Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Livewire on July 12, 2007, 10:04:31 AM
-
http://www.getanabolics.com/2007/07/mike-mentzers-h.html
I dunno...
-
I would've burst out laughing trying to curl with Mentzer droning on like that.
-
Yeah, real genius there.
-
Yeah, real genius there.
To be fair Mentzer was clearly in his drug-induced downward spiral at that point.
-
i can't believe i tried that shit for a week
-
i can't believe i tried that shit for a week
Do you sound like Mike did there?
-
hahah when I tried that my arms went numb on that last few reps. Totally insane.
-
he reminds me of johnny knoxville when he dresses up like an old man in the jackass movies.
-
i can't believe i tried that shit for a week
everyone tries HIT for a week or two.
it looks so good on paper
-
everyone tries HIT for a week or two.
it looks so good on paper
Damn, I was on it for about 6 weeks. It's size for the sacrifice of strength.
-
hahah when I tried that my arms went numb on that last few reps. Totally insane.
He conveniently leaves out that he was deliriously happy while training like that, and made gains. ::)
-
He conveniently leaves out that he was deleriously happy while training like that, and made gains. ::)
Has ANYONE here made any gains on sHIT?
-
Has ANYONE here made any gains on sHIT?
Figgs just admitted he did, while attacking it like a rabid dog.
-
He conveniently leaves out that he was deleriously happy while training like that, and made gains. ::)
lol you're rediculous what I'm about to say I had to say at least a dozen times to you before.
While training HIT you can't tell that you'd be much weaker on all of your lifts when you go back to traditional training methods, and that's why I was happy with my gains at the time, which I did get. But when I stopped HIT and realized how much strength I lost (I'm still not back to my peak strength months later), I lost all enthusiasm for the training program. I value strength as much as size.
-
Figgs just admitted he did, while attacking it like a rabid dog.
lmao what's the matter with you? I had an HIT log here on getbig months ago and when I said it sucked for making me weak as shit you couldn't understand why a bodybuilder would care anything about strength as long as he's getting bigger. And you're still bitching about it to this day when I made it clear so many itmes before!!!
-
Who's the funny sounding guy with a clip board?
;D
-
lmao what's the matter with you? I had an HIT log here on getbig months ago and when I said it sucked for making me weak as shit you couldn't understand why a bodybuilder would care anything about strength as long as he's getting bigger. And you're still bitching about it to this day when I made it clear so many itmes before!!!
Dude, you're the one with a fragile ego who bailed on it while progressing because you thought underline thought you'd lost 1% strength. ::)
Try being more honest and balanced considered the frenzy you whipped yourself in to doing this, all of which is in past training board posts.
Truth is, you didn't actually lose any strength at all, you just thought you did.
-
everyone tries HIT for a week or two.
it looks so good on paper
Yeah, I hear Dorian tried it, maybe he was 'on paper' when he tried it hahahaha
-
To be fair Mentzer was clearly in his drug-induced downward spiral at that point.
What was he addicted to?
-
Dude, you're the one with a fragile ego who bailed on it while progressing because you thought underline thought you'd lost 1% strength. ::)
Try being more honest and balanced considered the frenzy you whipped yourself in to doing this, all of which is in past training board posts.
Truth is, you didn't actually lose any strength at all, you just thought you did.
haha 1% is beyond is exaggerating. My squat is STILL 30 pounds below my best, MONTHS later. I didn't "bail" on it, I just had enough. When you go through 6 weeks of that and don't miss training normally you come back to prove me a fool.
What are you suggesting, that I lied about my loss of strength? Why on earth would I do that? I made an HIT log to educate others and I gave my honest final opinion. It causes a significant drop in strength on all lifts but is good as a shock routine to spark muscle growth. Definetely not a good long-term type of routine. It's a thrill. If you love intensity give it a try for 1-4 weeks.
-
Has ANYONE here made any gains on sHIT?
I have made huge gains. and continue to get bigger and stronger.
it works! however, not many people can deal with the intensity and what it takes to do the workouts. it is very taxing and difficult if u do it properly (eg- actually put everything into those sets like its a matter of life and death)
-
I have made huge gains. and continue to get bigger and stronger.
it works! however, not many people can deal with the intensity and what it takes to do the workouts. it is very taxing and difficult if u do it properly (eg- actually put everything into those sets like its a matter of life and death)
HIT is as intense as weight training can possibly be in my opinion. Leg day was beyond cruel.
-
Viator seemed to be a strong fucker on HIT (Jones HIT). Sergio progressed in HIT strength as well.
-
once again the cerebrally challenged bag HIT because they dont have a clue.
comments like ''i tried it for a week'', and ''i got so weak on my normal exercises'' show just how you guys dont get it.
so rather than just bag it because you think you understand it but really dont have a clue, just admit that you dont understand it therefore cant apply it.
it follows the most basic of premises and fundamentals of human adaptation to demand. it cannot be wrong.
it applies the exact same principles you mongs already use but extends it to a level that optimises the response.
key factors are rest and time for the neuroloigcal pathways to learn- but not master- responses neurologically and muscularly.
it takes at least 6 months to properly evaluate the effects of HIT and is dependent on proper nutrition and rest as well as systematic application of the principle.
thos who do it right - and actually understand it, all gain weight and muscle as mike describes.
the fact is that it has to be better than other forms of training that work on the same principles but are less efficient.
the only other principle that has some merit is the workload approach where the training attempts to maximise the stress over a given time frame by moving through the maximum load points of an exercise frequently....this can be done with higher reps and short range.
the trick is to also learn the movements so your body recruits the most muscle to do the work- not master it- when you master a movement your body actually starts to recruit less muscle....
its analogous to learning any new skill. take juggling for example. when you start it seems impossible. the next time you try you geta bit better. each time you try, your brain is sorting out how much effort is required to do the task. eventually you recruit enough brain involvement to do the task. As you master it, your brain configures itself to do it better and better. Eventually you can do it easily. in fact its hard to un learn.
when you get to that point you should try something different (not necessarily harder)- so your brain does not start to optimise its learning by trying to use less and less involvement.
thats why its not an easy and simple progression from 3 juggling items to 4 and from 4 to 5 and so on.
thats why you seem to stop growing when doing the same routine day in day out. and thats why you dont grow when you always change your routine.
you have to expose yourself to a routine or method for enough time to learn it, then maximise the results...then subtly change it. And by change that doesnt mean put more weight on...thats why the high rep advocates get results too.
so give MM a break..he was banging his head against a brick wall trying to get people to understand.
