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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: homer77 on June 28, 2007, 06:00:49 PM
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hi,
i have been dealing with this issue for some time now. i was raised "born again" christian since the age of 2. I have learned much throught the years. I have watched how the church is run, how people act, the teachings of the bible, and the whole social interaction/ production of the church. i enjoy learning and sharing all points of view. i see that there are many faiths of the world and everyone thinks they are right mostly because they were raised that way. there are converts who are trying to find their way or faith too. who's to say who is right and who is wrong?! why do people die everyday in the name of faith?! i do believe that there is an allmighty power or god who created everything- the unmoved mover (st thomas aquinas). maybe god is just an engraved part of my personality or subconsious that my parents put there. they would freakin flip if they heard this. then again i have been sticking them with tough faith questions for years. the toughest one was speaking in tongues. evry week i got to church and immidiatly there are people speaking in tongues. in the bible it says thjat the holy spirit consumed them and they were actually speaking real languages. what i hear each week is mubbling and tongue twisting blaber. its non sense. is the holy spirit really making them do that as soon as they walk into service. my parents responce was "its just our prayer language". and what exact language is that?! ohh shatabababa ba da - umcomadadadada. sorry- i have watched and learned how people fall into the act and group think.
the teachings of the vivle or any book of faith was written by man. how do we really know they were inspired by god? the creator of the mormon faith was inspired. have you ever heard that story?!
the bible- old testament- i truely feel they are tall tales. they were not written until hundreds to thousands of years later. over they years stories get greater and greater. and who knows what the catholic church did to the bible during the middle ages and the reformation. they were to power in europe and people in power would do any thing to make things go their way.
wow, i am ranting now. any one else share my frustration?
dont go attacking me now. its just whats been battling in my head.
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turn over to buddhism, you'll feel better. A LOT better.
Trust me. ;D ;D
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Take the religion out of the equation. If you believe in something and feel connected then continue move in that direction. IMHO as a christian I find people get to caught up in conforming to what type of christian or musulem or jew they are and miss the big picture. To me all religions have the basic tenents, and if you step back and look you will see more of the same and less of the different. There is a story in the bible about the tower of Babel and the spreading of the peoples and changing of language, if you look at that in a big picture sense could then we all not be on the same path but at different starting spots?
IMHO people read the bible like its the word of God and I think that right there is wrong. It hs been touched by to many hands and has to much that conflice and I find it a great read and a open door but for me the answer has always been prayer. I can talk and recieve answers if I open myself and I am willing to be humble and follow the path that has been laid before me. You can get many ways in life as long as you have faith in something.call it what you will but try calling and listening and see if that helps. it's not always easy with everything going on, but I bet if you asked for help you would get it. God does not let a single sheep wander in the dark alone that is asking for guidence.
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thanks,
i agree with the idea that almost all religions are basically the same. why cant people get over their petty differences and try to see that. i was amazed that someone acyually agreed with my views on the bible.
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http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
watch the first portion of this movie, it explains how christianity is based on paganism and is a lie.
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that was some movie! watched the whole thing. i want to research the sources now.
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that was some movie! watched the whole thing. i want to research the sources now.
yes jesus is a myth. however, i like "his" teachings.
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hi,
i have been dealing with this issue for some time now. i was raised "born again" christian since the age of 2. I have learned much throught the years. I have watched how the church is run, how people act, the teachings of the bible, and the whole social interaction/ production of the church. i enjoy learning and sharing all points of view. i see that there are many faiths of the world and everyone thinks they are right mostly because they were raised that way. there are converts who are trying to find their way or faith too. who's to say who is right and who is wrong?! why do people die everyday in the name of faith?! i do believe that there is an allmighty power or god who created everything- the unmoved mover (st thomas aquinas). maybe god is just an engraved part of my personality or subconsious that my parents put there. they would freakin flip if they heard this. then again i have been sticking them with tough faith questions for years. the toughest one was speaking in tongues. evry week i got to church and immidiatly there are people speaking in tongues. in the bible it says thjat the holy spirit consumed them and they were actually speaking real languages. what i hear each week is mubbling and tongue twisting blaber. its non sense. is the holy spirit really making them do that as soon as they walk into service. my parents responce was "its just our prayer language". and what exact language is that?! ohh shatabababa ba da - umcomadadadada. sorry- i have watched and learned how people fall into the act and group think.
the teachings of the vivle or any book of faith was written by man. how do we really know they were inspired by god? the creator of the mormon faith was inspired. have you ever heard that story?!
the bible- old testament- i truely feel they are tall tales. they were not written until hundreds to thousands of years later. over they years stories get greater and greater. and who knows what the catholic church did to the bible during the middle ages and the reformation. they were to power in europe and people in power would do any thing to make things go their way.
wow, i am ranting now. any one else share my frustration?
dont go attacking me now. its just whats been battling in my head.
Hi homer77! It's okay to question your faith. I see that you were raised in church and in a Christian home. So was I. So when did you become a Christian?
I was raised like you, but it wasn't until I was about 15 that I truly believed in Jesus Christ and thus became a Christian. At that point, Jesus changed my life. Before that, I was mean, angry, self centered, bitter and not very good to other people, including my parents. I didn't mind being like that and I did not feel guilty about it. But when I believed in Jesus, He changed me and made me a new person. Though I am far from perfect now, everyone who new me before then noticed the difference, that I had become a new person. I wasn't even trying to change and I was not expecting to change, but Jesus changed me.
Not only that, but since then, I have experienced many hardships in my life. I have lost loved ones who were very good people. I have had loved ones close to me get very sick. I have experienced financial uncertainty. I have been laughed at, ridiculed and insulted for my faith in Jesus. But through it all, Jesus was there, giving me peace, joy, hope and strength. Jesus has always been there helping me grow spiritually.
I have also seen Jesus in the life of other Christians around me. People are quick to point out the bad Christians, or the so called "Christians" who are not Christians at all, or they are quick to point out the faults of good Christians. But I am thankful that I have experienced the life of very good Christians in my life, including my parents. They all have been role models and good examples to me.
I suggest you pray and ask God to strengthen your faith. After that, I suggest that you continue to study the Bible, it's origins and history. Read about the dead sea scrolls, Bible archeology, fulfilled Bible prophecy, the historicity of Jesus, the accuracy of the Gospels, the history of Israel, America's founding fathers, etc. It all comes down to faith, but the more you study, the more you'll find out that history, archeology and science all support our faith in the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died for our sins.
homer77,
I have been praying for you since I first read your post. There are other Christians on this board who are praying for you too. God bless you and may Jesus Christ strengthen your faith!
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Hi homer77! It's okay to question your faith. I see that you were raised in church and in a Christian home. So was I. So when did you become a Christian?
I was raised like you, but it wasn't until I was about 15 that I truly believed in Jesus Christ and thus became a Christian. At that point, Jesus changed my life. Before that, I was mean, angry, self centered, bitter and not very good to other people, including my parents. I didn't mind being like that and I did not feel guilty about it. But when I believed in Jesus, He changed me and made me a new person. Though I am far from perfect now, everyone who new me before then noticed the difference, that I had become a new person. I wasn't even trying to change and I was not expecting to change, but Jesus changed me.
Not only that, but since then, I have experienced many hardships in my life. I have lost loved ones who were very good people. I have had loved ones close to me get very sick. I have experienced financial uncertainty. I have been laughed at, ridiculed and insulted for my faith in Jesus. But through it all, Jesus was there, giving me peace, joy, hope and strength. Jesus has always been there helping me grow spiritually.
I have also seen Jesus in the life of other Christians around me. People are quick to point out the bad Christians, or the so called "Christians" who are not Christians at all, or they are quick to point out the faults of good Christians. But I am thankful that I have experienced the life of very good Christians in my life, including my parents. They all have been role models and good examples to me.
I suggest you pray and ask God to strengthen your faith. After that, I suggest that you continue to study the Bible, it's origins and history. Read about the dead sea scrolls, Bible archeology, fulfilled Bible prophecy, the historicity of Jesus, the accuracy of the Gospels, the history of Israel, America's founding fathers, etc. It all comes down to faith, but the more you study, the more you'll find out that history, archeology and science all support our faith in the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died for our sins.
homer77,
I have been praying for you since I first read your post. There are other Christians on this board who are praying for you too. God bless you and may Jesus Christ strengthen your faith!
loco did you watch the movie by any chance? or the first part at least?
i think they do a very good job of disproving jesus. what are your thoughts, id be interested to hear them.
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loco did you watch the movie by any chance? or the first part at least?
i think they do a very good job of disproving jesus. what are your thoughts, id be interested to hear them.
Loco prays for your soul... ::) ::) ::)
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loco did you watch the movie by any chance? or the first part at least?
i think they do a very good job of disproving jesus. what are your thoughts, id be interested to hear them.
I can't watch it right now, but I will later.
One thing that didn't necessarily make me question my faith, but did shock me, is when somebody told me that Jesus was a myth, that there was not a single mention of Jesus outside of the bible, none, zero. I had always been under the impression that even if some people did not believe in God or in Jesus, there was no question that Jesus was at least an important historical figure. I had assumed that other historical documents outside of the Bible had mentioned him, but I had never read one before.
