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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Painlayer69 on May 04, 2008, 10:43:58 AM

Title: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 04, 2008, 10:43:58 AM
I have lagging delts i cant seem to keep them up to par with the rest of my body because of them even my bench is very low. Wondering if you guys could please give me ANY advice on this matter below you will find my delt routine.


Side laterals, 15,15,12,10
DB presses, 10,8,8,6
Front bb presses,10,8,6,6
upright rows,10,10,10,10
rear delt flyes ( on an inclined bench ) 15,12,10,10

Please give me ANY help with shoulders as you guys can thank you
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: mitchyboy on May 04, 2008, 11:01:45 AM
Try doing drops on the laterals. Work up to your heavy weight, no lower than 8 reps, and than drop the hell out of them, all the way down to 5 or 10 pound dumbells. Hurts like hell but you learn to love it. Also, machine and smith presses are not for pussies, no matter what people tell you. You can really concentrate on just the press, and not balance, but do your laterals first. I'm doing this workout today matter of fact. I would work the rears with dumbells, lying on an incline bench or bent over seated or standing. good luck and hope this helps. Oh, and don't go the ego route, moderate weight for a great pump is better than swinging and tossing dumbells like a tool ;)
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 04, 2008, 11:03:34 AM
change something. either go high intensity, high volume, train it more often, or less often. try manipulating your supplements around the workout. maybe youve got to do isolation movements for a while, maybe yove got to stick to only power compound movements.

change something !
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 04, 2008, 03:07:14 PM
Thanx guys really appreciate it i will give the drop sets on the laterals a try that sounds like it could help alot with shape.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 04, 2008, 04:04:37 PM
1. do compound movements first, so move side laterals after presses
2. do either db or bb presses in one session, not both, now you are over-training
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 04, 2008, 07:22:04 PM
Well if i shouldnt do both presses in one session, which press would be better for overall mass? Or should i just switch from bb to db presses weekly? S i keep my muscles guessing on how they will be hit.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 04, 2008, 07:31:51 PM
Well if i shouldnt do both presses in one session, which press would be better for overall mass? Or should i just switch from bb to db presses weekly? S i keep my muscles guessing on how they will be hit.
Switch them every couple of weeks, do them standing or seated.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 04, 2008, 07:32:10 PM
i prefer bb but you can do bb for let's say 12 weeks, switch to db for 12 weeks, etc.  also try push presses instead of regular bb presses.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 04, 2008, 09:13:50 PM
What are push presses? actually never heard that name before
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 04, 2008, 09:28:26 PM
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/PushPress.html (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/PushPress.html)
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: laurion on May 05, 2008, 05:37:51 PM
Shoulders have always been my weak point, it's strange because for their size they are very strong and I think that is part of the problem.  I had an idea that if they can handle so much weight maybe I'm just not challenging them enough.  So I've been specifically targeting the delts while trying to minimize all other muscles that could rob from the delts.  I once watched a clip of Larry Scott talking about shoulders and what he said really resonated with me.  He talked about shoulders needing constant tension to grow, and he also said that front delts and traps are "bully" muscles and targeting them only caused them to rob growth from the "shoulder cap" (as Lee Haney would put it,)  so I've been doing more seated movements and less trap and front delt targeting, but three things that I really think are making a difference is "one arm flys," "steering wheel raises and "shoulder around the worlds" seen during MMA training for core and shoulder strength conditioning.  With "one arm raises" I hold onto a rail or some other stationary equipment and slightly lean toward the lifting arm, seems to really take work out of my abs, back and chest while really attacking the delts.  I also have been doing "steering wheel raises" to failure after failing on any press movement.  I feel like failing on the compound movement then dropping the weight and immediately doing these really have made a difference.  "Steering wheel raises" are done by holding a plate in front of you're body like a steering wheel (hands on side of plate), then raise the plate straight up in front of your face, next turn the "wheel" to one side (a quarter turn so that hands are on top and bottom of plate,) then while not allowing your "wheel" to leave a straight line in front of your body slowly lower it to first position leaving it a quarter turned with hands on top and bottom, last slowly turn the plate back to hands on sides and raise it back to in front of your face repeating it for your other sides delt.  Lastly the "shoulder around the world" I hold the plate in front of my head then slowly rotate it around the back of my head in a circular pattern.  After I started doing these things I feel like my caps are finally starting to come out!!  I also heard somewhere that most people really need more rear delt size to give the "cap" the illusion of size so I've been pre-exhausting them, I start shoulder day with them every time.

