Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: OzmO on June 28, 2007, 01:53:58 PM
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Discuss.....
Try to be realistic ;)
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Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country.
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Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country.
Not to mention it becoming a hotbed for more militant Muslim organizations to take over where Saddam left off.
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Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country.
Why should we spend our money and the lives of our sons for that?
(Just trying to clarify our reasons for staying there.)
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Why should we spend our money and the lives of our sons for that?
(Just trying to clarify our reasons for staying there.)
Because we started the war.
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Not to mention it becoming a hotbed for more militant Muslim organizations to take over where Saddam left off.
Correct.
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Because we started the war.
Those men that are dying didn't start the war. The people who are paying right now didn't start the war.
I've held on to that argument myself for some time, but I'm starting to wonder now.
We are spending about 100 billion a year....(100 State of the art football stadiums or about 2 million 50K college scholarships per year.)
At what point do we realize that juice isn't worth the squeeze?
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Not to mention it becoming a hotbed for more militant Muslim organizations to take over where Saddam left off.
That already exists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Palestine and Syria.
Also Saddam wasn't a militant Muslim who considered dying for Islam an honorable thing. He was a dictator who valued his power and wealth and would do whatever needed to keep it.
These crazies have no problem dying for their cause.
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Those men that are dying didn't start the war. The people who are paying right now didn't start the war.
I've held on to that argument myself for some time, but I'm starting to wonder now.
We are spending about 100 billion a year....(100 State of the art football stadiums or about 2 million 50K college scholarships per year.)
At what point do we realize that juice isn't worth the squeeze?
The men and women who die in combat are never the ones who start the war.
You cannot just assume the money being spent on the war would be spent on some pet project (the items you listed would be paid for privately or by state/local governments). If we weren't spending $100 billion on the war, the feds would be wasting it somewhere else. :-\
We might reach the point of diminishing returns, but we have to be responsible. We cannot just leave. We have an obligation to help clean up the mess.
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We might reach the point of diminishing returns, but we have to be responsible. We cannot just leave. We have an obligation to help clean up the mess.
I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole. At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over. At that point the military should have packed up and gone home. What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that. We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there. More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.
The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war. It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now. Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place. Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.
BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.
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We should leave. Time to dump a few nukes on em and vamoose!
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I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole. At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over. At that point the military should have packed up and gone home. What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that. We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there. More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.
The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war. It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now. Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place. Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.
BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.
Thanks for your service 9 ball. Props to you.
I've heard others who have been on the ground say the same thing. We probably do have a finger in the dike, but we need to get more Iraqis trained to start policing the country. I've heard that a lot of Iraqi military are just lazy. They don't always show up for work, quit, and there is no penalty. They need to set up something like the UCMJ. I know a retired officer who is on the ground there now trying to help them put their laws together. Hopefully they can address this issue. This is part of the reason why we cannot leave now.
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That already exists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Palestine and Syria.
So, you're saying you want Iraq to join the party w/these countries? That makes alot of sense. :-\
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So, you're saying you want Iraq to join the party w/these countries? That makes alot of sense. :-\
Not for the price we are paying.
Our security won't change significantly. That's the basis of my argument in naming those other countries.
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Everybody seems to be in agreement..time to go..its the "how" that matters.
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Everybody seems to be in agreement..time to go..its the "how" that matters.
phased withdrawal across 2 years.
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Sure.....but they have to have a bigger military/police force...anyway sounds good but the Dems will want it faster. No issues when they take power.
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I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole. At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over. At that point the military should have packed up and gone home. What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that. We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there. More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.
The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war. It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now. Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place. Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.
BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.
9-Ball, thanks for what you do! :)
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I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole. At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over. At that point the military should have packed up and gone home. What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that. We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there. More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.
The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war. It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now. Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place. Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.
BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.
I liked the term before nation building..Winning the hearts and minds..did not work then or now. The military has one roll and once it's completed then need to be withdrawn. The useless goverment is to shortsighted and confused on military uses and abilities.
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I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole. At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over. At that point the military should have packed up and gone home. What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that. We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there. More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.
The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war. It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now. Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place. Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.
BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.
Great post, it's always more interesting hearing from the guys that are actually over there instead of the rest of us pontificating from the safety of our homes or offices.
I also love how we're getting to the point where soldiers and military personnel are starting to verbalize their negative points of view regarding Iraq. The honesty is needed.
I love how certain board neotaints still advocate war even in the face of OVERWHELMING evidence that our involvement in Iraq has been ridiculously inept and that nothing is going to change.
Keep fighting the good fight neotaints, and perhaps you could actually go over and do some of the fighting that you so vehemently advocate for.
Nothing better than a war monger that doesn't actual do any of the fighting.
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We break crap...thats what we do. I had an Afghan "mayor" tell the Civil Affairs guys I was with that unless they got a well built, they were going with the Taliban. He calls trashcanistan..we called it asscrackistan...either way it sucks.
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War has its place..but we're spinning our wheels in Iraq....Afghanistan is different to some degree. WE build crap for these folks..it helps some, but its mostly cover for our SOF folks to go in and kill badguys and keep an eye on others in Pakistan.
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War has its place..but we're spinning our wheels in Iraq....Afghanistan is different to some degree. WE build crap for these folks..it helps some, but its mostly cover for our SOF folks to go in and kill badguys and keep an eye on others in Pakistan.