So I decided to look into this and found that this person was wrong. He was just repeating something that somebody else had told him. The well respected historian Josephus mentions Jesus in his works. Josephus was a Jew, not a Christian, and he worked for the Roman empire. He did not believe in Jesus, yet he mentions Jesus. Josephus would not have mentioned Jesus unless Jesus was an important figure of that time. So Jesus is no myth and he is an important historical figure. I also was able to find other historical documents, outside of the Bible and written by non-Christians, that mention Jesus too.
The book of Daniel gives some numbers and dates that any Jew could have used to predict when the Messiah would walk the earth. That time happened to be around 30 AD. Who was around 30 AD claiming to be the Jewish Messiah? Jesus Christ. How do you think the wise men from the east knew about Jesus, the king of the Jews, and came looking for him to worship him and bring him gifts? I believe that they read the book of Daniel and figured it out. Daniel was a Jew, Exiled in Babylon at the time that he wrote this prophecy.
Josephus Jewish Antiquities (c.93 C.E.)
(later interpolations in brackets)
"Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man [if it be lawful to call him a man], for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. [He was the Messiah.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him [for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him]. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this date.1
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Pliny the Younger Letter to Trajan (c.111-117 C.E.)
"...they maintained that their fault or error amounted to nothing more than this: they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before sunrise and reciting an antiphonal hymn to Christ as God, and binding themselves with an oath not to commit any crime, but to abstain from all acts of theft, robbery and adultery, from breaches of faith, from repudiating a trust when called upon to honour it."2
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Tacitus Roman Annals (c.115-117 C.E.)
"They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. That checked the pernicious superstition for a short time, but it broke out afresh--not only in Judea, where the plague first arose, but in Rome itself, where all the horrible and shameful things in the world collect and find a home."3
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Sanhedrin 43a (200-500 C.E.)
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu4 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of Passover!"5
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Endnotes
1. Antiquities xviii. 33 (early second century) from F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974), 37.
2. Pliny, Epistles x.96, from Bruce, p.26.
3. Tacitus, Annals xv, 44, from Bruce, p. 22.
4. Talmudic designation of Jesus.
5. "Sanhedrin," vol 3 of Nezikin, Babylonian Talmud, edited by Isidore Epstein, reprint (London: Soncino, 1938), 281.
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Loco prays for your soul... ::) ::) ::)
DonkeyKong,
I pray for you too. May God bless and prosper you and your whole family and friends too!
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Hi homer77! It's okay to question your faith. I see that you were raised in church and in a Christian home. So was I. So when did you become a Christian?
I was raised like you, but it wasn't until I was about 15 that I truly believed in Jesus Christ and thus became a Christian. At that point, Jesus changed my life. Before that, I was mean, angry, self centered, bitter and not very good to other people, including my parents. I didn't mind being like that and I did not feel guilty about it. But when I believed in Jesus, He changed me and made me a new person. Though I am far from perfect now, everyone who new me before then noticed the difference, that I had become a new person. I wasn't even trying to change and I was not expecting to change, but Jesus changed me.
Not only that, but since then, I have experienced many hardships in my life. I have lost loved ones who were very good people. I have had loved ones close to me get very sick. I have experienced financial uncertainty. I have been laughed at, ridiculed and insulted for my faith in Jesus. But through it all, Jesus was there, giving me peace, joy, hope and strength. Jesus has always been there helping me grow spiritually.
I have also seen Jesus in the life of other Christians around me. People are quick to point out the bad Christians, or the so called "Christians" who are not Christians at all, or they are quick to point out the faults of good Christians. But I am thankful that I have experienced the life of very good Christians in my life, including my parents. They all have been role models and good examples to me.
I suggest you pray and ask God to strengthen your faith. After that, I suggest that you continue to study the Bible, it's origins and history. Read about the dead sea scrolls, Bible archeology, fulfilled Bible prophecy, the historicity of Jesus, the accuracy of the Gospels, the history of Israel, America's founding fathers, etc. It all comes down to faith, but the more you study, the more you'll find out that history, archeology and science all support our faith in the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died for our sins.
homer77,
I have been praying for you since I first read your post. There are other Christians on this board who are praying for you too. God bless you and may Jesus Christ strengthen your faith!
ok,
i immidiatly noticed that you said at 15yrs old you became christian. im not trying to be negative, but at 15 i was the same way. most kids are. its just the age. i was baptised in 4th grade, but didnt really make the adult decision until about 21. twice since then i have had my faith truely tested. im now 29. this time being the worst. i do believe in God. the philosopher st thomas aquinas solidified that with the "unmoved mover" who started the universe. i just took a step back and said who is right and who is wrong. most religions seem to have the same moral basics and ways to live. ALL writtings are by man. and why hasnt anything been added? why do great stories not exist today. just because this is what was introduced to me as a child - does it mean i blindly follow? i think this all started when my wife was telling me about her orthadox jew friend at nursing school. i looked up the basic principals of their faith and started wondering these things.
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Homer, go here:
www.infidels.org
Lots of good reading that will make you think.
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loco i dont buy your sources or historians, as the movie mentioned none of the known historians mentioned jesus. dont you think that if someone was making such a fuss claiming to be god, performing miracles that some of the world renowned historians of that time would have mentioned him :-\? i mean i never heard of your historian, and many of the writings about jesus were proven to be false forgeries.
christianity IS based on pagan myth, the dates, rebirth, cross,flood story, emaculate conception, three wise men, rebirth, and on and on are older stories. the story of jesus is NOTHING new, most of it is borrowed this is obvious.
also you think that a few sources that mention jesus are ample enough to justify the son of god? a man who CURED the sick, walked on water and came back to life? I dont think so, any rational person would view it as the opposite. the glaring lack or evidence points to his non-existence, unless thats what god is trying to do, make it look like there is no god for some reason ::)
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loco i dont buy your sources or historians, as the movie mentioned none of the known historians mentioned jesus. dont you think that if someone was making such a fuss claiming to be god, performing miracles that some of the world renowned historians of that time would have mentioned him :-\? i mean i never heard of your historian, and many of the writings about jesus were proven to be false forgeries.
They are not "my" sources or "my" historians. They are what they are, true historical sources and true historians. Just look them up. Josephus is the most well recognized and respected historian of that time.
Do you not buy this simply because the movie did not mention them? Come on, is this movie the final authority? That just tells me the movie is bias, but I will watch it.
And when were the writings about Jesus proven to be false forgeries? I challenge you to study the Gospel manuscripts. They are superior to other ancient manuscripts out there.
christianity IS based on pagan myth, the dates, rebirth, cross,flood story, emaculate conception, three wise men, rebirth, and on and on are older stories. the story of jesus is NOTHING new, most of it is borrowed this is obvious.
You must not confuse traditions with Christianity. The cross, virgin birth, the wise men, the resurrection are not based on pagan myth. If you really want me to believe that, at least provide some valid sources to back that up.
also you think that a few sources that mention jesus are ample enough to justify the son of god? a man who CURED the sick, walked on water and came back to life? I dont think so, any rational person would view it as the opposite. the glaring lack or evidence points to his non-existence, unless thats what god is trying to do, make it look like there is no god for some reason ::)
No, I thought we were discussing that a man named Jesus who was very influential around 30AD did exist, whether or not you believe in his divinity or whether or not you believe that he performed miracles. Jesus is a historical figure, not a myth. I just proved it by giving you non-Christian, extra biblical historical sources which mention Jesus.
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ok,
i immidiatly noticed that you said at 15yrs old you became christian. im not trying to be negative, but at 15 i was the same way. most kids are. its just the age. i was baptised in 4th grade, but didnt really make the adult decision until about 21. twice since then i have had my faith truely tested. im now 29. this time being the worst. i do believe in God. the philosopher st thomas aquinas solidified that with the "unmoved mover" who started the universe. i just took a step back and said who is right and who is wrong. most religions seem to have the same moral basics and ways to live. ALL writtings are by man. and why hasnt anything been added? why do great stories not exist today. just because this is what was introduced to me as a child - does it mean i blindly follow? i think this all started when my wife was telling me about her orthadox jew friend at nursing school. i looked up the basic principals of their faith and started wondering these things.
I hope that you are not saying that just because I first believed in Jesus at age 15 you immediately dismiss everything else I posted. I am 35 years old now and I have never in my life stopped going to church, praying or reading my Bible, all by my own choice. My faith now is stronger than ever. I would not change the last 20 years of my life with Jesus for anything. I recommend this life style to everyone. I have no regrets, except that I wish that I had believed in Jesus sooner. I like who I am now and how my life has turned out. And I owe it all to Jesus Christ.
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you monotheists are somehow sick.
can't you relax for a minute?
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you monotheists are somehow sick.
can't you relax for a minute?
What do you mean by sick? What makes you say that I need to relax? ;D
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What do you mean by sick? What makes you say that I need to relax? ;D
this thread is a meltdown.
You feel the need to desperatly convince others of your religion. Calm down, he will find his best way. ;)
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this thread is a meltdown.
You feel the need to desperatly convince others of your religion. Calm down, he will find his best way. ;)
Meltdown? Isn't that when somebody gets angry?