Hope this helps you as much as it has me, everyone is different though.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: benchmstr on May 05, 2008, 06:09:04 PM
I have lagging delts i cant seem to keep them up to par with the rest of my body because of them even my bench is very low. Wondering if you guys could please give me ANY advice on this matter below you will find my delt routine.


Side laterals, 15,15,12,10
DB presses, 10,8,8,6
Front bb presses,10,8,6,6
upright rows,10,10,10,10
rear delt flyes ( on an inclined bench ) 15,12,10,10

Please give me ANY help with shoulders as you guys can thank you
you are doing entirely to much for shoulders.

bench
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: mitchyboy on May 05, 2008, 08:08:12 PM
Wow, there is so much conflicting info on this 1 page its scary ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 05, 2008, 08:35:28 PM
Thanx alot laurion that does actually help a little i will have to try and see how it affects my delts.

And benchmstr, How am i doing to much for delts? Mine is a pretty simple routine seen in alot of magazines. I did think two presses in one session would be to much after it made my shoulders ache when moving to the second press.

What is your routine???????????????????????????
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 05, 2008, 08:44:05 PM
dude, 20 sets for shoulders is way too much.  my routine is:

good warmup
presses 3 work sets
side laterals 3 sets
rear delt raises 2 sets
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: PANDAEMONIUM on May 05, 2008, 10:33:58 PM
I have lagging delts i cant seem to keep them up to par with the rest of my body because of them even my bench is very low. Wondering if you guys could please give me ANY advice on this matter below you will find my delt routine.


Side laterals, 15,15,12,10
DB presses, 10,8,8,6
Front bb presses,10,8,6,6
upright rows,10,10,10,10
rear delt flyes ( on an inclined bench ) 15,12,10,10

Please give me ANY help with shoulders as you guys can thank you

Laterals are fine, and even front raises, but make sure you do very light weight and high reps on those.  Remember that the shoulder girdle is one of the "weakest links" in the body.  Heavy (whatever is "heavy" for you) laterals, front raises, etc., if not done strictly--and they usually aren't if they're "heavy" and done for lower reps--can seriously compromise your shoulder health if you're not careful.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 05, 2008, 10:37:26 PM
LESS.

i'm starting to honestly believe that shoulders can be built if you do enough pressing and add some rear delt work. people rely on laterals too much, like doing five variants of flyes for chest instead of just benching.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: PANDAEMONIUM on May 05, 2008, 10:39:08 PM
LESS.

i'm starting to honestly believe that shoulders can be built if you do enough pressing and add some rear delt work. people rely on laterals too much, like doing five variants of flyes for chest instead of just benching.

x2

Flyes, IMO, are useless.  Stick with heavy pressing movements.  That's where you get the most gains.  All the rest is just gravy.  And I'm not talking about "ball gravy", in case that fruit loop "Gone Away" is reading this ::) ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 05, 2008, 10:51:06 PM
x2

Flyes, IMO, are useless.  Stick with heavy pressing movements.  That's where you get the most gains.  All the rest is just gravy.  And I'm not talking about "ball gravy", in case that fruit loop "Gone Away" is reading this ::) ;D

wicked ripped me apart in my log for doing far too much damn shoulder work and i think it's paying off. my standing shoulder press popped up 20 pounds for a set of 6 and 185 was easier seated than it had been before.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: benchmstr on May 06, 2008, 03:33:39 AM
Thanx alot laurion that does actually help a little i will have to try and see how it affects my delts.

