Morning cardio

[slaveboy1980]

also if the cardio is too intensive after a workout gene expression associated with muscle hypertrophy may be fucked up. (so that in part kills your argument that you should do HIIT cardio after your workouts..if that was what you were saying coach. i didnt read your giant post yet)

if your doing high intensive cardio AMPk activation inhibits mTOR whichs is bad news for the muscle growth signal. in other words doing HIIT after a workout is the worst possible time to do it.

dont forget that your sending an 'endurance type signal' to skeletal muscle after you workout (which is a hypertrophy signal) if you do high intensive cardio after a workout. this problem only exists if the cadio is high intensity enough to recruit type II msucle fibers. fast walking wont do this tho.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Nov;38(11):1939-44.

'The classic work of Hickson demonstrated that training for both strength and endurance at the same time results in less adaptation compared with training for either one alone: this has been described as the concurrent training effect. Generally, resistance exercise results in an increase in muscle mass, and endurance exercise results in an increase in muscle capillary density, mitochondrial protein, fatty acid-oxidation enzymes, and more metabolically efficient forms of contractile and regulatory proteins. In the 25 yr since Hickson's initial description, there have been a number of important advances in the understanding of the molecular regulation of muscle's adaptation to exercise that may enable explanation of this phenomenon at the molecular level. As will be described in depth in the following four papers, two serine/threonine protein kinases in particular play a particularly important role in this process. Protein kinase B/Akt can both activate protein synthesis and decrease protein breakdown, thus leading to hypertrophy, and AMP-activated protein kinase can increase mitochondrial protein, glucose transport, and a number of other factors that result in an endurance phenotype. Not only are PKB and AMPK central to the generation of the resistance and endurance phenotypes, they also block each other's downstream signaling. The consequence of these interactions is a direct molecular blockade hindering the development of the concurrent training phenotype. A better understanding of the activation of these molecular pathways after exercise and how they interact will allow development of better training programs to maximize both strength and endurance.'

[slaveboy1980]

so slaveboy has taught you the following:

(1)no form of exercise will give  increase in 24-hour fat oxidation.

(2) dont do cardio after you workout (do it any other time....except just before and after your workouts)

(3) burning fat or carbs during cardio doesnt matter that much. what matters is that cardio burns calories and thus helps you to achieve a caloric deficit = which is what determines fatloss at the end of the day. this point is related to point (1).

(4) too much HIIT is shit, for a bodybuilder who wants to keep his muscle. i suggest a bodybuilder does mostly low intensity cardio. do 0-2 HIIT sessions per week. why is HIIT is shit?  HIIT burns more calories per time unit compared to low intensity cardio...true! but it sends signals that conflict with musclebuilding and it drains you of energy alot more than low intensity cardio does. when your dieting you want to save as much energy for you workouts as possible inorder to fight strength losses, which you have to do inorder to fight muscle loss . also HIIT EPOC is overrated.

[slaveboy1980]

point 1 (and point 3) supporting studies:

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004 Jun;28(6):759-65.

OBJECTIVE: Exercise has been proposed as a tool for the prevention of obesity. Apart from an effect on energy expenditure, in particular low-intensity (LI) exercise might also influence substrate metabolism in favour of fat oxidation. It is however unclear what is the most beneficial exercise regime for obese people. We therefore studied the effect of either high-intensity (HI) or LI exercise on 24 h energy expenditure (24 h EE) and substrate metabolism. METHODS: Eight healthy obese male volunteers (age: 38+/-1 y, BMI: 31+/-1 kg/m(2), W(max): 235+/-16 W) stayed in the respiration chamber for two nights and the day in-between. In the chamber they cycled either at a HI (three times 30 min in a interval protocol (2.5 min 80/50% W(max))) or LI (three times 60 min continuously at 38% W(max)) protocol with an equicaloric energy expenditure. In the chamber subjects were fed in energy balance (37/48/15% of energy as fat/carbohydrate/protein). RESULTS: The 24 h EE was not significantly different between protocols. In both protocols, sleeping metabolic rate (SMR) was elevated after the exercise (average+6.7%). The 24 h respiratory quotient (24 h RQ) was not different between protocols. During exercise, RQ was higher in the HI compared to the LI protocol (0.93 vs 0.91 resp., P<0.05), whereas in the postexercise period RQ tended to be lower in the HI compared to the LI protocol (P=0.06). CONCLUSION: 24 h EE is not differently affected by HI or LI exercise in obese men. Similarly, the differences in HI and LI exercise, RQ are compensated postexercise leading to similar substrate oxidation patterns over 24 h independently of the level of exercise intensity.