Not at all. My job is not to convince anybody. My job is only to go around the World Wide Web and make disciples. The rest is the job of the Holy Spirit. Besides, isn't this a religious topics discussion board? Homer77 and "usmokepole" are asking questions and I am answering. That's all. ;D
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Questioning my faith........thats something ive been doing for a while, Homer, im on the same exact page as you when you talk about "SPEAKING IN TONGUES", that just makes no sense to me either. But the one thing, that just caught my attention that you said was '' The teachings of the bible or any book of faith was written by man". MAN, YOU STOLE THAT SAME BELIEVE OUT OF MY HEAD. i absolutely agree with you on that. and just too let everyone know, I WAS RAISED CATHOLIC, I WENT TO A CATHOLIC GRADE SCHOOL FOR 9 YEARS, AND WENT TO CHURCH 2 TIMES A WEEK.
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It's perfectly natural to question your faith. It wouldn't be faith unless you had doubts.
Just don't allow yourself to fall prey to those who would use these doubts to control you to serve their religion.
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Questioning my faith........thats something ive been doing for a while, Homer, im on the same exact page as you when you talk about "SPEAKING IN TONGUES", that just makes no sense to me either. But the one thing, that just caught my attention that you said was '' The teachings of the bible or any book of faith was written by man". MAN, YOU STOLE THAT SAME BELIEVE OUT OF MY HEAD. i absolutely agree with you on that. and just too let everyone know, I WAS RAISED CATHOLIC, I WENT TO A CATHOLIC GRADE SCHOOL FOR 9 YEARS, AND WENT TO CHURCH 2 TIMES A WEEK.
good to know there are others like me out there. i think making this thread has just made me even more confused?! i really dont know what to think. i wanna talk with my pastor, but thats a bias view. God, i know your out there someowhere. just tell me how to live and whats the deal with the afterlife! and loco, im not attacking you or telling you you are wrong. i dont know who is right or wrong and i dont think anyone has the authority to say who is.
loco- i ahve wanted the power of god to lay me out on revival days and not once. i felt the pastor push to take me down, but no power of god.
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Theres one thing i wanna make clear though, about the same believe that HOMER77 and i have about the bible being written by man. But i do read some versuses such as psalms, and a few others for strength, and inspiration, I got LEVITICUS 17:21 tattoed on my back. Alot of other stuff in there makes no sense, and is just too control man. Dont get me wrong there needs to be law and order but somethings in there too me are dehumanizing. Especially when it comes to SEX, thats a big no no to me. Yes, GOD doesnt want us to think SEX is absolutely everything in life, and doesnt want us to get AIDS or STDS, but SEX is just a part of life. Besides the physical pleasure, SEX is also about feelings and emotions, and connecting with the other person, and basically too me the bible wants us too feel guilty and wrong about having SEX, and having feelings and emotions. Again, very dehumanizing
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i had a fairly long phone conversation with my wifes jewish friend last night. she shared her faith and their pov with me. it was refreshing to hear. she shared one point that was very nice. i said i could not stand how people push their religion and how they kill over it. if you are not one of us you need to die or change!!! the jews do not accept convert (orthadox). they dont push or force their religion because they are suppose to be a guide to the world who were chosen by God (in which i do believe). we we talked about the differnt way we were raised and differences in our faiths (or my new lack of). it was funny how i knew much about the new test and some of the old, but she was tearing me up on the old test. anyway i learned alot and i may be researching their faith more. i actually stayed up until 2am last night thinking. things like...if i deny religion (or jesus) how can i possibly celebrate christmas? could i really take such a great childhood event away from my son? actually it is a great time of year, but i guess its the feeling of family and fun?
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loco did you watch the movie by any chance? or the first part at least?
i think they do a very good job of disproving jesus. what are your thoughts, id be interested to hear them.
Man, that was a very long movie, but I did watch the whole thing, from the very beginning to the very end. Here are my thoughts.
This movie is bias and it has a political agenda. This movie is entertaining, but it's just a movie full of conspiracy theories, Jesus is a myth, Christianity was created to control people, 911 and Pearl Harbor were inside jobs, all Americans are slaves of the US Central bank, Bush signed an agreement with Canada and Mexico to unite North America and replace the dollar with a common currency and do away with the American Constitution, etc. None of it can be taken seriously.
As for Jesus being a myth based on ancient pagan gods, the Gospels do not say that Jesus was born on December 25.
The Gospels do not say that Jesus was visited by 3 kings, but by some wise men.
It is a fact that Romans did crucify criminals.
Israel did have 12 tribes, thus Jesus chose 12 disciples, 1 for each tribe.
Jesus' virgin birth, death and resurrection were mentioned in the Hebrew bible, the Old Testament, many centuries before they were mentioned in the Gospels. So Christianity did not need to borrow anything from any pagan religion.
It is a historical fact that Christianity spread like fire in the first century, and that both Jews and the Roman empire where trying to quench this fire. Yet, there is not a single historical record from either Romans or Jews that tries to disprove Christianity by tying it to ancient, pagan religions or pagan gods. The Romans especially were very familiar with these pagan gods and religions mentioned in the movie.
There are well known, well respected, non-Christian historians of the 1st century who do mention Jesus in their writings, outside of the Bible. And this was several centuries before the birth of the Roman Catholic Church. I have already mentioned them in this thread.
The movie is very bias. It starts off by saying that all religions are bad and invented to control people, then it proceeds to spend a long time trying to disprove Christianity and some time trying to disprove Judaism. Now, I'm okay with that, but I was waiting for them to move on to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. But they never did. Their sole purpose was to attack Judeo-Christian beliefs, because this movie has a political agenda.
usmokepole,
Now, here is something very interesting. The first part of the movie is spent trying to discredit Judeo-Christian beliefs, but at the very end, they say that it is a fact that the world is moving as we speak toward a one world government with a one world leader. They say that this one world government is going to inject us all with a microchip ID. They say that if a person does not want to submit to this one world government, this one world leader will simply turn off that person's microchip ID.
Did you know that the Bible and Christianity predict that in the end times there will be a one world government and a one world leader? That this world leader, the anti-Christ, will make everybody submit to him by giving them a mark.
Revelation 13:16-18
"16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."
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you guys need to fuck more. ;)
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loco- i agree with the agenda in the movie, but they do bring up some insightful things. i am going to continue to research all the ideas in the movie on my own. i am perticularly interested in the astrology related to different historical saviors and prophets. i do find it hard to believe the inside job thing. what happened to the family members who died that day on the flights? were they made up? i do think that the powers that be have an agenda to better themselves. imperialism- the dark side!!!!
anyway that was not the purpose of this thread. its faith.
so i started from the beginning of the bible. i already have questions. in ch 1 god created everything and on the 6th he made man. later in ch2 it goes into adam. now was man made 1st and then adam made to tend the garden? cause that would make sense. later after cain killed able cain said he could not wonder the earth because people would kill or harm him. now if adam was first what people would harm him?!!!!!! any bible scholars out there?
and i do fu@# enough!!!! my wife is very giving :)
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hi,
i have been dealing with this issue for some time now. i was raised "born again" christian since the age of 2. I have learned much throught the years. I have watched how the church is run, how people act, the teachings of the bible, and the whole social interaction/ production of the church. i enjoy learning and sharing all points of view. i see that there are many faiths of the world and everyone thinks they are right mostly because they were raised that way. there are converts who are trying to find their way or faith too. who's to say who is right and who is wrong?! why do people die everyday in the name of faith?! i do believe that there is an allmighty power or god who created everything- the unmoved mover (st thomas aquinas). maybe god is just an engraved part of my personality or subconsious that my parents put there. they would freakin flip if they heard this. then again i have been sticking them with tough faith questions for years. the toughest one was speaking in tongues. evry week i got to church and immidiatly there are people speaking in tongues. in the bible it says thjat the holy spirit consumed them and they were actually speaking real languages. what i hear each week is mubbling and tongue twisting blaber. its non sense. is the holy spirit really making them do that as soon as they walk into service. my parents responce was "its just our prayer language". and what exact language is that?! ohh shatabababa ba da - umcomadadadada. sorry- i have watched and learned how people fall into the act and group think.
the teachings of the vivle or any book of faith was written by man. how do we really know they were inspired by god? the creator of the mormon faith was inspired. have you ever heard that story?!
the bible- old testament- i truely feel they are tall tales. they were not written until hundreds to thousands of years later. over they years stories get greater and greater. and who knows what the catholic church did to the bible during the middle ages and the reformation. they were to power in europe and people in power would do any thing to make things go their way.
wow, i am ranting now. any one else share my frustration?
dont go attacking me now. its just whats been battling in my head.
Homer77 do not feel alone with this issue, every Christian I know has battled with this question at some point and time in there walk. I will take some time to read through the thread (in particular your post) and try to add something that may be of some encouragement to you. Remember brother, you are not alone in this! Brb
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Theres one thing i wanna make clear though, about the same believe that HOMER77 and i have about the bible being written by man. But i do read some versuses such as psalms, and a few others for strength, and inspiration, I got LEVITICUS 17:21 tattoed on my back. Alot of other stuff in there makes no sense, and is just too control man. Dont get me wrong there needs to be law and order but somethings in there too me are dehumanizing. Especially when it comes to SEX, thats a big no no to me. Yes, GOD doesnt want us to think SEX is absolutely everything in life, and doesnt want us to get AIDS or STDS, but SEX is just a part of life. Besides the physical pleasure, SEX is also about feelings and emotions, and connecting with the other person, and basically too me the bible wants us too feel guilty and wrong about having SEX, and having feelings and emotions. Again, very dehumanizing
Sex, per God's design, was to be manifested in marriage. (i.e. For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE and the two shall be come one flesh).
