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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: BayGBM on November 02, 2006, 03:52:49 PM
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Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
Evangelical Leader Ted Haggard Steps Down After Being Accused of Affair With Gay Man
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. Nov 2, 2006 (AP)— The Rev. Ted Haggard resigned as president of the influential National Association of Evangelicals on Thursday after being accused of paying for sex with a man.
Haggard who has been a leading opponent of the drive for same-sex marriage also stepped aside as head of his 14,000-member New Life Church while a church panel investigates, saying he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations."
The investigation came after a 49-year-old man told a Denver radio station that Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month for three years.
Haggard, a married father of five, denied the allegations in an interview with KUSA-TV late Wednesday: "Never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife, I'm faithful to my wife."
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.
::)
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It'd be great if the other guy came forward and gave us all the sordid details
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I sincerely hope it’s not true, but I have to say, I saw Rev. Haggard interviewed about a year ago and my gaydar went off. There’s nothing wrong with being gay; there’s nothing wrong with being a gay reverend, but a married gay reverend who hires a man for sex on the side while opposing equal treatment for gays and lesbians? Not cool. >:(
If he’s innocent why resign?
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If the same situation happened in the UK, especially with his stance against gay marriage and being such a hypocrite, the tabloids would have a field day.
You could bet your life that they'd track the other bloke down, buy his story and give us a blow by blow account of what went on lol
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It will be interesting to see if he files a defamation lawsuit (truth is a defense).
The guy claims to have a smoking gun or two:
Jones, whose allegations were first aired on KHOW-AM radio in Denver, claimed Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month over three years. He said he advertised himself as an escort on the Internet and was contacted by a man who called himself Art.
Jones said he later saw the man on television identified as Haggard. He said he last had sex with Haggard in August and did not warn him before making his allegations public this week.
Jones said he has voice mails from Haggard as well as an envelope he said Haggard used to mail him cash. He declined to make any of it available to the AP.
"There's some stuff on there (the voice mails) that's pretty damning," he said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227159,00.html
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It will be interesting to see if he files a defamation lawsuit (truth is a defense).
Don't hold your breath.
Hmm, this gives new meaning to worshipping a dick... or muscle worship... or--oh you get the idea. ::)
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In the south park episode about satan's bday party the christian preists had little naked boys on leashs haha ;D
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And to think:
I was chewed out when i said:
"Christians should start acting more like Christians"
And this is one of the LEADERS!
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And to think:
I was chewed out when i said:
"Christians should start acting more like Christians"
And this is one of the LEADERS!
A Christian sinner. Imagine that.
This incident reminds me of the scene from one of the Scary Movie sequels (2 or 3) where the lady calls a babysitter, a priest, to watch her son. The priest shows up with a bottle of wine and candles. The kid takes one look at him and runs. Funniest scene of the entire movie. ;D
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A Christian sinner. Imagine that.
This incident reminds me of the scene from one of the Scary Movie sequels (2 or 3) where the lady calls a babysitter, a priest, to watch her son. The priest shows up with a bottle of wine and candles. The kid takes one look at him and runs. Funniest scene of the entire movie. ;D
Is the power of GOD so weak that once you accept Jesus as your savior you cannot choose to stop paying for GAY SEX?
And from a typical christain, i can see that, but from a LEADER of a Church it's unacceptable.
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did this take place in houston ;D
hi goatboy!
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Is the power of GOD so weak that once you accept Jesus as your savior you cannot choose to stop paying for GAY SEX?
And from a typical christain, i can see that, but from a LEADER of a Church it's unacceptable.
If it's true, it is absolutely unacceptable. I think religious leaders must be held to a higher standard than lay people.
That said, I see this as one man with a potential problem, not an indictment of Christianity. Just like the gay bathhouse culture doesn't represent all homosexuals.
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Hmm, I wonder if that escort was a muscle escort? ha ha ha that would be a delicious twist. :D
I can see the headlines now, "Reverend worships muscledick; Congregation on their knees (in prayer)" :-[
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did this take place in houston ;D
hi goatboy!
Nope, I heard it was Toronto.
hi jimmy!
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If it's true, it is absolutely unacceptable. I think religious leaders must be held to a higher standard than lay people.
That said, I see this as one man with a potential problem, not an indictment of Christianity. Just like the gay bathhouse culture doesn't represent all homosexuals.
It's not. But it will be viewed as such by many who potentially could be Christians at some point.
that's why i say:
Christiains need to act more like Christians.
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It's not. But it will be viewed as such by many who potentially could be Christians at some point.
that's why i say:
Christiains need to act more like Christians.
Yes they do, but I think you're looking for perfection.
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Yes they do, but I think you're looking for perfection.
No, Far from it. I'm looking for christians not to committ major sins AND the multitutde of things christianity calls sins that boildown to just being human . According to every die hard christiain homosexuality is a major sin.
If you are going ot preach then i think you should practice it, not hide behind the "I'm saved" banner.
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Think about this BB:
Would you:
Pay for sex with a man?
According to most conservative people homosexuality is a choice. This man made a concious choice to have sex with another man.
What's stopping you from doing the same thing?
I'm not talking about the occasional white lie, or lusting after someone............ No one can deny those things....it part of being human. I'm not looking for that level of perfection.
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Watch Haggard deny the accusations here
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/02/haggard.allegations/index.html
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Think about this BB:
Would you:
Pay for sex with a man?
According to most conservative people homosexuality is a choice. This man made a concious choice to have sex with another man.
What's stopping you from doing the same thing?
I'm not talking about the occasional white lie, or lusting after someone............ No one can deny those things....it part of being human. I'm not looking for that level of perfection.
Heck no. I don't need to pay for sex. I sleep with a naked woman every night. ;D
There is no excuse for a high profile preacher to engage in this kind of conduct (assuming it is true). Absolutely unacceptable. Anyone in a position like that can become a major stumbling block for people who haven't yet found their way.
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I sleep with a naked woman every night. ;D
way to go champ!
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Heck no. I don't need to pay for sex. I sleep with a naked woman every night. ;D
There is no excuse for a high profile preacher to engage in this kind of conduct (assuming it is true). Absolutely unacceptable. Anyone in a position like that can become a major stumbling block for people who haven't yet found their way.
Perhaps this sheds a different light on being homosexual as it's more something you are born with rather than you choose.
Why wouldn't he chose to have sex with a woman?
And this isn;t the first time this has happen with a pastor.
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oh, what a surprise...
Evangelicals are homo's.
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oh, what a surprise...
Evangelicals are homo's.
And evangelical bodybuilders are... ;D
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removed my post . . . I need to go to bed, my reading comprehension is failing.
for my next act, i will be charging at windmills.
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Perhaps this sheds a different light on being homosexual as it's more something you are born with rather than you choose.
Why wouldn't he chose to have sex with a woman?
And this isn;t the first time this has happen with a pastor.
Why focus on the handful of high profile guys who fall instead of the thousands who don't? You are trying to use this instance to pass judgment on all Christians.
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...The acting senior pastor at New Life, Ross Parsley, told KKTV-TV of Colorado Springs that Haggard admitted that some of the accusations were true.
"I just know that there has been some admission of indiscretion, not admission to all of the material that has been discussed but there is an admission of some guilt," Parsley told the station...
Jones claimed Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month over three years. He said he advertised himself as an escort on the Internet and was contacted by a man who called himself Art, who snorted methamphetamine before their sexual encounters to heighten his experience...
He said he has voice mail messages from Haggard, as well as an envelope he said Haggard used to mail him cash. He declined to make the voice mails available to the AP, but KUSA-TV reported what it said were excerpts late Thursday that referred to methamphetamine.
"Hi Mike, this is Art," one call began, according to the station. "Hey, I was just calling to see if we could get any more. Either $100 or $200 supply."
A second message, left a few hours later, began: "Hi Mike, this is Art, I am here in Denver and sorry that I missed you. But as I said, if you want to go ahead and get the stuff, then that would be great. And I'll get it sometime next week or the week after or whenever."
:'(
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I heard an audio clip of his voice mail messages on Good Morning America. Unless someone out there is very good at impersonating his voice, I no longer have any doubts that the allegations against this guy are true.
The leader of a 30 million evangelicals and active opponent of gay and lesbian equality sucks cock! This is so phucked up!
But you know what... I don’t blame this guy. I blame bigotry and homophobia... The ignorance and fear characteristic of bigotry is so powerful in our culture that what you have are tens of thousands of men (if not more) who are conditioned to think that simply being who they are is so unacceptable that they deny who they are (even to themselves) and get married only to end up sucking cock on the side.
Sure this guy will probably be expelled from the church and go away... but there are plenty more where he came from. The people in that church need to take a long hard look at themselves.
:'(
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Then there are the millions who disagree with the homosexual lifestyle (which is not in any way, shape or form "bigotry" or "homophobia), lead normal lives, and do not have homosexual sex. Stop trying to make the story of one man bigger than it really is.
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Why focus on the handful of high profile guys who fall instead of the thousands who don't? You are trying to use this instance to pass judgment on all Christians.
This instance IS indicative of many christians in principle,(not all of course and not most) . They commit major sins over and over again, sins that are about choices; moral choices; no-brainer choices. We only hear about the high profile ones. But the ones having gay sex, cheating on their taxes, commiting adultry etc... and then going to chruch every Sunday all at the same time condeming anyone who not a christian, supporting the destruction fo other faiths are the ones i'm talking about. These poeple are in your neighborhood, in every neighborhood around world.
They are not true Christians, they do not walk the walk, they only talk the talk.
this is not about perfection. It's about plain choices. The "Message" sometimes translates to some as not having to be accountable for your choices.... Therefore you can make Major sin choices over and over again and you are still saved. I call BUll Shit to that. that seems more like a built in mechanism to keep followers in the church rather than maintain a standard of conduct as a Christain.
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This instance IS indicative of many christians in principle,(not all of course and not most) . They commit major sins over and over again, sins that are about choices; moral choices; no-brainer choices. We only hear about the high profile ones. But the ones having gay sex, cheating on their taxes, commiting adultry etc... and then going to chruch every Sunday all at the same time condeming anyone who not a christian, supporting the destruction fo other faiths are the ones i'm talking about. These poeple are in your neighborhood, in every neighborhood around world.
They are not true Christians, they do not walk the walk, they only talk the talk.
this is not about perfection. It's about plain choices. The "Message" sometimes translates to some as not having to be accountable for your choices.... Therefore you can make Major sin choices over and over again and you are still saved. I call BUll Shit to that. that seems more like a built in mechanism to keep followers in the church rather than maintain a standard of conduct as a Christain.
Most christians are fucking hypocrites. They will burn in hell for their ignorance.
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This instance IS indicative of many christians in principle,(not all of course and not most) . They commit major sins over and over again, sins that are about choices; moral choices; no-brainer choices. We only hear about the high profile ones. But the ones having gay sex, cheating on their taxes, commiting adultry etc... and then going to chruch every Sunday all at the same time condeming anyone who not a christian, supporting the destruction fo other faiths are the ones i'm talking about. These poeple are in your neighborhood, in every neighborhood around world.
They are not true Christians, they do not walk the walk, they only talk the talk.
this is not about perfection. It's about plain choices. The "Message" sometimes translates to some as not having to be accountable for your choices.... Therefore you can make Major sin choices over and over again and you are still saved. I call BUll Shit to that. that seems more like a built in mechanism to keep followers in the church rather than maintain a standard of conduct as a Christain.
It is indicative that all people, including Christians, make mistakes. Everyone (me included) makes mistakes all the time, whether they are Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic, etc. You don't exchange your innate sinful nature for a halo and white gown when you become a Christian. In fact, temptations become much greater when you cross over, because the enemy is constantly trying to make you fall. A roaring lion, trying to devour you.
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It is indicative that all people, including Christians, make mistakes. Everyone (me included) makes mistakes all the time, whether they are Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic, etc. You don't exchange your innate sinful nature for a halo and white gown when you become a Christian. In fact, temptations become much greater when you cross over, because the enemy is constantly trying to make you fall. A roaring lion, trying to devour you.
The temptations only become greater becuase the restrictions become greater. Which is due one of organized region's method of controling people.