-
" Who is it that said.. when the going gets tough... the.. tough gets going ........................ ..Richard Nixon"
;D Was Mike smoking weed during that taping ?
-
once again the cerebrally challenged bag HIT because they dont have a clue.
comments like ''i tried it for a week'', and ''i got so weak on my normal exercises'' show just how you guys dont get it.
so rather than just bag it because you think you understand it but really dont have a clue, just admit that you dont understand it therefore cant apply it.
it follows the most basic of premises and fundamentals of human adaptation to demand. it cannot be wrong.
it applies the exact same principles you mongs already use but extends it to a level that optimises the response.
key factors are rest and time for the neuroloigcal pathways to learn- but not master- responses neurologically and muscularly.
it takes at least 6 months to properly evaluate the effects of HIT and is dependent on proper nutrition and rest as well as systematic application of the principle.
thos who do it right - and actually understand it, all gain weight and muscle as mike describes.
the fact is that it has to be better than other forms of training that work on the same principles but are less efficient.
the only other principle that has some merit is the workload approach where the training attempts to maximise the stress over a given time frame by moving through the maximum load points of an exercise frequently....this can be done with higher reps and short range.
the trick is to also learn the movements so your body recruits the most muscle to do the work- not master it- when you master a movement your body actually starts to recruit less muscle....
its analogous to learning any new skill. take juggling for example. when you start it seems impossible. the next time you try you geta bit better. each time you try, your brain is sorting out how much effort is required to do the task. eventually you recruit enough brain involvement to do the task. As you master it, your brain configures itself to do it better and better. Eventually you can do it easily. in fact its hard to un learn.
when you get to that point you should try something different (not necessarily harder)- so your brain does not start to optimise its learning by trying to use less and less involvement.
thats why its not an easy and simple progression from 3 juggling items to 4 and from 4 to 5 and so on.
thats why you seem to stop growing when doing the same routine day in day out. and thats why you dont grow when you always change your routine.
you have to expose yourself to a routine or method for enough time to learn it, then maximise the results...then subtly change it. And by change that doesnt mean put more weight on...thats why the high rep advocates get results too.
so give MM a break..he was banging his head against a brick wall trying to get people to understand.
What else do you expect from getbiggers with attention spans equivalent to birds?
-
are there any HIT success stories? yates maybe?
-
HIT is as intense as weight training can possibly be in my opinion. Leg day was beyond cruel.
seriously, i know guys who have competed and are tough bastards, they did one workout with h.i.t and said 'fuck this shit' cos it was so intense and draining.
and yes leg day is nasty and gets u sore for days, sometimes u think it would be easier not to fully max out on failure cos as u get better the intensity and pain gets bigger as im sure u know.
I have been doing h.i.t for 6 months and feel better on all levels, getting great results, no impact on the joints like my former training methods (the conventional way)
the only thing i dislike is the post-stress on the body of the workout, it is so intense it literally drains u for days. however, the results make it worthwhile.
-
are there any HIT success stories? yates maybe?
first to those saying mike sounds fucked up in the clip 'well no shit! the guy died of a stroke after filming it' anyone can see that he was not in good health there, and also it is well documented he had heart troubles in the last stages of his life.
to answer ur question - there are several successes. Now with dorian yates here is the key difference between dorian and h.i.t. Dorian took the principle of going to complete failure on one set of each exercise in the same wat h.i.t advocates. dorian had the lowest volume out of any mr. olympia and probably out of any pro bodybuilder.
there are a couple key differences between dorian and mike's true h.i.t regime:
1- Dorian did a few more exercises and there was more overlap (h.i.t advocates only 10 sets for the upperbody during a cycle of workout - eg- 2 upperbody workouts with 5 sets each workout)
2- Dorian did not use the slower rep speed of 4 second positive and 4 second negative. this is the reason he injured several muscles, and i cannot believe he did not injure himself more. I VEHEMENTLY STRESS that h.i.t should never be used with a normal rep speed it is a recipe for injury and joint damage! slow rep speed takes the force out of the use of heavy weight. heavy weight with force will give size but will damage ur body.
3 - dorian rested less than advocated by h.i.t. h.i.t is once every 5 days, dorian was like 3 times per week.
-
Mike really looked out of it in that clip
Hell...I think at one point he wanted that guy not to finsish his last rep because he was tired of talking
-
everyone tries HIT for a week or two.
it looks so good on paper
working out is over rated..I tried it once, then I realized that I could bench 500 for reps on Getbig and do 225 for 112 reps deadlifts
-
first to those saying mike sounds fucked up in the clip 'well no shit! the guy died of a stroke after filming it' anyone can see that he was not in good health there, and also it is well documented he had heart troubles in the last stages of his life.
to answer ur question - there are several successes. Now with dorian yates here is the key difference between dorian and h.i.t. Dorian took the principle of going to complete failure on one set of each exercise in the same wat h.i.t advocates. dorian had the lowest volume out of any mr. olympia and probably out of any pro bodybuilder.
there are a couple key differences between dorian and mike's true h.i.t regime:
1- Dorian did a few more exercises and there was more overlap (h.i.t advocates only 10 sets for the upperbody during a cycle of workout - eg- 2 upperbody workouts with 5 sets each workout)
2- Dorian did not use the slower rep speed of 4 second positive and 4 second negative. this is the reason he injured several muscles, and i cannot believe he did not injure himself more. I VEHEMENTLY STRESS that h.i.t should never be used with a normal rep speed it is a recipe for injury and joint damage! slow rep speed takes the force out of the use of heavy weight. heavy weight with force will give size but will damage ur body.
3 - dorian rested less than advocated by h.i.t. h.i.t is once every 5 days, dorian was like 3 times per week.
In other words: Dorian was a titan of will-power and determination who took it too far and ruined himself. The paradox is that, if he were a little lazier and less determined, he would probably have avoided injuries and won 10 Olympias. Funny World, where a man is punished for being too tenacious and determined...
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
it takes at least 6 months to properly evaluate the effects of HIT and is dependent on proper nutrition and rest as well as systematic application of the principle.
That's not what Mike said. The results would be dramatic and pretty much instantaneous. In fact, Mike said a bodybuilder could reach his full potential in about 1 YEAR! So I don't know why you would have to try it for 6 months to properly evaluate the effects.
