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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Sports Discussion Boards => Topic started by: Dos Equis on December 02, 2007, 11:18:15 AM
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Kevin Smith of Central Florida has 2448 yards rushing, 29 TDs, 230 yards receiving, and 1 TD. He has ZERO fumbles this year (according to ESPN).
Colt Brennan is 337 for 472 for 4174 yards, 71.4 percent, 38 TDs, 14 INTs, 8 rushing TDs, 166 efficiency rating. That's in about 9 games. Graham Harrell leads the nation with 45 TD passes on 644 attempts (that's 172 MORE than Colt).
It is likely that neither Smith nor Colt will even be invited to New York, much less win. I wonder how some of those voters sleep at night.
Oh . . . and schedule . . . blah blah blah.
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OK, "Beach Bum" ::) ::)
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OK, "Beach Bum" ::) ::)
::)
And while I'm at it, there is no way on God's green earth that Troy Smith was the best player in the country, the best QB in the country, or even better than Colt Brennan last year.
Maybe I'll turn this into a Heisman rant. :) Next up . . . how Heisman voters received a black eye by giving the award to Gino Torretta over Marshall Faulk. . . .
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Troy Smith owns all you haters' minds!
(http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/061210/061210_smith_vlrg_12p.widec.jpg)
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I'd say he was pretty much exposed in the "National Championship" game: 4 for 14 for 35 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT, and 5 sacks.
But what the hey. He was able to use his Heisman hype to help get drafted at the end of the 5th round and will be holding a clip board for the rest of his career in the NFL, however short-lived. :)
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I was never impressed with him and frankly, that game was boring to watch. The best bowl game last year was the Fiesta Bowl with BSU.
I guess 3rd string for Smith isn't bad. ;D
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Then there was Troy Davis of Iowa State years back. Had back-to-back 2000 yard seasons and never really got close to winning. I think he was the first RB in the NCCA to rush for 2000 yards and NOT win the Heisman?
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Sorry Beach Bum but schedule has a lot to do with it.
HI barely got by Washington for heavens sakes.
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Kevin Smith of Central Florida has 2448 yards rushing, 29 TDs, 230 yards receiving, and 1 TD. He has ZERO fumbles this year (according to ESPN).
Colt Brennan is 337 for 472 for 4174 yards, 71.4 percent, 38 TDs, 14 INTs, 8 rushing TDs, 166 efficiency rating. That's in about 9 games. Graham Harrell leads the nation with 45 TD passes on 644 attempts (that's 172 MORE than Colt).
It is likely that neither Smith nor Colt will even be invited to New York, much less win. I wonder how some of those voters sleep at night.
Oh . . . and schedule . . . blah blah blah.
Beach all you guys listed are great players. But schedule and opposition have to be taken into account. A lot of the teams these guys face are not even close to as good as the top college talent in conferences like the sec, acc and big ten.
I mean not even in the same stratosphere. Colt is a great player , but I am certain if they played a team like LSU they would lose by about 45 points.
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Beach all you guys listed are great players. But schedule and opposition have to be taken into account. A lot of the teams these guys face are not even close to as good as the top college talent in conferences like the sec, acc and big ten.
Agreed.
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Sorry Beach Bum but schedule has a lot to do with it.
HI barely got by Washington for heavens sakes.
Cartel here are Colt's numbers from last night: 42-50, 442 yards, 5 TDs, 0 INTs, game-winning TD with about 40 seconds left in the game.
I don't buy that schedule nonsense. These are division I players. Voters cannot simply ignore a guy like Kevin Smith who has put up Barry Sanders-like numbers. Smith isn't even a Doalk Walker award finalist for goodness sake.
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Beach all you guys listed are great players. But schedule and opposition have to be taken into account. A lot of the teams these guys face are not even close to as good as the top college talent in conferences like the sec, acc and big ten.
You mean like Kansas playing the following:
Central Michigan
SE Louisiana
Toledo
Florida International
Baylor
Iowa State
and Ohio State playing:
Youngstown State
Akron
Kent State
I think the schedule argument is a croc. If you have a guy like Smith putting up numbers like no other player in the history of college football except Barry Sanders, you can't simply ignore the kid. I bet voters haven't even watched the kid play.
Same with Colt. I challenge anyone to watch the kid play and tell me he is not an outstanding football player.
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I mean not even in the same stratosphere. Colt is a great player , but I am certain if they played a team like LSU they would lose by about 45 points.
Whatever dude. They said the same thing about Boise and Oklahoma last year and we all know how that turned out. I heard Kiper discount that win by saying Oklahoma didn't want to be there. ::)
And speaking of last year, UH almost beat Alabama in Tuscaloosa, beat Purdue, almost beat Oregon State, and beat Arizona State, all "BCS" schools.
But I guess we shall see on New Year’s day. :)
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You mean like Kansas playing the following:
Central Michigan
SE Louisiana
Toledo
Florida International
Baylor
Iowa State
and Ohio State playing:
Youngstown State
Akron
Kent State
I think the schedule argument is a croc. If you have a guy like Smith putting up numbers like no other player in the history of college football except Barry Sanders, you can't simply ignore the kid. I bet voters haven't even watched the kid play.
Same with Colt. I challenge anyone to watch the kid play and tell me he is not an outstanding football player.
He is outstanding. The problem is others are outstanding vs the best the country has to offer. Colt is a great player , no doubt about it.
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He is outstanding. The problem is others are outstanding vs the best the country has to offer. Colt is a great player , no doubt about it.
Others like who? There isn't a player in the country who played better than Kevin Smith. Same with Colt, particularly when you look at the fact he has only played in about 9 games this year.
And which part of the Heisman criteria says strength of schedule is a factor? The award is supposed to go to the best player in the country. I'm not sure how old you are, but do you remember Gino Torretta (Miami) vs. Marshall Faulk (San Diego State)? That's when my Heisman rant started. Same argument made back then: Torretta played in a tougher conference, only lost 1 game in his career, Faulk played in the WAC, etc. Didn't make sense then and doesn't make sense today.
