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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on March 14, 2008, 10:30:27 AM
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Good grief. And this is the man's spiritual advisor?? :-\
Obama’s Spiritual Adviser Questioned U.S. Role in Spread of HIV, Sept. 11 Attacks
by FOXNews.com
Friday, March 14, 2008
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., and the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., senior pastor, Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, March 2005. (Trinity United Church of Christ/Religion News Service)
Barack Obama’s longtime pastor once questioned America’s role in the spread of the AIDS virus and suggested that the United States bore some responsibility for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
(http://elections.foxnews.com/files/2008/03/obama_wright.jpg)
Confronted with the content of some of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.’s sermons, parts of which have been aired this week on FOX News, the Obama campaign continues to pull away from the pastor’s rhetoric, but is stopping short of a full repudiation.
Wright has retired as leader of Trinity United Church in Chicago; he delivered his last sermon there in February. Obama has attended the church for 20 years and calls Wright his spiritual adviser.
Wright’s supporters say his Afro-centric sermons accurately portray black America and contend his sermons are widely studied by theologians. But critics are now calling attention to some of his words from the pulpit.
In DVD copies of his sermons available for purchase, Wright can be seen questioning America’s role in the spreading of the HIV virus that leads to AIDS. In another speech, made in the days after 9/11, he suggested that American foreign policy invited the terror attacks.
“We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye,” Wright said.
“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”
The pastor also said: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”
Late Thursday, the Obama campaign said it has distanced itself from certain comments made by the pastor. But it did not fully repudiate Wright himself — as some critics have called for.
“Senator Obama has said before that he profoundly disagrees with some of the statements and positions of Reverend Wright, who has preached his last sermon as pastor at the church,” Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton said. “Senator Obama deplores divisive statements whether they come from his supporters, the supporters of his opponent, talk radio, or anywhere else.”
Last year, Obama rescinded an invitation to Wright to deliver the invocation at his presidential announcement. He also issued a statement saying personal attacks have no place in politics after Wright delivered an attack on Hillary Clinton and former President Bill Clinton.
But Obama’s longtime relationship with Wright is continuing to spark controversy.
“This is not just someone that Barack Obama has a casual relationship with,” said Tom Bevan, executive editor of RealClearPolitics.com. He noted that Wright married Barack and Michelle Obama, and Wright’s words were the inspiration for the title of Obama’s book, “The Audacity of Hope.”
“Barack Obama has not out and out distanced himself from all of these comments … ,” said Patricia Murphy, editor of CitizenJanePolitics.com. “It’s unclear if he rejects all of these statements. I would assume that he does, but I think he is going to be pushed where he needs to come out and fully explain his relationship with his pastor.”
Some of Wright’s statements have raised eyebrows at a time the Internal Revenue Service is scrutinizing tax-exempt religious organizations for alleged violations of rules barring them from participating in political campaigns.
Prior to his retirement last month, Wright delivered commentary from the pulpit in which he praised Obama, as well as remarks focusing on the racial divide between Obama and Clinton.
“There is a man here who can take this country in a new direction,” Wright said during his Jan. 13 sermon.
During a Christmas sermon, Wright tried to compare Obama’s upbringing to Jesus at the hands of the Romans.
“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people,” Wright said. “Hillary would never know that.
“Hillary ain’t never been called a black. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”
In a Jan. 13 sermon, Wright said:
“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”
So far the Clinton campaign has been quiet over Wright’s comments.
Wright has declined interview requests from FOX News.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/obamas-spiritual-adviser-questioned-us-role-in-spread-of-hiv-sept-11-attacks/
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“We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye,” Wright said.
“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, ...”
These are factual statements
"...and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost."
This conclusion is consistent with the Blowback theory offered by members of the CIA.
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Is this a factual statement?
The pastor also said: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”
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Is this a factual statement?
The pastor also said: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”
I don't know. Do you know for sure?
The blacks had the Tuskegee experiments done on them by our government. I'll cut them some slack when it comes to a few paranoid beliefs.
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Bitter old BB, can't wait to cast stones.
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I don't know. Do you know for sure?
The blacks had the Tuskegee experiments done on them by our government. I'll cut them some slack when it comes to a few paranoid beliefs.
Oh come on. I don't know for certain if the government invented cancer in a lab as a means of exterminating all Asian people either. Afterall, we did put Japanese Americans in concentration camps and signed the Gentlemen's Agreement to preclude Asian immigrants.
You don't have to be concerned about the fact Obama's spiritual advisor has some kooky beliefs, but I am. I haven't read up on the guy, but he has apparently made a number of pretty bizarre comments.
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In defense of all the candidates, let's just face reality.
It's really hard (probaby impossible) to find a well known Christian Pastor who's NOT a bit kooky. It just kind of goes with the territory. Just look at the nutbags that McCain has to get cozy with just to appease the religious right. It's really kind of sad.
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Oh come on. I don't know for certain if the government invented cancer in a lab as a means of exterminating all Asian people either. Afterall, we did put Japanese Americans in concentration camps and signed the Gentlemen's Agreement to preclude Asian immigrants.
You don't have to be concerned about the fact Obama's spiritual advisor has some kooky beliefs, but I am. I haven't read up on the guy, but he has apparently made a number of pretty bizarre comments.
Until Obama adopts those views, I won't be concerned.
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I don't know. Do you know for sure?
The blacks had the Tuskegee experiments done on them by our government. I'll cut them some slack when it comes to a few paranoid beliefs.
Oh for Gods sake Decker stop with the lawyer mumbo jumbo and use some common freaking sense >:(
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/obamas-spiritual-adviser-questioned-us-role-in-spread-of-hiv-sept-11-attacks/
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This pastor is a nut job.
If you hear some of his sermons, sounds like he hates America. Not close to mainstream. The fact that this is Obama's church and this idiot is a close friend and campaign supporter must raise eyebrows.
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This pastor is a nut job.
If you hear some of his sermons, sounds like he hates America. Not close to mainstream. The fact that this is Obama's church and this idiot is a close friend and campaign supporter must raise eyebrows.
Exactly. Is this really someone we want advising the president?
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For christ sake, you guys are defending this radical's statements?
This guy is speaking in 2008, not 1945! Please have the sense to denounce what this guy is preaching.
How any of this is reasonable in a Christian/Baptist church preaching to hundreds (or more), is beyond me.
Sounds like this pastor is on the fringe, according to other baptist pastors that have recently been interviewed.
Recognizing the faults of the past do not make it reasonable to spew this garbage today!
I imagine Obama does not share all this pastor's radical views but it is still concerning that he is a friend and advisor. Obama should be distancing himself from this guy if he wants to keep mainstream America.
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McCain spiritual advisors are no less kooky
All of these guys are wacko
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Oh for Gods sake Decker stop with the lawyer mumbo jumbo and use some common freaking sense >:(
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/obamas-spiritual-adviser-questioned-us-role-in-spread-of-hiv-sept-11-attacks/
Here's your common freaking sense: We live in a free country. That guy can think and say what he wants.
Did Obama parrot those controversial ideas? No.
So relax.
And as Straw Man pointed out, look at some of the lunatic rantings of the preachers supporting McCain before you start casting stones at your political opponents.
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plz post some of those here for the rest of us Decker
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plz post some of those here for the rest of us Decker
Sure, no problem. I won't even throw in the Falwell quotes.
“Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews.” - Jerusalem Countdown (revised edition, 2007, p. 114)
"Anyone who makes the life of Jewish people difficult or grievous, as did the Pharaoh, as did Hitler, will be cursed by God." - keynote address to AIPAC, (March 12, 2007)
"If you live your life and don't confess your sins to God Almighty through the authority of Christ and His blood, I'm going to say this very plainly, you're going straight to hell with a nonstop ticket." October, 2006[3]
"All hurricanes are acts of God because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that." [29].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee#Quotes
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Here's your common freaking sense: We live in a free country. That guy can think and say what he wants.
Did Obama parrot those controversial ideas? No.
So relax.
Thats not what I'm saying, he or his wife don't have to say it. Obama can denounce what his "spiritual advisor" said all day long, it's not going to change a thing. They have been apart of that church for 20 + years, your going to sit there and tell me he had no idea of what his "pastor" believed? Alot of what he said was right after 9/11.........Obama and his wife fully where this man stood.
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Sure, no problem. I won't even throw in the Falwell quotes.
“Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews.” - Jerusalem Countdown (revised edition, 2007, p. 114)
"Anyone who makes the life of Jewish people difficult or grievous, as did the Pharaoh, as did Hitler, will be cursed by God." - keynote address to AIPAC, (March 12, 2007)
"If you live your life and don't confess your sins to God Almighty through the authority of Christ and His blood, I'm going to say this very plainly, you're going straight to hell with a nonstop ticket." October, 2006[3]
"All hurricanes are acts of God because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that." [29].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee#Quotes
I don't think anyone asked him for his advice before they ran for President.
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Thats not what I'm saying, he or his wife don't have to say it. Obama can denounce what his "spiritual advisor" said all day long, it's not going to change a thing. They have been apart of that church for 20 + years, your going to sit there and tell me he had no idea of what his "pastor" believed? Alot of what he said was right after 9/11.........Obama and his wife fully where this man stood.
Hahahaha..... who cares? He's still going to be president, and you're going to like it.
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What I want to know is when these two dunderheads are going to stop slinging mud and at least talk about an issue :(
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Hahahaha..... who cares? He's still going to be president, and you're going to like it.
You're still on this board (site), why? You haven't contributed anything to any board exept insults.....I think I hear your mom calling you for dinner...run along now!
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Here's your common freaking sense: We live in a free country. That guy can think and say what he wants.
Did Obama parrot those controversial ideas? No.
So relax.
And as Straw Man pointed out, look at some of the lunatic rantings of the preachers supporting McCain before you start casting stones at your political opponents.
McCain has a spiritual advisor? Who?
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McCain has a spiritual advisor? Who?
Yes....we call him God ;)
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Yes....we call him God ;)
Good answer. :)
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::)
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That's about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read.
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That's about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read.
There's no need to be cruel. Coach tries hard.
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McCain has a spiritual advisor? Who?
John Hagee and Rod Parsley - though I doubt they are any more a true spiritual adviser than than the kook who supports Obama
What they all have in common is that they are all nutbag Christians, they've all endorsed their chosen candidate (as if anyone cares) and they've all forced their respective candidates to have to renounce/reject them.
I say - WHO THE FUCK CARES about any of them.
Our economy is facing it's worst crisis in 90 years and it looks like President Bombs Alot is gearing up to attack Iran and we're having a pissing contest over who's CHRISTIAN preacher is more nutty??
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John Hagee and Rod Parsley - though I doubt they are any more a true spiritual adviser than than the kook who supports Obama
What they all have in common is that they are all nutbag Christians, they've all endorsed their chosen candidate (as if anyone cares) and they've all forced their respective candidates to have to renounce/reject them.
I say - WHO THE FUCK CARES about any of them.
Our economy is facing it's worst crisis in 90 years and it looks like President Bombs Alot is gearing up to attack Iran and we're having a pissing contest over who's CHRISTIAN leader is more nutty??
Welcome to The Surreal Life
Starring
Joe "Bilbo Baggins" Marino
BB
& "former" grade school bully, Colossus
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John Hagee and Rod Parsley - though I doubt they are any more a true spiritual adviser than than the kook who supports Obama
What they all have in common is that they are all nutbag Christians, they've all endorsed their chosen candidate (as if anyone cares) and they've all forced their respective candidates to have to renounce/reject them.
I say - WHO THE FUCK CARES about any of them.
Our economy is facing it's worst crisis in 90 years and it looks like President Bombs Alot is gearing up to attack Iran and we're having a pissing contest over who's CHRISTIAN preacher is more nutty??
On what basis do you conclude that John Hagee and Rod Parsley are McCain's spiritual advisors?
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On what basis do you conclude that John Hagee and Rod Parsley are McCain's spiritual advisors?
I didn't say they were.
They are ALL just nutty Christians who have endorsed a candidate and been portrayed in the media as having some nebulous advisor status.
I think they are ALL Idiots
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Oh come on. I don't know for certain if the government invented cancer in a lab as a means of exterminating all Asian people either. Afterall, we did put Japanese Americans in concentration camps and signed the Gentlemen's Agreement to preclude Asian immigrants.
You don't have to be concerned about the fact Obama's spiritual advisor has some kooky beliefs, but I am. I haven't read up on the guy, but he has apparently made a number of pretty bizarre comments.
The irony...the brutal, brutal irony...
Beach Bum, you are a religious nutcase who believes in ancient Sumerian mythology as fact...and yet you are worried about some guy's kooky beliefs....all I can say is talking snake and magic apples... ::)
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The irony...the brutal, brutal irony...
Beach Bum, you are a religious nutcase who believes in ancient Sumerian mythology as fact...and yet you are worried about some guy's kooky beliefs....all I can say is talking snake and magic apples... ::)
Says the paranoid anti-religious extremist. I'm starting to think you are a former alter boy . . . .
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Says the paranoid anti-religious extremist. I'm starting to think you are a former alter boy . . . .
what's an alter boy?
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Oh come on. I don't know for certain if the government invented cancer in a lab as a means of exterminating all Asian people either. Afterall, we did put Japanese Americans in concentration camps and signed the Gentlemen's Agreement to preclude Asian immigrants.
You don't have to be concerned about the fact Obama's spiritual advisor has some kooky beliefs, but I am. I haven't read up on the guy, but he has apparently made a number of pretty bizarre comments.
I'm not concerned. There's no reason to be. Obama will distance himself from him in the spirit of good politics. Just anyone law abiding politician would. :)
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what's an alter boy?
A namba poster model.
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I'm not concerned. There's no reason to be. Obama will distance himself from him in the spirit of good politics. Just anyone law abiding politician would. :)
I don't like the fact he has apparently had this guy in his ear for years.
But I agree he has to distance himself from that guy if he wants to be elected.
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I don't like the fact he has apparently had this guy in his ear for years.
But I agree he has to distance himself from that guy if he wants to be elected.
Even though i don't agree with many things other people say there are things i take from those same people i do agree with. A person who i used to work for until just recently was a staunch conservative. I learned a great deal from him even though he had some views that could be considered borderline racist.
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A namba poster model.
Doh! :D
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Even though i don't agree with many things other people say there are things i take from those same people i do agree with. A person who i used to work for until just recently was a staunch conservative. I learned a great deal from him even though he had some views that could be considered borderline racist.
Was he your spiritual advisor? :)
I just had this conversation the other day. You don't have to agree with the views of everyone you associate with. In fact, I think it's healthy to expose yourself to opposing/varying viewpoints.
That's a little different from an advisor though.
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Says the paranoid anti-religious extremist. I'm starting to think you are a former alter boy . . . .
No, life long atheist here. Never had any gods in my life except for the D&D ones my characters worshipped.
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Was he your spiritual advisor? :)
I just had this conversation the other day. You don't have to agree with the views of everyone you associate with. In fact, I think it's healthy to expose yourself to opposing/varying viewpoints.
That's a little different from an advisor though.
Yes and no. Those are that spiritual advisor's personal opinions about government and the reason for things, NOT about God.
My friend's views on business were insightful and wise. His views on racial issues were not.
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what's an alter boy?
ROFL. BB's just going to do his patented "I'm going to ignore this and hope people don't notice I'm a dumbass" move on you.
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Yes and no. Those are that spiritual advisor's personal opinions about government and the reason for things, NOT about God.
My friend's views on business were insightful and wise. His views on racial issues were not.
Did he have bizarre views on race? That's the distinction. There is a difference between someone having an opposing viewpoint and someone talking like a lunatic. Just read in another thread that this guy was comparing Obama to Jesus Christ? Whaaat.
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Did he have bizarre views on race? That's the distinction. There is a difference between someone having an opposing viewpoint and someone talking like a lunatic. Just read in another thread that this guy was comparing Obama to Jesus Christ? Whaaat.
I'll check the thread out. But IMO, racism is illogical and is no different than bizarre. Regardless, the man is one hell of a mentor when it comes to business but not when it comes to other things. Perhaps the same is with the advisor. Who knows.
Further more what vever he blames the plight of some people on doesn't connect to his relationship with Jesus and his salvation. In the end that's all it's about isn't?
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I'll check the thread out. But IMO, racism is illogical and is no different than bizarre. Regardless, the man is one hell of a mentor when it comes to business but not when it comes to other things. Perhaps the same is with the advisor. Who knows.