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I don't think it has anything to do with making mistakes. This man is obviously a self-hating homosexual. People who loathe themselves are often drawn to religion or conservative politics, as it gives them an opportunity to deny who they really are while they fight against gay rights, etc... Of course, sooner or later they end up giving in to their real natures, and that's when scandal ensues.
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I don't think it has anything to do with making mistakes. This man is obviously a self-hating homosexual. People who loathe themselves are often drawn to religion or conservative politics, as it gives them an opportunity to deny who they really are while they fight against gay rights, etc... Of course, sooner or later they end up giving in to their real natures, and that's when scandal ensues.
I've been in religious circles for my entire life and I completely disagree. This man may be self-hating homosexual, or simply a hypocrite, but he is not representative of the majority of true Christians at all. In fact, one of the reasons a story like this is so big is because it's out of the ordinary.
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I don't think it has anything to do with making mistakes. This man is obviously a self-hating homosexual. People who loathe themselves are often drawn to religion or conservative politics, as it gives them an opportunity to deny who they really are while they fight against gay rights, etc... Of course, sooner or later they end up giving in to their real natures, and that's when scandal ensues.
Agreed.
Doom disapproves
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I've been in religious circles for my entire life and I completely disagree. This man may be self-hating homosexual, or simply a hypocrite, but he is not representative of the majority of true Christians at all. In fact, one of the reasons a story like this is so big is because it's out of the ordinary.
I didn't at all say he was representative of the majority of true Christians. However, it is a statistical fact that pedophiles for instance, are more likely to hold conservative views and are "religious." Self-hating homosexuals will often work in areas where they can oppose gay rights. Some self-loathing gay men become priests or pastors. I don't think you can deny that.
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DOH! :o I don't believe this for one second. He ought to just come completely clean and make the Jimmy Swaggart "I have sinned against you my Lord" speech.
Evangelical Leader Admits to Buying Meth, Receiving Massage From Gay Escort
Friday, November 03, 2006
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — Embattled national evangelical leader the Rev. Ted Haggard admitted Friday that he bought methamphetamines and received a massage from a gay prostitute, but denies he ever used the drug or had sex with the man.
"I bought it for myself but never used it," Haggard told reporters gathered outside his home. "I was tempted but I never used it."
Haggard, 50, a married father of five, who resigned his post as head of the thirty million member National Association of Evangelicals, said he never had sex with Mike Jones, a 49-year-old gay escort who claims to have had a drug-laced three year tryst with Haggard.
Haggard, who was leaving his home with his wife and three of his five children, said he bought the methamphetamine because he was curious. He claimed he threw it away.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227159,00.html
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He gave another interview.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
Voice experts have matched Haggard's voice with the voice on the answering machine. When told this, Haggard admits that he called the prostitute. The reporter then asks what he called him about. Haggard replies, "I called him to buy some meth. But I threw it away."
So, we're supposed to believe that he called a male prostitute for a "massage" --not for sex. He bought the meth but then threw it out because he decided it was wrong?
Given a choice between believing the Reverend or believing the male prostitute, I believe the prostitute. :-\ There's a sentence you don't say every day.
And his poor wife sitting right there having to listen to all this... oye! Why does this guy keep giving interviews? Just shut up and go into rehab. :(
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He needs to confess, then shut up and go into rehab.
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I didn't at all say he was representative of the majority of true Christians. However, it is a statistical fact that pedophiles for instance, are more likely to hold conservative views and are "religious." Self-hating homosexuals will often work in areas where they can oppose gay rights. Some self-loathing gay men become priests or pastors. I don't think you can deny that.
I won't deny statistics (even though I haven't seen them), but I will deny there is any correlation between conservative views, religion, and pedophilia (priest scandal notwithstanding). I read a quote the other day from Mark Twain (?): "there are lies, da%@ lies, and statistics."
You could probably argue that most of the people in prison believe in God and are "religious." That's because the majority of the country believes in God and hold some religious views. You could say the same about people who engage in all sorts of conduct. What I don't think anyone can do is provide a credible link between genuine religious views and bad conduct.
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He needs to confess, then shut up and go into rehab.
Rehab because he's gay? ::)
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Rehab because he's gay? ::)
Rehab because he's apparently a drug addict. ::)
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Rehab because he's apparently a drug addict. ::)
::) ::) ::)
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I won't deny statistics (even though I haven't seen them), but I will deny there is any correlation between conservative views, religion, and pedophilia (priest scandal notwithstanding). I read a quote the other day from Mark Twain (?): "there are lies, da%@ lies, and statistics."
You could probably argue that most of the people in prison believe in God and are "religious." That's because the majority of the country believes in God and hold some religious views. You could say the same about people who engage in all sorts of conduct. What I don't think anyone can do is provide a credible link between genuine religious views and bad conduct.
Beach I think you're reading my post backwards. :) I'm not saying there is a correlation between conservative views/religion and pedophilia. And these people, as well as self-hating gay people, only make up the tiniest fraction. What I said was these people are outwardly attracted to conservatism/religion because it gives them "a front." How genuine their belief system is, is of course, highly questionable. I won't dig up the statistics, but the general profile of the average pedophile is: white, around 35, above average intelligence, conservative religious views. What I have read is that pedophiles are attracted to religion because it gives them the notion of comfort, i.e. that they will be saved, God loves them no matter what, their sins will be forgiven, etc. It is twisted, but then again these people are twisted from the get go. People lie to themselves, rationalize their actions, for all kinds of reasons. I also think many people in prison probably wouldn't have found God if they hadn't been imprisoned in the first place.
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Beach I think you're reading my post backwards. :) I'm not saying there is a correlation between conservative views/religion and pedophilia. And these people, as well as self-hating gay people, only make up the tiniest fraction. What I said was these people are outwardly attracted to conservatism/religion because it gives them "a front." How genuine their belief system is, is of course, highly questionable. I won't dig up the statistics, but the general profile of the average pedophile is: white, around 35, above average intelligence, conservative religious views. What I have read is that pedophiles are attracted to religion because it gives them the notion of comfort, i.e. that they will be saved, God loves them no matter what, their sins will be forgiven, etc. It is twisted, but then again these people are twisted from the get go. People lie to themselves, rationalize their actions, for all kinds of reasons. I also think many people in prison probably wouldn't have found God if they hadn't been imprisoned in the first place.
Ah so. You are correct. I'm a little slow. :) I agree with everything you said.
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Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
Evangelical Leader Ted Haggard Steps Down After Being Accused of Affair With Gay Man
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. Nov 2, 2006 (AP)— The Rev. Ted Haggard resigned as president of the influential National Association of Evangelicals on Thursday after being accused of paying for sex with a man.
Haggard who has been a leading opponent of the drive for same-sex marriage also stepped aside as head of his 14,000-member New Life Church while a church panel investigates, saying he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations."
The investigation came after a 49-year-old man told a Denver radio station that Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month for three years.
Haggard, a married father of five, denied the allegations in an interview with KUSA-TV late Wednesday: "Never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife, I'm faithful to my wife."
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.
::)
People should be supportive of this homo, instead of blasting him for not coming out.
Something's fcuked up with this society when a fag like this guy doesn't feel comfortable being public about being a homo.
YIP
Zack
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People should be supportive of this homo, instead of blasting him for not coming out.
Something's fcuked up with this society when a fag like this guy doesn't feel comfortable being public about being a homo.
YIP
Zack
His religion, which is everything he is about, which he leads and influences a greatmany young people forbids him to engage in sex with a man and sees it as a choice of sinning.
No way but out for him.
Ahh yes they will all forgive him, and in time he'll do it again, we just won;t hear about it becuase he'll more careful fext time.
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Most christians are fucking hypocrites. They will burn in hell for their ignorance.
ALL christians are hypocrites. Because ALL PEOPLE are hypocrites. But if you are truly a Christian (which means you are saved by no means of what you have accomplished by yourself) you WON'T burn in hell because you are forgiven because you have seen the need for forgiveness and accepted it through what Christ did for you :)
(yes, I feel a move to the Relig. board here :-\ )
People should be supportive of this homo, instead of blasting him for not coming out.
Something's fcuked up with this society when a fag like this guy doesn't feel comfortable being public about being a homo.
YIP
Zack
I'm sorry but if this person wants to just be a homer, that's one thing...but he has a wife (that he is committing adultery against) as well as he has purportedly been lying to his children, his congregation, and the world.
He gave another interview.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
Haggard replies, "I called him to buy some meth. But I threw it away."
Sounds as reliable as "I didn't inhale."
Ree damn diculous. I feel badly for his family :(
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Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
Evangelical Leader Ted Haggard Steps Down After Being Accused of Affair With Gay Man
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. Nov 2, 2006 (AP)— The Rev. Ted Haggard resigned as president of the influential National Association of Evangelicals on Thursday after being accused of paying for sex with a man.
Haggard who has been a leading opponent of the drive for same-sex marriage also stepped aside as head of his 14,000-member New Life Church while a church panel investigates, saying he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations."
The investigation came after a 49-year-old man told a Denver radio station that Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month for three years.
Haggard, a married father of five, denied the allegations in an interview with KUSA-TV late Wednesday: "Never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife, I'm faithful to my wife."
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press.
::)
How fitting. Hate the gays and all along he's one of them. ;D Monster irony.
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His religion, which is everything he is about,
I emphatically disagree w/this statement. Obviously his "religion" is not "everything he is about" but he apparently "is about" Methanphetamine, and gay adulterous sex.......and let's throw gargantuan LYING into what he is about :P
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His poor kids. I was talking to my daughter last night about the importance of reputation and a good name. This guy's kids will have to change their last names. :'(
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God does love men and women that are straight or gay. But he does hate sexual immorality (homosexuality, adultery, premarital sex, and prostitution).
I pray that this minister doesnt lie or cover up the facts. He needs to be honest. He needs to repent. With God, he can overcome this mess.
If he did commit a crime, he needs to pay the penalty.
But we need to forgive this guy.
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God does love men and women that are straight or gay. But he does hate sexual immorality (homosexuality, adultery, premarital sex, and prostitution).
I pray that this minister doesnt lie or cover up the facts. He needs to be honest. He needs to repent. With God, he can overcome this mess.
If he did commit a crime, he needs to pay the penalty.
But we need to forgive this guy.
So, in your opinion: God made gays the way they are, while forbidding them from ever having sex the way the want? That's called perversion.
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So, in your opinion: God made gays the way they are, while forbidding them from ever having sex the way the want? That's called perversion.
I believe that homosexuality is a generational curse.
People have overcome homosexuality by revoking the curse in the name of Jesus!
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The guy's a fucking methhead too. hahaha ;D
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The guy's a fucking methhead too. hahaha ;D
what a horrible drug. Just nasty
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what a horrible drug. Just nasty
I concur :'(!
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He has been fired:
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- The Rev. Ted Haggard agreed Saturday to resign as leader of the megachurch he started in his basement more than 20 years ago after its independent investigative board said he was guilty of "sexually immoral conduct."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
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He has been fired:
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- The Rev. Ted Haggard agreed Saturday to resign as leader of the megachurch he started in his basement more than 20 years ago after its independent investigative board said he was guilty of "sexually immoral conduct."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
That's terrible.
What about "He who is without sin shall cast the first stone?"
Seems like Christianity is a fading religion these days...
YIP
Zack
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That's terrible.
What about "He who is without sin shall cast the first stone?"
Seems like Christianity is a fading religion these days...
YIP
Zack
What about accountability? That's what this is. You cannot have a guy who does this stuff lead your church. Should he keep his membership? Yes. Should he be their leader? Absolutely not.
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What about accountability? That's what this is. You cannot have a guy who does this stuff lead your church. Should he keep his membership? Yes. Should he be their leader? Absolutely not.
Why not?
YIP
Zack
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Why not?
YIP
Zack
Because leaders are held to a higher standard. They have an enormous impact on the lives of their members . . . and potential members. They have to lead by example. We don't treat indiscretions by political, military, or business leaders the same as those committed by people in the trenches for the same reason.
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Because leaders are held to a higher standard. They have an enormous impact on the lives of their members . . . and potential members. They have to lead by example. We don't treat indiscretions by political, military, or business leaders the same as those committed by people in the trenches for the same reason.
Yes.
