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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Positive Bodybuilding Discussion & Talk => Natural Bodybuilding => Topic started by: JCL on March 26, 2006, 12:55:14 PM
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Opinions welcome....
From experience, what has giving you the best results?
Taking in a whey/dextrose shake after weights AND cardio, or taking in half after training then the second half immediately after cardio...
Thanks in advance!
JCL
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What has worked for me is taking a shake after cardio, which I do at around noon, and then a shake pre workout at 415 and after my workout at 615. Before it has just been after my workout and I have noticed a difference since. Carbs after your workout and cardio is also important.
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Used to dump a load of dextrose in my aft workout shake. Stopped a while back and seen no changes what-so-ever. Also used to put glutamine/creatine etc.. Again stopped, no difference. I'd even guess I could stop the shake all together, go home and have a regular meal and i'd probably still see no difference.
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www.nutrienttiming.com
check it out
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Ingesting large quantities (50+ grams) of dextrose (aka glucose), on a regular basis, is actually quite dangerous in the long run. Adult onset diabetes anyone?? Only food manufacturers (especially those in the sports supplement industry) aiming for the absolute maximum possible profit margins espouse the "benefits?" of glucose.
Honestly guys, eat a banana... dextrose/glucose is crap, totally empty calories.
The Luke
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Honestly guys, eat a banana... dextrose/glucose is crap, totally empty calories.
The Luke
Can you tell me how the body differentiates, in the end, between molecules of glucose coming from a banana versus those from dextrose?
Also, can you post any peer reviewed studies showing the onset of diabetes 'specifically' from long-term dextrose intake in otherwise healthy, exercising adults?
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Can you tell me how the body differentiates, in the end, between molecules of glucose coming from a banana versus those from dextrose?
Also, can you post any peer reviewed studies showing the onset of diabetes 'specifically' from long-term dextrose intake in otherwise healthy, exercising adults?
I don't think there is any "glucose" in a banana. Bananas have fructose I would guess. Also since it is a natural and unrefined food it takes
a little longer for the body to break down - ie. no big insulin spike which is where the problem would lie.
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I don't think there is any "glucose" in a banana. Bananas have fructose I would guess. Also since it is a natural and unrefined food it takes
a little longer for the body to break down - ie. no big insulin spike which is where the problem would lie.
I'm talking about the fate of all ingested carbohydrates.
And if The Luke or anyone else can come up with peer reviewed studies that show healthy, exercising adults developing diabetes from ingesting dextrose as part of their post-workout nutrition, I'd like to see references.
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I know this has become the common catchcry of all would be intellectuals here on GetBig.... "Show me the peer reviewed studies!" ...sadly it's only called upon in defence of arguments so unfounded that they belie a serious lack of understanding on behalf of those making the demands.
Blake wants peer reviewed studies (presumably published in a medical journal) that show a link between adult onset diabetes and the ingestion of glucose in post workout meals among healthy exercising adults.
Well, there are none.
Just like there are no studies specifically addressing a causal link between the effects of gravity on heavy musical instruments and the injuries incurred by healthy exercising people intersecting the line of gravitys effect on the aforementioned musical instrument. Still... I wouldn't want to step under a falling piano.
Studies like the one Blake wants to see haven't, and won't be done... because most scientists in the field would consider them to be redundandant.
The link between large amounts of glucose and diabetes is firmly established.
The mechanism involved is firmly established.
The link between high GI, processed foods and diabetes is firmly established.
Highly processed, simple saccharides (sugars) such as maltose, fructose, sucrose and glucose/dextrose, if eaten in large quantities WILL impair insulin/glucose sensitivity EVEN in healthy exercising adults... and will eventually lead to the myriad illnesses and maladies related to impaired insulin/glucose sensitivity, most notably obesity and diabetes.
I do however understand Blake's line of thinking. The difference between banana's and glucose powder is more complicated than the end result of glucose molecules in the bloodstream. In a banana the glucose molecules are bound up in starches (amylopectin and amylose) the quantities of which vary (a very ripe banana is mostly amylopectin, giving the fruit a GI of 80ish, whereas a green banana is mostly amylose giving the fruit a GI of 40ish). The glucose you get from your GI 70 banana is digested complete with all the water, phytochemicals, vitamins, minerals, salts and nutrients your body would expect to be part of the digestive process, the same cannot be said of glucose powder. Processed sugars are nutritionally insipid, they leech vitamins and minerals from the tissues, upset the osmotic balance of the digestive tract due to their dehydrating properties and are just downright counter to health.
