  just in case you didn't know the most muscular pose is NOT one of the mandatory poses   

And its you who keeps forgetting how important muscle shape is , especially considering you keep acting like Yates has zero shape , you act like he looks like Palumbo or Paco , he doesn't and guess what Coleman has some oddly shapped muscles , like calves , like glutes , like abs , like triceps , hell even his quads are oddly shapped , especially if you compare them to someone like Tom Platz.

Its ironic you keep bringing up shape as well , because Flex Wheeler had much better shape compared to Yates & Coleman but Yates consistantly beat him , I'll give you Coleman has the edge in shape with some muscles but don't act like Yates is Palumbo to Coleman because thats moronic.

Yates has superior muscle proportion , that means all of his individual muscles complement each other in a positive way that does not throw off the whole effect , his calves match his quads , unlike Coleman who has small calves and giant overly developed quads ,  Yates upper & lower body match-up better than Colemans , Yates biceps were a tad small for his frame however they match-up better with his triceps & forearms in my opinion than Colemans , Coleman has giant biceps/triceps but his forearms look too small for them , I've always said Coleman's traps appear small especially when veiwed from the front .

     

[Palpatine Q]

Yeah but.................neve rmind.

[delta9mda]

Yeah but.................neve rmind.

but this was suppossed to be could cutler beat yates.

[pumpster]

Like Haney, Yates never had superstar arms like Ronnie, Sergio and Arnold. Period. Right there, smallish arms relative to his torso throws off Yates' symmetry and balance. Coupled with a predominant thick torso, waist and the hips of a powerlifter, he's got a lot of weaknesses unless the criteria's powerlifting.

The few areas Yates beats Ronnie and almost anyone else are density and thickness-far more obvious and impressive on video than in pics. Impressive, but in almost every other way Ronnie's way out in front-size, shape, aesthetics, smaller bone structure, skin tone, a look of athleticism-Yates often looks more like a wrestler. They're about even on balance, given that Yates' arms don't compare with his thick waist, torso and hips. By the way, someone should have clued Yates in long ago on appearance-the puggishly unfriendly grimaces in most photos sure didn't help..

Yates beats Cutler thanks to sharper definition and density.

Dillet, with better size, smaller waist and hips, wider shoulders, superstar arms and better balance, could've put Yates into retirement if he'd had his act together and politics on his side.

[delta9mda]

you guys keep saying yates would get outsized, dont you think if he was still in it that he would be even that much bigger and ronnie would not have won an O yet?

[Hulkster]

just in case you didn't know the most muscular pose is NOT one of the mandatory poses   

I guess you missed the 2004 Mr. O...

[Hulkster]

here we go again comparing an offseason yates to a contest ready ronnie.

Here is a contest pic:



and he still gets killed. Why? he doesn't have the shape, definition and vascularity that Ronnie does. It's very simple. Look at the shape of Dorian's arms and chest and then compare them to Ronnie. Even though the size is there, the quality of shape and definition makes all the difference. You can do the same with dorian's quads compared to Ronnies (in pre-gut condition).  Hell, Dorian's quads were probably larger than the pre-gut Ronnie's, but the quality is not there when you compare the two. I don't understand why this is so difficult to admit when the pics are right there on the screen for everyone to see. To most people, except the die-hard Dorian fans, the difference is fairly obvious.

[Hulkster]

Coleman has some oddly shapped muscles , like calves , like glutes

Ronnie does not have oddly shaped glutes.


they are very sexy..

[Hulkster]

I've always said Coleman's traps appear small especially when veiwed from the front .

and you have always been wrong!  Look at this pic- if Ronnie's traps were any larger he would look ridiculous.

[delta9mda]

so could cutler beat yates?

[Hulkster]

so could cutler beat yates?

No. But Ronnie could. 

[bbfan1]

you guys keep saying yates would get outsized, dont you think if he was still in it that he would be even that much bigger and ronnie would not have won an O yet?

No.

PS - buy the 2003 Mr. Olympia DVD.   

[NarcissisticDeity]

and you have always been wrong!  Look at this pic- if Ronnie's traps were any larger he would look ridiculous.

His traps are small 

[Mussolini]

Hey Hulkster, can you tell us all when the vascularity round was added to competion??

Dont give me the "gaspari" BS either. He was rewared for his condition not his vascularity.

Also compared to most other pros Cutler is not very vascular. hey that probably why he lost to Ronnie, because ronnie edged him out in the vascularity round.

[tony b]

should change ND's name to devil's advocate because there is no way in hell he is that single minded to believe that Ronnie is so pathetic.

[haider]

ronnie has small traps..
riiiiight, and dorian has puny calves.