Also, these kids are playing against NFL caliber players. For example, the WAC had 17 players drafted last year, not counting FA signees. UH put 11 players in NFL camps last year.
I just pointed out two schools (Kansas and Ohio State) who played some pretty soft games. If I had the desire (which I don’t) I could probably pull about 10 other “BCS” schools with the same kinds of games on their schedule. I think the schedule argument is a copout people use when they don’t want to confront statistics and game film.
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Also, if these "BCS" schools have such vastly superior teams, why did:
- Michigan State pay $250,000 to Hawaii to avoid playing them this year at Michigan State (we beat them in Hawaii three years ago)?
- Michigan turn down an offer to play Hawaii at Michigan and opt instead for Appalachian State?
- Somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 "BCS" schools turn down between $700,000 and $1 million and an ESPN game to play at UH in 2007?
What are they afraid of?
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- Michigan turn down an offer to play Hawaii at Michigan and opt instead for Appalachian State?
In hindsight, that wasn't a good choice.
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::)
And while I'm at it, there is no way on God's green earth that Troy Smith was the best player in the country, the best QB in the country, or even better than Colt Brennan last year.
Smith wasn't even the best player on his team.
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Whatever dude. They said the same thing about Boise and Oklahoma last year and we all know how that turned out. I heard Kiper discount that win by saying Oklahoma didn't want to be there. ::)
And speaking of last year, UH almost beat Alabama in Tuscaloosa, beat Purdue, almost beat Oregon State, and beat Arizona State, all "BCS" schools.
But I guess we shall see on New Year’s day. :)
A 7-5 ASU should not be factored in to this equation.
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In hindsight, that wasn't a good choice.
Six and a half/half dozen. We would have beaten them too, but it wouldn't have been as much of a black eye. :)
Continuing the Heisman rant, RB Matt Forte of Tulane has 2127 yards rushing and 23 TDs and 282 yards receiving. In other words, he has done what only a handful of RBs in the history of college football have done (run for over 2000 yards in a season). Not only is he not a Heisman contender, but he isn't a Doalk Walker finalist. But Mike Hart of Michigan is, after finishing as the 24th best RB in the country. ::)
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Smith wasn't even the best player on his team.
Correct. Ted Ginn helped him a great deal.
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A 7-5 ASU should not be factored in to this equation.
I see. So we only factor in the "good" BCS schools? They had the 26th best defense in the country when we ran them up and down the field.
Do we factor in Purdue, who I believe was the third or fourth best team in the Big 10 when we played them?
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I see. So we only factor in the "good" BCS schools? They had the 26th best defense in the country when we ran them up and down the field.
Do we factor in Purdue, who I believe was the third or fourth best team in the Big 10 when we played them?
No, I'm just saying that was a shit year for that team and their defense was clearly off until this year. I'm no Hawaii fans but it's like Rutgers making the same argument against ASU when Rutgers narrowly lost in the Insight Bowl.
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No, I'm just saying that was a shit year for that team and their defense was clearly off until this year. I'm no Hawaii fans but it's like Rutgers making the same argument against ASU when Rutgers narrowly lost in the Insight Bowl.
That's not entirely accurate. I'm pretty sure they had the 26th ranked D in the country last year when we played them. We scored 41 points and had 680 yards.
Against Purdue, we scored 42 points and had 653 yards.
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That's not entirely accurate. I'm pretty sure they had the 26th ranked D in the country last year when we played them. We scored 41 points and had 680 yards.
Against Purdue, we scored 42 points and had 653 yards.
I have no knowledge about Purdue so I can't address that but seeing enough of the Pac-10 I know that their defense progressed slightly last year but it is night and day compared to this year. I'm not bashing Hawaii I just have opinions about certain teams, especially Oregon. They beat teams but I felt that they were a Dixon-team and teams had to eliminate him from the equation to do anything and that their wins were more a part of bad defenses than their greatness.
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I have no knowledge about Purdue so I can't address that but seeing enough of the Pac-10 I know that their defense progressed slightly last year but it is night and day compared to this year. I'm not bashing Hawaii I just have opinions about certain teams, especially Oregon. They beat teams but I felt that they were a Dixon-team and teams had to eliminate him from the equation to do anything and that their wins were more a part of bad defenses than their greatness.
Understood. I was focusing on body's point about the level of competition and how, as far as UH is concerned, our offense and Colt performed the same regardless of competition.
And back to my Heisman rant, Texas Tech WR Michael Crabtree had 125 receptions for 1861 yards and 21 TDs. In addition to not going to the right school, he is probably a "system" WR, so we should discount his incredible season. ::)
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The competition argument will always come up with BSU and UH and is justified to an extent. In terms of teams who seems to blow some out of the water, I really wonder how guys like Brennan and Dixon will do in the NFL, assuming they make it. Their systems do set them up for success but I'm not sure the NFL will be an easy transition.
As far as voting, Brennan and Johnson certainly had cases for last year and definitely got shafted.
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The competition argument will always come up with BSU and UH and is justified to an extent. In terms of teams who seems to blow some out of the water, I really wonder how guys like Brennan and Dixon will do in the NFL, assuming they make it. Their systems do set them up for success but I'm not sure the NFL will be an easy transition.
As far as voting, Brennan and Johnson certainly had cases for last year and definitely got shafted.
The system argument is bunk. Every QB is in a system. He has to read defenses and make all of the throws just like any other QB.
Regarding the pros, players like Roethlisberger, Pennington, Leftwich, Romo, etc. have shown a good player is a good player, regardless of where they went to school.
Now how many highly touted QBs out of Miami, Florida, Florida State et al. have bombed in the NFL? (Rhetorical question.)