Further more what vever he blames the plight of some people on doesn't connect to his relationship with Jesus and his salvation. In the end that's all it's about isn't?
It's all about judgment. If someone makes truly bizarre statements, particularly in public, and has irrational views, that calls into question all of the advice they might give.
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It's all about judgment. If someone makes truly bizarre statements, particularly in public, and has irrational views, that calls into question all of the advice they might give.
I see your point. But in matters of faith and salvation as i understand them and have been through them, they are apples and oranges. This is just a man's opinion be it extreme and not too much different from what i've heard other people say that i've come in contact with at one time or another. Bottom line, a true Christian only needs the bible for the ultimate authority on guidance. He fellowships at this church and sits in sermons. This reverend or pastor or w/e gets on the pulpit and expresses his views. They talk, and i'm sure Obama wouldn't have gotten as far as he has in politics if he shared the same views.
Spiritual advisor is about your relationship with God, not politics, and i'm sure Obama or McCain would know the difference.
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In my mind this is no big deal, It won't stop me from voting for Obama because McCain in my mind is no better and looks like a puppet.
BUT,
This makes Obama look like he's connected to the likes of Sharpton and Co. This is something that could turn out to help Hilary.
Still not 100% sure who i'll vote for anyway.
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ROFL. BB's just going to do his patented "I'm going to ignore this and hope people don't notice I'm a dumbass" move on you.
well it's only a typo and I've certainly made my share.
just kind of funny
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I'd like to throw this out there as well, more nutty pastors making kooky remarks: From the late Pastor Kennedy(RIP)...."If you vote Democrat, you are going to be condemned to hell". Or perhaps the late Jerry Falwell's assertion that one of the Teletubbies was sending a pro-gay messege to children and was, in fact, gay. Like the Poverty Pimps Jackson and Sharpton, such remarks should be shrugged off and not to be taken seriously by any rational person. Unfortunately, with public education in such a laughable mess and with the IQ seemingly dropping every year, such populist, claims of victimhood, and entitlement lines of thought become ever more prevalent and popular.
Yes, the US Government has committed past atrocities towards its people(and definately not solely towards blacks). But US blacks have it pretty damn good in this nation, at least in comparison to their kin in other parts of the world. If they were classified as a Nation, they'd have the 16th largest economy. They have access to opportunities that in past times would be seen as unprecedented.
Jesse Jackson DID have this one right: "Blacks' Salvation does not go through Whites."
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From the late Pastor Kennedy(RIP)...."If you vote Democrat, you are going to be condemned to hell".
coach made a post that was very similar to that, a few months back.
Please explain.......it's my belief that Liberals cannot be true Christians, make it quick, I have a feeling this thread will be moved real quick with your post and my response!
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It's statements like the two above that make me think this religion either drives people to mental illness or attracts those people who already are.
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This conclusion is consistent with the Blowback theory offered by members of the CIA.
LMAO, Blowback theory members of the CIA. You mean one retired member of the CIA, who coined a term to be used in describing past deeds gone array. Chalmers Johnson, not much of a author or war hero so his coined term is shit stained.
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I see your point. But in matters of faith and salvation as i understand them and have been through them, they are apples and oranges. This is just a man's opinion be it extreme and not too much different from what i've heard other people say that i've come in contact with at one time or another. Bottom line, a true Christian only needs the bible for the ultimate authority on guidance. He fellowships at this church and sits in sermons. This reverend or pastor or w/e gets on the pulpit and expresses his views. They talk, and i'm sure Obama wouldn't have gotten as far as he has in politics if he shared the same views.
Spiritual advisor is about your relationship with God, not politics, and i'm sure Obama or McCain would know the difference.
I hear you. I'm not really concerned about what type of advisor he is. It's the kind of judgment exercised by both men. The issue (for me) becomes if Obama is willing to have someone with views like this in his hear on spiritual matters, what other kinds of advisors will he surround himself with? And in what other instances will he exercise poor judgment?
I like the fact he fired the guy, but he only did so after being outed. He is showing himself to be quite the politician, as others have noted:
Ari Fleischer, former press secretary for President Bush, suggested that the controversy and the timing of Obama’s disavowal show him to be little more than a shrewd politician.
“I think there’s a reason Republicans I talk to are increasingly looking forward to running against Barack Obama,” Fleischer said.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/15/fallout-from-pastors-sermons-unknown-as-obama-attempts-damage-control/
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I hear you. I'm not really concerned about what type of advisor he is. It's the kind of judgment exercised by both men. The issue (for me) becomes if Obama is willing to have someone with views like this in his hear on spiritual matters, what other kinds of advisors will he surround himself with? And in what other instances will he exercise poor judgment?
I like the fact he fired the guy, but he only did so after being outed. He is showing himself to be quite the politician, as others have noted:
Ari Fleischer, former press secretary for President Bush, suggested that the controversy and the timing of Obama’s disavowal show him to be little more than a shrewd politician.
“I think there’s a reason Republicans I talk to are increasingly looking forward to running against Barack Obama,” Fleischer said.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/15/fallout-from-pastors-sermons-unknown-as-obama-attempts-damage-control/
Yea, no kidding, 4 years ago they offered up Kerry, now, in an election they that should be a landslide, they offer up Obama or Hilary a conflict with-in a party to could fragment it come November. And really the republicans aren't doing much better with McCain but at least they "settled" on him.
Geez, if was a little less skeptical i'd think there was a conspiracy here.
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Yea, no kidding, 4 years ago they offered up Kerry, now, in an election they that should be a landslide, they offer up Obama or Hilary a conflict with-in a party to could fragment it come November. And really the republicans aren't doing much better with McCain but at least they "settled" on him.
Geez, if was a little less skeptical i'd think there was a conspiracy here.
I think obama isn't that bad of a candidate. He's not strongly experienced, but he is a leader and he makes good decisions. The WORST people can find out about him is that his priest has wild opinions, and once he accepted campaign donations from a bad guy, renzo.
compare that to mccain. been involved in scandals, and not exactly the model hubby.
plus for all his age/experience/wisdom, mccain appears to be an angry man, and always eager to verbally misstep. if you dont have ability to only speak wisely at 71, you'll never have it. "bomb iran" and "100 more years of war" were bad things to say - war isn't funny.
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I think obama isn't that bad of a candidate. He's not strongly experienced, but he is a leader and he makes good decisions. The WORST people can find out about him is that his priest has wild opinions, and once he accepted campaign donations from a bad guy, renzo.
compare that to mccain. been involved in scandals, and not exactly the model hubby.
plus for all his age/experience/wisdom, mccain appears to be an angry man, and always eager to verbally misstep. if you dont have ability to only speak wisely at 71, you'll never have it. "bomb iran" and "100 more years of war" were bad things to say - war isn't funny.
I donno, rob. There's a difference between the scrutiny a d candidate goes in a primary versus a presidential race.
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I donno, rob. There's a difference between the scrutiny a d candidate goes in a primary versus a presidential race.
perhaps... but 2 things to remember... by the time the convention drama is over and nominee Obama announces his running mate, there will only be 9 weeks until the Nov election. That gives Rove and team 9 weeks to do what a very talented clinton team couldn't do in 18 month - put a single scratch on this guy. And there comes a point - if Rush and Rove and others deliver a daily barrage of attacks, that the average swing voter will just be TIRED of the negative shit and it'll lose impact. Plus, Rove stains mccain with the bush stink, no doubt about that. Going public as his adviser makes it official that mccain - bush term 3.
The other thing is that if the economy slide continues, it won't matter if Obama promises to piss on your doorstep. As long as he's anti-Bush plan, and mccain is pro-bush economic plan, the election should be a cakewalk.
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It's all about judgment. If someone makes truly bizarre statements, particularly in public, and has irrational views, that calls into question all of the advice they might give.
BB,
you do this on almost a daily basis
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Yea, no kidding, 4 years ago they offered up Kerry, now, in an election they that should be a landslide, they offer up Obama or Hilary a conflict with-in a party to could fragment it come November. And really the republicans aren't doing much better with McCain but at least they "settled" on him.
Geez, if was a little less skeptical i'd think there was a conspiracy here.
That has been their history since Carter. Maybe it's the vast ringwing conspiracy? :)
I think Obama will have trouble when it becomes a two horse race. He's going to have problems running to the center like Democrat nominees have to do in order to win the general. He's too far to the left. His lack of experience with military matters will hurt too, particularly when we are fighting in two countries.