Strength Cond Res. 2005 Feb;19(1):61-6.

Seven nonobese adult females (40 +/- 8 years) were studied in a room calorimeter on a day that resistance exercise (REX) was performed (4 sets of 10 exercises) and on a nonexercise control day (CON). Twenty-four-hour energy expenditure (EE) on the REX day (mean +/- SD, 2,328 +/- 327 kcal.d(-1)) was greater than CON (2,001 +/- 369 kcal.d(-1), p < 0.001). The net increase in EE during and immediately after (30 minutes) exercise represented 76 +/- 12% of the total increase in 24-hour EE. Twenty four-hour RQ on the REX day (0.86 +/- 0.06) did not differ from CON (0.87 +/- 0.02). Twenty four-hour carbohydrate oxidation was elevated on the REX day, but 24-hour fat and protein oxidation were not different. Thus, in women, the increase in EE due to resistance exercise is largely seen during and immediately after the exercise. The increased energy demand is met by increased carbohydrate oxidation, with no increase in 24-hour fat oxidation.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Nov;34(11):1793-800.

BACKGROUND: Whether resistance exercise is as effective as aerobic exercise for body-weight management is debated. PURPOSE: To compare 24-h energy expenditure (EE) and macronutrient oxidation elicited by comparable bouts of stationary cycling (BK) and weightlifting (WTS). METHODS: 24-h EE and macronutrient oxidation were measured in 10 nonobese male subjects on three occasions using whole-room indirect calorimetry. BK and WTS days were compared with a nonexercise control day (Con). RESULTS: During BK, subjects exercised for 49 +/- 7 min (mean +/- SEM) at 70% of OV(2max) and expended 546 +/- 16 kcal. During WTS, subjects performed a 70-min circuit consisting of four sets of 10 different exercises at 70% of exercise-specific 1-repetition maximum and expended 448 +/- 21 kcal (P < 0.001 vs BK). 24-h EE on BK and WTS days (2,787 +/- 76 kcal x d(-1), 2,730 +/- 106 kcal x d(-1), respectively, P > 0.05) was elevated compared with Con (2,260 +/- 96 kcal x d(-1), P < 0.001), but 24-h respiratory exchange ratio (RER) was not different. 24-h carbohydrate oxidation was significantly elevated on the exercise days (BK = 370 +/- 18 g x d(-1), WTS = 349 +/- 23 g x d(-1), P > 0.05) compared with Con (249 +/- 29 g x d(-1), P = 0.04). 24-h fat and protein oxidation were the same on BK, WTS, and Con days. EE and macronutrient oxidation in the periods after exercise also did not differ across conditions. CONCLUSION: In men, resistance exercise has a similar effect on 24-h EE and macronutrient oxidation as a comparable bout of aerobic exercise. Neither exercise produced an increase in 24-h fat oxidation above that observed on a nonexercise control day.

[slaveboy1980]

J Appl Physiol. 2002 Mar;92(3):1045-52.

The aim of this study was to determine the effects of exercise at different intensities on 24-h energy expenditure (EE) and substrate oxidation. Sixteen adults (8 men and 8 women) were studied on three occasions [sedentary day (Con), a low-intensity exercise day (LI; 400 kcal at 40% of maximal oxygen consumption) and a high-intensity exercise day (HI; 400 kcal at 70% of maximal oxygen consumption)] by using whole room indirect calorimetry. Both 24-h EE and carbohydrate oxidation were significantly elevated on the exercise days (Con < LI = HI), but 24-h fat oxidation was not different across conditions. Muscle enzymatic profile was not consistently related to 24-h fat or carbohydrate oxidation. With further analysis, it was found that, compared with men, women sustained slightly higher rates of 24-h fat oxidation (mg x kg FFM(-1) x min(-1)) and had a muscle enzymatic profile favoring fat oxidation. It is concluded that exercise intensity has no effect on 24-h EE or nutrient oxidation. Additionally, it appears that women may sustain slightly greater 24-h fat oxidation rates during waking and active periods of the day.