DO you think it has more to do with the two religious groups killing each other in Iraq and not so much in Afganastan?
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Well their more tribal...u got the narco's...afghanistan is a mess but unless our guys get blown up in spectacular fashion, you just don't here about it. Until 10th Mountain launched Mountain Lion last year, and the cable news guys felt compelled to send people over, you never heard a word about it. Plenty of stuff was happening, but no news. We survived an IED attack outside the gate at Bagram, but until that guy blew himself up when the VP was there, u never heard about crap like that. I'd like to here what 9ball says about the Narco's.
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The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war. It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now. Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place. Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.
This is an interesting point. At what point do we let the Iraqi's settle this for themselves? We got rid of Saddam when is it their turn to figure out who runs the country and how it will be run?
At some point the Iraqi's have to take control of their own destiny.
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This is an interesting point. At what point do we let the Iraqi's settle this for themselves? We got rid of Saddam when is it their turn to figure out who runs the country and how it will be run?
At some point the Iraqi's have to take control of their own destiny.
study the history of Vietnam, it's a fantastic example. Once a country comes to grip with spending more time selling it's products and people and less with fighting itself the faster the turnaround. We pulled out in the 70's and by 75 the communinist were firmly in control. it's 2007 and they have moved to a country that is becoming capitiolist. so 30 years or so.
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Thats the big question...when does our responsibilty, those who invaded (right or wrong), end. We broke it..we tryed to fix it..those who are broke refuse to help fix themselves because of some idiotic crap that happend in the 7th Century. I feel we are responsible to fix it but I'm not signing anybody else up to get killed trying, so pulling out is better for the common good of the Services...time to pack our trash.
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study the history of Vietnam, it's a fantastic example. Once a country comes to grip with spending more time selling it's products and people and less with fighting itself the faster the turnaround. We pulled out in the 70's and by 75 the communinist were firmly in control. it's 2007 and they have moved to a country that is becoming capitiolist. so 30 years or so.
The Vietnamese are rational..despite that screwed up war..they were a hell of alot more rational then these nutbags..plus they don't have the most important natural resouce sitting under their feet. The damm rags could pull themselves out tommorrow and be driving BMW's by next week if they could stop killing themselves..I'm not holding my breath.
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The Vietnamese are rational..despite that screwed up war..they were a hell of alot more rational then these nutbags..plus they don't have the most important natural resouce sitting under their feet. The damm rags could pull themselves out tommorrow and be driving BMW's by next week if they could stop killing themselves..I'm not holding my breath.
Rational..Monks buring themselves with gasoline because of religious persocution is right down the same alley. There neighbor in cambodia killing people by the tens of thousands? Same situation sans oil.
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I agree about Cambodia.....but the rags are crazier and they will never get their shit together.
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I agree about Cambodia.....but the rags are crazier and they will never get their shit together.
I would have subed in the word stupid for crazy... ;D
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I'm losing the bubble on what to call these guys. Damm I'm board...its like Office Space around here. I'm in a friggen cube farm.
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I'm losing the bubble on what to call these guys. Damm I'm board...its like Office Space around here. I'm in a friggen cube farm.
PC Load letter...what the hell is that... ;D
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I built a color coded chart to track Leaves yesterday.....today i moved reports..much like TPS reports..from one cube to the next. Its so exciting. I think I'm single handedly winning the war on terrorism, one paper cut at a time. I may put myself in for a medal.
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I built a color coded chart to track Leaves yesterday.....today i moved reports..much like TPS reports..from one cube to the next. Its so exciting. I think I'm single handedly winning the war on terrorism, one paper cut at a time. I may put myself in for a medal.
Just a reminder.......don't forget to put a cover page on your TPS reports. :)
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I've heard that a lot of Iraqi military are just lazy. They don't always show up for work, quit, and there is no penalty.
Some of their officers are actually pretty good, it's the enlisted guys who have no sense of pride in what they do. They've always had a somewhat professional officer corps, but they have yet to develop that in their enlisted guys...no military can be successful with out a professional corps of enlisted NCOs. Hell, the Greeks and Romans both taught us that lesson.
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We break crap...thats what we do. I had an Afghan "mayor" tell the Civil Affairs guys I was with that unless they got a well built, they were going with the Taliban. He calls trashcanistan..we called it asscrackistan...either way it sucks.
Headhunter, sounds like you worked closely with, or for one of the PRT teams. That's pretty much what I do. I'm a USAF STS Targeteer and I work with the ODA bubbas. We do some security for the PRT and, like you said in one of your posts, keep an eye on the Pak border. I'm down here in Zabol Province, "Havin' Fun On Hwy One"
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The damm rags could pull themselves out tommorrow and be driving BMW's by next week if they could stop killing themselves..I'm not holding my breath.
You're speakin' the damn truth there. Afghanistan used to be a tourist mecca for skiing and backpacking back in the 60's. The Er Valley in Iraq is considered by many to be the literal cradle of life....they could make a killing on Eco-Tourism alone....but they just won't get their shit in stack.
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to kill as many arabs as humanly possible.
The Arabs in Iraq are doing a damn fine job of killing each other. Not only do they not need us around for that to continue, as soon as we leave, you'll see what the Shia clerics refer to as "The Night of The Long Knives".
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just not embryo's.
???
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Working? ??? YOu crack me up. YOu on crack? Dont talk steroids or war, you make a ass of youself.