Of course, Mike misunderstood the science of hypertrophy and/or simply hadn't researched it much at all. Because there IS exercise science that gives a pretty good idea of what causes hypertrophy and Mike got a lot of it wrong. He particularly overemphasized the importance of failure and also the amount of rest one needs between sessions. For example, he thought that first you recovered from the workout - this would take days - and THEN you would grow. Actually, you grow the most in the first few hours after a training bout (when synthesis of proteins exceeds the breakdown of same).
-
haha 1% is beyond is exaggerating. My squat is STILL 30 pounds below my best, MONTHS later. I didn't "bail" on it, I just had enough. When you go through 6 weeks of that and don't miss training normally you come back to prove me a fool.
What are you suggesting, that I lied about my loss of strength? Why on earth would I do that? I made an HIT log to educate others and I gave my honest final opinion. It causes a significant drop in strength on all lifts but is good as a shock routine to spark muscle growth. Definetely not a good long-term type of routine. It's a thrill. If you love intensity give it a try for 1-4 weeks.
That's just f'ing stupid! 30 pounds is nothing, it's your drive to push more which is not there.
-
That's just f'ing stupid! 30 pounds is nothing, it's your drive to push more which is not there.
100% untrue. My drive is petal to the metal.
-
100% untrue. My drive is petal to the metal.
figgs, what is your best squat?
-
think how i feel...been doing it for 6 months!
my life becomes warped once per week after that workout. in fact i did legs on monday. its friday now and they are still drained!
Damn dude! 6 months! I had to bail out after 6 weeks! I just enjoy the volume trainer far more. I wouldn't do HIT for any longer than 4 weeks at this point even knowing it's a great routine for size.
Have you ever went back on the old way of training at any point in the past 6 months? I'm curious how HIT has effected your strength.
-
what is your best squat?
335 for 7 reps is my best squat.
Imagine being able to squat 335 for reps one day and a few weeks later not even being able to rep with 315.
My squats were steadily increasing when I decided to stray from the typical 6-12 rep range with leg presses and squats to doing 10-20 reps before I busted my finger. I couldn't squat for a while and even caught the flu the first week of my injury and now I'm back at it with a leg press near my peak strength and a squat that goes up 3 reps a week so far! So I do have that good news but I was struggling for a while. Keep in mind I was on HIT december-january. I still havn't got back my 335 for 7, or many other lifts, like incline DB presses, military presses, bb rows, flyes.
-
335 for 7 reps is my best squat.
Imagine being able to squat 335 for reps one day and a few weeks later not even being able to rep with 315.
My squats were steadily increasing when I decided to stray from the typical 6-12 rep range with leg presses and squats to doing 10-20 reps before I busted my finger. I couldn't squat for a while and even caught the flu the first week of my injury and now I'm back at it with a leg press near my peak strength and a squat that goes up 3 reps a week so far! So I do have that good news but I was struggling for a while. Keep in mind I was on HIT december-january. I still havn't got back my 335 for 7, or many other lifts, like incline DB presses, military presses, bb rows, flyes.
sounds like you've got it sorted. have you tried throwing in a complete week off from training every few months or so? I always find that I set new personal records after a week off...
-
sounds like you've got it sorted. have you tried throwing in a complete week off from training every few months or so? I always find that I set new personal records after a week off...
Yes I have taken about 3 weeks off since HIT and it really refreshes my muscles! They're more ready than ever for intense training after a week off.
-
lol you're rediculous what I'm about to say I had to say at least a dozen times to you before.
While training HIT you can't tell that you'd be much weaker on all of your lifts when you go back to traditional training methods, and that's why I was happy with my gains at the time, which I did get. But when I stopped HIT and realized how much strength I lost (I'm still not back to my peak strength months later), I lost all enthusiasm for the training program. I value strength as much as size.
I think you definitely could use HIT for bursts of 4-5 weeks. I know Poliquin has a arm protocol that looks something like this:
4 weeks of GVT (German Volume Training)
4 weeks of traditional volume training 8-10 reps, twice a week
4 weeks of HIT
4 weeks of something else, probably heavy and low reps?
I think you're supposed to start it or end it with the 12 hour arm blitz?
You know, where you do one set of curls and french presses every half hour for 12 hour straight, with a fairly moderate weight.
Google the net or check his website for it, maybe t-mag has it too.
Anyway, as far as the Heavy Duty training goes, it won't recruit all of the Fast Twitch fibers, since you're using low weights, and slow cadence.
It does a good job of recruiting the Slow Twitch however.
To grow a muscle fiber, it needs to be trained. That's why you won't grow to your full potential if staying true to the Heavy Duty protocol. The rep cadence is too slow (especially when contracting), allowing too light weights IMO.
figgs: Do some HIT every once in a while, if you believe you get gains while on it. The loss of strength you suffer, is because of the fiber conversion, you convert from Fast Twitch to Slow Twitch. You should have more endurance these days though. Ie weaker 1RM but a stronger 10RM.
-Hedge
-
In other words: Dorian was a titan of will-power and determination who took it too far and ruined himself. The paradox is that, if he were a little lazier and less determined, he would probably have avoided injuries and won 10 Olympias. Funny World, where a man is punished for being too tenacious and determined...
SUCKMYMUSCLE
::) ::) ::) ::)
no one mentioned lack of determination but yourself.
he lifted in a riskier manner and got injured thats all there is to it.
-
once again the cerebrally challenged bag HIT because they dont have a clue.
comments like ''i tried it for a week'', and ''i got so weak on my normal exercises'' show just how you guys dont get it.
so rather than just bag it because you think you understand it but really dont have a clue, just admit that you dont understand it therefore cant apply it.
it follows the most basic of premises and fundamentals of human adaptation to demand. it cannot be wrong.
it applies the exact same principles you mongs already use but extends it to a level that optimises the response.
key factors are rest and time for the neuroloigcal pathways to learn- but not master- responses neurologically and muscularly.
it takes at least 6 months to properly evaluate the effects of HIT and is dependent on proper nutrition and rest as well as systematic application of the principle.
thos who do it right - and actually understand it, all gain weight and muscle as mike describes.
the fact is that it has to be better than other forms of training that work on the same principles but are less efficient.
the only other principle that has some merit is the workload approach where the training attempts to maximise the stress over a given time frame by moving through the maximum load points of an exercise frequently....this can be done with higher reps and short range.
the trick is to also learn the movements so your body recruits the most muscle to do the work- not master it- when you master a movement your body actually starts to recruit less muscle....
its analogous to learning any new skill. take juggling for example. when you start it seems impossible. the next time you try you geta bit better. each time you try, your brain is sorting out how much effort is required to do the task. eventually you recruit enough brain involvement to do the task. As you master it, your brain configures itself to do it better and better. Eventually you can do it easily. in fact its hard to un learn.
when you get to that point you should try something different (not necessarily harder)- so your brain does not start to optimise its learning by trying to use less and less involvement.
thats why its not an easy and simple progression from 3 juggling items to 4 and from 4 to 5 and so on.
thats why you seem to stop growing when doing the same routine day in day out. and thats why you dont grow when you always change your routine.
you have to expose yourself to a routine or method for enough time to learn it, then maximise the results...then subtly change it. And by change that doesnt mean put more weight on...thats why the high rep advocates get results too.
so give MM a break..he was banging his head against a brick wall trying to get people to understand.