[slaveboy1980]

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1996 Sep;28(9):1138-43

The purpose of this study was to determine: 1) the reliability of 24-h respiratory calorimetry measurements, and 2) the effects of low- versus high-intensity exercise on energy expenditure (EE) and substrate oxidation over a 24-h period. Eight women (age 28 +/- 4.3 yr) were measured for body composition, maximal oxygen consumption while cycling, and EE in three, 24-h calorimeter tests, with identical work output but differing intensity during a 60-min exercise session. Low-intensity (LI) exercise involved continuous cycling at 50% VO2max; whereas high-intensity (HI) exercise involved interval cycling (2 min exercise/recovery) at 100% VO2max. Subjects were randomly assigned to the first two tests at LI or HI, with the third test at the alternate intensity. No differences in EE or respiratory quotient (RQ) during rest, sleep, exercise, or over the 24 h were found between the first two tests (C.V. = 6.0%), demonstrating the reliability of the measurements. The HI protocol elicited significantly higher EE than LI during rest, exercise, and over 24 h, whereas sleeping EE approached significance. No significant differences in RQ during rest, sleep, or over 24 h were found, but 24-h lipid and carbohydrate oxidation were similar in the two protocols. The HI exercise RQ was significantly higher than LI. These findings demonstrated higher 24-h EE in the HI than LI protocol, but similar 24-h substrate oxidation rates.

[slaveboy1980]

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1999 Dec;23(12):1223-32.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of exercise training and dietary macronutrient composition on 24 h substrate oxidation in male, obese subjects. DESIGN: A 16 month exercise intervention study was executed, including a weight loss period with a very low energy diet (VLED) for 2 months at the start of the study. SUBJECTS: Twelve male, obese subjects (age 36.3+/-5.1 y; body weight 94.6+/-13.9 kg; body mass index, BMI 30.8+/-3.0 kg/m2) and in an additional study 15 lean, well-trained subjects (age 36.2+/-7.2 y; body weight 72.2+/-5.9 kg; BMI 22.3+/-1.7 kg/m2) participated. MEASUREMENTS: Substrate oxidation was measured during a standardized 36 h stay in the respiration chamber at the start of the study (0 months), and at 4, 10 and 16 months. In the respiration chamber subjects were randomly assigned to a high-fat (Hi.F) diet (60% of energy (En%) fat) or a reduced-fat (Red.F) diet (30 En% fat). The well-trained group was measured once in the respiration chamber for 36 h according to the same protocol. RESULTS: At any time point, independent of the diet consumed, the 24 h carbohydrate (CHO) balances in the chamber were mostly negative (means ranging from +31 to -98 g/d) and the fat balances mostly positive (means ranging from -26 to +38 g/d) for the obese a well as for the lean, well-trained group. For both diets an increased shortage of 70 g of CHO was found at 16 months compared with 4 months, and an increase in fat balance of 33 g during the same time period in the obese subjects, indicating that CHO oxidation had increased with 12 months endurance training. In the well-trained group the 24h CHO balance was even more negative for both types of diet (-103 to -185 g/d for the Red.F and Hi.F diet, respectively) under similar conditions compared with the trained obese group. CONCLUSION: The changes in 24 h substrate utilization in the obese, as well as in the well-trained group, suggest that endurance training increased the reliance on carbohydrate oxidation and therefore did not increase 24 fat oxidation.


 

[slaveboy1980]

intensive cardio negatively impacts muscle growth:

Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition, and Human Performance. McArdle, Katch & Katch. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins; 6th edition 2006.

"Intense aerobic training should not coincide with resistance training to increase muscle mass.

More than likely, the added energy (and perhaps protein) demands of concurrent resistance and aerobic exercise training impose a limit on muscle growth and responsiveness to resistance training.

These considerations should not deter those who desire a well-rounded conditioning program that offers the specific fitness and health from both training modes. "

BUT

im not saying dont do cardio...because if your trying to lose fat achieving a caloric deficit is easier if you do cardio+eat less. and lets not forget the health benefits from doing cardio.

[candidizzle]

after a workout your 'catabolic' until you get protein into you system.

so the food i ate all day leading up to my workout, my pre workout meal, and my pre workout shake which is half whey half casein... all of that is gone and vanished and i am "catabolic" as you say Post workout??        what happened to all my food and protein shakes , slave  

OH i am distraught  

[slaveboy1980]

so the food i ate all day leading up to my workout, my pre workout meal, and my pre workout shake which is half whey half casein... all of that is gone and vanished and i am "catabolic" as you say Post workout??        what happened to all my food and protein shakes , slave  

OH i am distraught  

not at all. but you your will be 'catabolic' (sloppy expression as there is more to it)  until you eat after a workout. and besides why do cardio after a workout? when you can do it at any other time. use your brain    and if you read what i have posted there are other factors, which you avoid because im right.

if your obsessed with burning fat during cardio, do it in the morning (altho as i have proven it doesnt matter     )

your all details, but you cant put together the complete puzzle.

[candidizzle]

but you your will be catabolic until you eat after a workout.