Guys, seriously read up on this stuff. Healthy natural eating is the way to go. The only supplements a (natural) bodybuilder should use are those that augment an already healthful high protein, high lipid, nutritious wholefood diet.
I'd recommmend:
-a high dose multivitamin, multimineral
-vitamin C (3+ grams per day)
-vitamin E (800 iu per day)
-Udo's Choice Ultimate Oil Blend
-a good quality whey protein concentrate
(or a whey protein isolate for those without financial restrictions)
-a bedtime zinc/magnesium mix
-creatine
-NAC (N-acetyl-cysteine) 500 mg ...it's the mother of all antioxidants
Again, guys please do some of your own research... any inkling of nutrtional savy would tell you that mixing 50 or 100 grams of sugar into your post workout shake is madness.
The Luke
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I know this has become the common catchcry of all would be intellectuals here on GetBig.... "Show me the peer reviewed studies!" ...sadly it's only called upon in defence of arguments so unfounded that they belie a serious lack of understanding on behalf of those making the demands.
Blake wants peer reviewed studies (presumably published in a medical journal) that show a link between adult onset diabetes and the ingestion of glucose in post workout meals among healthy exercising adults.
Well, there are none.
Just like there are no studies specifically addressing a causal link between the effects of gravity on heavy musical instruments and the injuries incurred by healthy exercising people intersecting the line of gravitys effect on the aforementioned musical instrument. Still... I wouldn't want to step under a falling piano.
Studies like the one Blake wants to see haven't, and won't be done... because most scientists in the field would consider them to be redundandant.
The link between large amounts of glucose and diabetes is firmly established.
The mechanism involved is firmly established.
The link between high GI, processed foods and diabetes is firmly established.
Highly processed, simple saccharides (sugars) such as maltose, fructose, sucrose and glucose/dextrose, if eaten in large quantities WILL impair insulin/glucose sensitivity EVEN in healthy exercising adults... and will eventually lead to the myriad illnesses and maladies related to impaired insulin/glucose sensitivity, most notably obesity and diabetes.
I do however understand Blake's line of thinking. The difference between banana's and glucose powder is more complicated than the end result of glucose molecules in the bloodstream. In a banana the glucose molecules are bound up in starches (amylopectin and amylose) the quantities of which vary (a very ripe banana is mostly amylopectin, giving the fruit a GI of 80ish, whereas a green banana is mostly amylose giving the fruit a GI of 40ish). The glucose you get from your GI 70 banana is digested complete with all the water, phytochemicals, vitamins, minerals, salts and nutrients your body would expect to be part of the digestive process, the same cannot be said of glucose powder. Processed sugars are nutritionally insipid, they leech vitamins and minerals from the tissues, upset the osmotic balance of the digestive tract due to their dehydrating properties and are just downright counter to health.
Guys, seriously read up on this stuff. Healthy natural eating is the way to go. The only supplements a (natural) bodybuilder should use are those that augment an already healthful high protein, high lipid, nutritious wholefood diet.
I'd recommmend:
-a high dose multivitamin, multimineral
-vitamin C (3+ grams per day)
-vitamin E (800 iu per day)
-Udo's Choice Ultimate Oil Blend
-a good quality whey protein concentrate
(or a whey protein isolate for those without financial restrictions)
-a bedtime zinc/magnesium mix
-creatine
-NAC (N-acetyl-cysteine) 500 mg ...it's the mother of all antioxidants
Again, guys please do some of your own research... any inkling of nutrtional savy would tell you that mixing 50 or 100 grams of sugar into your post workout shake is madness.
The Luke
LOL. You certainly typed a whole lot in order to show "I can't prove what I'm saying".
In your above post you state:
Highly processed, simple saccharides (sugars) such as maltose, fructose, sucrose and glucose/dextrose, if eaten in large quantities WILL impair insulin/glucose sensitivity EVEN in healthy exercising adults...and will eventually lead to the myriad illnesses and maladies related to impaired insulin/glucose sensitivity, most notably obesity and diabetes.
Prove it Luke. It really shouldn't be that hard to back up if it's truly the case, right? You should be able to quickly point to case after case (I mean, it's got to be documented somewhere, right?) of healthy exercising adults developing diabetes and becoming obese (your words, Luke) specifically because they were consuming dextrose as part of their post workout nutrition. Remember, we're not talking about the over-consumption of dextrose in sedentary/obese individuals who eat a typical Western diet.
And another quote of yours:
any inkling of nutrtional savy would tell you that mixing 50 or 100 grams of sugar into your post workout shake is madness.