That's in Genesis.
Check out 1 Cor. 7:3-5
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
All the things you mentioned (feelings, emotions, connecting with the other) and one you forgot (having children) are all encompassed into the institituion of marriage.
It sounds as if you're upset, because the Bible isn't giving you license to fornicate or commit adultery. Anything that the Bible says negatively about sex involves sex OUTSIDE of marriage.
BTW - How you get "Leviticus 17:21"? That chapter only has 16 verses.
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Man, that was a very long movie, but I did watch the whole thing, from the very beginning to the very end. Here are my thoughts.
This movie is bias and it has a political agenda. This movie is entertaining, but it's just a movie full of conspiracy theories, Jesus is a myth, Christianity was created to control people, 911 and Pearl Harbor were inside jobs, all Americans are slaves of the US Central bank, Bush signed an agreement with Canada and Mexico to unite North America and replace the dollar with a common currency and do away with the American Constitution, etc. None of it can be taken seriously.
As for Jesus being a myth based on ancient pagan gods, the Gospels do not say that Jesus was born on December 25.
The Gospels do not say that Jesus was visited by 3 kings, but by some wise men.
It is a fact that Romans did crucify criminals.
Israel did have 12 tribes, thus Jesus chose 12 disciples, 1 for each tribe.
Jesus' virgin birth, death and resurrection were mentioned in the Hebrew bible, the Old Testament, many centuries before they were mentioned in the Gospels. So Christianity did not need to borrow anything from any pagan religion.
It is a historical fact that Christianity spread like fire in the first century, and that both Jews and the Roman empire where trying to quench this fire. Yet, there is not a single historical record from either Romans or Jews that tries to disprove Christianity by tying it to ancient, pagan religions or pagan gods. The Romans especially were very familiar with these pagan gods and religions mentioned in the movie.
The core of Christianity is the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one Christian scholar said, all the enemies of early Christianity had to do to quench the fire, as you put it, was to produce Jesus' dead body. They knew who the prime suspects were: The disciples. Remember that they ran like scalded dogs and didn't believe that Jesus had risen. The women went to the tomb, with the purpose of completing the burial process.
One show I recommend seeing is Who is This Jesus? Is He Risen?. It usually airs around Easter time, on any network that broadcasts The Coral Ridge Hour, with D. James Kennedy.
There are well known, well respected, non-Christian historians of the 1st century who do mention Jesus in their writings, outside of the Bible. And this was several centuries before the birth of the Roman Catholic Church. I have already mentioned them in this thread.
The movie is very bias. It starts off by saying that all religions are bad and invented to control people, then it proceeds to spend a long time trying to disprove Christianity and some time trying to disprove Judaism. Now, I'm okay with that, but I was waiting for them to move on to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. But they never did. Their sole purpose was to attack Judeo-Christian beliefs, because this movie has a political agenda.
usmokepole,
Now, here is something very interesting. The first part of the movie is spent trying to discredit Judeo-Christian beliefs, but at the very end, they say that it is a fact that the world is moving as we speak toward a one world government with a one world leader. They say that this one world government is going to inject us all with a microchip ID. They say that if a person does not want to submit to this one world government, this one world leader will simply turn off that person's microchip ID.
Did you know that the Bible and Christianity predict that in the end times there will be a one world government and a one world leader? That this world leader, the anti-Christ, will make everybody submit to him by giving them a mark.
Revelation 13:16-18
"16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."
The irony of all this is that the some of the godless folks, who cry about religion trying to control people are attempting to do the very same thing themselves. They want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.
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The irony of all this is that the some of the godless folks, who cry about religion trying to control people are attempting to do the very same thing themselves. They want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.
I disagree.
Are they erecting churches?
Are they telling you, you will go to hell if you do _____________?
Are they telling you, you will go to hell of you don't do ____________?
Are they collecting donations?
Are they soliciting followers door to door?
Are they telling you will go to hell if you follow a certain religion?
NO, all see is these people calling BS where it's warranted: Organized Religion
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Nothing wrong with organized religion. It's actually part of the backbone of our society.
I attended a troop homecoming last week and one of the Army chaplains gave an invocation. We have hundreds of chaplains serving on active duty. As I was driving off the base I passed a very large church and recalled that most, if not all, military bases have at least one and probably multiple churches. Big part of our community.
It's men who fail, not organized religion.
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Nothing wrong with organized religion. It's actually part of the backbone of our society.
I attended a troop homecoming last week and one of the Army chaplains gave an invocation. We have hundreds of chaplains serving on active duty. As I was driving off the base I passed a very large church and recalled that most, if not all, military bases have at least one and probably multiple churches. Big part of our community.
It's men who fail, not organized religion.
unfortunately, organized religion with all the good it does do, doesn't exists without man.
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unfortunately, organized religion with all the good it does do, doesn't exists without man.
Neither does our system of government, our legal system, etc. We have a terrific democracy, but men screw it up. That doesn't make democracy bad. Same is true of organized religion.
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Neither does our system of government, our legal system, etc. We have a terrific democracy, but men screw it up. That doesn't make democracy bad. Same is true of organized religion.
ahhh yes, if only the world was perfect. :)
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ahhh yes, if only the world was perfect. :)
But it isn't, which is why we shouldn't put our faith in men, including "men of God." :)
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But it isn't, which is why we shouldn't put our faith in men, including "men of God." :)
Yes, i agree with that.
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religion seems to be the backbone of most societies around the world. but they all differ. still i say - who is right and who is wrong? i keep digging into this topic and what i mostly find is one sect or religion trying to disprove the other. the basics are that historical data is not 100% sound.
i believe in G-d. i had a very long dispute about it in a college philosophy class. the philisophical writtings both for and against a G-d were both very deep and well thought, but reading about st. thomas aquinas and his "unmoved mover" made things clear to me.
so, how do we pray or follow this G-d?
i have also been looking at the athiest views. they try to disprove everything with science. they make valid points, but remember we cant comprehend everything. we exist in time and space. There could be so much more to existance than that. i hae trouble understanding that the universe never ends???? G-d is infinant and has no relation to time. we are stuck in our little minds way of experiencing life.
anyway, the quest for truth continues.....
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homer77, have you tried getting on your knees and sincerely praying to God that you want to feel the presence of HIs Holy Spirit? Do you usually feel the Holy Spirit when you pray? If not, have you ever?
Some things you have addressed perplex me just as they perplex you, such as the speaking in tongues or "prayer language." I may start a different thread about those. There are some who say that speaking in tongues no longer occurs (was just at Pentecost) especially if there is no interpreter. But I have a good friend whose husband says he has a "prayer language" and I have no reason to doubt him. It's interesting. We shouldn't "put God in a box" but I guess I just need to learn more about it.
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To me all religions have the basic tenents, and if you step back and look you will see more of the same and less of the different.
AS, when you say "all religions" do you mean different religions or different Christianity-based Denominations?
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I disagree.
Are they erecting churches?
Are they telling you, you will go to hell if you do _____________?
Are they telling you, you will go to hell of you don't do ____________?
Are they collecting donations?
Are they soliciting followers door to door?
Are they telling you will go to hell if you follow a certain religion?
NO, all see is these people calling BS where it's warranted: Organized Religion
Since when is engaging in those specific acts required to "control people"?
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hi,
i have been dealing with this issue for some time now. i was raised "born again" christian since the age of 2. I have learned much throught the years. I have watched how the church is run, how people act, the teachings of the bible, and the whole social interaction/ production of the church. i enjoy learning and sharing all points of view. i see that there are many faiths of the world and everyone thinks they are right mostly because they were raised that way. there are converts who are trying to find their way or faith too. who's to say who is right and who is wrong?! why do people die everyday in the name of faith?! i do believe that there is an allmighty power or god who created everything- the unmoved mover (st thomas aquinas). maybe god is just an engraved part of my personality or subconsious that my parents put there. they would freakin flip if they heard this. then again i have been sticking them with tough faith questions for years. the toughest one was speaking in tongues. evry week i got to church and immidiatly there are people speaking in tongues. in the bible it says thjat the holy spirit consumed them and they were actually speaking real languages. what i hear each week is mubbling and tongue twisting blaber. its non sense. is the holy spirit really making them do that as soon as they walk into service. my parents responce was "its just our prayer language". and what exact language is that?! ohh shatabababa ba da - umcomadadadada. sorry- i have watched and learned how people fall into the act and group think.
the teachings of the vivle or any book of faith was written by man. how do we really know they were inspired by god? the creator of the mormon faith was inspired. have you ever heard that story?!
the bible- old testament- i truely feel they are tall tales. they were not written until hundreds to thousands of years later. over they years stories get greater and greater. and who knows what the catholic church did to the bible during the middle ages and the reformation. they were to power in europe and people in power would do any thing to make things go their way.
wow, i am ranting now. any one else share my frustration?
dont go attacking me now. its just whats been battling in my head.
Check this out: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1159
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Since when is engaging in those specific acts required to "control people"?
By the very assertion:
If you do or don't do this you will get this.