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trust george w, foreign policy is his expertise.
I hope you aint seroius. W's idea of Foreign policy is, amnesty for Mex Fence jumpers.
Nice cheap labor for all his rich Buds.
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Headhunter, sounds like you worked closely with, or for one of the PRT teams. That's pretty much what I do. I'm a USAF STS Targeteer and I work with the ODA bubbas. We do some security for the PRT and, like you said in one of your posts, keep an eye on the Pak border. I'm down here in Zabol Province, "Havin' Fun On Hwy One"
Hey bro...I got to go everywhere and see everything.. I had AF guys and Marines under me over there last year..it was great..travel all over the place without alot of adult supervison. While my guys worked with most of the PRT's I worked with Bagram PRT and Panjsher PRT when i wanted a vacation. So nice up there..anyway if u need anything.... I think the SF group ur with now was there when we got there last year....We got on better with 3rd gruop..who replaced them...either way be safe. And keep posting.
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bush has to be in the top 5 of all u.s. presidents.
his genius is remarkable.
YOu Seroius? The dammage that Fuck up did is gona cause untold grief for centuries. Could be the first steps to the demise of mankind. Total Fucking loser.
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YOu Seroius? The dammage that Fuck up did is gona cause untold grief for centuries. Could be the first steps to the demise of mankind. Total Fucking loser.
He's just getting a rise out of everyone playing that side.
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are you mistakenly referring to bill clinton?
I think the main Damage Billy did was gut and make our intell services PC to the best of his ability.
The idea we can negotiate w/ Islam is nuts. Clinton had the good fortune of being Prez during
a fairly prosperous trouble free period. I dont like him, but it's doubtfull at this point that ANYONE
could have made a worse mess than W. Bush screwed w/ the natural order of things in the Mid East.
They are Barbarians that need a brutal leader like Saddam,Gadafi,etc.
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the pics of the kids reuniting/grieving their dad's got to me.
http://www.youtube.com/jp.swf?video_id=ervaMPt4Ha0&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/ervaMPt4Ha0/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskK_pZAMGZb1wX0Q07hqBPyT&autoplay=1 (http://www.youtube.com/jp.swf?video_id=ervaMPt4Ha0&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/ervaMPt4Ha0/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskK_pZAMGZb1wX0Q07hqBPyT&autoplay=1)
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Colossus, that was beautiful! That one pic of the father kissing that newborn, was precious.
For a minute, I thought he was gonna suck him up like a vacuum if he wasn't careful. :D
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why disrupt all the rebuilding that's going on?
besides, we're winning the war on terror.
Im not so sure about thet. Hit 9ballSlim up for a front line account. I'll go w/ his version and it jibes w/ my take. THis is a loss and waste. (Unless your a millitary contractor, then its a wet dream $> ;))
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Because we're so fucked up there we have to stay, the next Pres. will get us out.
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Because we're so fucked up there we have to stay, the next Pres. will get us out.
Dont bet on it friend. Oil. Lots of Oil. That region must be kept secure.
You stop and think for a min what happens when we leave?
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Dont bet on it friend. Oil. Lots of Oil. That region must be kept secure.
You stop and think for a min what happens when we leave?
Someone else profits from the oil. That's all.
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Someone else profits from the oil. That's all.
Picture if you will the mouth of the gulf close off for a month...
Empty grocery shelves..
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Picture if you will the mouth of the gulf close off for a month...
Empty grocery shelves..
Picture if you will, someone choosing not to profit.........
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Picture if you will, someone choosing not to profit.........
Right, profit motive heals all, in TIME. But the Talliban & Co WANTS to live in the Stone Age, they'z very comfortable there. That Nut running Iran is NOT concerned about $'z, and the word is that a lot of the wealthy
mullahs got they Ca$h out of the country when he took power. He wants to bring back from the dead that
9th century Imam cat who fell down the well and believes thaaat will usher in a new era of Islamic power after armagedon.
He wants to go out in a blaze of glory and take everyone along 4 the ride.
That's a major player who we really are fighting in Iraq.
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Picture if you will the mouth of the gulf close off for a month...
Empty grocery shelves..
It could get even worse than that. Most businesses will be shut down, ...except perhaps those of us who are priviledged enough to telecommute, ...or who work from home.
How is any kind of a business going to stay open if their employees cannot get to work.
You got a little garden out back? ... It would be the grapes of wrath revisited10 :o
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Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country.
Unfortunately there already is a civil war.
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It could get even worse than that. Most businesses will be shut down, ...except perhaps those of us who are priviledged enough to telecommute, ...or who work from home.
How is any kind of a business going to stay open if their employees cannot get to work.
You got a little garden out back? ... It would be the grapes of wrath revisited10 :o
Its really not a pretty picture and I think its a matter of time. The Oil Pros like Boone Pickens say, if we'd lose Saudi, even for awhile, oil almost doubles. That's $6.50 gal gas.
At thet point, frankly, a lot of Americans may as well not bother going to work. Theyd need a loan to cover the fule.
THis BS aint about Democracy or Human rights, thats all smokescreen. Its about keeping the cars and factories running
around the planet. Religion is a complication.
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This is an interesting point. At what point do we let the Iraqi's settle this for themselves? We got rid of Saddam when is it their turn to figure out who runs the country and how it will be run?