Ever heard of John Berardi or Lyle McDonald (to name a few)? If you haven't, check out T-Nation.com or bodyrecomposition.com. I don't think many people would doubt their "nutritional savvy", yet consuming dextrose pre/during/post (even high amounts, OMG!) workout is often recommended by them.
And to quote one of my clinical nutrition books: "In diabetes, blood glucose remains high after a meal because insulin is either inadequate or ineffective. Thus, while blood glucose is central to diabetes, dietary carbohydrates do not cause diabetes."
Again Luke, prove that diabetes can be caused by the type of carbohydrates a person eats.
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Blake,
You seem to infer in your post that you'd concede sedentary people become obese and/or develop diabetes as a result of over-consumption of high GI carbohydrates and dextrose...
"Remember, we're not talking about the over-consumption of dextrose in sedentary/obese individuals who eat a typical Western diet."
...maybe the crux of the question is why you believe exercising people are immune to the effects of excessive glucose/sugar consumption??
Also, I think you missed my point about the medical study... your criteria are way too specific, finding the study you want would be tantamount to saying people born on Wednesdays are immune to cancer because there haven't been any peer-reviewed studies proving that anyone ever born on a Wednesday has died of cancer.
I may have written a lot in my previous post... maybe you should have read it.
The Luke
PS-for the record I'm not against the ingestion of consuming high GI carbs in the 30-60 mins after a weights workout, The efficacy of such practices has been proven time and time again... I just don't see why that means powdered sugar? Why not rice, or fruit, or patatoes?
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Anybody else feel really stupid after reading these posts?
:-\
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Anybody else feel really stupid after reading these posts?
:-\
No, it is just you. I personally agree with The Luke, I fell into the dextrose trap for a while. Really it never benefited me in any way.
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Not about the dextrose craba**, he just uses a lot of big words in all his posts...
:-\
And dude, has there ever been anything that has benefited you?
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The gym, food, protein powder.
I'm guessing steroids would help, but i'd prefer not.
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Blake,
You seem to infer in your post that you'd concede sedentary people become obese and/or develop diabetes as a result of over-consumption of high GI carbohydrates and dextrose...
"Remember, we're not talking about the over-consumption of dextrose in sedentary/obese individuals who eat a typical Western diet."
...maybe the crux of the question is why you believe exercising people are immune to the effects of excessive glucose/sugar consumption??
Also, I think you missed my point about the medical study... your criteria are way too specific, finding the study you want would be tantamount to saying people born on Wednesdays are immune to cancer because there haven't been any peer-reviewed studies proving that anyone ever born on a Wednesday has died of cancer.
I may have written a lot in my previous post... maybe you should have read it.
The Luke
PS-for the record I'm not against the ingestion of consuming high GI carbs in the 30-60 mins after a weights workout, The efficacy of such practices has been proven time and time again... I just don't see why that means powdered sugar? Why not rice, or fruit, or patatoes?
I say the Luke is a 21 year old know it all.
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who really doesn't know jack.
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Yes guys that's right... I'm the moron, the real secret of bodybuilding success is choking down a bowlful of sugar after every workout.
If, by some strange contrivance of circumstance you find yourself without a bowlful of sugar post workout, then I recommend you gulp down at least a litre of Coca-Cola post haste... your muscle building progress may depend on it.
The Luke
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I agree with Luke, stick to the basics when it comes to supplements..... eat a good healthy meal, drink a protien shake, and be happy. Its not that complicated.
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Luke is a moron, posting all this hogwash crap. Just becuase you make long ass posts doesn't make you any smarter than anyone else. In fact, as already posted, your posts could be trimmed down to one sentence.
To the original poster,
post-workout you would like a 2:1 ratio of carbs (Dextrose) to whey.
Taking dextrose post-workout will not lead to type II diabetes as some idiots like here to insinuate. The only cause that can be linked to diabetes is obesity.
You can get your dextrose at any reputable online shop such as 1fast400 which I prefer. And also a great place to look is your local wine/beer shop. Dex usually runs about $1/lb
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Can someone explain the reasoning here?? Why is dextrose suddenly the be-all-and-end-all of post workout nutrition??
And why only dextrose/glucose??
Is it the GI score of 100??
If so, then why not use maltodextrin?
It has a GI of 102... why not tofu??
It has a GI of 103 to 105... why has everyone latched onto dextrose??
What about sticky white rice? GI of 98
What about Rice Krispies? GI of 95
Why not just inject the glucose intraveinously?