And benchmstr, How am i doing to much for delts? Mine is a pretty simple routine seen in alot of magazines. I did think two presses in one session would be to much after it made my shoulders ache when moving to the second press.

What is your routine???????????????????????????
i work out three times a week with what i refere to as a modified hst program.if i feel that i overtrained during my last workout i may change the movement a little so i can still stimulate the muscle group completely.

so when i do shoulder it usually goes as fallowes

side laterals-2X10 for warm-up only
standing shoulder press with Olympic bar-as many as i want

if i over do it the last work out i do this

side laterals-2x10 warm up only
rear laterals-2x10 warm up only
upright rows-usually only two sets because shoulders are still weak from the last workout,but i still use heavy weight.

i used to do the same type shit as you do for shoulders,when i stopped working out the traditional way and went to the way i work out now everything changed for the better.there is a mental barrier that you have get over or you will never understand what i am talking about.

bench
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: GoneAway on May 06, 2008, 05:21:46 AM
Thanx guys really appreciate it i will give the drop sets on the laterals a try that sounds like it could help alot with shape.

first of all, do you want shape or strength?

And benchmstr, How am i doing to much for delts? Mine is a pretty simple routine seen in alot of magazines.

that might be your problem - overtraining.

the magazines show routines mainly for those on steroids - who can handle the workload and usually just work one bodypart per week. plenty of rest time and a much faster recovery than natural trainers, assuming ur natural.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: natural al on May 06, 2008, 07:37:09 AM
I have lagging delts i cant seem to keep them up to par with the rest of my body because of them even my bench is very low. Wondering if you guys could please give me ANY advice on this matter below you will find my delt routine.


Side laterals, 15,15,12,10
DB presses, 10,8,8,6
Front bb presses,10,8,6,6
upright rows,10,10,10,10
rear delt flyes ( on an inclined bench ) 15,12,10,10

Please give me ANY help with shoulders as you guys can thank you

drop all the excessive warm up sets, this is fine:

Side laterals, 15,15,12,10

after that go right to your heavy sets, all you do with the excessive warm ups is waste energy so front BB press should work like this:

Front bb presses-6,6

and so on.

Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 06, 2008, 10:01:28 AM
Lol yeah guys im still natural, I want both strength and shape, But i probably should stop what ive been doing and listen.

So..... i should do less for shoulders and i could get more??
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: mass 04 on May 06, 2008, 10:09:41 AM
Lol yeah guys im still natural, I want both strength and shape, But i probably should stop what ive been doing and listen.

So..... i should do less for shoulders and i could get more??
I would personally do one press, a side and rear lateral and some upright rows with a bb or some db's.

Also try to space shoulder and chest workouts 2-3 days apart IMO.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 06, 2008, 10:24:51 AM
So..... i should do less for shoulders and i could get more??
yes, you've been overtraining

so when i do shoulder it usually goes as fallowes

side laterals-2X10 for warm-up only
standing shoulder press with Olympic bar-as many as i want
that sounds like a good plan, i will try this for a couple of months ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: benchmstr on May 06, 2008, 05:55:38 PM
yes, you've been overtraining
that sounds like a good plan, i will try this for a couple of months ;D ;D ;D
it works for me.

bench
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 06, 2008, 09:22:22 PM
So bench you do NO rear delt work then??
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: benchmstr on May 07, 2008, 03:15:12 AM
So bench you do NO rear delt work then??
go back and read,i do them usually once a week.

bench
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 07, 2008, 08:15:39 AM
so if i start with a routine like

bb presses 6x6
side laterals 3x10
rear laterals 3x10

would i do this twice or more a week??
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: mass 04 on May 07, 2008, 08:27:43 AM
so if i start with a routine like

bb presses 6x6
side laterals 3x10
rear laterals 3x10

would i do this twice or more a week??
I would do it once a week. Shoulders are involved in all chest and back stuff, even arms and legs to a certain degree. Hit them once and let them recover. IMO
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 07, 2008, 09:25:48 AM
so if i start with a routine like

bb presses 6x6
side laterals 3x10
rear laterals 3x10

would i do this twice or more a week??
yeah, but i would cut the sets down to 2 on laterals
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 07, 2008, 09:30:56 AM
Ok and would it be ok if i let the sets on the presses go like 10-10-8-8-6-6??