Religion promotes this, establishes institutions, buildings etc... all centered around attracting followers to be saved or what have you.
Religions use the fear of total death and the promise of an afterlife to motivate you to "do" or "don't" do certain things. That is control and and a form of manipulation.
Atheists do nothing of the sort. They don;t try and convert you to atheism they merely tell you what they think. You don;t see atheists preaching, converting, promising etc...
that's the difference, that's why I disagree with your post and believe it's way off base.
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Atheists do nothing of the sort. They don;t try and convert you to atheism they merely tell you what they think. You don;t see atheists preaching, converting, promising etc...
I've had a very intelligent atheist try to "convert" me to atheism. She "preached" at me about it but you're right, she had no promises to offer.
She eventually became a believer :)
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I've had a very intelligent atheist try to "convert" me to atheism. She "preached" at me about it but you're right, she had no promises to offer.
She eventually became a believer :)
Did she invite you to her atheist church? ;)
I believe an atheist is potentially a strong believer in God. And i do agree with the assertion that a person's intelligence can hinder them from discovering God or god finding them.
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homer77, have you tried getting on your knees and sincerely praying to God that you want to feel the presence of HIs Holy Spirit? Do you usually feel the Holy Spirit when you pray? If not, have you ever?
especially if there is no interpreter. But I have a good friend whose husband says he has a "prayer language" and I have no reason to doubt him. It's interesting. We shouldn't "put God in a box" but I guess I just need to learn more about it.
yes i have. i have always felt like i was doing something wrong. as i said i was raised in a christian house. church 3 times a week! never felt the holy spirit. i have felt bthe A/C turn on during convienient times during service. and the whole prayer language thing is crap. doubt it! i have learned more than most people learn about christianity. not only have i learned the doctrine, but the stupid social aspects as well.
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Check this out: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1159
that was good. very similar to the beliefs of the jews and noahides.
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that was good. very similar to the beliefs of the jews and noahides.
I can also see a comparison with Buddhism (Pearson seems to have had a transcendental breakthrough) with Jesus in the role of the Bodhisattva
Whatever ones beliefs it's definitely an interesting story and worth the hour to listen
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By the very assertion:
If you do or don't do this you will get this.
Religion promotes this, establishes institutions, buildings etc... all centered around attracting followers to be saved or what have you.
Religions use the fear of total death and the promise of an afterlife to motivate you to "do" or "don't" do certain things. That is control and and a form of manipulation.
Atheists do nothing of the sort. They don;t try and convert you to atheism they merely tell you what they think. You don;t see atheists preaching, converting, promising etc...
that's the difference, that's why I disagree with your post and believe it's way off base.
I do recall atheist students in college distributing literature just like Christians distribute Bibles. I also recall these atheists having their own meetings and inviting people to their meetings, just like Christians invite others to church.
OzmO,
What about the Soviet Union, Cuba and China? At one time, they banned religion and they controlled people. They said, if you believe in God, you go to prison and could be executed(hell?). They said, if you do not believe in God, then you keep your "freedom" (heaven?). Doesn't communism and socialism preach that "All" must agree and believe the same? So these atheist leaders force people to believe as they do.
By the way, people who believe in God are harder to control. That is why the first thing many dictators do is to ban religion. They fear people who believe in God because they know that true believers are willing to die for their beliefs and will not give up their beliefs even when imprisoned and tortured.
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I do recall atheist students in college distributing literature just like Christians distribute Bibles. I also recall these atheists having their own meetings and inviting people to their meetings, just like Christians invite others to church.
On the scale the rest of humanity has over the last 2000 years? Com on loco, that's comparing a 1 foot mound to mount Everest.
OzmO,
What about the Soviet Union, Cuba and China? At one time, they banned religion and they controlled people. They said, if you believe in God, you go to prison and could be executed(hell?). They said, if you do not believe in God, then you keep your "freedom" (heaven?). Doesn't communism and socialism preach that "All" must agree and believe the same? So these atheist leaders force people to believe as they do.
They forbid organized religion. No one can regulate what a person believes in. But they can regulate organized public versions of it. I don't agree with that of course. And don't read too much into what execution and freedom are. they are not heaven and hell.
By the way, people who believe in God are harder to control. That is why the first thing many dictators do is to ban religion. They fear people who believe in God because they know that true believers are willing to die for their beliefs and will not give up their beliefs even when imprisoned and tortured.
Absolutely wrong. Religious people are only hard to control when you challenge their faith. But, with-in their faith they are all too easy to control. Any dictator who has taken power that has survived has realized this. In fact religious people can be manipulated to justify or turn a blind eye to genocide.
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On the scale the rest of humanity has over the last 2000 years? Com on loco, that's comparing a 1 foot mound to mount Everest.
They forbid organized religion. No one can regulate what a person believes in. But they can regulate organized public versions of it. I don't agree with that of course. And don't read too much into what execution and freedom are. they are not heaven and hell.
Absolutely wrong. Religious people are only hard to control when you challenge their faith. But, with-in their faith they are all too easy to control. Any dictator who has taken power that has survived has realized this. In fact religious people can be manipulated to justify or turn a blind eye to genocide.
It doesn't matter. The point is that you made a general statement that Atheists do not attempt to control other people just as they say Christians do. You state that they do not want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life. But the truth is that many Atheists do these, but are quick to point fingers and accuse Christians of doing the same.
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It doesn't matter. The point is that you made a general statement that Atheists do not attempt to control other people just as they say Christians do. You state that they do not want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life. But the truth is that many Atheists do these, but are quick to point fingers and accuse Christians of doing the same.
Not true. You can make a point by saying you saw a few people in college promoting their beliefs. But to compare it to the wholesale movement of billions of people, through out time, to promote their religion by building churches, infecting government and flat out killing people in their religion's name is stupid.
Fact is, what those college "kids" were doing is far from being indicative from religious zealots do and religion as a whole does:
"If you don't or do "this" you will go to heaven or hell."
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Not true. You can make a point by saying you saw a few people in college promoting their beliefs. But to compare it to the wholesale movement of billions of people, through out time, to promote their religion by building churches, infecting government and flat out killing people in their religion's name to stupid.
Fact is, what those college "kids" were doing is far from being indicative from religious zealots do and religion as a whole does:
"If you don't or do "this" you will go to heaven or hell."
OzmO,
Many Atheists around the world are zealots. They spend much time, energy and money spreading Atheism. Just look at the video that was posted on this thread. Think of the time, energy and money that went into that film. Google Atheist organizations, institutions, books, etc. I personally know someone who went to a Christian seminary and this person had a classmate who was an Atheist. This Atheist's sole purpose in life was to learn as much as possible about Christianity, The Bible, History, etc. to disprove Christianity. Why? Doesn't this Atheist have better things to do with his life?
These Atheists want everyone to believe as they do. Why are they not happy with simply not believing in God? Why do they want others not to believe in God? If they are happy not believing in God, and others are happy believing in God, why do they insist on attempting to make other stop believing in God?
True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls. What is the Atheist's excuse?
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I can also see a comparison with Buddhism (Pearson seems to have had a transcendental breakthrough) with Jesus in the role of the Bodhisattva
Whatever ones beliefs it's definitely an interesting story and worth the hour to listen
Yes, seeing Jesus as a bodhisattva is often stated in comparing buddhism with christianity.
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OzmO,
Many Atheists around the world are zealots. They spend much time, energy and money spreading Atheism. Just look at the video that was posted on this thread. Think of the time, energy and money that went into that film. Google Atheist organizations, institutions, books, etc. I personally know someone who went to a Christian seminary and this person had a classmate who was an Atheist. This Atheist's sole purpose in life was to learn as much as possible about Christianity, The Bible, History, etc. to disprove Christianity. Why? Doesn't this Atheist have better things to do with his life?
These Atheists want everyone to believe as they do. Why are they not happy with simply not believing in God? Why do they want others not to believe in God? If they are happy not believing in God, and others are happy believing in God, why do they insist on attempting to make other stop believing in God?
True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls. What is the Atheist's excuse?
Again, you seem to be having a problem differentiating proportions and scale and using it to come to an incorrect conclusion.
True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls. What is the Atheist's excuse?
You are liking the Christians responsibility to spread Christianity as an excuse?
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Again, you seem to be having a problem differentiating proportions and scale and using it to come to an incorrect conclusion.
You lost me, OzmO. I didn't know we were talking about proportions. I didn't know the statement the other guy made that you disagreed with had anything to do with proportions. And did you even google what I suggested? Are you talking about proportions in your neighborhood, in the US, or in the entire world?
You are liking the Christians responsibility to spread Christianity as an excuse?
Sorry, I do not understand your question!
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You lost me, OzmO. I didn't know we were talking about proportions. I didn't know the statement the other guy made that you disagreed with had anything to do with proportions. And did you even google what I suggested? Are you talking about proportions in your neighborhood, in the US, or in the entire world?
This is what was originally said:
The irony of all this is that the some of the godless folks, who cry about religion trying to control people are attempting to do the very same thing themselves. They want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.