But what does his sexuality have to do with his job? :-\
Seems to me the poor man is a homo, trapped in a heterosexual relationship.
JMO of course.
Why can't he still be a leader of that church, odds are that he finally will accept his homosexuality now that it's been exposed.
YIP
Zack
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I believe that homosexuality is a generational curse.
People have overcome homosexuality by revoking the curse in the name of Jesus!
You are wrong.
If god denies gay people sex through the bible, while building the human body as a sex machine, he's punishing gay people on a mental (shame) and biological level (humans are build for sex, it's natural, and humans need it). That makes the christian god a fucking asshole. No god would do that.
This means that the bible can not be read letter for letter. If so, "God" breaks his own rules, and he lacks unconditional love.
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Yes.
But what does his sexuality have to do with his job? :-\
Seems to me the poor man is a homo, trapped in a heterosexual relationship.
JMO of course.
Why can't he still be a leader of that church, odds are that he finally will accept his homosexuality now that it's been exposed.
YIP
Zack
Because his church says homosexuality is a sin. Actually, that's what he says too. Quite publicly.
He can still be a homosexual, he just cannot lead his church with that kind of lifestyle. God loves gays too. :)
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Because his church says homosexuality is a sin. Actually, that's what he says too. Quite publicly.
He can still be a homosexual, he just cannot lead his church with that kind of lifestyle. God loves gays too. :)
Can gay people enjoy sex with eachother without breaking gods laws?
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Can gay people enjoy sex with eachother without breaking gods laws?
Not unless they rewrite the Bible.
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Not unless they rewrite the Bible.
Then god bring gay people into this world without the right to fulfill their human needs (remember, he designed their bodies as well), thus being an asshole.
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Then god bring gay people into this world without the right to fulfill their human needs (remember, he designed their bodies as well), thus being an asshole.
You could apply that line of reasoning to pedophilia, bestiality, rape, polygamy, and incest. There is no "human need" to have homosexual sex. If a person wants to fulfill the desire to have sex, the person should find a mate, get married, and have all the consensual sex he or she wants. Pretty simple. There is somebody for everybody. Even my wife married me. :)
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You could apply that line of reasoning to pedophilia, bestiality, rape, polygamy, and incest. There is no "human need" to have homosexual sex. If a person wants to fulfill the desire to have sex, the person should find a mate, get married, and have all the consensual sex he or she wants. Pretty simple. There is somebody for everybody. Even my wife married me. :)
Homosexuality is something a person is born with, a person can not chose who they are sexually attracted towards.
Your comparison examples are Christian rhetoric, not much value, we are talking about mature adults, not fucking kids. Mature adults can chose their sexual partners. According to christianity, gay people can not, because they can not be attracted to the opposite sex.
Either the bible must be interpreted for our times, or Christianity will forever be un-ethical.
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I emphatically disagree w/this statement. Obviously his "religion" is not "everything he is about" but he apparently "is about" Methanphetamine, and gay adulterous sex.......and let's throw gargantuan LYING into what he is about :P
whew.......i love
i mean LOVE
a woman with a passion
dasmn, stella, if this is a taste of how the religion board is, then count me in ;)
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Homosexuality is something a person is born with, a person can not chose who they are sexually attracted towards.
Your comparison examples are Christian rhetoric, not much value, we are talking about mature adults, not fucking kids. Mature adults can chose their sexual partners. According to christianity, gay people can not, because they can not be attracted to the opposite sex.
Either the bible must be interpreted for our times, or Christianity will forever be un-ethical.
There is no proof whatsoever that people are born gay. It's about lifestyle choices. That's why you have people like Anne Heche being a heterosexual on Monday, lesbian on Tuesday, and heterosexual on Wednesday. People make choices. Some make the wrong choices.
We all have our weaknesses. Some have trouble with alcohol. Some with drugs. Some with stealing. Some with lack of self control (like which gender you chose to have sex with).
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meltdown
i mean.......closet dick sucker meltdown
carry on
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There is no proof whatsoever that people are born gay. It's about lifestyle choices. That's why you have people like Anne Heche being a heterosexual on Monday, lesbian on Tuesday, and heterosexual on Wednesday. People make choices. Some make the wrong choices.
We all have our weaknesses. Some have trouble with alcohol. Some with drugs. Some with stealing. Some with lack of self control (like which gender you chose to have sex with).
Admit the truth. You have been married for 17 years, and for every year your desire for hot cock up your anus has grown. The last 10 years you have had your private male rump rider. That's right, eh? Your own private shit canal cleaner. You love it when he uses his tongue, right? ;)
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ahem.........
i love tongue
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ahem.........
i love tongue
This is turning you on. Talk about gay sex = magnet on Richard Slippy. Mention gay anal sex. ZAPZAPZAP. Rich appears to join the conversation.
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who
i mean really
who doesn'ty like a tongue up their ass?
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who
i mean really
who doesn'ty like a tongue up their ass?
Like a magnet! I'm telling ya. Like a magnet!
(http://images.google.no/url?q=http://www.myjokemail.com/content/uploads/thumbs/2342.jpg&usg=__1gE5zYZ0B3DpiOBmlXJnYY6CPE=)(http://home.austin.rr.com/ven/ass.jpg)
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i want that tongue up myass
ok, who am i bullshittin....
i want that ass too
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Here you go
(http://k43.pbase.com/o4/21/14321/1/55613872.MaleassmadeinAustra.jpg)
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nah
i want pale ass
suptin like jimmys
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Admit the truth. You have been married for 17 years, and for every year your desire for hot cock up your anus has grown. The last 10 years you have had your private male rump rider. That's right, eh? Your own private shit canal cleaner. You love it when he uses his tongue, right? ;)
Uh oh. Must be a full moon (no pun intended). Buenos noches. Have to go watch Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds with my girls.
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nah
i want pale ass
suptin like jimmys
Look at Jimbos greasy face. :)
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Uh oh. Must be a full moon (no pun intended). Buenos noches. Have to go watch Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds with my girls.
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Not unless they rewrite the Bible.
Only one part of the Bible is the words of God: The Ten Commandments.
Everything else, especially the Old Testament, are a bunch of different books that nobody knows how credible sources for Gods Will they actually are, hence the huge amounts of contradictions.
The testamonies of how Jesus lived, and set an example, coupled with the Ten Commandments, are the best bet on how to live a good Christian life.
Nothing else.
Try reading the Bible, the old testament, eg Mosaic Law: "Man should not lay with man as man lay with woman". That was Moses, or rather someone who wrote ABOUT Moses who tells us that. Not God.
YIP
Zack
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Only one part of the Bible is the words of God: The Ten Commandments.
Everything else, especially the Old Testament, are a bunch of different books that nobody knows how credible sources for Gods Will they actually are, hence the huge amounts of contradictions.
The testamonies of how Jesus lived, and set an example, coupled with the Ten Commandments, are the best bet on how to live a good Christian life.
Nothing else.
Try reading the Bible, the old testament, eg Mosaic Law: "Man should not lay with man as man lay with woman". That was Moses, or rather someone who wrote ABOUT Moses who tells us that. Not God.
YIP
Zack
Regardless of your personal interpretation of the Bible, this man's church agrees with the parts that condemn homosexuality. Also, he violated criminal law by buying narcotics. The only responsible thing to do was remove him from his post, particularly since he hasn't taken complete responsibility for his conduct.
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Regardless of your personal interpretation of the Bible, this man's church agrees with the parts that condemn homosexuality. Also, he violated criminal law by buying narcotics. The only responsible thing to do was remove him from his post, particularly since he hasn't taken complete responsibility for his conduct.
Good point.
YIP
Zack
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Regardless of your personal interpretation of the Bible, this man's church agrees with the parts that condemn homosexuality. Also, he violated criminal law by buying narcotics. The only responsible thing to do was remove him from his post, particularly since he hasn't taken complete responsibility for his conduct.
You mean you don't believe him when he says he threw away the drugs? Or that it was just a massage? ::)
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You mean you don't believe him when he says he threw away the drugs? Or that it was just a massage? ::)
Not for one second. He's lying through his teeth IMO. What Bill Clinton and countless other men have shown is we will not confess until you show us the video . . . or the DNA. And even with video proof guys STILL deny, deny, deny (see Kelly, R.).
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Fired Evangelical Leader Apologizes
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- Less than 24 hours after he was fired from the pulpit of the evangelical megachurch he founded, the Rev. Ted Haggard confessed to his followers Sunday that he was guilty of sexual immorality.
In a letter that was read to the congregation of the New Life Church by another clergyman, Haggard apologized for his acts and requested forgiveness.
"I am so sorry for the circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment for all of you," he said, adding that he had confused the situation by giving inconsistent remarks to reporters denying the scandal.
"The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life," he said.
Haggard resigned last week as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, where he held sway in Washington and condemned homosexuality, after a man claimed to have had drug-fueled homosexual trysts with him. Haggard also placed himself on administrative leave from the New Life Church, which has 14,000 members, but its independent Overseer Board fired him on Saturday.
In his letter, Haggard said "the accusations made against me are not all true but enough of them are that I was appropriately removed from his church leadership position."
He did not give details on which accusations were true.
The letter was read to the church by the Rev. Larry Stockstill, senior pastor of Bethany World Prayer Center in Baker, La., and a member of the board that fired Haggard.
Youngsters were sent out of the room before elders began speaking about the church crisis.
"Worshippers are always challenged by crisis. And when tragedy and crisis strikes it is at that moment that you truly decide if you are a worshipper of the most high god. And today as the worship pastor of this church I am very proud of you," said the Rev. Ross Parsley, who has replaced Haggard.
"I am so grateful for the government system in place here at this church. ... The speed with which things were dealt with this week has been a testimony to the godliness, to the integrity and authority of the overseers of the board of this church," he said.
Haggard, 50, had acknowledged on Friday that he paid Mike Jones of Denver for a massage and for methamphetamine, but said he did not have sex with him and did not take the drug.
The Overseer Board, made up clergy from various churches, used stronger language.
"Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct," the board said in a statement.
The NEA, representing 30 million evangelicals, named the Rev. Leith Anderson, senior pastor of Wooddale Church in Eden Prairie, Minn., as its interim president.
Jones said in a telephone interview Sunday: "I am sad for him and his family. I know this is a tough day for him also. I wish him well. I wish his family well. My intent was never to destroy his family. My intent was to expose a hypocrite.
"I hope the healing process can start. I welcome his request for forgiveness for me."
Haggard's situation is a disappointment to Christian conservatives, whom President Bush and other Republicans are courting heavily in the run-up to Tuesday's election.
Many were already disheartened with the president and the Republican-controlled Congress over their failure to deliver big gains on social issues even before the congressional page scandal involving former Rep. Mark Foley.
Haggard, who had been president of the evangelical association since 2003, has participated in conference calls with White House staffers and lobbied Congress last year on Supreme Court nominees.
Haggard founded New Life in the mid-1980s and held its first services in the basement of his Colorado Springs home.
Jones, who said he is gay, said he was upset when he discovered who Haggard was and found out that New Life had publicly opposed same-sex marriage _ a key issue in Colorado, with a pair of issues on Tuesday's ballot.
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Very good. That's the right thing to do. He's not the only one. We've all fallen short in some way. I hope he gets his act together.
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Very good. That's the right thing to do. He's not the only one. We've all fallen short in some way. I hope he gets his act together.
What would that consist of? Sure he can wean himself off drugs, but his appetite for men is not going away anytime soon. :-\
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After a person is caught, he needs to shut up.
By sitting in his truck and spinning that silly story off the top of his head for the cameras, he destroyed his credibility.
You can use drugs and rent prostitutes and still be honest. Immediate admittance would have meant we could call him a junkie or a whore, but never a liar. And in this world, being a liar is the worst offense of all. You cannot re-buy lost credibility. At least not for the wise consumer. Some goldfished-memory sheeplike idiots will accept what they're fed by soundbytes.
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I hope this Haggard fella will come to peace with his gaylording, perhaps his denial was a reason for the drug abuse as well.