The Luke
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Can someone explain the reasoning here?? Why is dextrose suddenly the be-all-and-end-all of post workout nutrition??
And why only dextrose/glucose??
Is it the GI score of 100??
If so, then why not use maltodextrin?
It has a GI of 102... why not tofu??
It has a GI of 103 to 105... why has everyone latched onto dextrose??
What about sticky white rice? GI of 98
What about Rice Krispies? GI of 95
Why not just inject the glucose intraveinously?
The Luke
would you just quit posting? you are wasting server space.
To answer your moronic question - yes, you can use all of those post-workout.
Why dextrose? It's cheap, and it's easy to mix in your shake.
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Cheap and easy to mix... why not use table sugar?? That's half glucose, you could just use twice as much? Couldn't you?
The Luke
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Keep it SIMPLE and STUPID everyone...
After cardio? Go w/ a serving of BCAA's/Glutamine. When you get home from the gym(if you do your cardio at the gym like me) which lets say is a 10 minute drive...go w/ a whey shake mixed in water about 40-50grams of whey...and a couple packets of low-sugar flavored oatmeal.
If you're competing...1 cup of regular oatmeal w/ a little spenda and cinnamon.
Take a multi-vitamin and carry on.
After weights? Same thing basically...50grams of whey...little glutamine, 3 grams of creatine, 2 packets of low-sugar oatmeal. Keep it simple!
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Keep it SIMPLE and STUPID everyone...
After cardio? Go w/ a serving of BCAA's/Glutamine. When you get home from the gym(if you do your cardio at the gym like me) which lets say is a 10 minute drive...go w/ a whey shake mixed in water about 40-50grams of whey...and a couple packets of low-sugar flavored oatmeal.
If you're competing...1 cup of regular oatmeal w/ a little spenda and cinnamon.
Take a multi-vitamin and carry on.
After weights? Same thing basically...50grams of whey...little glutamine, 3 grams of creatine, 2 packets of low-sugar oatmeal. Keep it simple!
Agree! I do that plus I throw in Vit C, E and B Complex as antioxi's.
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Cheap and easy to mix... why not use table sugar?? That's half glucose, you could just use twice as much? Couldn't you?
The Luke
how are you a moderator on here? And why are you trying to dig yourself out of the hole you made. Just admit you were wrong and go on with it.
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Keep it SIMPLE and STUPID everyone...
After cardio? Go w/ a serving of BCAA's/Glutamine. When you get home from the gym(if you do your cardio at the gym like me) which lets say is a 10 minute drive...go w/ a whey shake mixed in water about 40-50grams of whey...and a couple packets of low-sugar flavored oatmeal.
If you're competing...1 cup of regular oatmeal w/ a little spenda and cinnamon.
Take a multi-vitamin and carry on.
After weights? Same thing basically...50grams of whey...little glutamine, 3 grams of creatine, 2 packets of low-sugar oatmeal. Keep it simple!
You would be better served to use dextrose or maltodextrin post-workout over oatmeal. The dextrose will be very fast acting which is what you want, a fast insulin response. Oatmeal will take a while to digest and wont give that fast insulin response, and when it does, the whey will already have gone through your system.
Plus, how thick is that shake with oatmeal in it?
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I had no idea this practice of consuming glucose post workout was so entrenched, or that it's adherents were so intransigent and close-minded. Perhaps I should start a thread detailing my training routine... 40 mins once a week would definately kill a few other sacred cows round here. Might be good for a little controversy maybe?
Anyway, back to the issue at hand... if everyone could keep an open mind long enough to consider it, I'll gladly explain my reasoning:
If you've been around bodybuilding since the eighties you might well remember the original crash weight gain formulas that companies like Weider used to push through their magazines. First it was MegaMass 1000, then MegaMass 2000, and last I heard MegaMass 4000 was the best option for hardgainers looking to bulk up. One thing all these products (weight gainers, meal replacements, postworkout drinks etc) had in common was maltodextrin.
Also known as hydrolized corn starch; modified corn starch; short-chain glucose polymers; catalysed corn starch; low fructose corn syrup; corn starch... etc etc.... maltodextrin is the holy grail of food science: a highly adaptable, alterable, tasteless carbohydrate with a the ability to mimic the "mouth feel" of dietary fat.... and a massive percentage profit mark up.
Maltodextrin is now in everything; yogurts, chocolate, dairy spreads, etc... not to mention all the products in which it acts as a bulking/thickening agent; from low-fat mayonaisse to sports supplements.
The problem?