Religion tries and tell what's right and wrong and tells you how to live your life. Atheists tells there is no god. Religion has dogma. They erect churches, get involved in government etc... Atheists don't on the scale and magnitude organized religion does. Geez, you don;t see atheists becoming suicide bombers ::). How many wars were faught over religious beliefs loco? I'm sure nearly all of them used relgion in some sort of way to "manipulate" people to commit acts of extreme violence INCLUDING Christianity.
to argue that atheists do some of the same things organized religion is stupid becuase anything they do be it on a college campus is tiny compared to what organized religion has done to try and influence the world.
True Christians believe it is their responsibility to spread Christianity in order to save souls. What is the Atheist's excuse?
I didn't know what did was considered an excuse.
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This is what was originally said:
Religion tries and tell what's right and wrong and tells you how to live your life. Atheists tells there is no god. Religion has dogma. They erect churches, get involved in government etc... Atheists don't on the scale and magnitude organized religion does. Geez, you don;t see atheists becoming suicide bombers ::). How many wars were faught over religious beliefs loco? I'm sure nearly all of them used relgion in some sort of way to "manipulate" people to commit acts of extreme violence INCLUDING Christianity.
to argue that atheists do some of the same things organized religion is stupid becuase anything they do be it on a college campus is tiny compared to what organized religion has done to try and influence the world.
I didn't know what did was considered an excuse.
Nobody is denying that Christianity and other religions can, have, and unfortunately will be used by evil people to control good, gullible people who don't read and study the word of God.
Many things, other than religion have been used to control people throughout history, secular media, clubs, gangs, government, fear of "the enemy", fear of a bad economy, etc.
But It doesn't matter. Still, those same atheists that spend time, money and energy trying to disprove Christianity are trying to get people to believe as they do. They are trying to control people. And stop calling those Atheist college students "college kids". The leaders and many of the member were not kids. These were men in their late 20s, 30s and 40s, graduate students. And I am not just talking about them, I am talking about all of the websites, books, audio and video material that is out there to get people to stop believing in God.
Many godless people out there who have an agenda and want to control people, believe that they first need to get people to stop believing in God before they can be controlled.
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Nobody is denying that Christianity and other religions can, have, and unfortunately will be used by evil people to control good, gullible people who don't read and study the word of God.
Many things, other than religion have been used to control people throughout history, secular media, clubs, gangs, government, fear of "the enemy", fear of a bad economy, etc.
But It doesn't matter. Still, those same atheists that spend time, money and energy trying to disprove Christianity are trying to get people to believe as they do. They are trying to control people. And stop calling those Atheist college students "college kids". The leaders and many of the member were not kids. These were men in their late 20s, 30s and 40s, graduate students. And I am not just talking about them, I am talking about all of the websites, books, audio and video material that is out there to get people to stop believing in God.
Many godless people out there who have an agenda and want to control people, believe that they first need to get people to stop believing in God before they can be controlled.
Show me where atheists spend time and money near the scale religion has.
Show me where an atheists movement or dogma was used to start a war.
Show me where an atheists tell you will burn in hell if you don't do this or do that.
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This thread needs Claudia Schiffer.
(http://web.ard.de/galerie/bilderpool/boulevard/2006/schiffer_charity/schiffer_charity.jpg)
(http://www.media-consulta.com/fileadmin/content/MediaLibary/Bilder/070306_Schiffer_ITB.jpg)
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Show me where atheists spend time and money near the scale religion has.
Show me where an atheists movement or dogma was used to start a war.
Show me where an atheists tell you will burn in hell if you don't do this or do that.
Why and what for? I can't show you that. That is not what I'm saying. You don't need that to control people. This is what I'm saying:
those same atheists that spend time, money and energy trying to disprove Christianity are trying to get people to believe as they do. They are trying to control people.
Many godless people out there who have an agenda and want to control people, believe that they first need to get people to stop believing in God before they can be controlled.
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loco- i disagree
i think athiests need to share what they believe because it is rational and it urks them to see people blindly follow fairy tales. its like seeing an idiot in the gym doing 1/4 squats with x5 too much weight. you want to share what you know is right.
now, i still dont know what i believe, but im not athiest.
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loco- i disagree
i think athiests need to share what they believe because it is rational and it urks them to see people blindly follow fairy tales. its like seeing an idiot in the gym doing 1/4 squats with x5 too much weight. you want to share what you know is right.
now, i still dont know what i believe, but im not athiest.
homer77,
That is true and I agree with you, but my argument is that some atheists do want to and do control people, especially those who spend large amounts of money, time and energy trying to get people to stop believing in God. Religion is not the only thing that has been used to control people.
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homer77,
That is true and I agree with you, but my argument is that some atheists do want to and do control people, especially those who spend large amounts of money, time and energy trying to get people to stop believing in God. Religion is not the only thing that has been used to control people.
you might find this 3 part series from the BBC interesting:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13868.htm
right click video and choose "zoom" for full screen.
If "zoom" is not available then click options, go to advanced options and add full screen mode and then go back and try the zoom function again.
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Why and what for? I can't show you that. That is not what I'm saying. You don't need that to control people. This is what I'm saying:
That's not what you are saying.
when you tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell is "control" that's what religion's do.
When you tell a person there is no God and make your case you are not trying to control how they live.
That's pretty clear cut.
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That's not what you are saying.
when you tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell is "control" that's what religion's do.
When you tell a person there is no God and make your case you are not trying to control how they live.
That's pretty clear cut.
I'm glad you can tell me what I am and what I am not saying. ;D
And what are you saying? That not a single atheist is interested in controlling other people? That not a single atheist has tried to control other people?
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I'm glad you can tell me what I am and what I am not saying. ;D
And what are you saying? That not a single atheist is interested in controlling other people? That not a single atheist has tried to control other people?
com on loco, think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:
That not a single atheist has tried to control other people?
Do athiests in general tell you how to live? no. they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.
All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.
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com on loco, think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:
Do athiests in general tell you how to live? no. they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.
All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.
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when you tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell is "control" that's what religion's do.
I agree that some religions do "tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell" but Christianity is not one of them.
Christianity is about grace. The bible teaches there is no way we can live our lives to be good enough to "gain entrance to heaven" as you say. It says "We are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast." EPH 2:8,9
Does the bible tell us how we should live? Yes, in order to have a more fulfilling and more trouble-free life, but it does not say we have to live in a certain way to "gain entrance to heaven" because according to the bible that is impossible.
OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree. But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity). What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"
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com on loco, think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:
Do athiests in general tell you how to live? no. they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.
All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.
OzmO,
Who have persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed Christians in China, the former Soviet Union and Cuba? Atheists. What were these Christians guilty of? Believing in God.
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I agree that some religions do "tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell" but Christianity is not one of them.
Christianity is about grace. The bible teaches there is no way we can live our lives to be good enough to "gain entrance to heaven" as you say. It says "We are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast." EPH 2:8,9
Does the bible tell us how we should live? Yes, in order to have a more fulfilling and more trouble-free life, but it does not say we have to live in a certain way to "gain entrance to heaven" because according to the bible that is impossible.
OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree. But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity). What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"
Is not requiring one to believe in a Christian God telling someone how to live or rather more like an implicit threat?
The ONLY Choice - Believe in Christ/Christian God or Suffer eternal damnation
Actually, not only "believe" but agree that "you" are born into Sin and destined to eternal suffering unless you affiliate with a specific Christian denomination and get "saved"?
btw - not trying to put words in your mouth but just trying to understand and express what my perception of what you are saying
btw2 - I find the whole "born into sin" / "original sin" concept to be fascinating.
The "innocent" fetus become a sinner by virtue of it's birth into this world - and then your most important job on earth is to locate the one and only correct religion and get saved.
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com on loco, think about it for a minute without trying too hard to defend anything religious and at the very least argue the points or when convenient stop lumping weak arguments into generalities to strengthen an already weak premise with rhetoric like:
Do athiests in general tell you how to live? no. they tell why they don;t believe in the existence of God.
All of Religion has at it's forefront, intended to tell people how to live.
http://atheisme.free.fr/Atheism.htm
How to live without God, religion and beliefs
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OzmO,
Who have persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and killed Christians in China, the former Soviet Union and Cuba? Atheists. What were these Christians guilty of? Believing in God.
Communist countries cannot tolerate the citizens/captives believing in any power that's higher then "THE STATE"
It's really no more complicated than that
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Communist countries cannot tolerate the citizens/captives believing in any power that's higher then "THE STATE"
It's really no more complicated than that
Thus, they control people.
Right, intolerance, the very same thing that Christians are accused of by some.
What you say above, along with their persecutions, their tortures and their murders is the "reason", "rationality", "enligthment" that atheists speak of?
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Loco and Straw,
The difference between a communists state not acknowledging religious beliefs or persecuting people who practice religion, Atheism, and organized religion iare as follows:
- Organize religion holds eternity (afterlife) over your head as a way of controlling how you live.
- Atheism does not do that. all they say is that you don't have to do those things (dogma or rules on living) for the reasons religion tells you becuase there is no god.
- Communism is not atheism. let's NOT confuse the 2!!!!! They forbid organized religion because it will eventually threaten their form of government. You can be communist and believe what ever you like.
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Loco and Straw,
The difference between a communists state not acknowledging religious beliefs or persecuting people who practice religion, Atheism, and organized religion iare as follows:
- Organize religion holds eternity (afterlife) over your head as a way of controlling how you live.