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My question is this. If Mcfadden can drop 300 yards on the best team in the nation (LSU) with no passing game , what would he do in the wac?
I am not saying Colt is not a great player , he is.
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The system argument is bunk. Every QB is in a system. He has to read defenses and make all of the throws just like any other QB.
Regarding the pros, players like Roethlisberger, Pennington, Leftwich, Romo, etc. have shown a good player is a good player, regardless of where they went to school.
Now how many highly touted QBs out of Miami, Florida, Florida State et al. have bombed in the NFL? (Rhetorical question.)
The system argument is not bunk. HI throws the ball 50 times a game no matter what. Tim Tebow would have the same numbers against better teams if FL let him loose.
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My question is this. If Mcfadden can drop 300 yards on the best team in the nation (LSU) with no passing game , what would he do in the wac?
I am not saying Colt is not a great player , he is.
He had 206 against LSU and 321 against South Carolina.
He also had:
151 against Troy
122 against Chattanooga
88 against Mississippi State
61 against Florida International
43 against Auburn
I'm not sure what he would have done in the WAC. Perhaps he would have run for 200 like he did against LSU or 61 like he did against Florida International.
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The system argument is not bunk. HI throws the ball 50 times a game no matter what. Tim Tebow would have the same numbers against better teams if FL let him loose.
So is the "system" argument that Colt has been successful because he has thrown the ball "50 times a game" and therefore had more opportunities? If that's your argument, then consider this:
- He is only 16th in the country in pass attempts.
- He is 3rd in completion percentage at 71.4 percent.
- He is 3rd in TDs with 38 (also has 8 rushing TDs).
- He is 4th in yards at 4174.
- He is 3d in efficiency rating at 166.31.
- He is 1st all-time with 131 career passing TDs and 15 rushing TDs (146 total) in only three years, despite not having played in every game or completed every game.
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Beach , do you think anyone in the wac could compete with LSU or OSU?
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Beach , do you think anyone in the wac could compete with LSU or OSU?
On neutral field, Boise, Hawaii, and Fresno. But why are we comparing the supposed two best teams in the country to the WAC? Why not simply look at the results of WAC teams playing against "BCS" schools:
- Fresno beat Kansas State this year 45-29.
- Fresno lost at Texas A & M 47-45 in three OTs.
- Boise beat Oklahoma 43-42.
- Miami barely beat Nevada in last year's bowl game 21-20.
- UH beat ASU 42-24 last year and in that same year beat Purdue and almost beat Oregon State and Alabama (on the road).
Why not ask whether anyone in the WAC can compete against Baylor, Texas Tech, South Carolina, Northwestern, Iowa State, Stanford, etc.?
Not sure what point you're trying to make, but I'm focused on good players. Pretty clear that McFadden is a great player and I don't discount his stats simply because he laid eggs or was contained by inferior teams. Nor do I trump them up because he plays in a "BCS" conference. I don't discount Kevin Smith's stat's either. He was head and shoulders better than McFadden (and Mike Hart) year.
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Troy Smith owns all you haters' minds!
(http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/061210/061210_smith_vlrg_12p.widec.jpg)
yeah with any luck in a couple years they'll let him take snaps......
and hold for the placekicker !
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They even said last night that Hawaii's passing game is based solely on completions and many of his passes are dump off passes so his numbers make sense. I think that Boise and Hawaii got where they did because of their schedule and Colt is good because of the program set up. Hate me or not, that's what I think. I make the same argument for a guy like Dixon. Put him somewhere else and the guy would be less successful than other running QBs like Vince Young.
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They even said last night that Hawaii's passing game is based solely on completions and many of his passes are dump off passes so his numbers make sense. I think that Boise and Hawaii got where they did because of their schedule and Colt is good because of the program set up. Hate me or not, that's what I think. I make the same argument for a guy like Dixon. Put him somewhere else and the guy would be less successful than other running QBs like Vince Young.
lol . . . Okay cap. . . . Now tell me what offense in America that throws the ball isn't based on completions? I'm not sure who said that, but they obviously don't watch UH play.
Colt averages 8.8 in yards per attempt, which puts him 5th in the country, so it is absolutely not true that many of his passes are "dump off passes." He is always throwing the ball down the field. Did you watch the game last night? He was throwing strikes all over the field. Completed every throw you can make, including 20 in a row, and a 40 yard perfect strike to Jason Rivers for a TD.
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They even said last night that Hawaii's passing game is based solely on completions and many of his passes are dump off passes so his numbers make sense.
as opposed to what ?
a passing game that's based on incompletion's and running the ball ?
the hiesman isn't based on rewarding the best pro prospect,it's based on the best player working within whatever program he's in and playing against whatever schedule the player has to deal with...
Brennan passed all those tests and then some !
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lol . . . Okay cap. . . . Now tell me what offense in America that throws the ball isn't based on completions? I'm not sure who said that, but they obviously don't watch UH play.
Colt averages 8.8 in yards per attempt, which puts him 5th in the country, so it is absolutely not true that many of his passes are "dump off passes." He is always throwing the ball down the field. Did you watch the game last night? He was throwing strikes all over the field. Completed every throw you can make, including 20 in a row, and a 40 yard perfect strike to Jason Rivers for a TD.
The sideline announcer said June Jones looks for completions, which makes sense, but not every strike he makes is deep. Don't take offense to the comments because they're not personal, they're logical based on how most people view Hawaii. You have teams, albeit with losses, that lost to tough teams and are left sitting while Hawaii and Illinois are in big bowl games.
Would you agree about Dixon? I think certain guys only do well in their system because when you see them transition to the pros, they don't do anything special.
Geo: I realize that but this is where the "system" argument comes up because without a significant running game he has to pass and make those completions and they are not all long bombs.
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Geo: I realize that but this is where the "system" argument comes up because without a significant running game he has to pass and make those completions and they are not all long bombs.