At some point the Iraqi's have to take control of their own destiny.
Unfortunately we went in there with the intentions(as it was sold) to bring democracy to leave without accomplishing that would make us liars. Also, when you refer to Iraqis taking control over there own destiny to whom to you refer, Sunnis, Shia, Kurds, Secularists. Thats part of the problem. You have different groups of people with different visions of how the country should be fighting over it. I think that fits the qualities of a civil war.
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Democracy has nothing to do w/ why we there.
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You stop and think for a min what happens when we leave?
No more dead Americans?
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No more dead Americans?
That is a very good point, untill we go back to a even biger mess. Totally F'd up oil supply.
Neutron bombs need a live test IMO. Boots on the ground wont work. Kill them all if necessary, sorry.
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Its really not a pretty picture and I think its a matter of time. The Oil Pros like Boone Pickens say, if we'd lose Saudi, even for awhile, oil almost doubles. That's $6.50 gal gas.
At thet point, frankly, a lot of Americans may as well not bother going to work. Theyd need a loan to cover the fule.
THis BS aint about Democracy or Human rights, thats all smokescreen. Its about keeping the cars and factories running around the planet. Religion is a complication.
Absolutely! And in the meantime, we need to lower our fuel consumption. The less fuel we consume, the less demand, and the more stable our economy will be. Rising fuel costs have such a devastating impact, not only on the consumer at the pump, ...the bigger cost which most people don't see is what it does to our entire infrastructure. Everything goes up as a result, because those end costs are factored into the prices we as consumers pay.
ie: Your protein powders and your bodybuilding supps go up in price cause it costs more for the truckers to get it to you. Transportation companies who are able to get their goods across the country at the lowest cost per mile, are the big winners in times of higher fuel prices. They can put in the lowest bids without having to tack on a "fuel surcharge". Anyone who has traveled lately has seen that one. Infact, if you've mailed a letter lately, you've seen postal rates go up. Again "fuel surcharge". I know Walmart has a pretty low cost per mile to get goods into their stores. ;) Hmmm... in Texas, ...they call that a clue. :P
I had posted the below response to a prediction of $10/gallon gas in another thread, but for some reason, it was deleted twice, with no explaination from any political MOD as to why. Despite a request for clarification from a mod none was forthcoming, so i only assume it was a technical glitch. I think it appropriate for this thread as well, because it speaks to the heart of what trab is saying. It's about keeping the cars and factories around the world running. It's so much bigger than simply crying "I'm paying too much" because as we've seen recently, there will come a time when you will be happy to pay it. You will be happy to even have gas to put in your car, and happy that someone has gas to get your goods to market. I don't know about you, ...but overalls aren't my best look. I don't see myself growing my own food anytime soon. I want those shelves in my local supermarket well stocked with produce that doesn't cost and arm & a leg to get it there.
...then watch as people are paying 10 bucks for gas...
By then, ...many of us will be filthy F-ing RICH, ...never having to pay-out-of-pocket for fuel ever again!
Currently, there are 3 types of people in this world:
- Those who watch things happen :-\
- Those who make things happen :)
- ...and those who wonder... what happened? ???
I believe that in the future, there will also be 3 different types of people:
- Those who will continue to pay full price for fuel @ $10/gallon, or possibly more :o
- Those who will save money on fuel (http://jme.mpgproduct.com/default.aspx?cid=50962), while simultaneously reducing emissions from their vehicles :D
- Those of us who will save on fuel, AND make money (http://www.jaguarenterprises.biz), expanding the market for our products (http://jme.mpgproduct.com) 8)
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Discuss.....
Try to be realistic ;)
Good job stealing my old avatar buddy.
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I'd like to add one more thing, ...when I posted the above I was accused of blatant spamming by goatboy to which I responded:
Not at all Goatboy. That would be starting a thread for the sole purpose of saying buy this product.
What I did was echo AS's sentiments, because I believe there will come a time when North American's will be paying $10/gallon or more, for fuel. They're already there in Turkey, and in Ireland, ...and it's only a matter of time before that occurs here too. Here in Canada we are already at $5/ gallon.
All that would be required for it to reach $10/gallon is for it to double in price.
Considering what has happened to fuel prices these last few months, ...let alone years,
...fuel prices doubling, is hardly a preposterous or implausible occurence is it? Infact, it's pretty much assured. And factoring in what hurricane season may have in store for some of the gulf refineries... it doesn't look promising.
I sincerely believe there will be 3 types of people. I say this not because I have a financial interest in these products, but quite the contrary. I have a financial interest in these products, ...because of my belief level.
You can count me in as part of that 3rd. group of people inciteful enough to put all the myriad pieces of the puzzle together to see the big picture. People smart enough and decisive enough to take action. We position ourselves in such a way that the wind blows into our sails to carry us whichever way we choose to steer, ...as opposed to that group of people who constantly get knocked about by life, always trying to pee in the wind, letting the breeze blow them willy nilly, or worse, ...running in a particular direction, while "buckin' and frontin' a headwind" (I just love trucker terminology) :D
So ya, it's my learned opinion that I will be part of the group that will not only be able to save money on fuel, while being able to reduce vehicular emissions into the atmosphere,, this will also enable me to do my part to combat global climate change & ground level ozone, ...AND to also make money expanding the market for these incredibly effective and much needed products (http://jme.mpgproduct.com/default.aspx?cid=50962) around the globe. Bonus! Lucky me. 8)
The next president of the USA will have to deal with all these issues, ...and I think Hilary Clinton will be very adept at doing so, ...moreso than the current one in office. I still remember her taking on Dick Armey in her first few year in the White House, ...and that was when she was green. Now, after 8 years in the White House, and 8 years in the Senate, ...she knows her way around Washington, ...and can probably do much, much better at tackling some of the urgent issues that need to be addressed, ...one of which is how to steer the ship and manage the country in a time of peak oil.