- Atheism does not do that. all they say is that you don't have to do those things (dogma or rules on living) for the reasons religion tells you becuase there is no god.
- Communism is not atheism. let's NOT confuse the 2!!!!! They forbid organized religion because it will eventually threaten their form of government. You can be communist and believe what ever you like.
aren't we essentionally saying the same thing?
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aren't we essentionally saying the same thing?
Yep we are. :)
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I agree that some religions do "tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell" but Christianity is not one of them.
Christianity is about grace. The bible teaches there is no way we can live our lives to be good enough to "gain entrance to heaven" as you say. It says "We are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast." EPH 2:8,9
Does the bible tell us how we should live? Yes, in order to have a more fulfilling and more trouble-free life, but it does not say we have to live in a certain way to "gain entrance to heaven" because according to the bible that is impossible.
OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree. But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity). What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"
Do sins you commit prevent you from getting into heaven?
That is the root of the control mechanism religion offers.
Grace is identified in many Religions and starts with the desire to change one's life. But the facts are, as the Pastor who demonstrated for us so well, it's no different. People are weak and grace doesn't stop them from sinning. If he wasn't caught, he'd still doing all those things.
OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree. But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity). What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"
It's just that i don't think GOD's grace is exclusive to the Christian belief of it's occurrence. God's grace does work the way the Christians say it does, but it also works for all other religion's. It's more spiritual than anything, the desire to better your self to come to terms with your weaknesses and surrender to GOD's direction that channels from your heart. (loco, might say that a child molester feels in his heart that what he's doing is right, but that desire to have sex with a child is wrong and that person knows it.... as he'll likely use his culture to justify his actions)
I believe we will judge ourselves in death as we will face the truth of our lives without the masks of perceptions we chose to cover it with. For example: A person will feel the pain of the pain he/she has caused others in their life. And for some they will not be able to recover from that and it will keep them from Heaven and they may exist in their own personal hell.
When we harm or cause pain for selfish reasons it takes away from us spiritually i believe. At some point our souls will not be able to recover from it.
When it comes to actions that do not produce victims like consensual safe sex between adults i don;t believe that's a sin or something bad what so ever. But adultery is bad becuase you hurt partner in breaking the commitment you made to them. And that goes to with much of this little crap like taking a pencil from work. How about misleading thousands as to your salvation and honor as a pastor only to be exposed as having sex with a man and doing drugs? That causes much harm to people.
But like most of this i certainly don't have all the answers. this is just what i happen to believe. the best i can do, is live by the golden rule: Do onto others....
I do firmly know and believe the Bible is not the 100% word of God. I do firmly believe God guides our lives and removes fear if you let him.
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It's more spiritual than anything, the desire to better your self to come to terms with your weaknesses and surrender to GOD's direction that channels from your heart. (loco, might say that a child molester feels in his heart that what he's doing is right, but that desire to have sex with a child is wrong and that person knows it.... as he'll likely use his culture to justify his actions)
OzmO, I didn't say it. It's a historical fact. So much for "follow your own heart."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
Greek pederasty, as idealised by the Greeks from Archaic times onward, was a relationship and bond between an adolescent boy and an adult man outside of his immediate family, and was constructed initially as an aristocratic moral and educational institution. As such, it was seen by the Greeks as an essential element in their culture from the time of Homer onwards.
The erastes-eromenos relationship was fundamental to the Classical Greek social and educational system, had its own complex social-sexual etiquette and was an important social institution among the upper class.[15] Pederastic relationships were dyadic mentorships. These mentorships were sanctioned by the state, as evidenced by laws mandating and controlling such relationships.
Poets such as Theognis and Anacreon self-identify as pederasts, each thus presenting a persona embodying his own ideals for the tradition. In the case of Theognis, pederasty is political and pedagogical — the elite male's method of passing on his wisdom and loyalties to his beloved. Anacreon's values are erotic and Dionysiac, which is to say sensual and spiritual, and no less ideal than those of Theognis. Vase iconography of the period is consistent with this interpretation: the gifts offered, and the context of the palaestra speak of pedagogic values, while the repeated inscriptions of "KALOS" idealize the beauty and physical attraction of the erōmenos (the beloved boy).
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/pederasty.html
Pederasty (or Greek Paederasteia) is the erotic relationship between an adult male and a boy, generally one between the ages of twelve and seventeen, in which the older partner is attracted to the younger one who returns his affection.
Such relationships were widespread in ancient Greece, so much so that Plato called the relationship the feature that distinguished Hellenistic civilization from "barbarian" cultures.
William Percy, one of the more recent scholars on the topic, believes the custom was not institutionalized in Greece until the seventh century B. C. E.
Many scholars who acknowledge the existence of Greek pederasty are unwilling to look upon it as involving sexual activity. Some couples undoubtedly limited their physical contact to the gymnasia--wrestling, reclining together on couches, but not going beyond kissing and fondling. Some presumably ejaculated between the thighs or buttocks of the boys, yet others, perhaps most, penetrated their lover anally. Such activities appear on vase or other paintings.
Among the Sambia of Papua New Guinea, pederasty is a traditional practice. In this society, the ingestion of semen via fellatio is believed essential for a boy's proper masculine development. The boys are inseminated from about age eight until around age fifteen, then they become inseminators until they are married, at which time they cease regular same-sex sexual practices.
Although most pederastic relationships are consensual, and often involve mentoring and support for the youthful partner from the adult, there is nearly always a power imbalance that makes such relationships unequal. Many adults who had such relationships in their adolescence remember them fondly. Not all do.
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OzmO, I didn't say it. It's a historical fact. So much for "follow your own heart."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/pederasty.html
Hey loco, if you can't tell that there is something very wrong with having sex with children then you are a very out of touch lost soul. (of course not you loco, the people having sex with kids back then.)
Try and tell me how a 10 old boy enjoys getting sodomized. And then explain how the person sodomizing the 10 year old boy doesn't see he's performing an act the boy doesn't want.
p.s. something you need to remember loco when comparing the age of Greece (300 b.c. or so) with making points about how culture sets morals. the same people who thought sex with boys was OK also had no problem enslaving people, killing people for no reason, rape etc... It was a violent barbaric world, but becuase of the culture you were condition to be indifferent to that kind of suffering.....you probably had inklings early on that what you were doing, enslaving, boy sex etc... was wrong but you decided to go with the flow of the culture. there in lies time in that person's life where GOD was shut out.
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you are a very out of touch lost soul.
Thanks! God bless you too, OzmO! ;D
Hey loco, if you can't tell that there is something very wrong with having sex with children then you are a very out of touch lost soul. (of course not you loco, the people having sex with kids back then.)
OzmO,
Having sex with boys is wrong, very very wrong. God condemns it, in His Word, The Bible. It is harmful for the boy and for society in general. I personally have no desire to have sex with a child of any gender, and I have no desire to have sex with a male of any age. But the Bible condemns having sex with boys anyway and that settles it.
That is my point, OzmO. Read the websites. Their hearts told these men that it was okay back then. Their hearts tell these men that it is okay today. Still today, many men are told by their own hearts that there is nothing wrong with having sex with boys. These men believe that, just as you are born with a desire to have sex with adult women, they too are born with a desire to have sex with male adolescents. They believe that the practice should be institutionalized in the West. They believe it is a good way to educate young boys and to prepare them for adulthood. They view Judeo-Christian values and morals as the only thing standing in their way. That's what happens when societies set their own standards.
Outside the Greek Tradition
Pederastic relationships are known outside of the Greek tradition, and there are many societies in which the principal homosexual love object for males is the adolescent boy. Such relationships have been known in Korea, Japan, China, and many of the Islamic countries where contact between males and females was limited.
Among the Sambia of Papua New Guinea, pederasty is a traditional practice. In this society, the ingestion of semen via fellatio is believed essential for a boy's proper masculine development. The boys are inseminated from about age eight until around age fifteen, then they become inseminators until they are married, at which time they cease regular same-sex sexual practices.
Pederasty in the West
In the West, the relationship between the predominantly androphilic homophile movement and the pederasts has been contentious. Though some in the American gay community welcomed what they called boy lovers, most excluded them for political if no other reasons.
In Germany a separate pederastic-oriented movement, the Gemeinschaft der Eigenen (Community of the Exceptional), was organized at the turn into the twentieth century and created its own literature. One of the first writers of note was the anarchist John Henry Mackay who, writing under the pseudonym of Sagitta, composed a whole series of books in defense of boy love at the beginning of the twentieth century. Adolf Brand and Benedict Friedlaender and to a lesser extent Hans Blüher also wrote about pederastic love in German.
In England and America, in the period from the end of the Victorian era to the period between the World Wars, a pederastic-oriented poetic movement developed, now known as the Uranian Poets. These writers turned to the extensive pederastic literature of the ancient world for inspiration, but focused on the trials, tribulations, challenges, and rewards of boy love in a Christian society intolerant of their love.
In the United States, J.Z. Eglinton's Greek Love (1964) defended the rights of pederasts. Beginning in the 1950s local groups in the Netherlands and in Scandinavia, West Germany, Belgium, and Switzerland appeared. From 1987 to 1997 a scholarly journal, Paidika, edited by Joseph Geraci, was published in the Netherlands. The journal, after years of harassment, concluded its ten years of publication with a book-length final edition.