I think considering everyone knows Hawaii is gonna throw the ball 50 or 60 times a game makes his passing numbers all that more impressive...
the only thing I really heard the announcer say about june jones and the passing attack is that the recievers and brennan are on the same page when they're looking at the DB's and coverage, and the patterns that brennans recievers run are'nt determined until about a second or two before the snap...
it's an advanced form of sandlot football that has these kids playing in a BCS.......
it dos'nt get much better than that !
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No doubt Brennen is a fantastic player. My only question is how much weight should the level of opponents Hawaii plays count when talking about stats?
I think colt is a exception to the question to an extent. He has all the tools necessary to make him a good pro one day. Touch, pocket awareness. Accuracy etc etc.
Does the level of d he faces add to that? I dont think you can flat out ignore the wac does not provide the defensive talent seen by top qb's in superior conferences.
Honestly I don't know for sure.
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The sideline announcer said June Jones looks for completions, which makes sense, but not every strike he makes is deep. Don't take offense to the comments because they're not personal, they're logical based on how most people view Hawaii. You have teams, albeit with losses, that lost to tough teams and are left sitting while Hawaii and Illinois are in big bowl games.
Would you agree about Dixon? I think certain guys only do well in their system because when you see them transition to the pros, they don't do anything special.
Geo: I realize that but this is where the "system" argument comes up because without a significant running game he has to pass and make those completions and they are not all long bombs.
Dude . . . I am not offended and I'm sorry if I appeared to sound offended. Just talking sports mang. :)
I don't think inaccurate analyses is logical. Any commentator saying Brennan is successful because of "dump offs" is just flat wrong.
I don't believe in "system" players. Is Brady a "system" QB because NE plays the spread and throws the ball about 80 percent of the time? No.
I do believe that there are legitimate issues regarding players who have to do things differently in the pros that they did not do in college. For example, Brennan has taken 99 percent of his snaps out of the shotgun for the past three years, so it is legitimate to question whether or not he will have trouble taking snaps from under center. Same with a defender that hasn't played with his hand on the ground, a running back that hasn't caught passes out of the backfield, a WR who hasn't blocked much, etc.
I think that applies to Dixon as well. I've watched him play and he is very good. Do I think he has a very good arm and excellent mobility because of his "system"? Nope.
And regarding the running game, coming into this season, UH has averaged at least 100 yards rushing a game. I think we're down to about 80 this year, but we had 96 last night.
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I think considering everyone knows Hawaii is gonna throw the ball 50 or 60 times a game makes his passing numbers all that more impressive...
the only thing I really heard the announcer say about june jones and the passing attack is that the recievers and brennan are on the same page when they're looking at the DB's and coverage, and the patterns that brennans recievers run are'nt determined until about a second or two before the snap...
it's an advanced form of sandlot football that has these kids playing in a BCS.......
it dos'nt get much better than that !
Completely agree. Everyone knows we will be throwing the ball and still can't stop it.
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No doubt Brennen is a fantastic player. My only question is how much weight should the level of opponents Hawaii plays count when talking about stats?
I think colt is a exception to the question to an extent. He has all the tools necessary to make him a good pro one day. Touch, pocket awareness. Accuracy etc etc.
Does the level of d he faces add to that? I dont think you can flat out ignore the wac does not provide the defensive talent seen by top qb's in superior conferences.
Honestly I don't know for sure.
I think it's irrelvant. He has done the same thing to "BCS" schools that he has done to Utah State. That's the answer.
Gotta run and watch my Lakers get drubbed . . .
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Dude . . . I am not offended and I'm sorry if I appeared to sound offended. Just talking sports mang. :)
I don't think inaccurate analyses is logical. Any commentator saying Brennan is successful because of "dump offs" is just flat wrong.
I don't believe in "system" players. Is Brady a "system" QB because NE plays the spread and throws the ball about 80 percent of the time? No.
I do believe that there are legitimate issues regarding players who have to do things differently in the pros that they did not do in college. For example, Brennan has taken 99 percent of his snaps out of the shotgun for the past three years, so it is legitimate to question whether or not he will have trouble taking snaps from under center. Same with a defender that hasn't played with his hand on the ground, a running back that hasn't caught passes out of the backfield, a WR who hasn't blocked much, etc.
I think that applies to Dixon as well. I've watched him play and he is very good. Do I think he has a very good arm and excellent mobility because of his "system"? Nope.
And regarding the running game, coming into this season, UH has averaged at least 100 yards rushing a game. I think we're down to about 80 this year, but we had 96 last night.
You make good points. I think the same explain Reggie Bush having moderate success this year in the NFL because he never pounded the rock in the way Lendale White did. I think Colt is good but I will wait and see before I can make definite conclusions about his future success. I'm leaning more towards the Chang route but I could be wrong.
I said the same thing about UH and Oregon. It's easy to know what they can do but nobody stops them and that's why I get pissed watching most of their games. I think in another program Dixon wouldn't be as good. His physical skills are good anywhere but in another program he would likely be different player.
Just to mess with you...Jones believes in system players. See what this crazy football year does to us. ;D
Don't worry BB, I'm not going to turn into 240 on you....or am I??
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You make good points. I think the same explain Reggie Bush having moderate success this year in the NFL because he never pounded the rock in the way Lendale White did. I think Colt is good but I will wait and see before I can make definite conclusions about his future success. I'm leaning more towards the Chang route but I could be wrong.
I said the same thing about UH and Oregon. It's easy to know what they can do but nobody stops them and that's why I get pissed watching most of their games. I think in another program Dixon wouldn't be as good. His physical skills are good anywhere but in another program he would likely be different player.
Just to mess with you...Jones believes in system players. See what this crazy football year does to us. ;D
Don't worry BB, I'm not going to turn into 240 on you....or am I??
lol. No you're not 240. Man I can only handle one man crush on this board. :D
Colt and Timmy are very different, but this horse is about dead. I didn't intend for this to be some Colt Brennan thread. It was created to discuss my decades-long disdain for the Heisman. That's why I mentioned the Smith kid first from Central Florida. It is a crime to leave him out of the discussion.