YIP
Zack
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What would that consist of? Sure he can wean himself off drugs, but his appetite for men is not going away anytime soon. :-\
That would consist of, among other things, fidelity (i.e., no adultery), honesty and integrity (I'm sure he lied more than once about his whereabouts and activities), obeying the law (by not buying and/or possessing narcotics), fatherhood (the atrocious example he set for his kids), and leadership (he misled and disappointed thousands of people).
As far as his appetite for men, it's a temptation he will have to overcome. He won't be the first or the last. Everyone has their issues.
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That would consist of, among other things, fidelity (i.e., no adultery), honesty and integrity (I'm sure he lied more than once about his whereabouts and activities), obeying the law (by not buying and/or possessing narcotics), fatherhood (the atrocious example he set for his kids), and leadership (he misled and disappointed thousands of people).
As far as his appetite for men, it's a temptation he will have to overcome. He won't be the first or the last. Everyone has their issues.
That all sounds good, but I don’t think his appetite for men is a temptation he can “overcome.” This is not like chocolate chip cookies or smoking. You can’t overcome who you are and this is who he is. He has obviously denied it for many years and kept it from many people. With everything he had to lose, he was not able to resist his sex drive for men. There is no reason to think he will be able to do so going forward. He can sublimate it or act it out in other ways (pornography or male strip clubs for example) but can he overcome it?
His wife has said that she is standing by him till the end. Nice sentiments but “the end” could be divorce. Not many women would be happy in a sexless marriage or a marriage with someone you think may be placing your health at risk.
Haggard may have trouble finding a date in the short term, but overcome his appetite? I think that’s virtually impossible. :-\
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That all sounds good, but I don’t think his appetite for men is a temptation he can “overcome.” This is not like chocolate chip cookies or smoking. You can’t overcome who you are and this is who he is. He has obviously denied it for many years and kept it from many people. With everything he had to lose, he was not able to resist his sex drive for men. There is no reason to think he will be able to do so going forward. He can sublimate it or act it out in other ways (pornography or male strip clubs for example) but can he overcome it?
His wife has said that she is standing by him till the end. Nice sentiments but “the end” could be divorce. Not many women would be happy in a sexless marriage or a marriage with someone you think may be placing your health at risk.
Haggard may have trouble finding a date in the short term, but overcome his appetite? I think that’s virtually impossible. :-\
Slippy loves his appetite for young male ass.
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That all sounds good, but I don’t think his appetite for men is a temptation he can “overcome.” This is not like chocolate chip cookies or smoking. You can’t overcome who you are and this is who he is. He has obviously denied it for many years and kept it from many people. With everything he had to lose, he was not able to resist his sex drive for men. There is no reason to think he will be able to do so going forward. He can sublimate it or act it out in other ways (pornography or male strip clubs for example) but can he overcome it?
His wife has said that she is standing by him till the end. Nice sentiments but “the end” could be divorce. Not many women would be happy in a sexless marriage or a marriage with someone you think may be placing your health at risk.
Haggard may have trouble finding a date in the short term, but overcome his appetite? I think that’s virtually impossible. :-\
Bay I don't think either one of us knows enough about him to say he is a homosexual. I suspect he is, but he could have also been sleeping with female prostitutes.
He has a wife and children, so in my book, he is a husband and father, who has a problem.
Big surprise here, but we just have different views on homosexuality. :) There have been numerous men and women who have engaged in the lifestyle and then stopped. It's not impossible at all to stop engaging in homosexual sex. There is actually an organization that consists of reformed gays (for lack of a better phrase). The name escapes me . . . .
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Bay I don't think either one of us knows enough about him to say he is a homosexual. I suspect he is, but he could have also been sleeping with female prostitutes.
I agree, which is why did not call him a homosexual. No one has raised the possibility or prospect of him sleeping with female prostitutes so I’m not sure what you’re getting at..
He has a wife and children, so in my book, he is a husband and father, who has a problem.
I guess we read different books. I think someone who drinks, gambles, or drives too fast has “a problem.” A married man and father of five who is living a double (hypocritical) life and sucks cock on the side with male escorts has more than a problem in my book.
Big surprise here, but we just have different views on homosexuality. :) There have been numerous men and women who have engaged in the lifestyle and then stopped. It's not impossible at all to stop engaging in homosexual sex. There is actually an organization that consists of reformed gays (for lack of a better phrase). The name escapes me . . . .
And many of those former converts have come out against the conversion process as malarkey. Gay, straight, or bi, I say be who you are and don’t apologize for it. I can see Ted Haggard or someone from his church going through one of those “conversions” and then swearing by it. Sorry. I’m not buying it. Who do you think started those gay-to-straight conversion groups anyway and what do you think their motivations are/were?
Different opinions are nice, but opinions about things one has little real knowledge of are often useless and counterproductive. Are you an expert on this subject? Are you basing your opinions on first hand knowledge? If not, why are your opinions so strongly held on a subject you really know little about? I can talk forever about gay identity, but when the topic is, for example, lesbian identity, I defer to people (usually lesbians) with more knowledge in the area. I think we would all be better off if fewer straight people tried to speak with authority about what it means to be homosexual or whether or not we choose to be this way.
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Am I an expert on what subject? Homosexuality? I guess the answer is "no"? I don't know what it takes to be an expert in homosexuality. . . and I'm afraid to ask. :) What I believe is the conduct is wrong, that we are talking about conduct not innate qualities, and that there is no proof that people are "born gay." It's a lifestyle choice. That's pretty much all I need to know. I have gay friends and will soon have a gay coworker (or two), but that will not change my views on homosexuality. I respect my gay friends' right to do what they want in the privacy of their bedrooms and they respect my beliefs, even though they disagree.
I'm an open book. I don't hide my beliefs. I will say, however, that I spent a year working next to a woman with a gay son about ten years ago. She cried every time she talked about what a tough life the kid had. That had a huge impact on me and how I deal with open homosexuals and the subject in general. She and I are still friends and respect each other a great deal. She knows my views, but disagrees with me.
I'm going to look into the group of former homosexuals. I doubt they are all lying.
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Am I an expert on what subject? Homosexuality? I guess the answer is "no"? I don't know what it takes to be an expert in homosexuality. . . It's a lifestyle choice. That's pretty much all I need to know.
Interesting. You sound earnest (which is why I’m even pursing this) but I don’t think you’re making a lot of sense.
At what age do you think gays and lesbians make this lifestyle choice you’re so sure we are making? At what age did you choose to be a heterosexual?
I have seen kids as young as young as 4 and 5 playing on a playground and after a few minutes of observation have been able to identify which ones are gay. Fast forward 10 years and surprise, they turn out to be gay. Some parents of kids as young as two often report noticing a “difference” in one of their kids. A difference that eventually shows itself as gay or lesbian identity.
Dick Cheney and Alan Keyes (both staunch conservatives) have daughters that, despite the parents' best efforts, turned out to be lesbians. You mean to tell me that you believe that all these people: young & old in every corner of the globe from antiquity to the present (not to mention all over the animal kingdom) are all consciously making the same lifestyle choice? If you really believe that, you would be welcome at Reverend Haggard’s church.
But you would not be welcome in a biology lab. I have never met anyone with an advanced degree in the bioloical sciences who thinks all these animals and people (including two year olds) are all making the same choice.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: homosexuality is part of the diversity of nature’s portfolio; diversity is written into the nature of biological systems. In other words, nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population. Whether or not people understand that reason is irrelevant.
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I used to think it was something a person chose. But the more gay people I meet, the more I see it's just somethign they're born with. They get urges around the same sex, and they like that group. Period.
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Interesting. You sound earnest (which is why I’m even pursing this) but I don’t think you’re making a lot of sense.
At what age do you think gays and lesbians make this lifestyle choice you’re so sure we are making? At what age did you choose to be a heterosexual?
I have seen kids as young as young as 4 and 5 playing on a playground and after a few minutes of observation have been able to identify which ones are gay. Fast forward 10 years and surprise, they turn out to be gay. Some parents of kids as young as two often report noticing a “difference” in one of their kids. A difference that eventually shows itself as gay or lesbian identity.
Dick Cheney and Alan Keyes (both staunch conservatives) have daughters that, despite the parents' best efforts, turned out to be lesbians. You mean to tell me that you believe that all these people: young & old in every corner of the globe from antiquity to the present (not to mention all over the animal kingdom) are all consciously making the same lifestyle choice? If you really believe that, you would be welcome at Reverend Haggard’s church.
But you would not be welcome in a biology lab. I have never met anyone with an advanced degree in the bioloical sciences who thinks all these animals and people (including two year olds) are all making the same choice.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: homosexuality is part of the diversity of nature’s portfolio; diversity is written into the nature of biological systems. In other words, nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population. Whether or not people understand that reason is irrelevant.
You are engaging in an intelligent discussion without all the needless invective we see on this board by some of the knuckleheads, which is the only reason I am even discussing this with you.
I chose to be a male heterosexual when I was born with an X and Y, just like you. At some point, you chose to have sex with men. I never made that choice. I'm not sure why you did, or why others choose to do so. I do know there are many who engage in the homosexual lifestyle who stop, and live as heterosexuals.
I have no idea why Cheney and Keyes have gay children. I don't know precisely what causes people to make that choice. What I've read is it is often related to issues in the household, be it abuse, an absent father, a negligent father, the lack of intimacy, or any other number of reasons. Personally, I think it comes down to a strong, God fearing father. I cannot prove that scientifically or otherwise. Just my personal opinion.
I also think there is a religious element, but that might be more appropriate for the "religious discussion" board.
My opinions may not be welcome in a biology lab, but the lab has provided no proof that homosexuality is genetic.
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Evangelist admits to 'sexual immorality'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061106/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations
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People should be supportive of this homo, instead of blasting him for not coming out.
Something's fcuked up with this society when a fag like this guy doesn't feel comfortable being public about being a homo.
YIP
Zack
When you're innocent of any wrong doing, yet forced to walk a gauntlet,
...you're always able to distinguish the truly guilty, because s/he will be the one who hits you the hardest.
For years, he has been at the forefront of the anti-gay agenda.
With his history, how could he possibly feel comfortable being public about his sexuality?
It's like a light skinned Black man heading up the KKK for years. Do you really think he'd want his ethnicity to become public after years of such high-profile religious involvement with the KKK? That would be the secret he'd vow to take to the grave.
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How fitting. Hate the gays and all along he's one of them. ;D Monster irony.
That's the nature of homophobia.
The more they profess to hating them, ...the greater the chances are that they are one of them. ;)
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Not unless they rewrite the Bible.
Why can't they? ...it's not like so many other people haven't done it throughout the years. :P
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Regardless of your personal interpretation of the Bible, this man's church agrees with the parts that condemn homosexuality. Also, he violated criminal law by buying narcotics. The only responsible thing to do was remove him from his post, particularly since he hasn't taken complete responsibility for his conduct.
When are we gonna apply the same standards to W? huh? When? damnit, a gal can only hold her breath for so long?
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The truth will out.
Doom approves.
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Why would someone, (a man) "choose" to do something as disgusting as have sex with a man if he didn't have a physical, mental and emotional, predisposition to do so?
That pastor is a HOMO, born that way with GOD blessing and that church has taught him to deny himself which has caused him to live a double life. He sees himself as unworthy of GOD and cannot help his desires. He would be so much happier if he just divorced his wife, quit the church that tells he's a bad person for feeling the way he does, and get a boyfriend.
But he won't do that. He'll crumble under pressure from the church and his family and will try and be a "good" little Christan and certainly repeat what he did.
It's guaranteed.
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Why would someone, (a man) "choose" to do something as disgusting as have sex with a man if he didn't have a physical, mental and emotional, predisposition to do so?
That pastor is a HOMO, born that way with GOD blessing and that church has taught him to deny himself which has caused him to live a double life. He sees himself as unworthy of GOD and cannot help his desires. He would be so much happier if he just divorced his wife, quit the church that tells he's a bad person for feeling the way he does, and get a boyfriend.
But he won't do that. He'll crumble under pressure from the church and his family and will try and be a "good" little Christan and certainly repeat what he did.
It's guaranteed.
Yep.
He's a good candidate for Beach Bum's gay-to-straight "conversion" therapy. Then he'll start preaching about how all gays can undergo the same therapy and find their way to (his) god. ::)
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Yep.