I just dont think my shoulders can handle that low of reps for overhead presses
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 07, 2008, 10:08:51 AM
Ok and would it be ok if i let the sets on the presses go like 10-10-8-8-6-6??

I just dont think my shoulders can handle that low of reps for overhead presses
yes, but don't go too fixated on reps, some days you may feel great and blow the weight out of the water, some days may suck and you will barely make it to rep number 4.  i usually do 4 work sets of presses, if it is a good day i may do six, if i feel like crap i may do only three, same with reps.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 07, 2008, 10:50:14 AM
yeah, but i would cut the sets down to 2 on laterals
You would still do a warmup with each lateral and then two heavier sets, right?
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 07, 2008, 11:04:21 AM
You would still do a warmup with each lateral and then two heavier sets, right?
no, after presses my shoulders should already be warmed up so i would jump directly into work sets on laterals.  it usually takes me 5-6 sets of lighter presses to warm up for heavy ones, so the total number of sets for presses is around 10 :o :o :o  on a really good day i may do something like

warmup:
45 x 2 x 20
95 x 2 x 15
135 x 1 x 12
155 x 1 x 8

work sets:
185 x 1 x 8
205 x 1 x 4
225 x 1 x 2

cool down set
135 until failure

side laterals
35 x 2 x 15

rear delt raises
35 x 2 x 12

on a so-so day i may stay on 185 and do more sets trying to get around 6 reps on each.

but if you feel you still need a warmup set for laterals, go with it, there is nothing wrong about it, always trust your gut in the gym.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 07, 2008, 12:54:55 PM
no, after presses my shoulders should already be warmed up so i would jump directly into work sets on laterals.  it usually takes me 5-6 sets of lighter presses to warm up for heavy ones, so the total number of sets for presses is around 10 :o :o :o  on a really good day i may do something like

warmup:
45 x 2 x 20
95 x 2 x 15
135 x 1 x 12
155 x 1 x 8

work sets:
185 x 1 x 8
205 x 1 x 4
225 x 1 x 2

cool down set
135 until failure

side laterals
35 x 2 x 15

rear delt raises
35 x 2 x 12

on a so-so day i may stay on 185 and do more sets trying to get around 6 reps on each.

but if you feel you still need a warmup set for laterals, go with it, there is nothing wrong about it, always trust your gut in the gym.
I always do at least 1 warm up on every exercise, no matter the order in my workout. I think it helps prepare for the movement. Maybe it's just mental preperation, but it helps.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 07, 2008, 01:26:44 PM
I always do at least 1 warm up on every exercise, no matter the order in my workout. I think it helps prepare for the movement. Maybe it's just mental preperation, but it helps.
i do it too but only on "heavy" exercises.  for example, after shoulders i do close grip benches for triceps, i do 1 warmup set with 135 then jump straight to 225.  but i never do it for things like flyes or laterals.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 07, 2008, 09:24:19 PM
Ok i tried this routine today for shoulders,

Db presses

1 warmup- 15
6 sets, 12-10-10-8-8-8

side laterals
3 sets, 10-10-10

rear laterals
3 sets, 10-10-10

does that sound good? Because it sure felt good today, I see what you guys mean now i dont feel so burnt out tonight as i did last week with my old routine.

Thanx
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 07, 2008, 09:31:33 PM
Ok triple you seem full of advice would you also say that 20 sets is to much for chest and the back ( Both seperate ) or is that not enough?
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: wes on May 08, 2008, 04:02:50 AM
If you need to do 20 sets for any bodypart,you aren`t training hard enough.