McCain's experience gives him a decided advantage IMO.
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Here are what one of my favorite liberals and one of my favorite conservatives have to say:
“This is a man who he chose to be associated with. It’s not a family member. He chose to be associated with Reverend Wright and saw advantage in it. And that’s why he exploited it up to a point when he realized, especially when he was announcing, that he couldn’t have Wright by his side for the announcement in Springfield and now seeks to somehow distance himself. But it speaks to his character, and it speaks to the judgment which is the basis on which Barack Obama has been running his campaign. So I think it could be a big problem,” said National Public Radio national correspondent and FOX News contributor Juan Williams.
It also could suggest an insincerity by Obama, said conservative syndicated columnist Charles Krauthammer.
“This, I think, is a huge story because it contradicts the whole persona and appeal of Obama as a man who transcends race,” Krauthammer said. “I think it ought to be explored a lot more deeply.”
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/16/pastor-creates-guilt-by-association-problem-for-obama/
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At one December service, Wright argued Clinton's road to the White House is easier than Obama's because of her skin color.
"Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single-parent home; Barack was," Wright says in a video of the sermon posted on YouTube. "Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary! Hillary ain't never been called a 'black!' Hillary has never had her people defined as a non-person."
I thought Obama was running a campaign on Change not Color :-\
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They tried to link Mccain with some guy who made some anti-catholic or anti islamic statements. He is considered Mccains spiritual advisor. I'm not sure if its a tokern kind of thing but this guy is in Ohio and not somebody that Mccain went to every sunday over 20 years. He's from the World harvest church. If this is the same place, then I lived 5 miles from this place. Its massive. The stuff they had on Fox didn't sound even remotely bad. In any event this is an Obama issue and he's done very little to distance himself. i don't even know what u can do. He went over 20 years, and this guy baptized his kids.
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....your going to sit there and tell me he had no idea of what his "pastor" believed? Alot of what he said was right after 9/11.........Obama and his wife fully where this man stood.
No I'm not. You're making that argument for me. I'm saying that controversial statements by religious figures are fairly standard.
As long as the candidate does not make those controversial statements him/herself, I don't see the problem.
And I do agree with you that I think I would fall out of my chair if I saw actual issues discussed in the national media instead of this crap.
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Nice to see obama has distanced himself from the pastor...but as stated above, he did it for political reasons during an election.
Obama has talked about the great importance of his church & his pastor prior to the recent news. He chose this pastor and church out of hundreds in the Chicago area and has been involved for nearly 20 yrs. Any reasonably intelligent person can see this pastor is frantic with political and racial motivation (not to mention insighting mob mentality and ignorance). The other troubling part is that the church attendees were cheering and clapping to these ridiculous rants. Thats scary (many churches have scary sermons and ignorant quotes by pastors but we are concentrating on this one at the moment). Those are not isolated incidents in the church, don't be niave. Obama is a very smart individual, he knows exactly what kind of church this is, what kind pastor lead the church and what kind of support he received from them. I think it provides more insight into he and Michelle Obama's true beliefs. Whats being said now is to be elected, you must look at the candidate's past and record.
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Nice to see obama has distanced himself from the pastor...but as stated above, he did it for political reasons during an election.
Obama has talked about the great importance of his church & his pastor prior to the recent news. He chose this pastor and church out of hundreds in the Chicago area and has been involved for nearly 20 yrs. Any reasonably intelligent person can see this pastor is frantic with political and racial motivation (not to mention insighting mob mentality and ignorance). The other troubling part is that the church attendees were cheering and clapping to these ridiculous rants. Thats scary (many churches have scary sermons and ignorant quotes by pastors but we are concentrating on this one at the moment). Those are not isolated incidents in the church, don't be niave. Obama is a very smart individual, he knows exactly what kind of church this is, what kind pastor lead the church and what kind of support he received from them. I think it provides more insight into he and Michelle Obama's true beliefs. Whats being said now is to be elected, you must look at the candidate's past and record.
Did you had this same opinion of the dangers of informed choice when John McCain ran to kiss the ring of Jerry Falwell at Liberty U.?
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Decker....I hear what ur saying but Obama was with this guy for 20n years. I think there is little lese he can do. He's connected to this guy and at this point people will either belive him or they won't. If we are still talking about this next week then he has a problem.
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Decker....I hear what ur saying but Obama was with this guy for 20n years. I think there is little lese he can do. He's connected to this guy and at this point people will either belive him or they won't. If we are still talking about this next week then he has a problem.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly that Obama has a problem now with this preacher. It's going to make all the news cycles over and over again.
It looks like he's in the same boat as McCain but slightly different. Back in 2000, McCain criticized Falwell as an agent of intolerance and 8 years later he's praising the man.
I suppose stuff like this must play out.
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Yeah but Farwell didn't marry this guy's family and didn't baptize his kids. This is different and a piller of the Obama campaign is inclusiveness and hope....the preacher does not sling alot of hope, maybe hate. I see ur point. If this was Hil, she'd be dead. Its fun to watch how some people defend this. U can't defend this. Obam went to this guy for 20 years...he named his book after one of his sermons. i guess he was only paying attention that day. I also don't think Obama can really do a damm thing about this.
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I agree with headhunter. There really is no comparison between McCain meeting with Falwell or others on one hand and Obama have a spiritual advisor in his ear for 20 years on the other hand. Big distinction.
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This guy is the reason that Mormons do not allow cameras in their churches.
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I'm also betting that u have to meet and say nice things about the evangelicals to get their vote. Get in shake a hand and get out
Good point Tre
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They tried to link Mccain with some guy who made some anti-catholic or anti islamic statements. He is considered Mccains spiritual advisor. I'm not sure if its a tokern kind of thing but this guy is in Ohio and not somebody that Mccain went to every sunday over 20 years. He's from the World harvest church. If this is the same place, then I lived 5 miles from this place. Its massive. The stuff they had on Fox didn't sound even remotely bad. In any event this is an Obama issue and he's done very little to distance himself. i don't even know what u can do. He went over 20 years, and this guy baptized his kids.
The man to whom you're referring is pastor Rod Parsley. Prior to this stuff with McCain, the last political figure with whom Parsley was associated (which brought him under scrutiny) was, I think, a mayor or governor who was backing the state's marriage amendment.
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What's happening here is people are confusing the preacher's political views with Obama's.
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What's happening here is people are confusing the preacher's political views with Obama's.
The association is purely intentional
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What's happening here is people are confusing the preacher's political views with Obama's.
I'm not. Just questioning his judgment, along with liberal and conservative pundits (see the quotes above from Juan Williams and Charles Krauthammer).
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I'm not. Just questioning his judgment, along with liberal and conservative pundits (see the quotes above from Juan Williams and Charles Krauthammer).
Well yes and no. You are questioning some things about Obama some of which you are posting as reasons not to vote for him or to re-think why you should vote for him.
The reality, is, what this preacher has to say about politics should be a non-issue, but everything about this thread is making it a political issue
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March 11, 2007
Jodi Kantor
The New York Times
9 West 43rd Street
New York,
New York 10036-3959
Dear Jodi:
Thank you for engaging in one of the biggest misrepresentations of the truth I have ever seen in sixty-five years. You sat and shared with me for two hours. You told me you were doing a “Spiritual Biography” of Senator Barack Obama. For two hours, I shared with you how I thought he was the most principled individual in public service that I have ever met.
For two hours, I talked with you about how idealistic he was. For two hours I shared with you what a genuine human being he was. I told you how incredible he was as a man who was an African American in public service, and as a man who refused to announce his candidacy for President until Carol Moseley Braun indicated one way or the other whether or not she was going to run.
I told you what a dreamer he was. I told you how idealistic he was. We talked about how refreshing it would be for someone who knew about Islam to be in the Oval Office. Your own question to me was, Didn’t I think it would be incredible to have somebody in the Oval Office who not only knew about Muslims, but had living and breathing Muslims in his own family? I told you how important it would be to have a man who not only knew the difference between Shiites and Sunnis prior to 9/11/01 in the Oval Office, but also how important it would be to have a man who knew what Sufism was; a man who understood that there were different branches of Judaism; a man who knew the difference between Hasidic Jews, Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews and Reformed Jews; and a man who was a devout Christian, but who did not prejudge others because they believed something other than what he believed.