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lol. No you're not 240. Man I can only handle one man crush on this board. :D
Colt and Timmy are very different, but this horse is about dead. I didn't intend for this to be some Colt Brennan thread. It was created to discuss my decades-long disdain for the Heisman. That's why I mentioned the Smith kid first from Central Florida. It is a crime to leave him out of the discussion.
Well, if I make 8 threads today about you then you know I've lost it and need to log off.
I think you are right about last year's Heisman. If you look at the guy that won and compare him to a Brennan and Johnson, the voting was shit.
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Well, if I make 8 threads today about you then you know I've lost it and need to log off.
I think you are right about last year's Heisman. If you look at the guy that won and compare him to a Brennan and Johnson, the voting was shit.
Yep. As Tre said, Troy Smith wasn't even the best player on his team.
But back to my rant:
I recall last year at the START of the season Beano Cook saying that if Brady Quinn beat USC late in the season he would vote to give the Heisman to him over Troy Smith.
I read that 10 to 15 percent of the Heisman ballots were mailed in BEFORE this weekend's games. That means they voted before seeing Kevin Smith have 39 carries for 284 yards and 4 TDs to help clinch a conference championship.
The whole process stinks.
BTW, June Jones called Tebow a "system QB" yesterday. :D
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Beach I am with you no doubt. Same thing wtih BSU beating Oklahoma last year. THE BCS IS PURE BULLSHIT! We kept up with Oklahoma and beat them. The little guy. Colt has put up great numbers and I wouldn't be suprised to see his WR squad all go by the middle second round. There is no way in fuck a team should have two losses and be eligable for a top 10 spot when you have a undefeated team in the running where they are putting up 600+ yd games. The reason teams like HI and BSU get such a bad rap is because your lil BCS and pac-10 teams are to big of pussies to play us. What would USC or Ohio gain from coming to Boise or Hawaii. If they beat them the nation will just say wow you beat a WAC team. Yet if you lose it will just show that we can compete and make that big top team look like shit. FUCK THE BCS FUCK THE PAC-10, FUCK THE SEC, FUCK THE NCAA. I'm sick of this shit.
Okay I melted a little but these schools need to check if they got anything in their fucking pants other then a big wet dripping snatch. It must be nice to play for the national championship when two WAC teams have been undefeated the last 2 years. :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-[ :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
DONE MELTING!
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Beach I am with you no doubt. Same thing wtih BSU beating Oklahoma last year. THE BCS IS PURE BULLSHIT! We kept up with Oklahoma and beat them. The little guy. Colt has put up great numbers and I wouldn't be suprised to see his WR squad all go by the middle second round. There is no way in fuck a team should have two losses and be eligable for a top 10 spot when you have a undefeated team in the running where they are putting up 600+ yd games. The reason teams like HI and BSU get such a bad rap is because your lil BCS and pac-10 teams are to big of pussies to play us. What would USC or Ohio gain from coming to Boise or Hawaii. If they beat them the nation will just say wow you beat a WAC team. Yet if you lose it will just show that we can compete and make that big top team look like shit. FUCK THE BCS FUCK THE PAC-10, FUCK THE SEC, FUCK THE NCAA. I'm sick of this shit.
Okay I melted a little but these schools need to check if they got anything in their fucking pants other then a big wet dripping snatch. It must be nice to play for the national championship when two WAC teams have been undefeated the last 2 years. :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-[ :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
DONE MELTING!
lol. Tell me how you really feel mang. :D You almost took the words right out of my mouth. ;D
Hey we had 11 players named first team All WAC today. Should have been 12 (Jason Rivers was second team, should have been first). http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Dec/03/br/br2548309176.html
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Look at Brennan game by game stats. Not that impressive. Weakest schedule i've ever seen.
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Beach Bum, what do you think of our Beanie Wells?
a. The best
b. The greatest
c. A god among men
d. All of the above
8)
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Look at Brennan game by game stats. Not that impressive. Weakest schedule i've ever seen.
I thought his stats were great. The schedule may not be that impressive. Doesn't he hold numerous records. Their offense is awesome. And they can't help who they play.
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Kevin Smith of Central Florida has 2448 yards rushing, 29 TDs, 230 yards receiving, and 1 TD. He has ZERO fumbles this year (according to ESPN).
Colt Brennan is 337 for 472 for 4174 yards, 71.4 percent, 38 TDs, 14 INTs, 8 rushing TDs, 166 efficiency rating. That's in about 9 games. Graham Harrell leads the nation with 45 TD passes on 644 attempts (that's 172 MORE than Colt).
It is likely that neither Smith nor Colt will even be invited to New York, much less win. I wonder how some of those voters sleep at night.
Oh . . . and schedule . . . blah blah blah.
I'm going to be pissed if Colt doesn't even get an invite. In the two games I watched (stayed up 'til 3am to watch them come back on Washington), Colt Brennan was brilliant! Can't wait to see who he goes to in the draft next year.
I will say this though. It seems like winning the Heisman is a death wish for an nfl career. Take Troy Smith for example....who's he playing for?? :-\ I could go on and on....take a look at this list and the evidence will speak for itself. If you did a "where are they now, it doesn't look to hot.
YEAR WINNER SCHOOL POSITION
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State QB
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California RB
2004 Matt Leinharrt Southern California QB
2003 Jason White Oklahoma QB
2002 Carson Palmer Southern California QB
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska QB
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State QB
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin RB
1998 Ricky Williams Texas RB
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan DB/WR
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida QB
1995 Eddie George Ohio State RB
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado RB
1993 Charlie Ward Florida State QB
1992 Gino Torretta Miami QB
1991 Desmond Howard Michigan WR
1990 Ty Detmer Brigham Young QB
1989 Andre Ware Houston QB
1988 Barry Sanders Oklahoma State RB
1987 Tim Brown Notre Dame WR
1986 Vinny Testaverde Miami QB
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I'm going to be pissed if Colt doesn't even get an invite. In the two games I watched (stayed up 'til 3am to watch them come back on Washington), Colt Brennan was brilliant! Can't wait to see who he goes to in the draft next year.