He's a good candidate for Beach Bum's gay-to-straight "conversion" therapy. Then he'll start preaching about how all gays can undergo the same therapy and find their way to (his) god. ::)
Ah the infamous straw man. ::)
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Yep.
He's a good candidate for Beach Bum's gay-to-straight "conversion" therapy. Then he'll start preaching about how all gays can undergo the same therapy and find their way to (his) god. ::)
What's tough for people is that to admit that being homosexual is more of a physical and mental condition rather than a choice would be to de-value the teachings of the Bible.
Becuase how could GOD create a homosexual and then at the same time make being a homosexual a sin?
So it must be a choice! lol
But then again he did he allow "original sin" be born into everyone so that it would be impossible to live up to his standard.
And they call this the "word of God" HAHAHAHAHHA
Classic BRAIN F**K by the authors of the BIBLE to control people and feed a religion
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What's tough for people is that to admit that being homosexual is more of a physical and mental condition rather than a choice would be to de-value the teachings of the Bible.
Becuase how could GOD create a homosexual and then at the same time make being a homosexual a sin?
So it must be a choice! lol
But then again he did he allow "original sin" be born into everyone so that it would be impossible to live up to his standard.
And they call this the "word of God" HAHAHAHAHHA
Classic BRAIN F**K by the authors of the BIBLE to control people and feed a religion
He didn't create homosexuals. He created people with the power to choose. That's actually one of the great things about Christianity. You can choose to believe or not. It is completely within your control.
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What's tough for people is that to admit that being homosexual is more of a physical and mental condition rather than a choice would be to de-value the teachings of the Bible.
Actually, I don’t think that’s so tough.
Even people who claim to be very religious routinely ignore many parts of the Bible they do not like (rules on eating certain foods, premarital sex, wearing certain garments, divorce, etc.) and they do so with no qualms. They cherry pick the tenants of their “faith” and in so doing show it to be little more than window dressing.
Look at the thread on the Landscaping company that says they don't take gay customers. Presumably, this decision is based on their faith, but will they work with bisexuals? Swingers? Do they work with married men who have sex with male prostitutes on the side? What about married men who get massages from male prostitutes? What would they do now if they were in the middle of a landscaping job for Rev. and Mrs. Ted Haggard?
Do they inquire about the sexual orientation and moral standing of every potential customer before accepting a landscaping job?
They probably have gays working for them. What will they do when their son or daughter turns out to be gay?
Their position is so stupid it's laughable. ;D
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He didn't create homosexuals. He created people with the power to choose. That's actually one of the great things about Christianity. You can choose to believe or not. It is completely within your control.
That's the point. To accept that homosexuality is not a choice would be to accept it was something they were born with therfore created by GOD and would contradict the bible even though there is ample evidence and logic that it is something other than a choice.
That's right, we are bAD BAD sinful people who are lost with out the leadership of the church who speaks for GOD........ claissic brain ****
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Actually, I don’t think that’s so tough.
Even people who claim to be very religious routinely ignore many parts of the Bible they do not like (rules on eating certain foods, premarital sex, wearing certain garments, divorce, etc.) and they do so with no qualms. They cherry pick the tenants of their “faith” and in so doing show it to be little more than window dressing.
Look at the thread on the Landscaping company that says they don't take gay customers. Presumably, this decision is based on their faith, but will they work with bisexuals? Swingers? Do they work with married men who have sex with male prostitutes on the side? What about married men who get massages from male prostitutes? What would they do now if they were in the middle of a landscaping job for Rev. and Mrs. Ted Haggard?
Do they inquire about the sexual orientation and moral standing of every potential customer before accepting a landscaping job?
They probably have gays working for them. What will they do when their son or daughter turns out to be gay?
Their position is so stupid it's laughable. ;D
That's been my contension with most christians, they pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to live by. VERY FEW accept it literally and wholey and live by it.
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That's the point. To accept that homosexuality is not a choice would be to accept it was something they were born with therfore created by GOD and would contradict the bible even though there is ample evidence and logic that it is something other than a choice.
That's right, we are bAD BAD sinful people who are lost with out the leadership of the church who speaks for GOD........ claissic brain ****
Ozmo if we were truly talking about science, then I think you'd have a valid point. We don't have that. Science has not shown that homosexuality or bisexuality are genetic.
How would you explain someone like Anne Heche? Or Angelina Jolie?
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Ozmo if we were truly talking about science, then I think you'd have a valid point. We don't have that. Science has not shown that homosexuality or bisexuality are genetic.
How would you explain someone like Anne Heche? Or Angelina Jolie?
Is liking chocolate ice cream and not liking coconut ice cream been proven as genetic?
Can you choose not liking chocolate ice cream?
re: bisexuality
Can you choose not liking both?
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Is liking chocolate ice cream and not liking coconut ice cream been proven as genetic?
Can you choose not liking chocolate ice cream?
re: bisexuality
Can you choose not liking both?
Not a fair comparison at all. I'm a chocoholic. Hey a couple years ago I was teaching a group of impressionable 10-13 year-olds in a church class and I told them that chocolate is a food group. One of the kids went and told his aunt (who he lived with). She actually confronted me over this. She was not happy. ;D
But I digress . . . .
You cannot choose your temptations, but you can choose whether to act on them.
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Not a fair comparison at all. I'm a chocoholic. Hey a couple years ago I was teaching a group of impressionable 10-13 year-olds in a church class and I told them that chocolate is a food group. One of the kids went and told his aunt (who he lived with). She actually confronted me over this. She was not happy. ;D
But I digress . . . .
You cannot choose your temptations, but you can choose whether to act on them.
Now we are getting some where. :)
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'Restoration' after the fall
Fellow evangelicals seek to help the Rev. Ted Haggard address the behaviors that snared him in a scandal.
By Stephanie Simon
Times Staff Writer
December 8, 2006
COLORADO SPRINGS, COLO. — The Rev. Ted Haggard this week formally begins his long journey toward recovery from a drugs-and-gay-sex scandal that forced him to step down as one of the most influential evangelical leaders in the nation.
Haggard, 50, has turned himself over to a team of counselors who are "assessing his spiritual, emotional and mental condition," said the Rev. H.B. London, who is helping to guide Haggard through the process. London and two other pastors will then set out a rigorous "restoration plan" requiring Haggard to spend hours each week in counseling, Bible study, prayer and soul-baring talks — by phone or in person — with his mentors.
The team's first task will be to push Haggard to acknowledge any addictions and come to an honest understanding of his sexuality. "Ted is not in touch with reality," said the Rev. Mark Cowart, a friend. The mentors can confront Haggard or rebuke him forcefully; they may also ask him to submit to a polygraph test.
"Ted says he's not a homosexual," said the Rev. Mike Ware, a good friend. "The restoration team wants experts to evaluate that."
Haggard's high-profile ministry collapsed last month after a male prostitute went on talk radio to allege that the pastor regularly paid him for sex over the last three years. Mike Jones — who advertised in gay publications as a masseur — also said he had seen Haggard take methamphetamine.
Haggard denied the accusations. But when Jones produced two voice-mail messages from Haggard, the pastor said he had hired the prostitute for a massage and had purchased meth, only to throw it away. In a letter to his congregation, Haggard admitted that he had succumbed to "desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach."
"I am a deceiver and a liar," Haggard wrote. "There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life."
Haggard resigned as president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals, a powerful post that brought him in frequent contact with the White House. He was also dismissed as senior pastor of New Life, the church he founded in his basement and grew to a congregation of 14,000.
Since his public confession, Haggard has secluded himself with his wife, Gayle, and their five children. Those close to him say he's humbled, ashamed and grieving — yet prayerful that the scandal might strengthen his family and his faith. "It seems to be a time of hope," said Carolyn Haggard, his niece.
New Life's trustees are working on a severance package to sustain Haggard (who earned about $140,000 a year) and his wife (who earned about $50,000 a year for her work with women's ministries). Associate Pastor Rob Brendle said the Haggards had also received a "generous outpouring" of gifts from congregation members, including donations.
Those close to the restoration will not say whether Haggard will undergo therapy to try to eliminate same-sex attractions. But the conservative Christian leader James C. Dobson, a close friend, has said the healing process — which could last years — will probably aim to eliminate any homosexuality.
White evangelicals as a group tend to view homosexuality as a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait, with 56% holding that sexual orientation can be changed, according to a poll taken this summer by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. (By comparison, the same poll showed 31% of Catholics and 22% of white mainline Protestants believe change is possible.)
In many evangelical congregations, men and women with same-sex attractions are expected to use prayer and Bible study to help them resist the temptation to sin. Haggard comes from a charismatic tradition that puts particular emphasis on the devil's corrupting influence. He has described supernatural visions of demons waiting to infect newborns with sinful desires.
This theology of constant spiritual warfare has led some of his followers to blame Haggard's fall not on any personal weakness but on Satan's cunning. As congregation member Jan Long, 60, put it: "The enemy wants to destroy us."
Such constructions worry the Rev. Tony Campolo, a liberal evangelical leader who helped guide President Clinton's spiritual restoration after the Monica S. Lewinsky affair. "The idea that this is a matter of some evil spirit taking hold of him is setting Ted Haggard up for disaster," Campolo said. "He may have a tendency to pretend that he's been delivered from his homosexual feelings … and all is well."
Campolo said he hoped the restoration team would impress upon Haggard that "there is no easy fix. These are problems he will struggle with for a lifetime."
Haggard has been more liberal than many evangelicals on gay-rights issues; for example, he backs domestic partner benefits. But he has preached unequivocally that homosexuality is immoral and that those who persist in same-sex relations will not be welcome in God's kingdom.
His restoration team largely shares this theology. It includes two veteran pastors of evangelical mega-churches: the Rev. Jack W. Hayford, 72, of Van Nuys and the Rev. Tommy Barnett, 69, of Phoenix. Both pastors — like Haggard — draw on the charismatic tradition, including speaking in tongues.
The third member of the team, London, 69, serves as vice president of Dobson's conservative ministry Focus on the Family, which promotes therapy to help gays and lesbians change their sexual orientation.
As director of pastoral outreach for the Colorado Springs-based ministry, London has counseled hundreds of clergy with admitted moral failings; up to half don't make it through the rehabilitation. "They grow weary of the regimen and drop out," he said.
Those who stick with the process often feel almost unbearably isolated. "Many have run for years on the adrenaline that comes from power and recognition — and suddenly it's gone," London said. "The phone's not ringing. People don't need you."
The restoration team will not aim to return Haggard to ministry. Addressing the New Life congregation last month, Haggard's mentor the Rev. Larry Stockstill laid out a much more modest goal: for Pastor Ted to recover enough to serve God "with joy, with dignity, with hope in his heart."
The congregation responded with a standing ovation.
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>This theology of constant spiritual warfare has led some of his followers to blame Haggard's fall not on any personal weakness but on Satan's cunning.
This is so self serving it is delicious! When you or someone you like does “wrong” the devil made them do it. But when anyone else does "wrong" they are just plain sinners who are going to hell.
"The devil made me do it." Hard to believe people still think this way.
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Such constructions worry the Rev. Tony Campolo, a liberal evangelical leader who helped guide President Clinton's spiritual restoration after the Monica S. Lewinsky affair. "The idea that this is a matter of some evil spirit taking hold of him is setting Ted Haggard up for disaster," Campolo said. "He may have a tendency to pretend that he's been delivered from his homosexual feelings … and all is well."
Campolo said he hoped the restoration team would impress upon Haggard that "there is no easy fix. These are problems he will struggle with for a lifetime."
I've met Tony Campolo. I like him. I think he's right.
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It'd be great if the other guy came forward and gave us all the sordid details
Stay tuned... I just read that Mike Jones has a book deal; he has said he will dish all the dirt in every detail not only on Ted Haggard but on similar men he has been with ;D
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Why would someone, (a man) "choose" to do something as disgusting as have sex with a man if he didn't have a physical, mental and emotional, predisposition to do so?
That pastor is a HOMO, born that way with GOD blessing and that church has taught him to deny himself which has caused him to live a double life. He sees himself as unworthy of GOD and cannot help his desires. He would be so much happier if he just divorced his wife, quit the church that tells he's a bad person for feeling the way he does, and get a boyfriend.