I talked about how rare it was to meet a man whose Christianity was not just “in word only.” I talked about Barack being a person who lived his faith and did not argue his faith. I talked about Barack as a person who did not draw doctrinal lines in the sand nor consign other people to hell if they did not believe what he believed.
Out of a two-hour conversation with you about Barack’s spiritual journey and my protesting to you that I had not shaped him nor formed him, that I had not mentored him or made him the man he was, even though I would love to take that credit, you did not print any of that. When I told you, using one of your own Jewish stories from the Hebrew Bible as to how God asked Moses, “What is that in your hand?,” that Barack was like that when I met him. Barack had it “in his hand.” Barack had in his grasp a uniqueness in terms of his spiritual development that one is hard put to find in the 21st century, and you did not print that.
As I was just starting to say a moment ago, Jodi, out of two hours of conversation I spent approximately five to seven minutes on Barack’s taking advice from one of his trusted campaign people and deeming it unwise to make me the media spotlight on the day of his announcing his candidacy for the Presidency and what do you print? You and your editor proceeded to present to the general public a snippet, a printed “sound byte” and a titillating and tantalizing article about his disinviting me to the Invocation on the day of his announcing his candidacy.
I have never been exposed to that kind of duplicitous behavior before, and I want to write you publicly to let you know that I do not approve of it and will not be party to any further smearing of the name, the reputation, the integrity or the character of perhaps this nation’s first (and maybe even only) honest candidate offering himself for public service as the person to occupy the Oval Office.
Your editor is a sensationalist. For you to even mention that makes me doubt your credibility, and I am looking forward to see how you are going to butcher what else I had to say concerning Senator Obama’s “Spiritual Biography.” Our Conference Minister, the Reverend Jane Fisler Hoffman, a white woman who belongs to a Black church that Hannity of “Hannity and Colmes” is trying to trash, set the record straight for you in terms of who I am and in terms of who we are as the church to which Barack has belonged for over twenty years.
The president of our denomination, the Reverend John Thomas, has offered to try to help you clarify in your confused head what Trinity Church is even though you spent the entire weekend with us setting me up to interview me for what turned out to be a smear of the Senator; and yet The New York Times continues to roll on making the truth what it wants to be the truth. I do not remember reading in your article that Barack had apologized for listening to that bad information and bad advice. Did I miss it? Or did your editor cut it out? Either way, you do not have to worry about hearing anything else from me for you to edit or “spin” because you are more interested in journalism than in truth.
Forgive me for having a momentary lapse. I forgot that The New York Times was leading the bandwagon in trumpeting why it is we should have gone into an illegal war. The New York Times became George Bush and the Republican Party’s national “blog.” The New York Times played a role in the outing of Valerie Plame. I do not know why I thought The New York Times had actually repented and was going to exhibit a different kind of behavior.
Maybe it was my faith in the Jewish Holy Day of Roshashana. Maybe it was my being caught up in the euphoria of the Season of Lent; but whatever it is or was, I was sadly mistaken. There is no repentance on the part of The New York Times. There is no integrity when it comes to The Times. You should do well with that paper, Jodi. You looked me straight in my face and told me a lie!
Sincerely and respectfully yours,
Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. ,
Senior Pastor
Trinity United Church of Christ
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Well yes and no. You are questioning some things about Obama some of which you are posting as reasons not to vote for him or to re-think why you should vote for him.
The reality, is, what this preacher has to say about politics should be a non-issue, but everything about this thread is making it a political issue
I'm questioning his judgment and that of his spiritual advisor. I'm not questioning his spiritual beliefs or those of his spiritual advisor. I don't even know what his spiritual beliefs truly are. He claims to be a devout Christian and claims to pray daily. Have no idea if that is accurate.
Anyone saying in a public forum that we invented HIV in a lab to try and exterminate black people is off his rocker. If Obama is getting advice from someone like that, then I'm concerned about it. In that sense, it is a legitimate political issue.
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Yeah, its not confusing the two, rather, the question is why would Obama, someone who very well could be our next president belong to such a non-mainstream church with such a close relationship with a nutty pastor like this. That should concern us all. With the intelligent and positive way Barack presents himself, I was surprised to see a close friend and spiritual mentor like this pastor whos sermons are filled with such discontent for America, unfounded speculations and theories under the guise of a christian church. This man is in a position to lead people, to better people, and this is the crap he preaches. I'm not a big fan of organized religion but this seems hypocritical to me.
I don't remember McCain and Farwell being near the same degree of association, however, I would condem anything that supports Farwell's wacky comments too.
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I think its a huge deal as far as who Obama associates himself with....this is not the first guy who he's associated himslef with, that has issues. But I guess its just words.
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I think its a huge deal as far as who Obama associates himself with....this is not the first guy who he's associated himslef with, that has issues. But I guess its just words.
who have the other people been, that have 'had issues'?
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I assume you mean Resko. To me, thats not as big a deal...but I don't know all the details either.
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I assume you mean Resko. To me, thats not as big a deal...but I don't know all the details either.
Supposedly, one of his campaign contributors is under investigation.
It's a very slippery slope for Hillary's campaign to try to use that against him, because many of her long time campaign contributors have been under similar types of investigation, and others have been convicted. Supposedly there is not even any allegation of wrong doing on Obama's part, but his opponents are desperate to malign him in any way they can. It's grasping at straws when it comes down to it because if all were guilty by that same kind of association, not one political candidate or elected official could remain standing. I heard Enron made many contributions to campaign on both sides of the aisle, as did Worldcom, microsoft, and any number of companies who later come under scrutiny.
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I'm questioning his judgment and that of his spiritual advisor. I'm not questioning his spiritual beliefs or those of his spiritual advisor. I don't even know what his spiritual beliefs truly are. He claims to be a devout Christian and claims to pray daily. Have no idea if that is accurate.
Anyone saying in a public forum that we invented HIV in a lab to try and exterminate black people is off his rocker. If Obama is getting advice from someone like that, then I'm concerned about it. In that sense, it is a legitimate political issue.
You've never talked with multiple people who were stationed in Ft. Detrick? I'm not saying it was to exterminate black people, but it was surely invented. Think of it like this BB, there were people who used the Bible to justify slavery, and there were those who used the Bible to justify the abolition of slavery. In truth the Bible neither condones nor condemns slavery. But many people read the Bible and take from it what they can. Just as Obama can with his Pastor.
There have been times where I was in the presents of 5 Percenters, Christians, Jehovah Witness', Eastern Stars, NOI (Nation of Islam) during times of "building" sessions, a lot of what they say is true or makes sense, and a lot of what they say makes no sense what so ever. But should I discount the truth that one gets because of the Out of this World claims? No, because sometimes the most far fetched ideas, are just that, far fetched, and other times, they are so far out, that we don't see the truth in them.
Have you ever talked with a old man whose been around the world and gained a lot of wisdom. Sometimes their wisdom or judgment is colored by their experiences. So you have a black preacher whose probably been in the Chicago area all his life (I don't know), seeing those projects built, seeing the Souther blacks move in, seeing the whole "project" fail. Then you have Obama, a mulatto whose grandmother didn't like black men, and whose mother probably gravitated towards them because of that. And now Obama is part of that church, makes damn perfect sense to me. Both came to a spot in their lives that intersected, all due to their experiences in life. I see no big deal in it.
As it was said before, we have Prez. Bomb A lot focusing in on another War, gas is almost 4 dollars a gallon in MD, which means prices of everything else goes up...I wish Americans would keep their eyes on the ball, our lack of focus is one reason why we struck out for the past 8 years.
"Chickens coming home to Roast", last time that was said, JFK was assassinated, and the man who said it, Malcolm X, was ex-communicated from the NOI. Lets hope something doesn't go down with this.
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Interesting that Beach Bum is using generalized labels of "crazy" and "off his rocker" now to describe those with beliefs that fall outside the conventional story - or even do not.
20% of Americans believe we didn't set foot on the moon. They shouldn't have guns.
67% of Americans weant a new 911 investigation. They're all crazy.
Beach Bum, you're a close minded republican cumguzzler. And you know it. When you look in the mirror, you don't see a man, you see a sheep.