I will say this though. It seems like winning the Heisman is a death wish for an nfl career. Take Troy Smith for example....who's he playing for?? :-\ I could go on and on....take a look at this list and the evidence will speak for itself. If you did a "where are they now, it doesn't look to hot.
YEAR WINNER SCHOOL POSITION
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State QB......3rd string for Ravens
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California RB.......awesome RB who had a great Rookie year
2004 Matt Leinharrt Southern California QB......rough start on a shitty team, now injured
2003 Jason White Oklahoma QB
2002 Carson Palmer Southern California QB.....sat the bench and is now a great Cincy QB
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska QB
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State QB
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin RB
1998 Ricky Williams Texas RB
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan DB...starting CB for Green Bay, stats are good
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida QB
1995 Eddie George Ohio State RB
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado RB
1993 Charlie Ward Florida State QB
1992 Gino Torretta Miami QB
1991 Desmond Howard Michigan WR
1990 Ty Detmer Brigham Young QB
1989 Andre Ware Houston QB
1988 Barry Sanders Oklahoma State RB....awesome career
1987 Tim Brown Notre Dame WR...awesome career
1986 Vinny Testaverde Miami QB..." "
Hardly a bad award and indicative of future failure. Many of these guys had great careers. Troy Smith is the biggest bust of all. I just don't see Colt as a great NFL QB but if he wins this award it would follow your line of thinking.
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Look at Brennan game by game stats. Not that impressive. Weakest schedule i've ever seen.
O Rly? Ask and ye shall receive:
34-40, 416, 4 TDs, 1 INT, 1 rushing TD
43-61, 548, 4 TDs, 1 INT
26-32, 298, 2 TDS, 0 INTs, 3 rushing TDs
30-49, 369, 3 TDs, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD
19-25, 219 1 TD, 0 INTs
44-75, 545, 4 TDs, 4 INTs, 1 rushing TD
29-46, 425, 6 TDs, 1 INT
28-39, 396, 2 TDs, 1 INT, 1 rushing TD
40-53, 495 5 TDs, 2 INTs, 1 rushing TD
42-50, 442, 5 TDs, 0 INTs
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I'm going to be pissed if Colt doesn't even get an invite. In the two games I watched (stayed up 'til 3am to watch them come back on Washington), Colt Brennan was brilliant! Can't wait to see who he goes to in the draft next year.
I will say this though. It seems like winning the Heisman is a death wish for an nfl career. Take Troy Smith for example....who's he playing for?? :-\ I could go on and on....take a look at this list and the evidence will speak for itself. If you did a "where are they now, it doesn't look to hot.
YEAR WINNER SCHOOL POSITION
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State QB
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California RB
2004 Matt Leinharrt Southern California QB
2003 Jason White Oklahoma QB
2002 Carson Palmer Southern California QB
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska QB
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State QB
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin RB
1998 Ricky Williams Texas RB
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan DB/WR
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida QB
1995 Eddie George Ohio State RB
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado RB
1993 Charlie Ward Florida State QB
1992 Gino Torretta Miami QB
1991 Desmond Howard Michigan WR
1990 Ty Detmer Brigham Young QB
1989 Andre Ware Houston QB
1988 Barry Sanders Oklahoma State RB
1987 Tim Brown Notre Dame WR
1986 Vinny Testaverde Miami QB
Glad you got to watch him play. There will always be drones who form opinions without looking at the film, but almost everyone who actually watches him play comes away with the same opinion.
And thank you for enhancing this thread. Jason White. Eric Crouch. Weinke. Wuerffel. Just a cryin' shame. My kids could do a better job picking the best player in the country.
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And thank you for enhancing this thread. Jason White. Eric Crouch. Weinke. Wuerffel. Just a cryin' shame. My kids could do a better job picking the best player in the country.
I believe all those guys won National Championships.
Heisman means best "College" player. Not pros. Desmond Howard was unstoppable at Michigan and was mediocre at best in the pros. He still deserved it.
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I believe all those guys won National Championships.
Heisman means best "College" player. Not pros. Desmond Howard was unstoppable at Michigan and was mediocre at best in the pros. He still deserved it.
It is supposed to go to the best player in college football. It rarely does, as the list of Heisman winners show. Just look at this year. The best running back in the country (Kevin Smith of Central Florida) isn't even a finalist.
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It is supposed to go to the best player in college football. It rarely does, as the list of Heisman winners show. Just look at this year. The best running back in the country (Kevin Smith of Central Florida) isn't even a finalist.
Who did they play this year? You have to have exposure and play some kind of schedule.
If it was up to you we would have nothing but mid-major players who played a bunch of nobodies and ran up their stats.
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Beach Bum, what do you think of our Beanie Wells?
a. The best
b. The greatest
c. A god among men
d. All of the above
8)
e. Who is Beanie Wells?
I'll take "e." :)
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Who did they play this year? You have to have exposure and play some kind of schedule.
If it was up to you we would have nothing but mid-major players who played a bunch of nobodies and ran up their stats.
I don't buy the schedule argument. These are all division I-A scholarship players. The fact is Kevin Smith is on the verge of rushing for more yards in a season than any player in history. He is about to pass Barry Sanders, who was the greatest college football player I've ever seen. The fact he isn't even a Doalk Walker award finalist and Mike Hart, who finished somewhere around 24th in the country in rushing is, just shows how absurd some of these awards are. How they can leave him out of the discussion for the Heisman is beyond me.