I'd love to see AS's vote go to Hilary if she is the democratic candidate, ...as well as HH6's.
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ps - I would like for this to be the last post I am required to make about this. ThankYou
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Unfortunately there already is a civil war.
True. It is pretty much contained and will probably explode as soon as we leave.
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That is a very good point, untill we go back to a even biger mess. Totally F'd up oil supply.
Neutron bombs need a live test IMO. Boots on the ground wont work. Kill them all if necessary, sorry.
Well we haven't had a Neutron bomb for at least 15 years so good luck on that one. 2ndly, the kill em all theory is the one we started out with on this mission and it's not working. As far as an F'd up oil supply there really is no such thing because the Saudi's control the oil and the only thing they care about besides themselves is money so oil will always flow as long as people continue to buy it.
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True. It is pretty much contained and will probably explode as soon as we leave.
Beach, it's not contained! You've been fed a bunch of garbage.
Just step back for a minute. Why is it the rest of the world knew what you Americans are only now just finding out about? It's the same with the surge. The rest of the world knows what is happening, but you are still listening to the lies and the propaganda disseminated from FOX News. It is ALREADY exploding... EVERYDAY!
More than likely it will come to a head after the US is gone, however, the US presence is dragging it out. Far worse, the US presence is also "fertilizing" more & more terrorists. I put it in quotes cause that's what the NIE chose to call it. Remember that?
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/fertilizer.jpg)
If the US wasn't there, ...it would all be over in very short order, ...and a winner will emerge.
The problem is, the US already knows who would win if that were to happen, and the natural power vacuum would tip the balance of power away from the status quo into an area that certain people do not want. But the longer they stall, the more power that side gains.
The challenge thereto is that Iran has learned the lessons of it's own history very well,
...and is preparing itself to face the potential threat on it's doors. Will post more about that later.
If Iranian society is powered by nuclear energy, and without the need for fossil fuels, an embargo of the straits of Hormuz through which a good percentage of the world fuel supply flows, would not impact them as greatly as it would a nation whose infrastructure is dependant on the flow of oil.
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Beach, it's not contained! You've been fed a bunch of garbage.
Just step back for a minute. Why is it the rest of the world knew what you Americans are only now just finding out about? It's the same with the surge. The rest of the world knows what is happening, but you are still listening to the lies and the propaganda disseminated from FOX News. It is ALREADY exploding... EVERYDAY!
More than likely it will come to a head after the US is gone, however, the US presence is dragging it out. Far worse, the US presence is also "fertilizing" more & more terrorists. I put it in quotes cause that's what the NIE chose to call it. Remember that?
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/fertilizer.jpg)
If the US wasn't there, ...it would all be over in very short order, ...and a winner will emerge.
The problem is, the US already knows who would win if that were to happen, and the natural power vacuum would tip the balance of power away from the status quo into an area that certain people do not want. But the longer they stall, the more power that side gains.
The challenge thereto is that Iran has learned the lessons of it's own history very well,
...and is preparing itself to face the potential threat on it's doors. Will post more about that later.
If Iranian society is powered by nuclear energy, and without the need for fossil fuels, an embargo of the straits of Hormuz through which a good percentage of the world fuel supply flows, would not impact them as greatly as it would a nation whose infrastructure is dependant on the flow of oil.
You might have a point if I only got my news from Fox, but that's not the case. I get my news from liberal and conservative sources and from the guys on the ground. It isn't a full-scale civil war yet. I trust the soldiers on the ground more than you. Sorry. :)
I'm on my way to the air force base to meet a very close friend who is returning from Iraq today. I'll ask him.
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I think I would probably have to agree with the jaguar lady and her arginine with respect to this:
If the US wasn't there, ...it would all be over in very short order, ...and a winner will emerge.
and the winner won't be the people we need winning. Just by sheer #'s the shiites win and then Iran has a yellow brick road right through Iraq to the rest of the Muslim nutcases in Syria. It's a real mother f'er..
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Well we haven't had a Neutron bomb for at least 15 years so good luck on that one. 2ndly, the kill em all theory is the one we started out with on this mission and it's not working. As far as an F'd up oil supply there really is no such thing because the Saudi's control the oil and the only thing they care about besides themselves is money so oil will always flow as long as people continue to buy it.
...but at what price?
I think I had said in another thread, there is the possibility that north America will soon go the way of some countries where only the extremely rich will own cars, ...everyone else will be on donkeys or horseback.
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You might have a point if I only got my news from Fox, but that's not the case. I get my news from liberal and conservative sources and from the guys on the ground. It isn't a full-scale civil war yet. I trust the soldiers on the ground more than you. Sorry. :)
Sorry... even though it was what I said, ...I didn't mean to imply that YOU only got stuff from FOX. I know you are more learned than that. I meant it in a general sense.