But he won't do that. He'll crumble under pressure from the church and his family and will try and be a "good" little Christan and certainly repeat what he did.
It's guaranteed.
The denial continues... :-[
Minister: Haggard Is 'Completely Heterosexual'
The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 6, 2007; 9:53 AM
DENVER -- One of four ministers who oversaw three weeks of intensive counseling for the Rev. Ted Haggard said the disgraced minister emerged convinced that he is "completely heterosexual."
Haggard also said his sexual contact with men was limited to the former male prostitute who came forward with sexual allegations, the Rev. Tim Ralph of Larkspur told The Denver Post for a story in Tuesday's edition.
"He is completely heterosexual," Ralph said. "That is something he discovered. It was the acting-out situations where things took place. It wasn't a constant thing."
Ralph said the board spoke with people close to Haggard while investigating his claim that his only extramarital sexual contact happened with Mike Jones. The board found no evidence to the contrary.
"If we're going to be proved wrong, somebody else is going to come forward, and that usually happens really quickly," he said. "We're into this thing over 90 days and it hasn't happened."
Haggard resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals last year after allegations of sexual misconduct surfaced. He was also forced out from the 14,000 New Life Church that he founded years ago in his basement after Jones alleged Haggard paid him for sex and sometimes used methamphetamine when they were together. Haggard, who is married, has publicly admitted to "sexual immorality."
Haggard said in an e-mail Sunday, his first communication in three months to church members, that he and his wife, Gayle, plan to pursue master's degrees in psychology. The e-mail said the family hasn't decided where to move but that they were considering Missouri and Iowa.
Another oversight board member, the Rev. Mike Ware of Westminster, said the group recommended the move out of town and the Haggards agreed.
"This is a good place for Ted," Ware said. "It's hard to heal in Colorado Springs right now. It's like an open wound. He needs to get somewhere he can get the wound healed."
It was also the oversight board that strongly urged Haggard to go into secular work.
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That's messed up. Why can't the dude just admit his cocksuckism and move on?!
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Why would someone, (a man) "choose" to do something as disgusting as have sex with a man if he didn't have a physical, mental and emotional, predisposition to do so?
Oh Yes OzmO I agree ...'having sex with a man' has probably got to rank right up there with one of the most nastiest, vilest, and disgusting things someone can do. ::) Who told you? ...your wife? I guess that explains why you're now single huh? How the poor thing must have suffered so. ;)
ps - See how mean I get when I don't get to play poker? ...and there plenty more where that came from >:(
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Oh Yes OzmO I agree ...'having sex with a man' has probably got to rank right up there with one of the most nastiest, vilest, and disgusting things someone can do. ::) Who told you? ...your wife? I guess that explains why you're now single huh? How the poor thing must have suffered so. ;)
ps - See how mean I get when I don't get to play poker? ...and there plenty more where that came from >:(
You should get back to school. Optimum performance is found where experience meets education. Experience alone will statistically not take you to the top.
Make Debussey proud -> Get a MBA.
:)
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Haggard is in total denial. His wife is a tool. Members of his congregation are idiots. I feel sorry for his kids.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/06/haggard.ap/index.html
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Haggard is in total denial. His wife is a tool. Members of his congregation are idiots. I feel sorry for his kids.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/06/haggard.ap/index.html
(Watch one woman tell her story of conversion from homosexuality )
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/06/haggard.ap/index.html
Interesting clip. A former lesbian talks about leaving the lifestyle behind. A psychologist and salon.com writer bashed the conversion programs.
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That's messed up. Why can't the dude just admit his cocksuckism and move on?!
Because he's a retard!
I mean, however you wanna look at it... Either it's a choice and you let the cock slap you in the face, or it's "genetic" and you slurped the cock...
Either way... dude, you sucked cock... You are GAY!
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Haggard's church finds evidence of strange behavior before downfall
Stephanie Simon, Los Angeles Times
Sunday, March 18, 2007
(03-18) 04:00 PDT Denver -- They have had four months to reflect, and the senior staff of New Life Church can look back and see the warning signs.
Not one suspected that their high-profile pastor, the Rev. Ted Haggard, secretly had been visiting a gay prostitute. But they see now that Haggard talked too much about sex, that he could be crudely suggestive, that he seemed to have a need to push boundaries.
And that no one called him on any of it.
"His loose discussions about sexuality might have seemed refreshingly raw and real, especially since church had always been so stuffy and prudish in the past," said Rob Brendle, associate pastor of the mega-church in Colorado Springs. "In retrospect, some of his comments and interactions -- that at the time seemed edgy, but innocent enough -- now seem questionable."
A team of pastors assigned to investigate Haggard after he admitted in November to "sexual immorality" have concluded his behavior went beyond merely questionable.
The board of overseers uncovered a pattern of troubling behavior -- "everything from sordid conversation to overt suggestions to improper activities to improper relationships," the Rev. Larry Stockstill told the New Life congregation in a February report.
Stockstill would not divulge details, but he and the other investigators concluded that Haggard -- who is in therapy and preparing to leave Colorado Springs -- suffered from "habitual, life-controlling problems."
They called it "a matter of grace" that the pastor was caught in his "final relationship," with prostitute Mike Jones of Denver.
Jones had come forward with allegations that Haggard had been paying him for sex regularly for three years and had used methamphetamine in his presence. After Jones produced voice-mail messages from Haggard, the pastor admitted he had visited the prostitute -- only for a massage, he said -- and said he had purchased drugs but never used them.
He was permanently removed from the leadership of New Life and resigned the presidency of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 30 million Christians.
Shortly after his confession, Haggard and his wife, Gayle, spent three weeks at a secular counseling program in Arizona. A member of the church's board of overseers, the Rev. Tim Ralph, told a reporter that Haggard emerged from the treatment convinced "he is completely heterosexual."
Ever since, Haggard's friends and mentors have been disavowing that quote.
"The true characterization is that Mr. Haggard had a weakness and he continues to work to strengthen himself," said the Rev. H.B. London, a member of the three-man team overseeing Haggard's spiritual recovery.
Even the most ardent proponents of therapy to change same-sex attraction say it is a lifelong struggle, demanding constant vigilance and sacrifice -- a price that they find reasonable to avoid relationships they consider sinful.
"Ted will need years of accountability to demonstrate his victory over both actions and tendencies," Stockstill said in the report, which he read aloud to the New Life congregation.
Haggard's associates say he is working diligently toward that goal. He follows a strict regimen of group therapy, family counseling and one-on-one sessions with spiritual advisers. He has agreed to restrictions on what he watches and reads to try to banish what he has called "repulsive and dark" desires.
New Life will continue to pay Haggard's salary of roughly $130,000 through the end of 2007. In exchange, he has agreed not to talk to the media and to leave town.
Haggard and his wife have five children, two still in school; he has told friends that he wants to move the family somewhere with a low cost of living, perhaps Iowa or Missouri.
"Jesus is starting to put me back together," Haggard wrote in February in an e-mail sent to the 14,000 members of his former congregation.
He and his wife plan to take online courses in psychology, he said, "so we can work together serving others the rest of our lives."
The congregation that Haggard founded in his basement -- after a vision he had while fasting on Pike's Peak -- is also reaching for renewal.
Donations to the church, the largest in Colorado, have dropped about 8 percent in the months since the scandal broke. New Life took in $4.9 million from November through February, compared with $5.3 million in the same period a year earlier, Brendle said.
The drop forced the church to lay off 44 of its 350 workers, among them pastoral staff, administrative assistants and child-care providers.
Attendance at New Life is also down, roughly 15 percent, Brendle said.
But those who have stuck with the church say they haven't seen the free-fall they feared. The interim senior pastor, Ross Parsley, is a familiar face at New Life and has a strong following.
"I look around on Sunday mornings and I don't notice as many empty seats as I would have expected, given what we've been through," said Carol Groesbeck, who sings in the choir.
A "moral audit" of the senior staff uncovered one other example of unspecified sexual sin, Brendle said.
The staff member involved -- who led a ministry for young adults -- resigned.
The remaining leadership of the church has vowed to hold one another accountable for their words and actions, hoping to wipe out what London called "a culture of enabling" that fueled Haggard's indiscretions.
As an example of Haggard's inappropriate remarks, Brendle cited the pastor's boast to a documentary filmmaker that "evangelicals have the best sex life of any other group."
In front of the church, with the cameras rolling, Haggard pulled aside two men from his congregation and asked how often their wives experienced orgasm. The clip made the documentary, Alexandra Pelosi's "Friends of God," and is now featured on YouTube.com.
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Mike's book is out and available! :D
http://www.amazon.com/I-Had-Say-Something-Haggards/dp/1583227687/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196704849&sr=8-1
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Has anyone read this book? :D
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Has anyone read this book? :D
No, but I think this is a sad day when no one can trust their favorite muscle daddy, or call girl. WTF is going on with this country, everybody is out for themselves, this guy just wanted to make a buck, hence his book he wrote. Haggert was a good man, helping people out, too bad this fellow had to ruin it all.
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Disgraced pastor Haggard: I was abused as child
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) — Disgraced evangelical pastor Ted Haggard says he was sexually abused as a child and that the experience "started to rage in my mind and in my heart" when he was caught up in a sex scandal involving a male prostitute. Haggard made the remarks in two recent sermons in Morrison, Ill., ABC's "Good Morning America" reported Wednesday.
Haggard said one of his father's employees "had a sexual experience with me" when Haggard was 7, according to audio recordings of the sermons posted on the ABC News Web site.
Haggard said he later became "a conservative Republican, loving the word of God, an evangelical, born-again, spirit-filled, charismatic, all those things.
"But some of the things that were buried in the depths of the sea from when I was in the second grade started to rage in my mind and in my heart," he said.
In 2006, Haggard was fired as pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs when a former male prostitute alleged they had a cash-for-sex relationship. The man also said he saw Haggard use methamphetamine. Haggard also stepped down as president of the National Association of Evangelicals.
He has said some of the allegations were exaggerated but he has never offered specifics.
Haggard, who is starting an insurance agency in Colorado Springs, did not immediately return a phone message left by The Associated Press.
Haggard previously had confessed to undisclosed "sexual immorality," and on the new audio he said: "I really did sin."
Haggard said his family suffered severely for his actions.
"My wife — all my sin and shame fell on her. People treated her as if she had fallen," he said. "And my children — they all went through carrying my shame. And I am so sorry that I did that to my family."
Haggard said he became suicidal but eventually emerged with a stronger Christian faith and marriage than he'd ever had.
Haggard said church leaders missed an opportunity to use his scandal to "communicate the gospel worldwide through secular media."
"We consistently blow it" when those opportunities arise, he said.
"A congressman in trouble, that's the time. A family member gets himself in horrible trouble, that's the time. A preacher gets himself in awful trouble, that's the time," he said, his voice rising to a near-shout.
Audio of Haggard's Illinois sermons were posted on http://tedhaggard.com, but the Web site was unavailable late Wednesday, carrying only the message, "Website Is Being Rebuilt."
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I wasn’t aware that gayness was permanent. Why are people quick to believe someone one when he/she declares to be gay. But, when someone gay says he/she ain’t, it always about so-called denial?
Is Ellen Degeneres’ ex-girlfriend, Anne Heche, still “gay”? She got with a guy within a year or two of splitting with Ellen.
What about Sinead O’Connor? She came out and said, point blank, she was a lesbian. 18 months later, she married a guy!
For some strange reason, I don’t hear anyone claiming that they’re in denial or that they’re still gay.
Then, there’s the one-time poster boy for the “Love Won Out” ministries, from Focus on the Family, Jon Paulk. Last time I checked, he and his ex-lesbian wife, Anne, have been married for 14 years and have three sons. And this was AFTER they left the homosexual lifestyle.
With regards to Haggard, he said he was molested as a child. If that's accurate, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that someone struggles with homosexuality, because of abuse. Pastor and gospel singer, Donnie McClurken, went through something similar, when one of his uncles molested him. He struggled with his sexuality. But, he says he's overcome. He's married with kids, as well.
Here's what I find interesting. For all the talk about how "hateful" and "bigoted" Christians are, with regards to this subject, you will notice that Christian people reached out to help Haggard, as they did with McClurken, and Paulk (after he got caught in gay night club and "outed" by a rep of the Human Rights Campaign).