The schedule isn't part of the Heisman criteria. It's supposed to be performance on the field, regardless of opponent.
If it was up to me, the best player in the country would get the award every year. That simply doesn't happen currently. Are you going to seriously tell me that Troy Smith was the best player in college football last year?
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e. Who is Beanie Wells?
I'll take "e." :)
Solid proof that you don't know as much as you claim to know when you talk about college football (same goes for when you talk about evolution, I guess ;) )
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Solid proof that you don't know as much as you claim to know when you talk about college football (same goes for when you talk about evolution, I guess ;) )
Oh brother. What are you talking about? How much did I "claim to know"?
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I don't buy the schedule argument. These are all division I-A scholarship players. The fact is Kevin Smith is on the verge of rushing for more yards in a season than any player in history. He is about to pass Barry Sanders, who was the greatest college football player I've ever seen. The fact he isn't even a Doalk Walker award finalist and Mike Hart, who finished somewhere around 24th in the country in rushing is, just shows how absurd some of these awards are. How they can leave him out of the discussion for the Heisman is beyond me.
The schedule isn't part of the Heisman criteria. It's supposed to be performance on the field, regardless of opponent.
If it was up to me, the best player in the country would get the award every year. That simply doesn't happen currently. Are you going to seriously tell me that Troy Smith was the best player in college football last year?
How do you know he is the "best" player in football if he hasn't played a tough schedule? I can run all over a pop warner team. It doesn't mean I'm the next Jim Brown.
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How do you know he is the "best" player in football if he hasn't played a tough schedule? I can run all over a pop warner team. It doesn't mean I'm the next Jim Brown.
Because he performed better than any other running back in the history of college football except Barry Sanders (so far).
There are no pop warner teams in Division I-A football. A good football player is a good football player. The schedule argument is a coput for people who don't want to confront stats and game film.
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Because he performed better than any other running back in the history of college football except Barry Sanders (so far).
There are no pop warner teams in Division I-A football. A good football player is a good football player. The schedule argument is a coput for people who don't want to confront stats and game film.
Are you kidding me? There are terrible D1 schools. The schedule argument is not good enough for you because your favorite team played a cupcake schedule.
If HI would have played 10 top 25 teams and had two losses, you would be whining that they should be in the BCS Championship game because they played so many good teams.
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Are you kidding me? There are terrible D1 schools. The schedule argument is not good enough for you because your favorite team played a cupcake schedule.
If HI would have played 10 top 25 teams and had two losses, you would be whining that they should be in the BCS Championship game because they played so many good teams.
Lets look at it like this... USC doesn't play a very tough schedule and lost to Washington, who someone was saying HI barely got by... Also didn't Michigan lose to Apalachain st. How many other teams lost there top 10 rankning by losing to a team that wasn't even ranked???? Schedule is a bullshit exscuse. I agree with beach 100%. Let me guess your team must be LSU or soemthing? or is it OHIO???
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Lets look at it like this... USC doesn't play a very tough schedule and lost to Washington, who someone was saying HI barely got by... Also didn't Michigan lose to Apalachain st. How many other teams lost there top 10 rankning by losing to a team that wasn't even ranked???? Schedule is a bullshit exscuse. I agree with beach 100%. Let me guess your team must be LSU or soemthing? or is it OHIO???
Yes, they did 8)
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Are you kidding me? There are terrible D1 schools. The schedule argument is not good enough for you because your favorite team played a cupcake schedule.
If HI would have played 10 top 25 teams and had two losses, you would be whining that they should be in the BCS Championship game because they played so many good teams.
Nice try Cartel. Don't make stuff up to try and prove a point.
1. I didn't say there were no bad teams in Division I-A. Of course there are. I said there are no "pop warner" teams.
2. As I indicated earlier in this thread, I have been down on the Heisman since 1992. The schedule argument made no sense then, because Marshall Faulk was clearly better than Gino Torretta, and it wasn't even close. It makes no sense today.
3. No, a team with 2 wins does not deserve to be in the "BCS." That's a dumb argument.
It was a crime to leave Kevin Smith (2448 yards rushing, 29 TDs), Matt Forte (2127 yards rushing, 23 TDs), and Michael Crabtree (125 receptions, 1861 yards, 21 TDs) out of the discussion.
So tell me Cartel, which schools out of the 119 Division I-A programs should have players eligible for the Heisman? All of them? Some of them? Only "BCS" schools?
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Lets look at it like this... USC doesn't play a very tough schedule and lost to Washington, who someone was saying HI barely got by... Also didn't Michigan lose to Apalachain st. How many other teams lost there top 10 rankning by losing to a team that wasn't even ranked???? Schedule is a bullshit exscuse. I agree with beach 100%. Let me guess your team must be LSU or soemthing? or is it OHIO???
Yep. I'd clarify that USC beat Washington by 3, but lost to Stanford.
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Yep. I'd clarify that USC beat Washington by 3, but lost to Stanford.
Okay who cares point still remains HI deserved to be in a better bowl then USC or anyone with 2 losses.
P.S. I hate USC
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Lets look at it like this... USC doesn't play a very tough schedule and lost to Washington, who someone was saying HI barely got by... Also didn't Michigan lose to Apalachain st. How many other teams lost there top 10 rankning by losing to a team that wasn't even ranked???? Schedule is a bullshit exscuse. I agree with beach 100%. Let me guess your team must be LSU or soemthing? or is it OHIO???
Actually I'm a Florida State fan. And of course you agree with Beach because Boise State plays the same cupcakes HI does.
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3. No, a team with 2 wins does not deserve to be in the "BCS." That's a dumb argument.
I said 2 LOSSES.
It was a crime to leave Kevin Smith (2448 yards rushing, 29 TDs), Matt Forte (2127 yards rushing, 23 TDs), and Michael Crabtree (125 receptions, 1861 yards, 21 TDs) out of the discussion.