I'm on my way to the air force base to meet a very close friend who is returning from Iraq today. I'll ask him.
Fabulous!!! Give him a big kiss from me, and tell him there's a Leftist, hippie, tree-hugging, granola crunching, vegetarian, Liberal from Canada who is very happy he's home. ;D
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...but at what price?
I think I had said in another thread, there is the possibility that north America will soon go the way of some countries where only the extremely rich will own cars, ...everyone else will be on donkeys or horseback.
Whatever price the market will bare until it can't bare it no more pumkin...
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I think I would probably have to agree with the jaguar lady and her arginine with respect to this:
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/rotflmao.gif)
That made me bust out laughing so hard, I could just pee.
and the winner won't be the people we need winning. Just by sheer #'s the shiites win and then Iran has a yellow brick road right through Iraq to the rest of the Muslim nutcases in Syria. It's a real mother f'er..
It gets even better than that... The Saudi's have officially gone on record as saying that if the US leaves Iraq,
...they will "aggressively" back the Sunni minority. The same people who were in power before the invasion.
Picture this little scenario: The Shiite's are the majority and aligned with a rich prosperous Iraq. the Sunni's are the minority, and backed by rich prosperous Saudi's.
Now we have Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia the three biggest oil producers in the world, locked in a vicious war.
Do you think the price of gas is bad so far... hang on, ...you ain't seen nothing yet.
...who are you going to turn to... the 4th major oil producer... Nigeria? ...a country already experiencing violence and a huge impetus to nationalize their oil fields. There are some serious people over there killing foreign oil workers. They want Nigerian oil wealth to benefit Nigeria, ...besides, Nigeria is already doing a very brisk trade with China.
My money would be on China getting Nigerian oil before we North Americans get it... let's move on shall we... there's always... Venezuela! :D
Either way you cut it, ...it's a mess, ...or an opportunity. ;)
The Chinese as well as Sanskrit symbol for a stumbling block or challenge, when flipped translates to opportunity.
I guess, since I do not have the solution to the disgusting mess in Iraq, I'll look for the opportunity in all of this,
...but that's just me. If life gives me lemons, ...not only will I make yummy thirst quenching lemonade, ...I will plant the seeds, that will produce more lemons, ...that will make more lemonade, and yield even more seeds, ...which will be planted, which will produce even more lemons... til pretty soon, there'll be over a hundred thousand thriving lemon groves, and producing over 100 million glasses of thirst quenching lemonade all over the world.
...192 countries in only 18 months so far :P
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The Saudi's have officially gone on record as saying that if the US leaves Iraq,
...they will "aggressively" back the Sunni minority.
The Saudi's are full of shit, all they care about is money. They'll insulate themselves from the insanity as best they can and turn a blind eye like they always do. Don't hold your breath if you expect them to save the day..
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The Saudi's are full of shit, all they care about is money. They'll insulate themselves from the insanity as best they can and turn a blind eye like they always do. Don't hold your breath if you expect them to save the day..
The Saudi's may be stinkin Rich, but they in a precarious position.
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Whatever price the market will bare until it can't bare it no more pumkin...
Aw shucks, ...you called me pumkin. {blush}
But how do we know when that is? I remember when gas hit 70 ¢ /litre up here. People were flipping out.
Then it rose to up to $1/litre. Then when various unnamed elites manipulated things right before the US mid terms, by shorting oil futures (while the average joe was going long) the prices at the pumps went down to 80¢ / litre, and people had smiles on their faces that gas was cheap again. ::) HELLO!!!! The lights are on, ...but is anyone home?
The manipulation is going to continue and continue and continue til pretty soon the price at the pump will DROP to $10/gallon, ...and people will be cheering and singing "Happy Days are here again..."
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The Saudi's are full of shit, all they care about is money. They'll insulate themselves from the insanity as best they can and turn a blind eye like they always do. Don't hold your breath if you expect them to save the day..
Who said anything about the Saudi's saving the day? I think it would only make things worse.
It was Saudi money to begin with that started this whole 911 mess IMO. Valerie Plame was well positioned to glean insights into the speculation that Saudi oil production had reached it's peak, ...but since her cover was blown in so treasonous a manner, she was not able to confirm it.
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At well before $10 gal, somethings gonna give, in a BIg way. Like mushroom clouds.
$10gal will not work. There will be a lot of blood spilled.
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The Saudi's may be stinkin Rich, but they in a precarious position.
They stand to lose alot if US interests don't go the way they want them to,
...however the US stands to lose a lot more.
ie: Me & Bill Gates both invest $5 million dollars. The investment tanks.
Bill Gates goes on, ...annoyed at the propect of losing money,
...I on the other hand am devastatingly wiped out
If the Saudi's pulled their money out of the USA... it would be the grapes of wrath20
Then too, ...i wonder what would happen if and when the Chinese start calling in the USA's debt.
You know.. all the debt the USA is incurring to China to underwrite this quagmire.
In certain third world countries, their debts are forgiven contingent upon the debtor nation adhereing to a policy that thwarts it's own growth ie: refusal to educate their citizens. Generation after generation growing up illiterate and in poverty. A vicious cycle that just repeats. You don't suppose the same thing could happen in America do you? :o The Chinese dictating US domestic policy. Nah... that's too far fetched... as far fetched as speculating that those charged with defending the US Constitution might actually trample it underfoot. It could never happen... could it?