Great post. I learned a litttle there.
-
That's just f'ing stupid! 30 pounds is nothing, it's your drive to push more which is not there.
I hope Figgs will realize from this that he was and is a little irrational and emotional, justifying his extreme love then hate of HIT by something really silly like "i lost 30 lb." boo hoo get over it, give any program that seems to yield results a few months instead of over-reacting for what aren't viable reasons. Basically Figgs over-analyzed based on a numbers fixation, and panicked instead of sticking with it.
And stop attacking the messenger kid, you keep resisting constructive criticism because your psyche is so damn fragile. :o Look at it analytically instead of melting down; i see it objectively, you don't.
-
building his whole premise over a lower lift is not the best approach especially considering the programs involve to different styles of lifting.
the h.i.t and non-h.i.t debate can go on forever. its just a way i decide to live my life and thats right:
"H.I.T IS A WAY OF LIFE!"
R.I.P MIKE MENTZER!
-
lmao what's the matter with you? I had an HIT log here on getbig months ago and when I said it sucked for making me weak as shit you couldn't understand why a bodybuilder would care anything about strength as long as he's getting bigger. And you're still bitching about it to this day when I made it clear so many itmes before!!!
Dude, you did the impossible. Your muscles grew but you lost strength? That doesn't sound very logical. Lets get this straight, you gained lean muscle tissue but grew weaker?
-
;D Was Mike smoking weed during that taping ?
Cut him some slack. He died THAT VERY NIGHT.
-
For all you HIT bashers. Consider this- HIT has a premise and reasoning behind it. What other so-called training protocals have any kind of logic behind them? I'll answer that. NONE.
-
For all you HIT bashers. Consider this- HIT has a premise and reasoning behind it. What other so-called training protocals have any kind of logic behind them? I'll answer that. NONE.
its the only complete exercise science theory of bodybuilding.
he even constructed heavy duty in the format of an academic thesis.
-
everyone tries HIT for a week or two.
it looks so good on paper
i tried one day
-
i tried one day
Sounds like figgs. Did you also whine and cry about it later? ;)
-
Dude, you did the impossible. Your muscles grew but you lost strength? That doesn't sound very logical. Lets get this straight, you gained lean muscle tissue but grew weaker?
Yes, it was baffling how I could gain muscle and lose strength simultaneously. It happened though. Read Hedgehog's post. That's the best explanation I've gotten so far.
Pumpster, you should quit being a bitch. Try HIT and see if it doesn't make you weaker. You're just lucky you have someone to warn you that you will get weaker if you do. I didn't.
I don't regret trying HIT, I just think the results were very inconvenient.
-
Yes, it was baffling how I could gain muscle and lose strength simultaneously. It happened though. Read Hedgehog's post. That's the best explanation I've gotten so far.
Pumpster, you should quit being a bitch. Try HIT and see if it doesn't make you weaker. You're just lucky you have someone to warn you that you will get weaker if you do. I didn't.
I don't regret trying HIT, I just think the results were very inconvenient.
You're oblivous, are still in denial months later, and don't see yourself. Otherwise you'd realize i'm objective and you're not with on one hand fanaticism for HIT then abandoning it after only a month. Makes you look insecure about the weights you were lifting, and unbalanced in going from one extreme to the other. Notice that i'm not the only one saying this about you acting like a chicken with it's head cut off with your love/hate short-lived relationship with HIT.
Deal with it, stop blaming me.
-
You're oblivous, are still in denial months later, and don't see yourself. Otherwise you'd realize i'm objective and you're not with on one hand fanaticism for HIT then abandoning it after only a month. Makes you look insecure about the weights you were lifting, and unbalanced in going from one extreme to the other. Notice that i'm not the only one saying this about you acting like a chicken with it's head cut off with your love/hate short-lived relationship with HIT.
Deal with it, stop blaming me.
whatever dude...im swole off regular 4 sets 10 reps shit
-
whatever dude...im swole off regular 4 sets 10 reps shit
No one who doesn't have the balls to stick with it a few months or has never tried it should be criticizing it.
-
You're oblivous, are still in denial months later, and don't see yourself. Otherwise you'd realize i'm objective and you're not with on one hand fanaticism for HIT then abandoning it after only a month. Makes you look insecure about the weights you were lifting, and unbalanced in going from one extreme to the other. Notice that i'm not the only one saying this about you acting like a chicken with it's head cut off with your love/hate short-lived relationship with HIT.
Deal with it, stop blaming me.
Why are you still worried by my 7 month old training log? I wasn't being irrational by changing my opinion of HIT so immediately, because the discovery of my strength loss was even more sudden than that change. And I place a great deal of value on my strengths and the lifts I achieve.
I think you should just view my opinion of HIT as one man's opinion and not try to endlessly figure out how I arrived to that opinion, which I had explained already so many times before. I am getting tired of slowing myself down for you to catch up.
-
Why are you still worried by my 7 month old training log? I wasn't being irrational by changing my opinion of HIT so immediately, because the discovery of my strength loss was even more sudden than that change. And I place a great deal of value on my strengths and the lifts I achieve.
I think you should just view my opinion of HIT as one man's opinion and not try to endlessly figure out how I arrived to that opinion, which I had explained already so many times before. I am getting tired of slowing myself down for you to catch up.
You're in denial. Stop talking and start absorbing reality.
-
No one who doesn't have the balls to stick with it a few months or has never tried it should be criticizing it.
and let me see your pics...here i am
-
and let me see your pics...here i am
That proves absolutely nothing.