Get in,bust ass, and put more into less.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 08, 2008, 05:10:44 AM
Ok triple you seem full of advice would you also say that 20 sets is to much for chest and the back ( Both seperate ) or is that not enough?
waaaay too much, i only 7 works sets for chest and 10 for middle & upper back, i would never do more than 12 work sets per bodypart.  wes is right, if you need 20 or more sets, you are not training hard enough.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 08, 2008, 08:17:16 AM
Ok then should this be good, 4 exercises at 2-3 sets apiece?
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 08, 2008, 08:33:32 AM
yep
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: jpm101 on May 08, 2008, 09:11:12 AM
There are a half a dozen outstanding exercises I can think of for delt thickness/mass  but theregular lateral  and front raise are not one of them. The lateral raise may have a place in some special delt routines  (see below..... as well as pre-exhaust, detail/refinement work, etc) but hardly ever would anyone need front raises. Serious compound movements trumps them both for pure muscle mass gained.

Also that video clip offered for the push-press looks more like a jerk-press. With the push press, the bar is resting on the heels of the hand (bar inline with the wrist/forearm for better leverage & power as opposed to the regular thumb hooked over the bar grip) and usually taken off a power rack. There is a slight knee/hip thrust at the start of the push, pushing (not pressing) the bar overhead. That bar resting on the heel of the hand is also used by a lot of heavy benchers.

If you want to come to the point of being forced to buy new shirts and jackets because your whole shoulder girdle increases in muscle size, than consider a few of these.

1) Front press, preferred off a rack. But just press the bar about 3/4's of the way up. This keeps the delts (and tension on them) doing the blunt of the work. This also builds the lateral delt head and to a lesser degree, the rear. Apply the push or jerk version here if you wish. Control the bar at all times.

2) Press behind the neck (PBN). 3/4 range again. If you wish to call upon the traps and triceps more, than complete and lock overhead. Same as with the front press/push. PBN's also affect the front delts. Do not lower the bar too much. Touch the back of the neck/upper trap, never lower.

3) DB side press. Outstanding delt builder. Not to be confused with the regular DB press. One arm at a time, keeping the free arm holding on to something solid for support. A lot of weight can be used in this one hand version after awhile. Most guy's will handle around the 100 lb plus DB mark before they know it. Keep fingers forward on the DB and inline straight with the body.

4) High-Pulls, going as high as the lower pec/upper ribs (solar plexus about). Keeping the grip where you have a 90 degree angle between the upper arm and forearm at the top position. So this means a wide grip on the bar. This also affects the rear delts strongly.

5) Up-Right Rows. About a 10 to 12 inch grip. Keep the bar close to the body during the lift and pull to the upper chest. People have problems when allowing the bar to travel too far away from the body, which can produce too much stress on the shoulders themselves. With any pulling movement, it can affect the posterior delt head. This can be a outstanding exercise for the upper body when done correctly.  Trouble is, most guy's do not do it correctly because of improper warm-ups and rushing the weight on the bar.

6) Power Lateral Raises. This is not your fathers lateral raise. This is the special heavy cheating version, where a lot of weight can be used on the DB's. Can be done one arm at a time or the two hand version.  Start with the DB's in front of the body. Bend forward a bit and  give a healthy heave ho, swinging them to about shoulder height. Try holding at that top position for a second and that lower. The elbows will be bent quite a bit during this exercise, allowing more involvement with the delts this way.

Pick two (3 sets each) or three (2 sets each) of the above exercises. With mass in mind, 6 to 9 reps. Hit the delts twice a week. Probably allowing 6 to 8 weeks on this type of heavy focused shoulder training. The posterior delts can be hit well with these pulling movements, as well as the cheat lateral raises.

Ask any Pro if partial and cheating rep's work (as suggested above) for mass. If he's honest you will get an overwhelming Yes. Good Luck.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 08, 2008, 11:05:26 PM
If you need to do 20 sets for any bodypart,you aren`t training hard enough.