   

ookkkkkaaaaayyyyyyy slave

you do your thing

ill do mine

see you at the finish line 

[slaveboy1980]

   

ookkkkkaaaaayyyyyyy slave

you do your thing

ill do mine

see you at the finish line 

haha picking one part of everything i have written. you have been destroyed as all can see 

[candidizzle]

haha picking one part of everything i have written. you have been destroyed as all can see 

if thats what you think, awesome !   

myself, and the rest of the bodybuilding community and ifbb atheletes, we will all do it the way we always have and always will.

you can do it your way and rush off to your whey

[slaveboy1980]

i was thinking of discussing HIIT in this thread too. but i will leave it to another thread. (other than what i have already said)

[slaveboy1980]

if thats what you think, awesome !   

myself, and the rest of the bodybuilding community and ifbb atheletes, we will all do it the way we always have and always will.

you can do it your way and rush off to your whey

i prefer real food.

[candidizzle]

i prefer real food.

switching gears from cardio to nutrition...

if you catabolic immidietly post workout, regardless of what youve eaten pre workout, and you go straight to solid food, regardless of your source of protein (egg whites, chicken, beef, turkey, ham, fish )..its going to take over an hour for any of those amino acids to make it to the blood stream.   so, if your body, slave, is always catabolic after a workout, then by eating solid food your not out of your catabolic state for AT LEAST one hours time.

so, while you are waiting aroudn for an hour, ill do 435 mins cardio, then drink my whey (which enters the blood stream at an unprecedent 10-15 minutes time), and ill be out of my catabolic state as soon if not soner than YOU .

 


 but in reality, my body isnt catabolic post workout, so i don have to worry about this. but for somereason your body always is, so i would think this info is more valuable to you than to I

[slaveboy1980]

back to morning cardio:

no training increases fat oxidation over a 24 hour period compared to a 'rest day'. what matters at the end is energi in vs energy out (not saying that its all that matters, as some fundamentalists will think). if you use more carbs during the activity you will use more fat the rest of the day. if you use more fat during the activity  the fatburning will decrease the rest of the day.

cardio in the fasted state will increase fatburning during the activity, but in such cases it will decrease later so that the fat oxidation over a 24 hour period is equal to what it would have been if the activity was done postprandially. (after eating)

[candidizzle]

back to morning cardio:                                               

no training increases fat oxidation over a 24 hour period compared to a 'rest day'. what matters at the end is energi in vs energy out (not saying that its all that matters, as some fundamentalists will think). if you use more carbs during the activity you will use more fat the rest of the day. if you use more fat during the activity  the fatburning will decrease the rest of the day.

cardio in the fasted state will increase fatburning during the activity, but in such cases it will decrease later so that the fat oxidation over a 24 hour period is equal to what it would have been if the activity was done postprandially. (after eating)

slave.... cardio = burns fat , food = builds muscle... dont eat so much that any of it contributes to adipose,  but eat enought o grow on... and consistantly make use of the times of day when fat burning is FAT burning, not FOOD burning, and you will get leaner leaner leaner while growing bigger bigger bigger
 




 

[slaveboy1980]

slave.... cardio = burns fat , food = builds muscle... dont eat so much that any of it contributes to adipose,  but eat enought o grow on... and consistantly make use of the times of day when fat burning is FAT burning, not FOOD burning, and you will get leaner leaner leaner while growing bigger bigger bigger
 




 

pseudo bs as i have proved. your not gonna grow and get leaner at the same time (unless your a total newbie and or very fat...and even then it will be for just a short period of time....OR if your on drugs) altho its physicologically possible. besides i was discussing morning cardio but you seem to like to change subjects because you have been proven wrong.

most people who try to do both will end up nowhere.

[candidizzle]

pseudo bs as i have proved. your not gonna grow and get leaner at the same time (unless your a total newbie and or very fat...and even then it will be for just a short period of time....OR if your on drugs) altho its physicologically possible. besides i was discussing morning cardio but you seem to like to change subjects because you have been proven wrong.

most people who try to do both will end up nowhere.

one more time

eat enough to grow, dont eat enough to contribute to fat stores
do cardio when its fat burning, not FOOD burning

and then your growing, and getting leaner

QUITE simple

or, eat to grow, eat slightly more than what you can use, contribute a small amount to fat stores every meal
then do cardio when its fat burning, not food burning, and now your growing BIG TIME, but remaining the same bf%

 

[slaveboy1980]

one more time

eat enough to grow, dont eat enough to contribute to fat stores
do cardio when its fat burning, not FOOD burning

and then your growing, and getting leaner

QUITE simple

or, eat to grow, eat slightly more than what you can use, contribute a small amount to fat stores every meal
then do cardio when its fat burning, not food burning, and now your growing BIG TIME, but remaining the same bf%

 

nope. read my previous post.

if you wanna do some kind of cyclical approach you could bulk for 8 weeks and diet for 4 weeks or some such. but trying to do it at the 'same time' will not work for most people, specially if your not using drugs.

but hey what do you know, at 19 your already on drugs. congratulations. 