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You've never talked with multiple people who were stationed in Ft. Detrick? I'm not saying it was to exterminate black people, but it was surely invented. Think of it like this BB, there were people who used the Bible to justify slavery, and there were those who used the Bible to justify the abolition of slavery. In truth the Bible neither condones nor condemns slavery. But many people read the Bible and take from it what they can. Just as Obama can with his Pastor.
There have been times where I was in the presents of 5 Percenters, Christians, Jehovah Witness', Eastern Stars, NOI (Nation of Islam) during times of "building" sessions, a lot of what they say is true or makes sense, and a lot of what they say makes no sense what so ever. But should I discount the truth that one gets because of the Out of this World claims? No, because sometimes the most far fetched ideas, are just that, far fetched, and other times, they are so far out, that we don't see the truth in them.
Have you ever talked with a old man whose been around the world and gained a lot of wisdom. Sometimes their wisdom or judgment is colored by their experiences. So you have a black preacher whose probably been in the Chicago area all his life (I don't know), seeing those projects built, seeing the Souther blacks move in, seeing the whole "project" fail. Then you have Obama, a mulatto whose grandmother didn't like black men, and whose mother probably gravitated towards them because of that. And now Obama is part of that church, makes damn perfect sense to me. Both came to a spot in their lives that intersected, all due to their experiences in life. I see no big deal in it.
As it was said before, we have Prez. Bomb A lot focusing in on another War, gas is almost 4 dollars a gallon in MD, which means prices of everything else goes up...I wish Americans would keep their eyes on the ball, our lack of focus is one reason why we struck out for the past 8 years.
"Chickens coming home to Roast", last time that was said, JFK was assassinated, and the man who said it, Malcolm X, was ex-communicated from the NOI. Lets hope something doesn't go down with this.
I hear what you're saying Parker and I agree with you to some extent. I've talked to black folks who lived through Jim Crow and many of them really do have a different outlook. They're much more suspicious, some are more jaded, some are frankly a little paranoid (and rightfully so).
That said, I've read about HIV and I'm sorry but it's just insane to say it was created by the United States government to wipe out black people. That's the kind of thing I would expect an ignorant fool who believes we faked the moon landing to say.
Also, it's one thing to have some bizarre viewpoints. It's quite another to state them in a public forum. I have a good friend who believes the government has a "weather machine." He's smart, educated, level headed. He would never repeat that claim in public.
The issue for me is judgment more than anything else.
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20% of Americans believe we didn't set foot on the moon. They shouldn't have guns.
:)
(http://www.wonderworksweb.com/ftpfolder/Photo/pictures/image160.jpg)
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moon landing pic = brutal red herring.
for a lib moderator, you sure use a lot of red herrings, BB.
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I hear what you're saying Parker and I agree with you to some extent. I've talked to black folks who lived through Jim Crow and many of them really do have a different outlook. They're much more suspicious, some are more jaded, some are frankly a little paranoid (and rightfully so).
That said, I've read about HIV and I'm sorry but it's just insane to say it was created by the United States government to wipe out black people. That's the kind of thing I would expect an ignorant fool who believes we faked the moon landing to say.
Also, it's one thing to have some bizarre viewpoints. It's quite another to state them in a public forum. I have a good friend who believes the government has a "weather machine." He's smart, educated, level headed. He would never repeat that claim in public.
The issue for me is judgment more than anything else.
Perhaps you need to read a little more about it then. I'm not in any way saying the allegations are correct, however, when one studies the issue closely enough there are some very disturbing correlations that make the allegations appear a lot less unplausible and one is able to see the logic in the reasoning.
Furthermore, I'm sure many years ago there were well meaning citizens screaming about how insane the natives crackpot conspiracy theorists were when they made claim that the gov was purposely infecting their population with small pox, or even recently when those crackpot conspiracy theorist Jews were making claim that the Nazi's were systematically killing Jews. Genocide along racial & religious lines have been taking place on this planet for centuries. The theory is not insane, especially when there is credible evidence to suggest such a thing as both plausible and implementable.
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when confronted with facts, beach bum will quickly respond with an eye roll and a trained generic label response. Like this:
Sounds like you're a nut. ::)
it'll be somthing like that. jag, I haven't heard much about that HIV claim... share what you have on it. I've heard it quite a few times, never seen anything credible on it. What causes you to say there are very disturbing correlations?
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Perhaps you need to read a little more about it then. I'm not in any way saying the allegations are correct, however, when one studies the issue closely enough there are some very disturbing correlations that make the allegations appear a lot less unplausible and one is able to see the logic in the reasoning.
Furthermore, I'm sure many years ago there were well meaning citizens screaming about how insane the natives crackpot conspiracy theorists were when they made claim that the gov was purposely infecting their population with small pox, or even recently when those crackpot conspiracy theorist Jews were making claim that the Nazi's were systematically killing Jews. Genocide along racial & religious lines have been taking place on this planet for centuries. The theory is not insane, especially when there is credible evidence to suggest such a thing as both plausible and implementable.
And what specific "very disturbing correlations that make the allegations appear a lot less unplausible" are you talking about?
BTW, I posted some information about HIV and AIDs a while back that contradict the traditional view about how the disease is transmitted: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=95759.25
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when confronted with facts, beach bum will quickly respond with an eye roll and a trained generic label response. Like this:
Sounds like you're a nut. ::)
it'll be somthing like that. jag, I haven't heard much about that HIV claim... share what you have on it. I've heard it quite a few times, never seen anything credible on it. What causes you to say there are very disturbing correlations?
Hey Rob,
Had a Professor in College who "claims" to have been station at Ft. Detrick, I forgot most of his lecture, but he backed up his proof of being stationed there and had other info...like I said, I forgot most of it, it was like 10 years ago. I forgot what he did in the military. I've met others who were stationed there as well, all say similar things. That's the funny thing about the DC metro area, you run into people who "supposedly" have had inside info. But I don't know if it's like the X-files Cigarette Man, in which they are told things to spread to the populace in order to mislead them or not.
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And what specific "very disturbing correlations that make the allegations appear a lot less unplausible" are you talking about?
BTW, I posted some information about HIV and AIDs a while back that contradict the traditional view about how the disease is transmitted: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=95759.25
Since I'm aware of your MO, understand this post is for the benefit of those who don't play the blind fool on here.
I have neither the time, nor inclination to dig out the heavy proof, but off the top of my head, one can start with the Tuskeegee experiments and the timing of those. The US gov deemed it necessary to infect African American males in America with a deadly STD, and decided to withhold forbid any sort of treatment for them in order to study the progress of it's debilitating effects on the immune system for 3/4ths of a century ...and people claim anyone who espouses or gives any credence to Wright's theory is a crackpot? ::) I think anyone who could dismiss such theories outright are those who are not thinking to full capacity. Precedence has been well set, and it is a well known fact that those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. Furthermore, when the US government knowingly allows a corporation (Bayer) to knowingly export and infect the populations of Europe... infact the world, with HIV infected Factor 8, do you really think they would be above the creation of a biological weapon for use in Africa? I won't even bring into this what biological agents have been created and sprayed over San Francisco, or released into the subways of NYC. The USA gov has already experimented more than enough on it's own citizens at home, has exposed it's own citizens to enough deadly, biological and radioactive weaponry to make it not at all unplausible that they could do the same to Africans over in Africa.
A much simpler and far more stark "co-incidence" however is massive vaccinations. Some of you may not recall, infact, some of you may not have even been born then, ...but in the late 70's, ...there was a massive vaccination campaign around the world against smallpox. Shortly thereafter, many who got the smallpox vaccination here in North America, came down with smallpox. There were different effects in different countries around the world, as if each country got a different version, but there was a fallout in most of them.
Do you recall in cinema when the detectives are trying to locate a suspect, track him down to an area or locate the vicinity where s/he will most likely attack his/her next victim, ...and the director or cinematographer tries to graphically display that for the audience, ...they will show a man with pins pushed in, in a sort of graphical triangulation for the audience? ... ok, now, take out a map of the continent of Africa, and lay out the regions where the WHO did their initial small pox innoculations. Then take out another map of the continent of Africa, and lay out the initial outbreak regions for AIDs. When you superimpose one map over the other... guess what... they fit exactly.
That's just cursory. The HIV virus is a spliced and genetically engineered virus that simply got away from them.