Get in,bust ass, and put more into less.
jay cutler disagrees with you.


and mike mentzer says even two sets is over kill.

dorian says sets dont matter, intensity does.

melvins trainer would sa its all about time under tension.


talk to dante and a workout is useless without stretching after wa5rds.




get my point?  ;)
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: wes on May 09, 2008, 05:21:33 AM
I hear ya`,but I wouldn`t do 20 sets exclusively but I would possibly do it occasionally for a shock.

The key is finding the right amount of volume that works for you.

20 sets usually only works for easy gainers/the genetically elite.

Bradford Presses are great for mass also,and try Laterals Behind The Back for side delts............pre-exhaust Super-Set them,laterals first.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 11, 2008, 11:46:17 AM
looking to the severely chemically enhanced for training ideas, from any angle be it "they say it works" or "they all have different ideas" is a fool's errand.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: coltrane on May 11, 2008, 02:52:05 PM
i think that many of us do too few pressing movements and too many isolation type movements.

Start doing more presses and fewer isolation movements.  This will build better size...more of the rounded look.   Then just finish off with a few burn outs of isolations.

i do something like this once a week...

1.  DB presses  40poundersx 20, 50x20 60x20, 80x13, 90x10 95x8 75x8 60xfailure
2.  Seated rack front presses (pins at shoulder level)  135x10 155x10 165x8 180x8 135x failure
3.  seated front db extentions
4.  seated side delts
5.  rear delt bent over flyes.

i have found that doing more pressing gives better results...
sometimes we get into the cycle of doing isolation movements cause they're easier to do.  stick w more presses.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 12, 2008, 10:13:56 PM
Well if i were to train each bodypart twice per week, to bring everything up alot better, What would be a good split for that type of training ??
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 13, 2008, 08:50:16 PM
Well if i were to train each bodypart twice per week, to bring everything up alot better, What would be a good split for that type of training ??

if you are a natural, do each body part once a week, perhaps except abs and calves, otherwise it is easy to over train. 

unless you do olympic weightlifting, where you would do five sets of squats at the end of each session three times a week....
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 13, 2008, 09:26:10 PM
Ok thanx alot triple
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 14, 2008, 08:58:26 AM
i think a natural is best off only training 3 times per week.

a split like this

monday chest shoulders triceps

wednesday  back biceps hamstrings

friday  quads calves
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 14, 2008, 07:27:13 PM
i think a natural is best off only training 3 times per week.

a split like this

monday chest shoulders triceps

wednesday  back biceps hamstrings

friday  quads calves

Too much per day for a natural. Most surely would burn out on that much work.


Are you sure you know everything ??? :-\
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 14, 2008, 07:30:29 PM
Too much per day for a natural. Most surely would burn out on that much work.


Are you sure you know everything ??? :-\
NO THAT WOULD BE H.I.T. STYLE TRAINING THERE BRO ! 
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 14, 2008, 07:40:50 PM
NO THAT WOULD BE H.I.T. STYLE TRAINING THERE BRO ! 
Not for a natural, not if they are actually working out

Chest, shoulders, triceps?........How effective do you think you could train triceps after using them on chest and shoulders? How effective could you train shoulders after pounding chest?

Remember, candidildo, we're talking a natural, not a doped up junkie like yourself. ;)
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 14, 2008, 10:02:35 PM
Could a split like this work effectively enough?

Monday chest/back/abs

wednesday tris/bis

friday shoulders/legs/abs
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: triple_pickle on May 15, 2008, 05:26:19 AM
well, it is possible to do a split suggested by candidizzle, i tried it once and it takes a couple of weeks to adjust to it, especially to hitting shoulders after chest but it is doable.  of course, you cut down on the number of sets.

the other split, i would do chest & back, shoulders & arms, and legs.  it is possible to do quick supersets for arms after legs, but usually i am too tired after legs to do anything.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Painlayer69 on May 15, 2008, 07:42:51 AM
Yeah thats why i put legs after shoulders on the last day, legs fuckin kill me
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 15, 2008, 10:06:25 AM
Not for a natural, not if they are actually working out

Chest, shoulders, triceps?........How effective do you think you could train triceps after using them on chest and shoulders? How effective could you train shoulders after pounding chest?