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The chineeze would be slitting they own throats if they suddenly up and bailed out of US Dollar position.
They behind the 8 ball. They holding too many, Start to dump them, and they kill their own value.
Naaa... Everything on the planet is, and will stay valuated in Benjamin's for a long time.
They simply be worth less and less...
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At well before $10 gal, somethings gonna give, in a BIg way. Like mushroom clouds.
$10gal will not work. There will be a lot of blood spilled.
I wonder about that. If such a thing were to happen, I wonder who'd actually do it... not just be blamed
I know there is one nuclear power that has gone on record as saying that if they go,
...they are taking everyone with them, ...and no they are not muslim.
I think $10/gallon would work, everything else would rise accordingly, but the $10/gallon figure would have to be implemented at a snail's pace, kind of like cooking a frog, 1 small little degree at a time, ...but only provided the oil continued to flow.
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The chineeze would be slitting they own throats if they suddenly up and bailed out of US Dollar position.
They behind the 8 ball. They holding too many, Start to dump them, and they kill their own value.
Naaa... Everything on the planet is, and will stay valuated in Benjamin's for a long time.
The invasion took care of that, ...considering Saddam wanted to sell his oil in Euros. But you know, ...if the US did leave Iraq, and someone else took over, ...peace was finally restored to the region, ...what's to stop him from selling his oil in Euro's?
They simply be worth less and less...
Well they can't get much lower... I went to the bank on Friday before checking my mailbox. I cashed a US dollar cheque, the exchange rate had to be seen to be believed :'( When I got home I went to the mailbox, and found another US$ cheque, I still haven't run to deposit it. It's getting to the point now, where instead of depositing US$ cheques into my US$ bank account and letting the funds sit there. As soon as I deposit it, I transfer the whole thing into Cdn funds, and let it sit in the Cdn dollar account instead. The depreciation of your dollar is killing me.
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The invasion took care of that, ...considering Saddam wanted to sell his oil in Euros. But you know, ...if the US did leave Iraq, and someone else took over, ...peace was finally restored to the region, ...what's to stop him from selling his oil in Euro's?
Well they can't get much lower... I went to the bank on Friday before checking my mailbox. I cashed a US dollar cheque, the exchange rate had to be seen to be believed :'( When I got home I went to the mailbox, and found another US$ cheque, I still haven't run to deposit it. It's getting to the point now, where instead of depositing US$ cheques into my US$ bank account and letting the funds sit there. As soon as I deposit it, I transfer the whole thing into Cdn funds, and let it sit in the Cdn dollar account instead. The depreciation of your dollar is killing me.
This shit gets intricate. BUT There aint enough Euros to do the job of being t he worlds primary exchange currency
and making enough would not be in they interest. Now, yes the US $ is sitting at a alltime low, on feeble support as you'z know if a Chartist (Technical Analysis) but I thik it sits right there. The Chineze just keep on cheapen their stuff to keep the factories rolling. They cant call that debt. They cant cash out, theres no point to anyway. Just game tokens.
The big and only threat is these fanatic Muslims mucking up oil security IMO.
If that ever becomes a REAL issue (And its lookin like it will in time) the US Europe and everyone else will have no choice but to exterminate them if necessary. And anyone who believes we adhere to weapon treaties and dont have the shit & will to do it is naive.
I got full faith there is boys w/ contingency plans in DOD to operate w/ out our Govt at all. There HAS to be.
These stone age animals are gonna push and push until they get their wish.
Exchange rates are a funny thing. I missed a killer chance in 1999 :'(. You could Gamble long term and hold them US $'z. I do feel they worth more end game. Europe just dont have the resources and capacity to match.
This aint no Patriotic drivel, I got none that.
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Sorry... even though it was what I said, ...I didn't mean to imply that YOU only got stuff from FOX. I know you are more learned than that. I meant it in a general sense.
Fabulous!!! Give him a big kiss from me, and tell him there's a Leftist, hippie, tree-hugging, granola crunching, vegetarian, Liberal from Canada who is very happy he's home. ;D
Thanks for the clarification and the compliment. :)
I gave him a big hug, but passed on the kiss. :D Good to have him home. I've attended numerous homecoming events and they all give me chicken skin. They play the Rocky theme as the soldiers march in. Chaplain gives a prayer. National anthem. Army fight song. Division song. Remarks by the commander. Unit is dismissed and the hugs and tears begin. Almost makes me want to sign up again. :)
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This shit gets intricate. BUT There aint enough Euros to do the job of being t he worlds primary exchange currency
and making enough would not be in they interest. Now, yes the US $ is sitting at a alltime low, on feeble support as you'z know if a Chartist (Technical Analysis) but I thik it sits right there. The Chineze just keep on cheapen their stuff to keep the factories rolling. They cant call that debt. They cant cash out, theres no point to anyway. Just game tokens.
The big and only threat is these fanatic Muslims mucking up oil security IMO.
If that ever becomes a REAL issue (And its lookin like it will in time) the US Europe and everyone else will have no choice but to exterminate them if necessary. And anyone who believes we adhere to weapon treaties and dont have the shit & will to do it is naive.
I got full faith there is boys w/ contingency plans in DOD to operate w/ out our Govt at all. There HAS to be.
These stone age animals are gonna push and push until they get their wish.