-
You're in denial. Stop talking and start absorbing reality.
You once again prove you're impossible to exchange information with.
-
That proves absolutely nothing.
u show me the wonders of HIT training on you
-
u show me the wonders of HIT training on you
You're getting sillier and sillier. Not bad physique but mine's better by the way; I'm not getting into a pissing contest that has nothing to do with this thead just because you're a macho man.
-
Just to put back some life into this thread where pumpster shitted all over it...
-
Just to put back some life into this thread where pumpster shitted all over it...
Ahhhh yes the pussy-boy who has been told by several on here that he's in denail, still unwilling to accept the truth & panicked on HIT before bailing.
Continue on kid, with more of your years of wisdom. ::)
-
You're getting sillier and sillier. Not bad physique but mine's better by the way; I'm not getting into a pissing contest that has nothing to do with this thead just because you're a macho man.
i can tell from the pics
-
Ahhhh yes the pussy-boy who has been told by several on here that he's in denail, still unwilling to accept the truth & panicked on HIT before bailing.
Continue on kid, with more of your years of wisdom. ::)
What am I in denial about? I faced the truth that I got weaker and I couldn't deal with it so I stopped the routine that was responsible. There's no denial in these words. You're the only one here arguing this.
-
everyone on this board should know that pumpster does not even go to a gym.
this clown posted a picture of his home gym/bowflex in the "truce" thread and challenged everyone to a "400 pound bowflex bench press".
he was made fun of so much, that he disappeared for about 3 months.
now, he's back thinking he can talk about everyone and everything despite never going to a gym.
he is also a moderator in the training forum and would delet my posts everytime when i informed the other members that they were taking advice and being ridiculed by someone who uses a bowflex.
-
That's not what Mike said. The results would be dramatic and pretty much instantaneous. In fact, Mike said a bodybuilder could reach his full potential in about 1 YEAR! So I don't know why you would have to try it for 6 months to properly evaluate the effects.
Of course, Mike misunderstood the science of hypertrophy and/or simply hadn't researched it much at all. Because there IS exercise science that gives a pretty good idea of what causes hypertrophy and Mike got a lot of it wrong. He particularly overemphasized the importance of failure and also the amount of rest one needs between sessions. For example, he thought that first you recovered from the workout - this would take days - and THEN you would grow. Actually, you grow the most in the first few hours after a training bout (when synthesis of proteins exceeds the breakdown of same).
i never read these things you claim here from mike....but if he did say it then perhaps he was under some kind of mental stress because it goes against most of what he wrote.
in the context of mike's claims re instantaneous effect- on a microscale he is correct of course, as it does occur instantaneously...i dont know of the comments you state to refute my post but i'd be interested to hear them in the context of the surrounding discussion or writings...thats the problem with 2 sentences taken from his volumes of published work.
-
everyone on this board should know that pumpster does not even go to a gym.
this clown posted a picture of his home gym/bowflex in the "truce" thread and challenged everyone to a "400 pound bowflex bench press".
he was made fun of so much, that he disappeared for about 3 months.
now, he's back thinking he can talk about everyone and everything despite never going to a gym.
he is also a moderator in the training forum and would delet my posts everytime when i informed the other members that they were taking advice and being ridiculed by someone who uses a bowflex.
hahahaahaha do you have the pic?
-
i never read these things you claim here from mike....but if he did say it then perhaps he was under some kind of mental stress because it goes against most of what he wrote.
in the context of mike's claims re instantaneous effect- on a microscale he is correct of course, as it does occur instantaneously...i dont know of the comments you state to refute my post but i'd be interested to hear them in the context of the surrounding discussion or writings...thats the problem with 2 sentences taken from his volumes of published work.
I don't know which part you disagree with but check this:
http://www.mikementzer.com/actpotential.html
http://www.mikementzer.com/actpotentialtwo.html
http://www.mikementzer.com/actpotentialthree.html
the actualization of one's potential, too, is a genetically determined trait; therefore, there will be those who reach their upper limits in a matter of a few months, some a year and others slightly longer.
So, reaching full potential could take only a few months or, sometimes, SLIGHTLY longer than a year in others. Do you agree with this?
-
everyone on this board should know that pumpster does not even go to a gym.
this clown posted a picture of his home gym/bowflex in the "truce" thread and challenged everyone to a "400 pound bowflex bench press".
he was made fun of so much, that he disappeared for about 3 months.
now, he's back thinking he can talk about everyone and everything despite never going to a gym.
he is also a moderator in the training forum and would delet my posts everytime when i informed the other members that they were taking advice and being ridiculed by someone who uses a bowflex.
I offered money to bench 400 on a bow and none of the puzzies took my money. ;D ;D ;D It's all there in previous posts. For all the novices here, Darden was/is a big HIT proponent and loves the bow, because it's a good piece of equipment. GH15 also says same.
My groupie icecold's cute, innin he? :-* :-* :-*
-
I think we never really see the products of Jones' HIT (except Oliva and Viator) because intensity takes will and not many have it. Arnold's sessions are equally brutal but in a different way. Taking each set to failure hurts and drains you. Just "trying" it sucks and makes many quit because they are afraid to build the stamina and have weights go down for a bit. Viator and Oliva (who were both strong) had this happen but they got stronger in a style of workout that many puss out of. They both built there bodies up doing this. I guarantee that many can could see a positive effect. The body can adapt to anything and grow so make it. A month on any program, as pumpster has said to me on more than one occasion, is not long enough to gauge success.
-
hahahaahaha do you have the pic?
Figgs is such a friggin puzzy that instead of accepting the truth & seeing himself clearly, he hurls insults like the prepubescent kid and lifting novice he is. In those pics of his he doesn't even seem to have reached puberty.
Grow up kid, i'm not the only one here providing the reality check on your whining and balless failure to continue HIT.
Notice icecold never discusses training on getbig, because he doesn't train. I predict that cap will have to balls to stay on HIT long enough to know whether it works and stick with it longer if it does. He'll get more of his potential out of it because he's far more in the hardcore BB vein than these clowns.
-
It was Mentzer himself who said results are immediate with a successful training program.
-
It was Mentzer himself who said results are immediate with a successful training program.
AND THE EXTENT OF THIS SUCCESS WAS PREDICATED BY GENETICS, AND SECOND FACTOR NUTRITION. 8)
-
hahahaahaha do you have the pic?