As it relates to Paulk, Dr. James Dobson could have dropped him altogether. Instead, Paulk simply got demoted and put on probation, while the people at "Focus" helped him. Ironically enough, attendance at the "Love Won Out" conferences INCREASED after that incidenct. In 2003, Paulk retired, with blessings and well-wishes from the Focus on the Family staff (I believe Jon's wife, Anne, now has that chairman job for "Love Won Out" that Jon once had).
Basically, if one accepts someone's homosexuality at face value, I feel that the same should apply when people say that they've left homosexuality (unless there's evidence to the contrary).
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Disgraced pastor faces more gay sex accusations
By ERIC GORSKI, AP Religion Writer
DENVER – Disgraced evangelical leader Ted Haggard's former church disclosed Friday that the gay sex scandal that caused his downfall extends to a young male church volunteer who reported having a sexual relationship with Haggard — a revelation that comes as Haggard tries to repair his public image.
Brady Boyd, who succeeded Haggard as senior pastor of the 10,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, told The Associated Press that the man came forward to church officials in late 2006 shortly after a Denver male prostitute claimed to have had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with Haggard.
Boyd said an "overwhelming pool of evidence" pointed to an "inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship" that "went on for a long period of time ... it wasn't a one-time act." Boyd said the man was in his early 20s at the time. He said he was certain the man was of legal age when it began.
Reached Friday night, Haggard declined to comment and said all interviews would have to be arranged through a publicist for HBO, which is airing a documentary about him this month.
Boyd said the church reached a legal settlement to pay the man for counseling and college tuition, with one condition being that none of the parties involved discuss the matter publicly.
Boyd said a Colorado Springs TV station reached him Thursday to say the young man was planning to provide a detailed report of his relationship with Haggard to the station. Boyd said the church preferred to keep the matter private, but it was the man's decision to go public.
The disclosure comes as Haggard, 52, is about to give a series of high-profile interviews to promote the cable documentary about his time in exile. He is scheduled to appear on CNN's Larry King Live on Thursday, the date of the documentary's premiere, and already has taped "The Oprah Winfrey Show."
In early 2007, New Life Church disclosed that an investigation uncovered new evidence that Haggard engaged in "sordid conversation" and "improper relationships" — but didn't go into detail. Earlier, a church board member had said there was no evidence that Haggard had sexual relations with anyone but Mike Jones, the former male prostitute.
Haggard confessed to undisclosed "sexual immorality" after Jones' allegations and resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals and from New Life Church, where he faced being fired.
Anticipating criticism of the settlement with the former church volunteer, Boyd said Friday that it was in the best interests of all involved. He would not name the volunteer or the settlement amount.
"It wasn't at all a settlement to make him be quiet or not tell his story," Boyd said. "Our desire was to help him. Here was a young man who wanted to get on with his life. We considered it more compassionate assistance — certainly not hush money. I know what's what everyone will want to say because that's the most salacious thing to say, but that's not at all what it was."
He said that "secondarily, it's not great for our church either" that the story be told. Boyd said Haggard knew about the settlement two years ago.
In a letter e-mailed Friday to New Life Church members, Boyd said of the settlement and agreement not to talk: "This decision was made not as an attempt to conceal wrongdoings, but to protect him from those who would seek to exploit him. His actions now suggest that he has changed his mind."
The letter said the church "received reports of a number of incidents of inappropriate behavior" after Haggard's fall. "In each case, we have tried our very best to do the right thing each time, including disciplinary action when appropriate."
Boyd said the "inappropriate behavior" referred to the man who was the volunteer involved with Haggard. After Haggard's fall, another church staff member resigned after admitting to what was described as "sexual misconduct."
Boyd said the church will not take action against the man if he tells his story in the press.
"We have legal standing to do that, but not the desire to," he said.
Boyd said he had spoken to the man once and came away with the impression that he was speaking out because of the documentary. "I think what caused this young man to be a bit aggravated was Ted being seen as a victim, when he himself had experienced a great deal of hurt," Boyd said. "I seriously doubt this man would have come forward if the documentary had not been made."
A spokeswoman for the documentary, "The Trials of Ted Haggard," declined to comment Friday.
David Clohessy, national director of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests — which has largely focused on the Catholic sexual abuse scandal but also speaks out on cases involving Protestant clergy — said the new disclosures about Haggard are more disturbing because they involves a church volunteer.
"Technically, legally, they were both adults," Clohessy said. "Psychologically and emotionally, Haggard was dramatically more powerful. ... By definition, any sexual contact between a congregant and minister is inherently abusive and manipulative."
In an AP interview this month before an appearance in front of TV critics in California, Haggard described his sexuality as complex and something that can't be put into "stereotypical boxes."
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I wasn’t aware that gayness was permanent. Why are people quick to believe someone one when he/she declares to be gay. But, when someone gay says he/she ain’t, it always about so-called denial?
Is Ellen Degeneres’ ex-girlfriend, Anne Heche, still “gay”? She got with a guy within a year or two of splitting with Ellen.
What about Sinead O’Connor? She came out and said, point blank, she was a lesbian. 18 months later, she married a guy!
For some strange reason, I don’t hear anyone claiming that they’re in denial or that they’re still gay.
Then, there’s the one-time poster boy for the “Love Won Out” ministries, from Focus on the Family, Jon Paulk. Last time I checked, he and his ex-lesbian wife, Anne, have been married for 14 years and have three sons. And this was AFTER they left the homosexual lifestyle.
With regards to Haggard, he said he was molested as a child. If that's accurate, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that someone struggles with homosexuality, because of abuse. Pastor and gospel singer, Donnie McClurken, went through something similar, when one of his uncles molested him. He struggled with his sexuality. But, he says he's overcome. He's married with kids, as well.
Here's what I find interesting. For all the talk about how "hateful" and "bigoted" Christians are, with regards to this subject, you will notice that Christian people reached out to help Haggard, as they did with McClurken, and Paulk (after he got caught in gay night club and "outed" by a rep of the Human Rights Campaign).
As it relates to Paulk, Dr. James Dobson could have dropped him altogether. Instead, Paulk simply got demoted and put on probation, while the people at "Focus" helped him. Ironically enough, attendance at the "Love Won Out" conferences INCREASED after that incidenct. In 2003, Paulk retired, with blessings and well-wishes from the Focus on the Family staff (I believe Jon's wife, Anne, now has that chairman job for "Love Won Out" that Jon once had).
Basically, if one accepts someone's homosexuality at face value, I feel that the same should apply when people say that they've left homosexuality (unless there's evidence to the contrary).
sexuality is on a continium, its not the false dichotomy you have outlined, although there is some genetic and anatomical evidence for gayness.
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Ted Haggard was on Oprah today spilling his guts! ::)
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Ted Haggard was on Oprah today spilling his guts! ::)
I do believe that you have to go with Andrew Dice Clay on this one... Either you suck dick, or you do not suck dick.
That's pretty much all there is to it.
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man I wish Ted would just come out and say I did it and it was great, best sex ever! I am not embarrased and I am not apologizing, you should try it too!
jt
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man I wish Ted would just come out and say I did it and it was great, best sex ever! I am not embarrased and I am not apologizing, you should try it too!
jt
I would have mad respect for him if he did that.
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He will be on Larry King tonight.
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He will be on Larry King tonight.
Awesome what time?
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Awesome what time?
What am I... a TV guide? ??? Even if I gave you a time everyone on this board lives in different time zones. Check your local listings.
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What am I... a TV guide? ??? Even if I gave you a time everyone on this board lives in different time zones. Check your local listings.
I am sorry Bay, I didn't mean any disrespect.
jt
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/30/earlyshow/leisure/celebspot/main4764612.shtml
::)
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He most probably not gay, no matter how much you "men" wish he was.
I guess this church leader is also gay then :D
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I wasn’t aware that gayness was permanent. Why are people quick to believe someone one when he/she declares to be gay. But, when someone gay says he/she ain’t, it always about so-called denial?
Is Ellen Degeneres’ ex-girlfriend, Anne Heche, still “gay”? She got with a guy within a year or two of splitting with Ellen.
What about Sinead O’Connor? She came out and said, point blank, she was a lesbian. 18 months later, she married a guy!
For some strange reason, I don’t hear anyone claiming that they’re in denial or that they’re still gay.
Then, there’s the one-time poster boy for the “Love Won Out” ministries, from Focus on the Family, Jon Paulk. Last time I checked, he and his ex-lesbian wife, Anne, have been married for 14 years and have three sons. And this was AFTER they left the homosexual lifestyle.
With regards to Haggard, he said he was molested as a child. If that's accurate, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that someone struggles with homosexuality, because of abuse. Pastor and gospel singer, Donnie McClurken, went through something similar, when one of his uncles molested him. He struggled with his sexuality. But, he says he's overcome. He's married with kids, as well.
Here's what I find interesting. For all the talk about how "hateful" and "bigoted" Christians are, with regards to this subject, you will notice that Christian people reached out to help Haggard, as they did with McClurken, and Paulk (after he got caught in gay night club and "outed" by a rep of the Human Rights Campaign).
As it relates to Paulk, Dr. James Dobson could have dropped him altogether. Instead, Paulk simply got demoted and put on probation, while the people at "Focus" helped him. Ironically enough, attendance at the "Love Won Out" conferences INCREASED after that incidenct. In 2003, Paulk retired, with blessings and well-wishes from the Focus on the Family staff (I believe Jon's wife, Anne, now has that chairman job for "Love Won Out" that Jon once had).
Basically, if one accepts someone's homosexuality at face value, I feel that the same should apply when people say that they've left homosexuality (unless there's evidence to the contrary).
Good analysis McWay.
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Disgraced pastor is freed of gay urges, wife says
Ted Haggard’s wife says counseling has cured him of his compulsions
By Mike Celizic
It has been more than three years since charismatic pastor Ted Haggard left his megachurch in disgrace, mired in a scandal involving drug use and a male prostitute. But the woman who stood by him says now that the experience has brought them closer together than ever.
“Our relationship is better than it’s ever been. Going over this mountain together has given me the marriage that I’ve always longed for,” Gayle Haggard told TODAY’s Meredith Vieira Wednesday in New York.
Gayle Haggard had come to discuss her new book, “Why I Stayed: The Choices I Made in My Darkest Hour.” Although the process was painful, the answer, she writes, was simple: She loved her husband.
In 2006, the Haggards were an evangelical version of the American Dream. They had met as students at Oral Roberts University, fallen in love and gotten married. As they were starting their family of five children, they also started a church that first met in their Colorado Springs home.
With Gayle directing the women’s ministries and Ted driving the growth of the congregation, the New Life Church grew to a 14,000-member congregation, and Ted became the president of the National Association of Evangelicals. His counsel was sought by President George W. Bush.
And then, in November of that year, it all came crashing down. A homosexual prostitute, Mike Jones, angry at Haggard’s opposition to same-sex marriage, alleged that Haggard had been a client for several years and had also purchased methamphetamines from him.
Gayle told Vieira that when she first heard the accusations, she was in “total disbelief. I felt as though my marriage was at a healthy place. Everything in my life felt healthy at that time. I felt as though our family was doing well. Ted was clinging to me and felt closer to me than ever before. Our church felt healthy. That was probably the happiest time in my life up until that point . . . http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/35097496/ns/today-today_people/
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I wasn’t aware that gayness was permanent. Why are people quick to believe someone one when he/she declares to be gay. But, when someone gay says he/she ain’t, it always about so-called denial?
Is Ellen Degeneres’ ex-girlfriend, Anne Heche, still “gay”? She got with a guy within a year or two of splitting with Ellen.
What about Sinead O’Connor? She came out and said, point blank, she was a lesbian. 18 months later, she married a guy!
For some strange reason, I don’t hear anyone claiming that they’re in denial or that they’re still gay.
Then, there’s the one-time poster boy for the “Love Won Out” ministries, from Focus on the Family, Jon Paulk. Last time I checked, he and his ex-lesbian wife, Anne, have been married for 14 years and have three sons. And this was AFTER they left the homosexual lifestyle.