Consider too what other mad scientists around the world are cooking up. We have scientists in Israel attempting to isolate genetic markers unique to Palestinians. I hope you're not naive enough to think this is being done so that Israeli doctors can figure out how to provide better health care to Palestinians. Fortunately, Israeli genetics (especially those of the Sephardim) & Palestinian genetics are so closely related, they are unable to target a biological weapon that would take out Palestinians without doing themselves irreparable damage in the process. "Never Again" made for a catchy sound byte, ...but it never took root in the heart of all men.
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Since I'm aware of your MO, understand this post is for the benefit of those who don't play the blind fool on here.
I have neither the time, nor inclination to dig out the heavy proof, but off the top of my head, one can start with the Tuskeegee experiments and the timing of those. The US gov deemed it necessary to infect African American males in America with a deadly STD, and decided to withhold forbid any sort of treatment for them in order to study the progress of it's debilitating effects on the immune system for 3/4ths of a century ...and people claim anyone who espouses or gives any credence to Wright's theory is a crackpot? ::) I think anyone who could dismiss such theories outright are those who are not thinking to full capacity. Precedence has been well set, and it is a well known fact that those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. Furthermore, when the US government knowingly allows a corporation (Bayer) to knowingly export and infect the populations of Europe... infact the world, with HIV infected Factor 8, do you really think they would be above the creation of a biological weapon for use in Africa? I won't even bring into this what biological agents have been created and sprayed over San Francisco, or released into the subways of NYC. The USA gov has already experimented more than enough on it's own citizens at home, has exposed it's own citizens to enough deadly, biological and radioactive weaponry to make it not at all unplausible that they could do the same to Africans over in Africa.
A much simpler and far more stark "co-incidence" however is massive vaccinations. Some of you may not recall, infact, some of you may not have even been born then, ...but in the late 70's, ...there was a massive vaccination campaign around the world against smallpox. Shortly thereafter, many who got the smallpox vaccination here in North America, came down with smallpox. There were different effects in different countries around the world, as if each country got a different version, but there was a fallout in most of them.
Do you recall in cinema when the detectives are trying to locate a suspect, track him down to an area or locate the vicinity where s/he will most likely attack his/her next victim, ...and the director or cinematographer tries to graphically display that for the audience, ...they will show a man with pins pushed in, in a sort of graphical triangulation for the audience? ... ok, now, take out a map of the continent of Africa, and lay out the regions where the WHO did their initial small pox innoculations. Then take out another map of the continent of Africa, and lay out the initial outbreak regions for AIDs. When you superimpose one map over the other... guess what... they fit exactly.
That's just cursory. The HIV virus is a spliced and genetically engineered virus that simply got away from them.
Consider too what other mad scientists around the world are cooking up. We have scientists in Israel attempting to isolate genetic markers unique to Palestinians. I hope you're not naive enough to think this is being done so that Israeli doctors can figure out how to provide better health care to Palestinians. Fortunately, Israeli genetics (especially those of the Sephardim) & Palestinian genetics are so closely related, they are unable to target a biological weapon that would take out Palestinians without doing themselves irreparable damage in the process. "Never Again" made for a catchy sound byte, ...but it never took root in the heart of all men.
Are you kidding? No time or inclination for "heavy proof"? You didn't provide an iota of proof. This is typical conspiracy theorist gibberish. For example:
Furthermore, when the US government knowingly allows a corporation (Bayer) to knowingly export and infect the populations of Europe... infact the world, with HIV infected Factor 8, do you really think they would be above the creation of a biological weapon for use in Africa?
lol. . . . Another getbig.com exclusive. The U.S. government knowingly allowed Bayer to infect the world with HIV?? Good Lord. Proof? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you say this kind of stuff??
I'm sorry I asked . . . .
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The HIV virus was not created by the US to infect blacks. Using past history to propose this is ludacris. We are talking about two different time periods in history. That part of our history is disgusting, no doubt.
After that rambling conspiracy theory...I'm not sure if we should be discussing this any further. If you (and others) really believe HIV was created and unleased on black Americans during the 1980s, there are more issues in this country than I thought. I'm pretty sure most of my black friends wouldn't buy into this crap.
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The HIV virus was not created by the US to infect blacks. Using past history to propose this is ludacris. We are talking about two different time periods in history. That part of our history is disgusting, no doubt.
After that rambling conspiracy theory...I'm not sure if we should be discussing this any further. If you (and others) really believe HIV was created and unleased on black Americans during the 1980s, there are more issues in this country than I thought.
Well said. Completely agree.
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The HIV virus was not created by the US to infect blacks. Using past history to propose this is ludacris. We are talking about two different time periods in history. That part of our history is disgusting, no doubt.
After that rambling conspiracy theory...I'm not sure if we should be discussing this any further. If you (and others) really believe HIV was created and unleased on black Americans during the 1980s, there are more issues in this country than I thought. I'm pretty sure most of my black friends wouldn't buy into this crap.
This stuff is part of a sub-culture. It's wacky, blaming and completely out of touch with reality. It's another way not to be accountable for one's own life.
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Are you kidding? No time or inclination for "heavy proof"? You didn't provide an iota of proof. This is typical conspiracy theorist gibberish.
Proof have never been a requirement for deeming an allegation plausible, ...only logic & reason.
The operative word is plausible. I will re-iterate: I make no claim that the allegations are correct.
Simply that to label someone a "crackpot" in the presence of plausibility & precedent betrays an incredible amount of ignorance at best. More plausibly though (there's that word again), it displays a desperate bid to avert the eyes and attention of a public that might ask the question "What could make an educated and learned man espouse such theories?"
For example:
Furthermore, when the US government knowingly allows a corporation (Bayer) to knowingly export and infect the populations of Europe... infact the world, with HIV infected Factor 8, do you really think they would be above the creation of a biological weapon for use in Africa?
lol. . . . Another getbig.com exclusive. The U.S. government knowingly allowed Bayer to infect the world with HIV?? Good Lord. Proof? How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you say this kind of stuff??
I'm sorry I asked . . . .
Those who spend their lives glued to the spectacle of Reality TV, American Idol, or the distraction of Paris Hilton's social life may have a hard time hearing, let alone accepting certain hard truths, ...however, the informed (and thankfully they are an ever increasing number) are able to get past the initial shock to their sensibilities. Despite the incredible intellectual deficit displayed by those of your ilk, I still believe there is hope for America and Americans. Every day Americans are standing up for change, and a departure from the status quo and old ways of doing things. As their eyes open wider and they begin to see who they once were, how far they have stepped away from that to become what they have, as well as the work still left to be done. As this process increases, the hard truths of where they were, and the vision of who they are to become grows every day clearer and clearer.
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Agree completely. It's nonsense.
The govt did let an infectious STD kill a group of people in 1972 for research purposes.
They readily admit it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male
But they wouldn't do it in 1981 when HIV arrived, as some have accused.
That would be crazy. Fucking CT lunatics. You're nuts.
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Proof have never been a requirement for deeming an allegation plausible, ...only logic & reason.
The operative word is plausible. I will re-iterate: I make no claim that the allegations are correct.
Simply that to label someone a "crackpot" in the presence of plausibility & precedent betrays an incredible amount of ignorance at best. More plausibly though (there's that word again), it displays a desperate bid to avert the eyes and attention of a public that might ask the question "What could make an educated and learned man espouse such theories?"
Those who spend their lives glued to the spectacle of Reality TV, American Idol, or the distraction of Paris Hilton's social life may have a hard time hearing, let alone accepting certain hard truths, ...however, the informed (and thankfully they are an ever increasing number) are able to get past the initial shock to their sensibilities. Despite the incredible intellectual deficit displayed by those of your ilk, I still believe there is hope for America and Americans. Every day Americans are standing up for change, and a departure from the status quo and old ways of doing things. As their eyes open wider and they begin to see who they once were, how far they have stepped away from that to become what they have, as well as the work still left to be done. As this process increases, the hard truths of where they were, and the vision of who they are to become grows every day clearer and clearer.
I am sorry that I tried to engage someone of your ilk. It was a moment of temporary insanity. People who believe in the wild conspiracy theories you embrace are just out of touch with reality. I suspect that folks who don't interact with real people on a regular basis are more prone to accept these ridiculous, sinister theories. On the other hand, it must be difficult for people who believe in these wild theories to interact with normal, intelligent people, because they would be not be taken seriously. One example, as I watching Lou Dobbs last night, was Errol Louis, columnist with the New York Daily News and member of the New York Daily News Editorial Board, who had this to say about people like you:
DOBBS: Do you find that you agreed with his characterization of both the black community and the white community?