So tell me Cartel, which schools out of the 119 Division I-A programs should have players eligible for the Heisman? All of them? Some of them? Only "BCS" schools?
Why do you keep putting out offensive players? Why not invite some Defensive players. A lot of the time they are the best players in College.
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Actually I'm a Florida State fan. And of course you agree with Beach because Boise State plays the same cupcakes HI does.
::) Yes, Oklahoma sure is a cupcake.
So is Alabama, Purdue, Oregon, Arizona State, and Michigan State.
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I said 2 LOSSES.
Why do you keep putting out offensive players? Why not invite some Defensive players. A lot of the time they are the best players in College.
O.K. My bad. Two losses. I wasn't even talking about the BCS anyway. That system is a joke. There should a playoff like every other sport at every other level. All conference winners, plus a few at-large teams for independents. Pretty simple.
I agree defensive players should be included in the discussion.
But you didn't respond to my questions: "which schools out of the 119 Division I-A programs should have players eligible for the Heisman? All of them? Some of them? Only 'BCS' schools?"
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::) Yes, Oklahoma sure is a cupcake.
So is Alabama, Purdue, Oregon, Arizona State, and Michigan State.
I have to say Fresno is a tough team every year.. There stadium is one of the hardest to play in...
Plus I guess BSU showed everyone last year why the BCS system sucks DICK. According to the Nation we shouldn't have been able to compete.. I wish we could get FSU and other teams up here to play. I don't question how good of a game it would be. it's not the little schools that are turning down the chance to play. It's the big guys that are to worried they might get trashed and they tuck tail.... I am sure HI and BSU would love to have tougher schedules yet we can't get anyone to show up....
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It is supposed to go to the best player in college football. It rarely does, as the list of Heisman winners show. Just look at this year. The best running back in the country (Kevin Smith of Central Florida) isn't even a finalist.
LOL what kind of numbers would Mike Hart or Darren McFadden or about a dozen other RB's put up in the same situation.
for the last time...he's not the best RB in college. you can say he put up the best numbers, but he put them up against weaker competition week in and week out
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LOL what kind of numbers would Mike Hart or Darren McFadden or about a dozen other RB's put up in the same situation.
for the last time...he's not the best RB in college. you can say he put up the best numbers, but he put them up against weaker competition week in and week out
Oh please. If the Heisman is supposed to go the player with most outstanding season that was not McFadden. Smith was clearly the best RB in the country this year. Here are their respective game-by-game comparisons (rushing only):
McFadden:
Troy - 24 for 151, 1 TD
Alabama - 33 for 195, 2 TDs
Kentucky - 29 for 173, 1 TD
North Texas - 29 for 173, 1 TD
Chattanooga - 25 for 122, 1 TD
Auburn, 17 for 43, 0 TDs
Mississippi - 22 for 110, 0 TDs
Florida International - 19 for 61, 4 TDs
South Carolina - 34 for 321, 1 TD
Tennessee - 22 for 117, 0 TDs
Mississippi State - 28 for 88, 0 TDs,
LSU - 32 for 206, 3 TDs
Smith:
North Carolina State - 35 for 217, 2 TDs
Texas - 27 for 149, 2 TDs
Memphis - 22 for 124, 3 TDs
Louisiana-Lafayette, 33 for 223, 3 TDs
East Carolina - 29 for 147, 1 TD
South Florida - 18 for 55, 0 TDs
Tulsa - 33 for 170, 3 TDs
Southern Miss - 43 for 175, 2 TDs
Marshall - 29 for 188, 2 TDs
UAB - 41 for 320, 4 TDs
Southern Methodist - 20 for 177, 2 TDs
UTEP - 46 for 219, 1 TD
Tulsa - 39 for 284, 4 TDs
That last game by Smith was for the conference championship.
Both had some tough games, both played some soft teams.
And he didn't just put up the best numbers. He rushed for more yards than any player in college football history except Barry Sanders and will likely pass Barry after the bowl game.
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O.K. My bad. Two losses. I wasn't even talking about the BCS anyway. That system is a joke. There should a playoff like every other sport at every other level. All conference winners, plus a few at-large teams for independents. Pretty simple.
I agree defensive players should be included in the discussion.
But you didn't respond to my questions: "which schools out of the 119 Division I-A programs should have players eligible for the Heisman? All of them? Some of them? Only 'BCS' schools?"
To be honest with you they should all be eligible. I'm just saying strength of schedule should be taken into account.
And I agree there should be a playoff system and the Heisman should be awarded after the Championship game.
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To be honest with you they should all be eligible. I'm just saying strength of schedule should be taken into account.
And I agree there should be a playoff system and the Heisman should be awarded after the Championship game.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the schedule. It's too subjective IMO. But we do agree about a playoff system and when the Heisman should be awarded.
Also, I wish they wouldn't let sports writers who have never strapped on the pads have a vote.
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We'll have to agree to disagree on the schedule. It's too subjective IMO. But we do agree about a playoff system and when the Heisman should be awarded.
Also, I wish they wouldn't let sports writers who have never strapped on the pads have a vote.
Thats murky waters my friend. Should people who have never been president of the United States not be allowed to write about , vote or comment on the president?
I agree about the playoff system though!
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Thats murky waters my friend. Should people who have never been president of the United States not be allowed to write about , vote or comment on the president?
I agree about the playoff system though!
Body - given that there have only been 42 people who have served as president of the United States, and there are well over 100 million voters each election, I'd say that isn't a very good hypothetical.
I don't like the fact that some fat sports writer from L.A. who may have never played the game gets to decide on whether a player from Alabama is the best player in the country without ever having watched the kid play. That's really my point. I'd like to see the voting restricted to all former Heisman winners, former players, and coaches. You don't have to be a former player to analyze the game and/or player performance, but it does give you a lot more credibility.