This is the pic.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
This is the pic.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Ya that's me right in the middle of the room LOL.
-
Ya that's me right in the middle of the room LOL.
But Pumpy, you did post this on Ironage as the picture of your own Bowflex, didn't you? I have that thread archived. If you want, I can post a link to it here. ;)
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
One thing about HIT is this- Anybody ever read about the leg workouts Jones put Viator through? Or anybody who watched that HIT video? Unless you have somebody putting you through those workouts, really pushing you how could you do them? How could you do them on your own with that kind of intensity? If you had a great training partner maybe.
-
EVERY good set of legs in bodybuilding history was build with volume training.
period.
dogg crap guys have no legs.
HIT guys have no legs.
Period.
-
EVERY good set of legs in bodybuilding history was build with volume training.
period.
dogg crap guys have no legs.
HIT guys have no legs.
Period.
my quads are proof that wat u just said is a lie.
dorian had quads mike mentzer had quads. and many others.
-
Mentzer sounds incredibly camp and that workout is tame. Dorian Yates once said that Americans don't train hard and that clip is a perfect example.
-
One thing about HIT is this- Anybody ever read about the leg workouts Jones put Viator through? Or anybody who watched that HIT video? Unless you have somebody putting you through those workouts, really pushing you how could you do them? How could you do them on your own with that kind of intensity? If you had a great training partner maybe.
The intensity in that video wasn't anything special. Mentzer spots Marcus on one forced rep, then Marcus does one more without any spot on his own! LMAO, WTF? He probably had one more in him.
-
The intensity in that video wasn't anything special. Mentzer spots Marcus on one forced rep, then Marcus does one more without any spot on his own! LMAO, WTF? He probably had one more in him.
He had lots more in him. It's laughable. Mentzer had a body built purely from steroids and knew nothing at all about real high intensity.
-
He had lots more in him. It's laughable. Mentzer had a body built purely from steroids and knew nothing at all about real high intensity.
does ronnie coleman train with more intensity? AND high volume?
-
The intensity in that video wasn't anything special. Mentzer spots Marcus on one forced rep, then Marcus does one more without any spot on his own! LMAO, WTF? He probably had one more in him.
van_bilderass, i agree to the eye it might not look so intense. but on ur next workout try it, and im sure u will scream 'AYYYYYYYYYY KARUMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA A'
-
I offered money to bench 400 on a bow and none of the puzzies took my money. ;D ;D ;D It's all there in previous posts. For all the novices here, Darden was/is a big HIT proponent and loves the bow, because it's a good piece of equipment. GH15 also says same.
My groupie icecold's cute, innin he? :-* :-* :-*
wait, gh15 advocates HIT training? Really?
-
What a couple of fairies. Even while on steroids that joker can only manage a few reps with a light barbell. Pathetic pair of pricks.
-
wait, gh15 advocates HIT training? Really?
I doubt it. with all the shit he advocates taking, i'm guessing the gym is an all-day thing
-
The intensity in that video wasn't anything special. Mentzer spots Marcus on one forced rep, then Marcus does one more without any spot on his own! LMAO, WTF? He probably had one more in him.
That video's disappointing as far as what HIT's been presented as. There were no reps in negative failure, no assistance from Mentzer in terms of forced reps, etc. I hope that clip's not a good representation, otherwise HIT's just code for taking it relatively easy.
-
I hope that clip's not a good representation, otherwise HIT's just code for taking it relatively easy.
try it. i'm sure u will change ur mind about that statement ;)
-
I think he means that particular clip didn't make it look too hard, so it didn't really show HIT. The guy didn't even reach positive failure, never mind forced or negative work. Just wasn't Mentzer's finest hour.
-
I think he means that particular clip didn't make it look too hard, so it didn't really show HIT. The guy didn't even reach positive failure, never mind forced or negative work. Just wasn't Mentzer's finest hour.
AHH OK, YES ME AND PUMPSTER HAVE CONVERSED EXTENSIVELY.
I will say this: that clip looks like namby pamby affair.
Its only after doing the routine i could see the pain. when i first saw it, i thought this is wak, the reps looked weird, etc.
they should have made a hardcore video, but i think the aim of the video was more for a commercial audience, cos there were plans for the book to drop together with a distribution deal, but mike died, and then just the book came out a little later.
-
RIP Mentzer.
Seemed like a really tortured guy.
-
Just wasn't Mentzer's finest hour.
I hope not. He died later that same night.
-
they should have made a hardcore video, but i think the aim of the video was more for a commercial audience, cos there were plans for the book to drop together with a distribution deal, but mike died, and then just the book came out a little later.
Are there any that are more representative? There's almost nothing else under Mentzer's name.
-
Are there any that are more representative? There's almost nothing else under Mentzer's name.
some young dude had an amateur video on youtube but he took it down, it was a better representation.
I am going to get someone filming me doing H.I.T. my physique is not great However, just by looking at the intensity in my face and eyes and the levels of failure i reach u will see it is intense (one of my friends who competes saw me doing just 3 reps of dips...and he said the pain and intensity he could see on my face, he actually felt sorry for me).
H.I.T should be represented in its hardcore nature. If u see pictures of mentzer doing it, he is practically sprawled, almost dieing, being crushed in the pec deck machine doing statics, negatives and positive failure. if i had a scanner i would upload these pictures.
all i need now is to get a friend to film me and i will post it on youtube to show u.
-
some young dude had an amateur video on youtube but he took it down, it was a better representation.
I am going to get someone filming me doing H.I.T. my physique is not great However, just by looking at the intensity in my face and eyes and the levels of failure i reach u will see it is intense (one of my friends who competes saw me doing just 3 reps of dips...and he said the pain and intensity he could see on my face, he actually felt sorry for me).
H.I.T should be represented in its hardcore nature. If u see pictures of mentzer doing it, he is practically sprawled, almost dieing, being crushed in the pec deck machine doing statics, negatives and positive failure. if i had a scanner i would upload these pictures.
all i need now is to get a friend to film me and i will post it on youtube to show u.
bump for getbiggers on youtube! I love the youtube shit! post away!
-
Too bad no one taped Figgs about 7-8 months ago. Sounds like he went all-out on it and would've been perfect for clips before dropping HIT after making gains.
-
Too bad no one taped Figgs about 7-8 months ago. Sounds like he went all-out on it and would've been perfect for clips before dropping HIT after making gains.