With regards to Haggard, he said he was molested as a child. If that's accurate, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that someone struggles with homosexuality, because of abuse. Pastor and gospel singer, Donnie McClurken, went through something similar, when one of his uncles molested him. He struggled with his sexuality. But, he says he's overcome. He's married with kids, as well.
Here's what I find interesting. For all the talk about how "hateful" and "bigoted" Christians are, with regards to this subject, you will notice that Christian people reached out to help Haggard, as they did with McClurken, and Paulk (after he got caught in gay night club and "outed" by a rep of the Human Rights Campaign).
As it relates to Paulk, Dr. James Dobson could have dropped him altogether. Instead, Paulk simply got demoted and put on probation, while the people at "Focus" helped him. Ironically enough, attendance at the "Love Won Out" conferences INCREASED after that incidenct. In 2003, Paulk retired, with blessings and well-wishes from the Focus on the Family staff (I believe Jon's wife, Anne, now has that chairman job for "Love Won Out" that Jon once had).
Basically, if one accepts someone's homosexuality at face value, I feel that the same should apply when people say that they've left homosexuality (unless there's evidence to the contrary).
if you had read any of the psychological research you would know that sexuality is likely a continuum, gayness is a natural state, look at animals.
It's not a choice like you would hope
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if you had read any of the psychological research you would know that sexuality is likely a continuum, gayness is a natural state, look at animals.
It's not a choice like you would hope
That goes back to the old saying, "If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts!"
I'm not going by what I "hope". I'm going by what those who've gone through this mess have stated in the matter.
At the heart of all of this is a simple moral issue: Is homosexual behavior right or wrong?
Notwithstanding the recent PC climate, the consensus answer is that it is wrong.
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I don't see how you can put any faith in "right or wrong."
At one time it was "right" to have sex with girls who were 14 and it was right to own slaves.
So to me, using "right or wrong" is completely pointless and only serves to make you feel better about what you personally think.
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I don't see how you can put any faith in "right or wrong."
At one time it was "right" to have sex with girls who were 14 and it was right to own slaves.
Every society has that kind of mininum. In this country, the age isn't much higher (on average). In many states, the minimum age of sexual consent is 16. And, in some states, girls can marry as young as 12, with parental consent. Ergo, they can have sex at age 12.
As far as slaves go, we had an interesting discussion on this issue months ago. The gist of it being that, from Biblical perspective, the "slaves" in the Bible were hardly the chattel slaves (i.e. black people in America) that we envision, when we hear the term.
So to me, using "right or wrong" is completely pointless and only serves to make you feel better about what you personally think.
You can put plenty of faith in "right or wrong".
You have faith that stealing is wrong. You have faith that lying is wrong. And, if you're married, I GUARANTEE YOU that you have faith that adultery is wrong.
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That goes back to the old saying, "If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts!"
I'm not going by what I "hope". I'm going by what those who've gone through this mess have stated in the matter.
At the heart of all of this is a simple moral issue: Is homosexual behavior right or wrong?
Notwithstanding the recent PC climate, the consensus answer is that it is wrong.
LMAO, why is it wrong and who are the consensus? closed minded bigots? lol.
in what way is it wrong?
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Boys Beware Homosexuals Are On The Prowl :)
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LMAO, why is it wrong and who are the consensus? closed minded bigots? lol.
in what way is it wrong?
The consensus would be nearly every society that has walked the face of this earth. I guess they're all "close-minded bigots", too.
In what way is it wrong? Please tell me you're joking!!
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The consensus would be nearly every society that has walked the face of this earth. I guess they're all "close-minded bigots", too.
In what way is it wrong? Please tell me you're joking!!
yes, im serious, in what way is it wrong? As we evolve and become more civilized i think you would be considered wrong, in fact i find it disgusting to a point that you think gayness is wrong, there is nothing wrong with gay people, nothing.
give me your reasoning that supports your contention,that gayness is wrong. define wrong for me also.
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That goes back to the old saying, "If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts!"
I'm not going by what I "hope". I'm going by what those who've gone through this mess have stated in the matter.
At the heart of all of this is a simple moral issue: Is homosexual behavior right or wrong?
Notwithstanding the recent PC climate, the consensus answer is that it is wrong.
well, your consensus. fortunately the APA and related organizations have disagreed with you.
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well, your consensus. fortunately the APA and related organizations have disagreed with you.
The APA were little more than quacks on the take for liberal politicans. They rank right up there with all those global warming scientists, who are getting royally embarassed, as "climate change" gets exposed for the ruse that it is.
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The APA were little more than quacks on the take for liberal politicans. They rank right up there with all those global warming scientists, who are getting royally embarassed, as "climate change" gets exposed for the ruse that it is.
very cavalier in dismissing medical groups; your personal opinion against an entire profession. thankfully, your opinion doesnt really count.
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very cavalier in dismissing medical groups; your personal opinion against an entire profession. thankfully, your opinion doesnt really count.
Again, the "climate gate" folks were an entire profession as well. Yet, we found out that, for all of the countless amounts of $$$$ spend on this foolishness known as global warming, it turned out to be what we (with common sense) knew from the start: A great big fraud.
And, that goes back to what I said earlier, when it comes to folks like you: "If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts."
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How do you know it's some kind of "fraud"?
Because there was lots of snow this year?
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Again, the "climate gate" folks were an entire profession as well. Yet, we found out that, for all of the countless amounts of $$$$ spend on this foolishness known as global warming, it turned out to be what we (with common sense) knew from the start: A great big fraud.
And, that goes back to what I said earlier, when it comes to folks like you: "If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts."
Not true, lol. Not true at all, the emails were taken out of context, would you like to see the evidence?
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Again, the "climate gate" folks were an entire profession as well. Yet, we found out that, for all of the countless amounts of $$$$ spend on this foolishness known as global warming, it turned out to be what we (with common sense) knew from the start: A great big fraud.
And, that goes back to what I said earlier, when it comes to folks like you: "If the facts don't match the theory, change the facts."
the data matches the theory perfectly, all sorts of data point to global warming, now the question is are we the cause or is it one of the natural ebbs and flows?
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if you had read any of the psychological research you would know that sexuality is likely a continuum, gayness is a natural state, look at animals.
It's not a choice like you would hope
You must believe what Dr. Hamer discovered.
Government_controlled/DEA_agent
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You must believe what Dr. Hamer discovered.
Government_controlled/DEA_agent
not sure what you're talking about but the bulk of the data points to sexuality as a balance, very few are polarized to either end of the spectrum. It's a fact, gayness occurs in nature, animals of the same sex fuck each other, humans who are animals, another fact, fuck the same sex also.
alot of people have gay tendencies, but choose not to act on them, people even feel dysphoria and acclimate to the other sex.
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not sure what you're talking about but the bulk of the data points to sexuality as a balance, very few are polarized to either end of the spectrum. It's a fact, gayness occurs in nature, animals of the same sex fuck each other, humans who are animals, another fact, fuck the same sex also.
alot of people have gay tendencies, but choose not to act on them, people even feel dysphoria and acclimate to the other sex.
but, but, the bible disagrees and we all know what a peer-reviewed and reliable document that is :P
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but, but, the bible disagrees and we all know what a peer-reviewed and reliable document that is :P
Far more reliable than the "Climate change" mess or the APA data (which may not be saying a whole lot).
Of course, the Bible has survived thousands of years of scrunity and will survive thousands more.
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Far more reliable than the "Climate change" mess or the APA data (which may not be saying a whole lot).
Of course, the Bible has survived thousands of years of scrunity and will survive thousands more.
I know one thing, the Bible IS the oldest surviving book on the planet. Another fact, is, the Bible has been attacked for ever since it's publication (many, many, moons ago), in hopes of it being put to death. What's the outcome? It is the BEST SELLER of ALL time! And, it has managed to be refined to the point, of backing it's claims! The Bible has put critics to SHAME! There is nothing left to criticize.
Government_Controlled/DEA_AGENT
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I know one thing, the Bible IS the oldest surviving book on the planet. Another fact, is, the Bible has been attacked for ever since it's publication (many, many, moons ago), in hopes of it being put to death. What's the outcome? It is the BEST SELLER of ALL time! And, it has managed to be refined to the point, of backing it's claims! The Bible has put critics to SHAME! There is nothing left to criticize.
Government_Controlled/DEA_AGENT
yes proven by the data showing lower iq and positive correlation with religiousness, or the rise in atheism. Ya noahs ark has been proven without a doubt, noah really was 600 years old right? i mean thats been proven, must of been on a greens supplement. The book is full of magic, moses parting a sea, parting a sea a physical impossibility. Strange how none of these magiczzzz never occur nowadays, dude walking on water, rising from the dead, talking snakes. I wish my cats could talk, is there a way to make it happen according to the bible? thanks in advance for you answer.
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yes proven by the data showing lower iq and positive correlation with religiousness, or the rise in atheism. Ya noahs ark has been proven without a doubt, noah really was 600 years old right? i mean thats been proven, must of been on a greens supplement. The book is full of magic, moses parting a sea, parting a sea a physical impossibility. Strange how none of these magiczzzz never occur nowadays, dude walking on water, rising from the dead, talking snakes. I wish my cats could talk, is there a way to make it happen according to the bible? thanks in advance for you answer.
yes proven by the data showing lower iq and positive correlation with religiousness, or the rise in atheism. Ya noahs ark has been proven without a doubt, noah really was 600 years old right? i mean thats been proven, must of been on a greens supplement. The book is full of magic, moses parting a sea, parting a sea a physical impossibility. Strange how none of these magiczzzz never occur nowadays, dude walking on water, rising from the dead, talking snakes. I wish my cats could talk, is there a way to make it happen according to the bible? thanks in advance for you answer.
LMCO! PLENTY of EVIDENCE to show a flood DID occure on this planet. :o
Government_Controlled/Dea_Agent
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LMCO! PLENTY of EVIDENCE to show a flood DID occure on this planet. :o
Government_Controlled/Dea_Agent
a worldwide flood? provide me this evidence please.
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Ted Haggard Starting New Church: Gay People Welcome, Gay Marriages Not So Much
by Jillian Rayfield
Rev. Ted Haggard gave a press conference today to make a "big announcement" about his career path.
And what an announcement it was! Outside of his home in Colorado Springs, with his family by his side, Haggard revealed...that he's starting a new church.
Haggard said that many may be believe he's "not qualified" to be a pastor again, but he thinks that "because of what we've been through" he's "qualified to help other people in need."
Haggard, of course, is referring to 2006, when he admitted to a homosexual affair amid allegations of drug use. He was founder and leader of the evangelical New Life Church at the time, but was excommunicated following the revelations.
He said that his new church -- St. James Church in Colorado Springs -- will welcome everyone, including those who are "gay, straight, bi, tall, short, whether you're an addict, a recovering addict, or you have an addict in your family."
"Democrats are are welcome, Republicans are welcome, independents are welcome," Haggard added.
Referring to the scandal as "the crash," Haggard noted that since it happened, "I don't judge people anymore."
However, he did emphasize that there will be no gay marriages performed in his church, because "God's ideal plan for a marriage is the union of a man and a woman." Haggard added that it's also "God's ideal that all of us have our weight under control," but that doesn't always happen.
"I don't want to be a political activist," Haggard said. "I want to help people."
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a leopard cant change his spots.
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>...will welcome everyone, including those who are "gay, straight, bi, tall, short, whether you're an addict, a recovering addict, or you have an addict in your family.
On other words he is desperate to have anyone come to his church because having a congregation gives him credibility. Sorry, his credibility is gone and it's not coming back. Haggard still doesn't get it: we want him to go away and stay away. ::)
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Good for him. Glad he apparently got his life together.
Although I do question whether he should be a preacher again.
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>...will welcome everyone, including those who are "gay, straight, bi, tall, short, whether you're an addict, a recovering addict, or you have an addict in your family.
On other words he is desperate to have anyone come to his church because having a congregation gives him credibility. Sorry, his credibility is gone and it's not coming back. Haggard still doesn't get it: we want him to go away and stay away. ::)
x2, he probably would prefer an all gay audience since he is gay. What is the point to this guy still trying to hide ????? Comon dude just come out and lose the wife and get a man, you know you want it!!