LOUIS: I thought he was spot on when he was talking about the black church, at least the mass black church, the kind of church like Trinity in Chicago where everybody is there. There are recovering addicts and there are statesmen and there are lawyers and there are ex-convicts and there are people who think that you know 9/11 was some sort of plot by the government and there are people who are much more rational than that and they all kind of come together --
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/18/ldt.01.html
He called people who believe in that asinine conspiracy theory irrational. People who see a government conspiracy around every corner, like you, are beyond irrational.
In any event, none of this makes the pastor's unqualified accusation that the government created HIV in a lab to kill black people any more plausible.
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Well, beach Bum, your argument - completely devoid of evidence to counter jag's evidence - might be completely correct.
however, 67% of your fellow Americans want a new 911 investigation. So 2/3 of Americans are irrational.
Weren't you the one who told us a while back that Americans are, overall, very smart?
Hmmm...
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I am sorry that I tried to engage someone of your ilk. It was a moment of temporary insanity. People who believe in the wild conspiracy theories you embrace are just out of touch with reality. I suspect that folks who don't interact with real people on a regular basis are more prone to accept these ridiculous, sinister theories. On the other hand, it must be difficult for people who believe in these wild theories to interact with normal, intelligent people, because they would be not be taken seriously. One example, as I watching Lou Dobbs last night, was Errol Louis, columnist with the New York Daily News and member of the New York Daily News Editorial Board, who had this to say about people like you:
DOBBS: Do you find that you agreed with his characterization of both the black community and the white community?
LOUIS: I thought he was spot on when he was talking about the black church, at least the mass black church, the kind of church like Trinity in Chicago where everybody is there. There are recovering addicts and there are statesmen and there are lawyers and there are ex-convicts and there are people who think that you know 9/11 was some sort of plot by the government and there are people who are much more rational than that and they all kind of come together --
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/18/ldt.01.html
He called people who believe in that asinine conspiracy theory irrational. People who see a government conspiracy around every corner, like you, are beyond irrational.
In any event, none of this makes the pastor's unqualified accusation that the government created HIV in a lab to kill black people any more plausible.
I noticed your argument lacked any counters to jag's claims.
Please prove her claims wrong so we can see what a stupid and impossible theory it is. yesterday was the first time I heard it, and while it seems silly, she has presented some evidence.
Your post was great, but it did little more than redirect the topic to Dobbs interviewing some guy bashing 911 CTers. Um, this thread isn't about that. You might as well bring up the Holocaust, as I know you find nazi jokes to be funny, BB.
So please, refute her claims with evidence so people cannot accuse you of trying to ignore her evidence and steamroll the argument with unrelated CT bashing. Thanks!
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If you (and others) really believe HIV was created and unleased on black Americans during the 1980s, there are more issues in this country than I thought.
I did not say I believed it, ...I said that it is naive at best to label those who do, as mere "crackpots" in the face of such egregious examples of previous precedent.
And YES, ...there are more issues in the USA than most Americans are aware of. It's just like I had said to one poster in PM about a post I had made regarding the issues & challenges facing todays independant owner/operator truck drivers. (A post which imo was subsequently thoughtlessly censored due to the hypersensitivity and pavlovian responses of a reader, )...
Prior to 2 yrs ago, I had no idea the scope of challenges independent owner/operator long haul truck drivers were facing to not only survive, but to keep your country running. Because I don't drive an 18 wheeler every day, their challenges and issues weren't in my face 24/7, and I had no idea what was going on. I believe that to be true for the majority of the population. However, ...let the price of bread, milk, and other commodities that need to be trucked in start to rise, let it start to affect every day people, ...and they begin to see some of those challenges that have been affecting their brother. America is on the verge of change. She has an opportunity ahead of her, not unlike that which she experienced back in 1776. It is one where Americans endeavor to bridge the gap that divides her country across so many spectrums, and begins to learn & understand the issues confronting and facing each other on a daily basis. There ARE alot of issues in America, however, there is much common ground. If Americans are willing to find it, to not be so insular and myopic in her outlooks & perspectives, she can use that common ground to move forward towards that more perfect union that was the intent of the framers of her constitution.
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I am sorry that I tried to engage someone of your ilk.
You should be. You should also be quite grateful I have an 8:30 appt. with Australia, which precludes my factually & intellectually tearing you a new one.
It was a moment of temporary insanity.
We have all noticed you experience this quite frequently.
People who believe in the wild conspiracy theories you embrace are just out of touch with reality.
Why you insist upon ascribing some belief system to me in the face of such continued denial is beyond me. Do you really believe the readers here so stupid. I will re-iterate for the last time. I am not saying I believe or embrace his theories, simply that to label someone a "crackpot" in the face of so many egregious examples from history is naive and/or disengenuous.
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Jag, everyone here took your post as you wrote it. Except BB of course. Most of us are learning that nothings impossible in this day and age. Some people dont want to look around as they are brainwashed that things are fine. Talking sense to them is a waste of time....We dont have to believe everything, but at least we can consider it and be armed with knowledge instead of ignorance.
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Jag, everyone here took your post as you wrote it. Except BB of course. Most of us are learning that nothings impossible in this day and age. Some people dont want to look around as they are brainwashed that things are fine. Talking sense to them is a waste of time....We dont have to believe everything, but at least we can consider it and be armed with knowledge instead of ignorance.
Thank You.
With that... I'm off to connect with Newcastle! :)
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Beach Bum, please silence these worthless libs by just proving her claims wrong with actual facts.
What are you waiting for, BB? Shut these libs up. It's all over the news tonight, people are talking about it in forums all over the world.
Just show us proof it's all crazy nonsense, please, I'm tired of hearing about it!
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You should be. You should also be quite grateful I have an 8:30 appt. with Australia, which precludes my factually & intellectually tearing you a new one.
We have all noticed you experience this quite frequently.
Why you insist upon ascribing some belief system to me in the face of such continued denial is beyond me. Do you really believe the readers here so stupid. I will re-iterate for the last time. I am not saying I believe or embrace his theories, simply that to label someone a "crackpot" in the face of so many egregious examples from history is naive and/or disengenuous.
Why do I insist on ascribing a belief system to you? Oh I don't know, maybe because:
1. You believe the U.S. government carried out 911.
2. You believe President Bush has bribed the media.
3. You believe the CIA controls the media.
4. You're a few fries short of a Happy Meal. Case in point: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=175811.0
Regarding your proof that the United States government created HIV in a lab to kill black people, it doesn't exist. But given what I posted above, I can understand why you believe it or find it "plausible."
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Beach Bum,
You're playing right into the CTer hands. You're completely dodging the HIV talk and making it about 911, media, bush, etc. Why politicize it, and make it about "Jag"?
Why would you try to avoid refuting her obviously silly statement? I can tell you that the sky is green, you can quickly WIKI proof that I'm wrong. I can't understand why you refuse to point out how her facts are wrong.
I'm starting to think that you're like jag, and you believe that stuff. Is that it? I know you're anti-gun and you voted for a lib clinton before. Do you attend Obama's church? Do you think the pastor is right? Damn, I"m disappointed in you man.
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Still attempting to avoid the issue, and deflect discussion to irrelevant areas? pitifully predictable.
That tactic is staler than month old bread, ...or to borrow a phrase Bay turned me onto the other day,
Your intellect appears to me to be ...duller than day old douche water.
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McCain has a spiritual advisor? Who?
GWB's Spiritual advisor is Mr. Pat "we need to kill Hugo Chavez/KAtrina was Gods way of getting the gays out of New Orleans, but im still a christian Robertson
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GWB's Spiritual advisor is Mr. Pat "we need to kill Hugo Chavez/KAtrina was Gods way of getting the gays out of New Orleans, but im still a christian Robertson
This same man could be said to be responsible for the sad state of affairs within the US justice dept;
...lawyers with no concept or understanding of what the law actually is, ...or that it applies to them and the pResident
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This same man could be said to be responsible for the sad state of affairs within the US justice dept;
...lawyers with no concept or understanding of what the law actually is, ...or that it applies to them and the pResident
yeah i needed to read more about that...Pat has some kind of bull crap law school right...and a lot of the USJD appointees were hand selected by Bush from that bougus school