The footage would be more shocking than anything else. When I was on HIT people in the gym would watch me like I was out of my fucking mind. And they'd watch me struggling with baby weights it was a bit embarassing.
-
did we ever learn what killed his brother right after him? Seems so odd that they'd both check out the same week.
-
The footage would be more shocking than anything else. When I was on HIT people in the gym would watch me like I was out of my fucking mind. And they'd watch me struggling with baby weights it was a bit embarassing.
this comment is funny.
after reading ur comment, i go do my workout and what happens:
90 pounds leg extensions x 7 reps failure pre-exhaust directly to squats 50 pounds x 2 1/2 rep failure lol.
baby weights but with h.i.t it is monstrous. the slow reps kill ya.
-
I did 31 reps with 100 lbs on straight barbell curls.
Would this have made Mentzer proud??
???
:-*
-
I did 31 reps with 100 lbs on straight barbell curls.
Would this have made Mentzer proud??
???
:-*
He would have adopted you ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
did we ever learn what killed his brother right after him? Seems so odd that they'd both check out the same week.
anyone?
-
anyone?
Kidney failure is what I read. He was on dialysis for a while before his death.
-
Now I know what training with the guy who hangs out at the deli all day talking to the hired help would be like.
-
How's it feel training biceps while high on meth? ???
-
anyone?
using my logic, and knowing how close the brothers were...my opinion is ray, so devastated by his brohters death, being bed ridden on dialysis every day not even being able to help himself, decided it would be better to die than live without his brother, etc like he had nothing to live for. so he would have just stopped the dialysis and died.
-
I knew a CHP who once arrested Mike posing naked alongside the 405, crying about "fucking Arnold." He was too big to cuff; said they had to double 'em up to get his hands together.
True story. I had to tell him who Mentzer was.
-
Was he high on meth during the arrest?
-
What a sad story. Mentzer looked incredible IMO during his peak. Ive been reading about him lately, most claim these health problems "ran in the family".
-
What a sad story. Mentzer looked incredible IMO during his peak. Ive been reading about him lately, most claim these health problems "ran in the family".
in the 90's he was fine.
in the 80's was when he went off the rails.
alot of these stories are bull, its hard to tell which ones are true.
-
Id go off the rails if Arnold stole my Olympia. -Ugh- :-\
-
Id go off the rails if Arnold stole my Olympia. -Ugh- :-\
MIKE SHOULD HAVE WON IT!
WE ALL KNOW IT.
EVEN TOM PLATZ SAID MIKE LOOKED AMAZING AND HIS BEST EVER!
-
mike should've won it? was that when he ended up 4th or something
-
mike should've won it? was that when he ended up 4th or something
yeah 4th! (D.L.5 proceeds to puke and slap a picture of Joe Weider several times, before removing the picture off a wall and wiping his ass with it)
"INJUSTICE!" MENTZER IS AN UNCROWNED MR. OLYMPIA!
-
once again the cerebrally challenged bag HIT because they dont have a clue.
comments like ''i tried it for a week'', and ''i got so weak on my normal exercises'' show just how you guys dont get it.
so rather than just bag it because you think you understand it but really dont have a clue, just admit that you dont understand it therefore cant apply it.
it follows the most basic of premises and fundamentals of human adaptation to demand. it cannot be wrong.
it applies the exact same principles you mongs already use but extends it to a level that optimises the response.
key factors are rest and time for the neuroloigcal pathways to learn- but not master- responses neurologically and muscularly........
thats why you seem to stop growing when doing the same routine day in day out. and thats why you dont grow when you always change your routine.
you have to expose yourself to a routine or method for enough time to learn it, then maximise the results...then subtly change it. And by change that doesnt mean put more weight on...thats why the high rep advocates get results too.
It is one thing to believe you have the right theory and another to actually be right. I have tried the HIT method over the years and was impressed with what Arthur Jones wrote. He did achieve a good result with Sergio. A great result, even. However, the program Sergio did for legs, for example, wasn't pure HIT principles but a volume workout. Especially if you eventually repeated the 3 exercises twice.
The key criticism I have of HIT is what stimulus actually triggers hypertrophy. I take it Arthur and others reasoned that the muscle would not grow unless some unusual demand was placed on the muscle. It remains to be seen if the training to failure is a requirement for growth. I know it is not. In that video clip Mike is claiming that the last almost undoable rep is the one imposing new demands on the muscle and it is the rep that triggers growth. Nope, that is not what happens. If you accumulate lots of last reps in a workout you might have a better chance of growing. Why? Well, big muscles are for endurance workouts. By endurance I mean set after set with heavy weights. That is what almost all big bodybuilders do. It is the common factor that accounts for their size.
Here is an actual goal I had about 8 years ago. I was seeing if I could make my arms grow again. So I tried to apply the principles I knew about applying mechanical tension to a muscle of a certain maximum amount, for a certain length of time. I concluded it was about 1 to 2 minutes of intense mechanical tension that induced hypertrophy. Well, I was floating along and finally hit 17inch cold upper arms. Then the growth stopped. No matter how much mechanical tension I put on my biceps and triceps they did not grow. My arms were literally shaking when I finished those brutal workouts. So one day I decided to include lying triceps extensions instead of pressdowns for triceps. Voila, my arms grew over night and they were really sore the next day. How was it possible to get a trained muscle sore like that? A light went on in my head and now I understood why I had not grown rapidly all those years previously when training. Lots of things are important but a few are necessary. The necessary thing for triceps is to train them in a stretched position with elbows restricted. Then do heaps of sets with the maximum resistance after a thorough warmup. Also, don't ever let elbows touch any pads for biceps or triceps work. You will damage the sheath covering the elbow and be sore for the rest of your life. Be careful. Once my arms were sore I kept them sore for a month and they measured 18 inches cold at the end. I didn't know then not to rub the elbows on the pads so they got sore and I had to stop. I resumed that kind of training years later and it always stimulates growth. A gym is not fully equipped without one of these machines.
Now, is there an equivalence between HIT and volume training? I doubt it. Some here are convinced HIT is the method. Well, it has been around a long time. HST has been around, too. Neither are optimal ways to train. They might work for a while on intermediate guys but I doubt advanced bodybuilders will grow much using those methods. If the theory doesn't work there is something wrong with the theory.