Simply put; maltodextrin is bad for you. It's a short chain glucose/maltose polymer that is absorbed into the blood stream even faster than pure glucose... having a glycemic index of 105... and faster than anything evolution prepared your body chemistry to handle. But surely bodybuilders want the fastest acting carbohydrate possible after a workout.... why not use glucose or maltodextrin??
Well this is where things get interesting.
We know that diets rich in highly processed saccharides (glucose GI = 100, sucrose GI = 65, maltose GI = 102ish, fructose GI = 23) lead to a whole host of health problems related to damage/impairment of the glucose/insulin senstivity system: namely obesity, adult onset diabetes, and apparently the awkward to diagnose "syndrome X" (a pre-diabetic disorder related to unstabe blood sugar levels and bowel disorders).
We also know that the exponential growth of these diseases is related to the change in Western diet over the last few decades. Americans, for example, now eat less fat than they ever have... but more sugar and processed carbohydrate than ever... and we all know what has happened to the average American waistline.
It seems that constantly eating carb staples with GI ratings in the high (70+) range damages (overloads) the insulin/glucose system leading to a skewing of the balance towards hyper or hypo insulinemic states... something, that for some reason bodybuilders believe themselves to be immune to. Granted regular exercise (especially weight training) does improve insulin/glucose sensitivity, but consuming 100+ grams of pure glucose regularly (3 to 5 times a week), in a solution that contains no solid protein or fat to slow digestion will directly and unnecessarily stress the system maintaining blood sugar.
For health and longevity, eating a diet with carb staples that have GI ratings in the low to mid-range (GI's of 60 and lower) and making sure to include solid proteins and fats at every (small, regular) meal to blunt the GI even further improves glucose/insulin sensitivity by maintaining low, even blood sugar levels.
Post workout, a carb in the GI 70ish range will take full advantage of the heightened carb storage capacity, without overly stressing the system.
I understand and appreciate that bodybuilders have a "more is better attitude" towards nutrition, and I recognise the wisdom of eating a high GI carb postworkout, it's something I do myself.
However having said that... a high GI carb doesn't mean excessive quantities of the highest GI carb known to man, no more than a high protein diet means kilos and kilos of branch chain amino acids.
The Luke
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lol.....I remember MegaMass2000. I got fat on it.... :-\
Geez.....that was back in the day. I feel old....
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You weren't the only one GET_BIGGER, it was the most common side effect... hence, for legal reasons they had to be termed "mass builders" or "weight gainers", and not muscle builders.
The wording of those ads was very informative, if you knew what to look for.
The Luke
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lol.....I remember MegaMass2000. I got fat on it.... :-\
Geez.....that was back in the day. I feel old....
hmm, I wonder why you got fat. It's not rocket science. Why do you think I use Cytogainer? It's basically one of the only weight gainers out there that doesn't use dextrose as the carb source. Instead it uses complex carbs.
There is a massive difference between using dextrose post-workout, and using dextrose in a weight gainer.
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As a matter of interest GMCtrk, which complex carb is used in Cytogainer?
The Luke
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hmm, I wonder why you got fat. It's not rocket science. Why do you think I use Cytogainer? It's basically one of the only weight gainers out there that doesn't use dextrose as the carb source. Instead it uses complex carbs.
There is a massive difference between using dextrose post-workout, and using dextrose in a weight gainer.
I was like 15 when I took the s**t, I barely knew anything about lifting weights let alone something called maltodextrin.....WTF did you know at 15?
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Hey GETBIGGER,
Don't ruin the surprise... I deleted one of GMCtrk's more aggressive posts and sent him a pm letting him know why. Seems I shouldn't have bothered, he's just outed himself as an armchair expert with this comment:
It's not rocket science. Why do you think I use Cytogainer? It's basically one of the only weight gainers out there that doesn't use dextrose as the carb source. Instead it uses complex carbs.
There is a massive difference between using dextrose post-workout, and using dextrose in a weight gainer.
...he doesn't yet know the "complex carb" in Cytogainer is... wait for it.... maltodextrin. Makes you wonder about the "massive difference between using dextrose post-workout, and using dextrose in a weight gainer"... perhaps its psychosomatic??
Let's leave him to his smarter than thou posturing... afterall, he doesn't know he doesn't know.
The Luke
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Ok, so am I wrong that cytogainer does not contain "complex carbs", but is that my fault, or the fault of the labelling on the product? At least I can admit my mistakes as well.
As well, please try and stay on subject. The fact of the matter is dextrose is the ideal post-workout additive with your whey (and creatine). End of story.