[candidizzle]

 ummmmm actuially, "YES"

your gay ass study doesnt address this issue at all.

and oh yea, where did you get that study ? did you do it yourself? haha. no i guarantee you got that off "GOOGLE"...   .. and you always trying to tell ME i am ssome kind og "google"er..       

slave its most obvious you got zero experience real world in any of this

why dont you go find the guy in your gym with the best physique and as him to explain this stuff to you..   

[slaveboy1980]

ummmmm actuially, "YES"

your gay ass study doesnt address this issue at all.

and oh yea, where did you get that study ? did you do it yourself? haha. no i guarantee you got that off "GOOGLE"...   .. and you always trying to tell ME i am ssome kind og "google"er..       

slave its most obvious you got zero experience real world in any of this

why dont you go find the guy in your gym with the best physique and as him to explain this stuff to you..   

lol who are you to talk about experience? i have plenty real life experience. real life experience says that most people wont be losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time.

and arent you always asking for studies? and when i supply them and disprove your pseudo bs, they arent valid anymore ehh?

besides you dont understand them, because your cant paste and copy someone elses interpretation of them. so you avoid the issue at hand 

[candidizzle]

 OKAY, even simpler for you

i know you like the whole non sense of 'calories in verse calories out".. so ill make this super easy


you base metabolic rate is 3k cal per day. with weight lifting ncluding its 35k cal per day
on a trainign day you eat 4k cals.  that means you have stored 500 cals as body fat.
now on that same day, before your day started, you got up and took a 45 minute walk that burnt off 200 calories. since it was first thing in the morning,and you hadnt eaten, it was 200 cals of body fat.
after weightlifting that day, you took another 45 miinute walk, and this time it burnt 400 cal, since it was post training and your heart rate was up and glycogen was depleted and you had caffiene in your system.  since it was post training, all the 400 cals came from body fat.

so on this day, although at you 6 meals you had a combined fat storeage of 500 cals, you also burnt off 600 cals of body fat  by walking two times 45 minutes each, at times of the day where it didnt effect recovery didnt effect food intake didnt effect base metabolism...all it did was mobilize body fat.

so, at the end of this day you stored 500 calories as body fat, and you burnt off 600 calories as body fat. 

end of the day = 100 calories body fat defecit.

you lost bod fat!

BUT, since you were over eating at every meal, you were growing muscle all day long as well.

so you gained muscle, but lost fat

not at the same time ! but within the same day.

[slaveboy1980]

OKAY, even simpler for you

i know you like the whole non sense of 'calories in verse calories out".. so ill make this super easy


you base metabolic rate is 3k cal per day. with weight lifting ncluding its 35k cal per day
on a trainign day you eat 4k cals.  that means you have stored 500 cals as body fat.
now on that same day, before your day started, you got up and took a 45 minute walk that burnt off 200 calories. since it was first thing in the morning,and you hadnt eaten, it was 200 cals of body fat.
after weightlifting that day, you took another 45 miinute walk, and this time it burnt 400 cal, since it was post training and your heart rate was up and glycogen was depleted and you had caffiene in your system.  since it was post training, all the 400 cals came from body fat.

so on this day, although at you 6 meals you had a combined fat storeage of 500 cals, you also burnt off 600 cals of body fat  by walking two times 45 minutes each, at times of the day where it didnt effect recovery didnt effect food intake didnt effect base metabolism...all it did was mobilize body fat.

so, at the end of this day you stored 500 calories as body fat, and you burnt off 600 calories as body fat. 

end of the day = 100 calories body fat defecit.

you lost bod fat!

BUT, since you were over eating at every meal, you were growing muscle all day long as well.

so you gained muscle, but lost fat

not at the same time ! but within the same day.

im not even reading that. i have answered questions about morning cardio and proved that the substrate your burn (fat or 'carbs') during the cardio doesnt really matter as long as you achieve a caloric deficit (which doesnt mean that calories in vs calories out is always a simple case)

end of story. i have supplied proof in the form of several studies. you have provided nothing but pseudo bs.

hope this helps

[candidizzle]

 haha.

okay slave.

i said it once i say it again

you do your thing

ill do mine

see you at the finish line