Arthur couldn't have missed the fact that big muscles aren't proportionally stronger than smaller muscles. Why not? Why can't guys like Sergio and Arnold curl over 300 pounds easily? Well, their muscles have adapted for another use. They can do set after set after set after set after set with a reasonably heavy weight. HIT can't do this and that is why the method ultimately is limited. I wish it were otherwise. I hate long workouts. After all these years it is disappointing to have to reject what Arthur and Mike and now Darden promote. Plainly that method is false. It cannot generate maximum hypertrophy because it misses the essential reason muscles need to get huge. Volume.
If we accept that typical bodybuilders are not dopes but neither Mensa members then it is clear the guys would have embraced HIT if that was required to get huge. The one guy who gave it a fair go got injured. Yep, HIT is bloody dangerous. All that limit stuff and straining away. When you think about it that can't be the stimulus for growth. In nature animals can get big but don't have to strain to do so.
A comment about Mike in the video. I talked to Mike in April 1991 in Golds Gym, Venice. When I saw him in that video I was shocked. He looked old. His voice sounded slurred and he didn't have the control he used to have. Mike was one guy you didn't jerk around. He was always sharp and alert in reasoning and thinking. That was not the Mike I met. He was 49 when he died but he looks much older. That is a very sad video.
Ray was a mate and he ended up living a wretched life, too. If you knew the Mentzers you would never believe such proud guys would go like that. When Mike died Ray would have lost any possible donor for a kidney. Ray was a very serious guy and easily upset but just wanted others to leave him alone.
I was at the 80 Olympia. Mentzer looked great in some shots but wasn't the winner. One day I will post all the photos I took that support my statement.
-
I heard Mike did everything in a HIT manner....For instance..him and Ray would score some Speed...Mike would inhale twice the amount needed in a short time period. Fucking sick way of life......he trained the same way he lived....quick and to the point....
-
Strausberg, Germany
-
I bought Mentzer's book Heavy Duty years back and followed the routines outlined inside to a tee. I worked out once a week, doing the split recommended and still made excellent strength gains. My joints were sore as hell after about 4 months though, and I switched back to a combination of high/low rep training. I stick one cycle of HIT in once a year maybe and it still works well for me. Hell at 4 months shy of 40 I'm in the best shape of my life.
-
you tell em vince
-
I heard Mike did everything in a HIT manner....For instance..him and Ray would score some Speed...Mike would inhale twice the amount needed in a short time period. Fucking sick way of life......he trained the same way he lived....quick and to the point....
youre a sick, sick, sick man.
-
Was he high on meth during the arrest?
What a mess. Did mentzer ever have any happy days, or was he always a tortured mess?
-
It is inevitable that some bodybuilders will suffer from mental illnesses. If some fool around with various mood drugs then what can we say. Mike was bitterly disappointed with bodybuilding and the last straw was the 1980 Mr Olympia. There was a lot riding on that contest. Intelligence, methods, etc. That Arnold got a gift is probably true mainly because all the judges knew Arnold well and some were mates. Not the best people to judge a contest fairly. History can be cruel and look at what happened. Several of the top competitors from 1980 boycotted the 81 Olympia and a very ordinary Franco won. Mike never enterred again and was the ultimate victim afterwards.
I knew Ray Mentzer because he stayed at my place for months in the late 80's. He related many stories to me and it seems Mike was the favoured kid as far as Dad went. Those two were brothers but competitors, too. Both were highly intelligent and underestimated the side effects of using so many drugs. Ray's girlfriend told me she couldn't be around Ray when he was preparing for contests. She said he and his mates would take stuff to prepare them for heavy training and then take stuff to come down from those highs. Plus the anabolic drugs and whatever other gonad stimulators they thought they needed. Ray lamented in 1991, when I stayed at his house, that lots of the big guys were getting sick when their bodyweight approached 300 pounds. Ray always seemed clued in to me so I have no idea what happened. Some say he had a kidney disorder that appeared late in life but others blame all the drugs those guys used. I really can't say.
Ray did relate some stories about Mike and it appears he abused alcohol and some mood drugs. I have no specifics about what happened. The guy would have perplexed any officers who had to deal with him. That much is certain. When you see the last video Mike made you realize he aged rapidly in the last 10 years of his life. 50 is young as far as I am concerned. It really is not nice witnessing guys come and go like that. Mike was one of the very few philosophers in bodybuilding and his ideas have contributed to what we all know.
-
It's all about the blood,,,,the more blood, the better the pump.
-
Thanks for the very good posts Vince! Some good reading there. :)
-
vince this is the best info on mike and ray every.
please tell us more! thank you
-
vince this is the best info on mike and ray every.
please tell us more! thank you
I agree - Vince, please share more.
-
I agree - Vince, please share more.
also vince do u work out in 'hata blockers' like jay cutler.
-
It is inevitable that some bodybuilders will suffer from mental illnesses. If some fool around with various mood drugs then what can we say. Mike was bitterly disappointed with bodybuilding and the last straw was the 1980 Mr Olympia. There was a lot riding on that contest. Intelligence, methods, etc. That Arnold got a gift is probably true mainly because all the judges knew Arnold well and some were mates. Not the best people to judge a contest fairly. History can be cruel and look at what happened. Several of the top competitors from 1980 boycotted the 81 Olympia and a very ordinary Franco won. Mike never enterred again and was the ultimate victim afterwards.
I knew Ray Mentzer because he stayed at my place for months in the late 80's. He related many stories to me and it seems Mike was the favoured kid as far as Dad went. Those two were brothers but competitors, too. Both were highly intelligent and underestimated the side effects of using so many drugs. Ray's girlfriend told me she couldn't be around Ray when he was preparing for contests. She said he and his mates would take stuff to prepare them for heavy training and then take stuff to come down from those highs. Plus the anabolic drugs and whatever other gonad stimulators they thought they needed. Ray lamented in 1991, when I stayed at his house, that lots of the big guys were getting sick when their bodyweight approached 300 pounds. Ray always seemed clued in to me so I have no idea what happened. Some say he had a kidney disorder that appeared late in life but others blame all the drugs those guys used. I really can't say.
Ray did relate some stories about Mike and it appears he abused alcohol and some mood drugs. I have no specifics about what happened. The guy would have perplexed any officers who had to deal with him. That much is certain. When you see the last video Mike made you realize he aged rapidly in the last 10 years of his life. 50 is young as far as I am concerned. It really is not nice witnessing guys come and go like that. Mike was one of the very few philosophers in bodybuilding and his ideas have contributed to what we all know.
Tell us more about Mike and Ray, Basile.