It's not the contingency plans of the DoD guys that I consider so worrisome, ...it's those of those damned spooks.
The blowback is always a biyatch!
Exchange rates are a funny thing. I missed a killer chance in 1999 :'(. You could Gamble long term and hold them US $'z. I do feel they worth more end game. Europe just dont have the resources and capacity to match.
This aint no Patriotic drivel, I got none that.
No doubt, ...but the question is... will my grandchildren be eating with their own teeth when it happens?
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Unfortunately we went in there with the intentions(as it was sold) to bring democracy to leave without accomplishing that would make us liars.
??? :-\ {pssst} I think the verdict on that one has been previously rendered. ;)
Also, when you refer to Iraqis taking control over there own destiny to whom to you refer, Sunnis, Shia, Kurds, Secularists. Thats part of the problem. You have different groups of people with different visions of how the country should be fighting over it. I think that fits the qualities of a civil war.
I was chatting with an Iraqi tonight. He's a Christian Iraqi originally from Baghdad, who emigrated here 14 yrs ago,
... he seemed to feel that it is the Sunnis who are best suited to take control.
It was his opinion that the Sunnis who had always been in charge there were the proper choice to bring balance.
A frequent lament I've heard from Christian Iraqi's is "It's not my home anymore, ...as a Christian, ...there is no place for me there." :'( They then go on to say "What's going on there, was never like that under Saddam". He says much of his family who have fled to Jordan, Syria, and a number of other places, (along with the majority of other Christian Iraqi refugees) all feel the violence is a tool of a covert war taking place between USA & Iran) He said "The iraqi people aren't stupid. Everybody over there knows what's going on. "The USA... they send their people in, ...then the Iranians, ...they send their people in there too." When the subject got around to Saudi Arabia, his response was dismissive saying "The Saudis, ...they already have their people in there." They will keep this going because they don't want to see Iraqi's become 'one hand' as we were before" Meaning of course united, Sunni, Shiite, Kurd, Christian, Secularist living side by side in peace with their neighbours the way it was under Saddam. One thing he said his family and so many other Christian Iraqis want to know is "How & Why". He said "We want to ask Mr Bush, how could you do this, back such conflict among those groups, ...and just leave the Christians there? How could he do that?" as he shook his head in disbelief.
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I've attended numerous homecoming events and they all give me chicken skin. They play the Rocky theme as the soldiers march in. Chaplain gives a prayer. National anthem. Army fight song. Division song. Remarks by the commander. Unit is dismissed and the hugs and tears begin. Almost makes me want to sign up again. :)
:-\ ::) As if the world doesn't already have more than enough religious fundamentalists aching for martyrdom ::)
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:-\ ::) As if the world doesn't already have more than enough religious fundamentalists aching for martyrdom ::)
The world needs American patriots to protect the right of a Canadian snake oil salesman to peddle her wares to unsuspecting American suckers. Sad huh?
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Why should we spend our money and the lives of our sons for that?
(Just trying to clarify our reasons for staying there.)
Because no one ever got anywhere is the history of man without sacrificing something.
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Because no one ever got anywhere is the history of man without sacrificing something.
gREAT, you sacrifice, be my guest!
I like my nuts right where they are. There is sacrifice for a reason, and there is pointless waste of life.
Unfortunately we are in a little dilema here. This is NOT about Democracy and Human rights.
This about keeping the wheels of production rolling and the lights on.
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I, believe regardless of the outcome, that will will be there until another president is elected.
There is so much political interest in Iraq. By that I mean, money ventures. Im not going to name the American companies who have contracts in Iraq but someone is definately profitting from this. If a person says that war doesnt bring anything but destruction is wrong. War creates job and is making someone very very wealthy.
Regardless if we do pull out or stay, I dont believe Iraq will get any better.
There is a saying..."the more we provoke, winter will come twice" I believe this is happening and more Moslems will be infuriated.
Since day one from when the bombings in Iraq took place, I knew what was going to happen...oil/gas prices were going to go way up, looting was going to happen, etc. It wasnt hard to predict at all
Being a military member, I cannot talk ill of our President but we military arent stupid. We do know whats going on and the exact reason we invaded Iraq.
We signed a contract to obey our military leaders and our Commander in Chief. To support and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foriegn and domestic. Regardless of our leadership from politicians, it is still our country wether she maybe doing the wrong things or the right things...
To secure peace is to prepare for war.
But one thing I do believe that the events that are transpiring is going to lead to a one world government and one world leader who is going to bring some sort of peace to this world.
I can predict many things will happen as well and remember I said them here:
1. Israel will be the focus in the Middle East. Things that are happening today in Iraq and to other Moslem countries will ultimately affect Israel. Muslim aggressions are rising and Israel will be their focus. Things that are happening today is fueling their hatred for israel.
2. There will be other conflicts/wars but this isnt going to bring on world war 3 yet....more things are to happen in order for this to happen
3. The world is going to be so fucked up that they are going to need a one world government who will set up a one world currency where no one could buy or sell unless you are part of it. Someone is going to have to bring peace to the Muslim countries...a leader is going to come who will bring this "peace"
4. In order for this one world government to happen, something so climactic and aweful needs to happen...
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http://www.generaldynamics.com/
Pull up a share price chart.
Also: ATK,LMT,BA,
Raytheon, northrup gruman, Big money wants this to NEVER a stop.