Try and tell me how a 10 old boy enjoys getting sodomized. And then explain how the person sodomizing the 10 year old boy doesn't see he's performing an act the boy doesn't want.
Why would I try to tell you that? I agree with you OzmO. Of course some boys didn't enjoy it, and neither would I have enjoyed it had it happened to me, but in most cases, it was consensual. Many boys did enjoy it, while others simply did not mind. Why? One reason is probably because society put it in their minds that it was okay. But that doesn't make it right. God sets the standard, not society.
We are not talking about rape here. These same men would agree that rape is wrong no matter the age or the gender. These men believe that consensual sex with boys is okay and should be institutionalized.
Although most pederastic relationships are consensual, and often involve mentoring and support for the youthful partner from the adult, there is nearly always a power imbalance that makes such relationships unequal. Many adults who had such relationships in their adolescence remember them fondly. Not all do.
So much for "It is immoral only if it produces a victim. Otherwise it is good." OzmO, you are a good guy and you mean well, but it is not as simple as you make it out to be. God sets the standards, not men, not society.
Many adults who had such relationships in their adolescence remember them fondly.
p.s. something you need to remember loco when comparing the age of Greece (300 b.c. or so) with making points about how culture sets morals. the same people who thought sex with boys was OK also had no problem enslaving people, killing people for no reason, rape etc... It was a violent barbaric world, but becuase of the culture you were condition to be indifferent to that kind of suffering.....you probably had inklings early on that what you were doing, enslaving, boy sex etc... was wrong but you decided to go with the flow of the culture. there in lies time in that person's life where GOD was shut out.
It still happens today, OzmO. Men still believe today, with all their heart, that it is moral, that they were born like that, that the practice should be institutionalised, and they believe that it is good for the boy and for society. The practice may be illegal in the west, but not everywhere in the world today. Yet another of many reasons why some atheists are set on pushing atheism. Once Judeo-Christian morality is out of the way, awful things like this, in their minds, can and will be allowed in modern society. That's what happens when society sets their own standards.
Pederastic relationships are known outside of the Greek tradition, and there are many societies in which the principal homosexual love object for males is the adolescent boy. Such relationships have been known in Korea, Japan, China, and many of the Islamic countries where contact between males and females was limited.
Among the Sambia of Papua New Guinea, pederasty is a traditional practice. In this society, the ingestion of semen via fellatio is believed essential for a boy's proper masculine development. The boys are inseminated from about age eight until around age fifteen, then they become inseminators until they are married, at which time they cease regular same-sex sexual practices.
Pederasty in the West
In the West, the relationship between the predominantly androphilic homophile movement and the pederasts has been contentious. Though some in the American gay community welcomed what they called boy lovers, most excluded them for political if no other reasons.
In Germany a separate pederastic-oriented movement, the Gemeinschaft der Eigenen (Community of the Exceptional), was organized at the turn into the twentieth century and created its own literature. One of the first writers of note was the anarchist John Henry Mackay who, writing under the pseudonym of Sagitta, composed a whole series of books in defense of boy love at the beginning of the twentieth century. Adolf Brand and Benedict Friedlaender and to a lesser extent Hans Blüher also wrote about pederastic love in German.
In England and America, in the period from the end of the Victorian era to the period between the World Wars, a pederastic-oriented poetic movement developed, now known as the Uranian Poets. These writers turned to the extensive pederastic literature of the ancient world for inspiration, but focused on the trials, tribulations, challenges, and rewards of boy love in a Christian society intolerant of their love.
In the United States, J.Z. Eglinton's Greek Love (1964) defended the rights of pederasts. Beginning in the 1950s local groups in the Netherlands and in Scandinavia, West Germany, Belgium, and Switzerland appeared. From 1987 to 1997 a scholarly journal, Paidika, edited by Joseph Geraci, was published in the Netherlands. The journal, after years of harassment, concluded its ten years of publication with a book-length final edition.
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Thanks! God bless you too, OzmO! ;D
OzmO,
Having sex with boys is wrong, very very wrong. God condemns it, in His Word, The Bible. It is harmful for the boy and for society in general. I personally have no desire to have sex with a child of any gender, and I have no desire to have sex with a male of any age. But the Bible condemns having sex with boys anyway and that settles it.
That is my point, OzmO. Read the websites. Their hearts told these men that it was okay back then. Their hearts tell these men that it is okay today. Still today, many men are told by their own hearts that there is nothing wrong with having sex with boys. These men believe that, just as you are born with a desire to have sex with adult women, they too are born with a desire to have sex with male adolescents. They believe that the practice should be institutionalized in the West. They believe it is a good way to educate young boys and to prepare them for adulthood. They view Judeo-Christian values and morals as the only thing standing in their way. That's what happens when societies set their own standards.
Why would I try to tell you that? I agree with you OzmO. Of course some boys didn't enjoy it, and neither would I have enjoyed it had it happened to me, but in most cases, it was consensual. Many boys did enjoy it, while others simply did not mind. Why? One reason is probably because society put it in their minds that it was okay. But that doesn't make it right. God sets the standard, not society.
We are not talking about rape here. These same men would agree that rape is wrong no matter the age or the gender. These men believe that consensual sex with boys is okay and should be institutionalized.
So much for "It is immoral only if it produces a victim. Otherwise it is good." OzmO, you are a good guy and you mean well, but it is not as simple as you make it out to be. God sets the standards, not men, not society.
It still happens today, OzmO. Men still believe today, with all their heart, that it is moral, that they were born like that, that the practice should be institutionalised, and they believe that it is good for the boy and for society. The practice may be illegal in the west, but not everywhere in the world today. Yet another of many reasons why some atheists are set on pushing atheism. Once Judeo-Christian morality is out of the way, awful things like this, in their minds, can and will be allowed in modern society. That's what happens when society sets their own standards.
You can dig as much internet references on man boy love in Greece as much as you want, but you can not tell me for one minute the boys desired it. The men who did it knew it was wrong but justified it with their culture. Anything written back then will most certainly justify the act.
I'm sorry you have so little faith in what GOD created (man). I do. He did not create a lost weak minded creature who couldn't tell right from wrong. Sorry you see his creation that way.
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You can dig as much internet references on man boy love in Greece as much as you want
I actually did not have to dig anything up. These are facts of History and Sociology. If you want to deny these facts simply because they do not fit your belief system, that is your choice.
You are welcome to "dig up" your own evidence to refute History and Sociology. Don't argue with me. Argue with them.
, but you can not tell me for one minute the boys desired it. The men who did it knew it was wrong but justified it with their culture. Anything written back then will most certainly justify the act.
No I cannot tell you and I have not told you anything. The evidence speaks for itself. This still happens today in some societies. It is not limited to the past and it is not limited to Greek society.
They follow their hearts, they believe that they were born like that. They believe that it is moral. Don't argue with me. Argue with them.
I'm sorry you have so little faith in what GOD created (man). I do. He did not create a lost weak minded creature who couldn't tell right from wrong. Sorry you see his creation that way.
I have faith in God. You have faith in men, and men have failed you miserably.
Our minds and spirit may be strong, but our flesh is weak.
We do have a conscience. We do know good from evil, for the most part. But we still need God's word for guidance. God still sets the standards, not us, not society.
God has taken humanity through stages, for a reason. From the time of Adam and Eve to the time of Moses, humans knew right from wrong, but had no written law from God. We had a conscience then, and we have conscience now. But we still failed miserably. Then God gave the written law to set the standard, but we still failed miserably.
Then came the knew covenant which was foretold in the Old Testament. God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins. Now, if you believe in Jesus Christ, you will receive the Holy Spirit. Then and only then will God be within you, and you will have forgiveness of sin and eternal life too.
"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Ephesians 1:13
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" Acts 1:8
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:26
"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
Romans 8:9
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They follow their hearts, they believe that they were born like that. They believe that it is moral. Don't argue with me. Argue with them.
this is where we are not communicating well. they do not follow their hearts, they are following their sexual desires.
I have faith in God. You have faith in men, and men have failed you miserably.
No i have faith in God's creation and our potential as a species for progressive development. You can see this development if you study history.
Our minds and spirit may be strong, but our flesh is weak.
I agree. And our challenge for growth spiritually is the controlling of our flesh. But the "Christian Version" is to deny our desires and makes us ashamed of it.
We do have a conscience. We do know good from evil, for the most part. But we still need God's word for guidance. God still sets the standards, not us, not society.
Like the standard of slavery loco?
God's word we need, yes. God's word is not the Bible. The Bible is man's interpretation of events out together by a group of men who were starting a new religion.
God has taken humanity through stages, for a reason. From the time of Adam and Eve to the time of Moses, humans knew right from wrong, but had no written law from God. We had a conscience then, and we have conscience now. But we still failed miserably. Then God gave the written law to set the standard, but we still failed miserably.
I'm not saying we don't need laws. I'm saying with in us lies the power to do the right thing and that we in the end don't need laws. the problem is there is lots of people who are not strong enough or not in touch with God enough ( in them selves or what have you), who have disconnected from their souls who do things to harm others.
You know the funny thing, loco, is that if we take our debate of the Bible being the word of God, out of our discussion we'd probably agree on most everything. :)
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You are a good man, OzmO! We'll continue this later. Have a great weekend! ;D