Remember, candidildo, we're talking a natural, not a doped up junkie like yourself. ;)
the tone in which your making your statements is quite funny to me, chaos; becaus ei can tell you ACTUALLY believe you know what your talking about.


lol


h.i.t training bro. not high volume.   

and yes, that is BECAUSE they are natural. i wouldnt recommend this kind of training for some who was on gear.  gear= hormones.  h.i.t = hormones.  high volume= satellite cell activation. no hormones.    satellite cells are no good without hormones. you can grow without satellite cells, you cant grow without hormones.    so for a nhatural, stimulate the hormones. = h.i.t  3 times per week.


now please shut up conehead
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: haider on May 15, 2008, 10:39:15 AM
h.i.t. is more like a fullbody workout 3x a week for "teh hormonal boost", candi.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 15, 2008, 11:55:01 AM
h.i.t. is more like a fullbody workout 3x a week for "teh hormonal boost", candi.
i think that would lead to over training though. but i know what your saying.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 15, 2008, 01:18:39 PM
candy, chaos is, no joke, twice your muscular size. you've lost a lot of weight and you're quite lean, but if you're arguing with chaos about what will build muscle you've picked the wrong sparring partner.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 15, 2008, 01:21:32 PM
candy, chaos is, no joke, twice your muscular size. you've lost a lot of weight and you're quite lean, but if you're arguing with chaos about what will build muscle you've picked the wrong sparring partner.
okay post up a pic of chaos as a natural, dont care what age, and we will compare him as a natural to me as a 16 year old natural who had been training for a year and a half.  we will see who knows what.

.....


im waiting
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 06:52:39 PM
okay post up a pic of chaos as a natural, dont care what age, and we will compare him as a natural to me as a 16 year old natural who had been training for a year and a half.  we will see who knows what.

.....


im waiting
Here's the only pic you'll see of me tiny, 270, 6'2".  What is your ht/wt again? :-*
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 07:14:58 PM
Here's the only pic you'll see of me tiny, 270, 6'2".  What is your ht/wt again? :-*

well now he's claimed that when he was at his biggest (a time which he has no pictures of, conveniently enough), he looked a lot bigger and stronger than me, so he may have even been bigger than you. ::)

i'm reminded of an old joke:

you spy a dollar at the middle of a stretch of road. at one end is candidizzle weighing 240 pounds and looking thick and solid. at another is pumpster looking like an NPC competitor. who gets it first?

answer: you do, because the other two AREN'T REAL.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 07:17:46 PM
well now he's claimed that when he was at his biggest (a time which he has no pictures of, conveniently enough), he looked a lot bigger and stronger than me, so he may have even been bigger than you. ::)

i'm reminded of an old joke:

you spy a dollar at the middle of a stretch of road. at one end is candidizzle weighing 240 pounds and looking thick and solid. at another is pumpster looking like an NPC competitor. who gets it first?

answer: you do, because the other two AREN'T REAL.
LOL, I'm copying this because I'm sure it will be deleted soon. ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:21:42 PM
Here's the only pic you'll see of me tiny, 270, 6'2".  What is your ht/wt again? :-*
what a monster...  ::)
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 07:24:45 PM
what a monster...  ::)

270 and you can see the line on his tricep in that goofy pose.

yes, i would say that qualifies as "pretty fucking big".
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: pumpster on May 16, 2008, 07:27:17 PM
Beevis and Buthead Chaos and Magoo are trolling again while backslapping one another like goons. Contribute training advice kidz.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 07:27:48 PM
what a monster...  ::)
And where were your sats and comparison pic ???
okay post up a pic of chaos as a natural, dont care what age, and we will compare him as a natural to me as a 16 year old natural who had been training for a year and a half.  we will see who knows what.

.....


im waiting


I'm waiting.........
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:28:22 PM
270 and you can see the line on his tricep in that goofy pose.

yes, i would say that qualifies as "pretty fucking big".
call it what you will
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:30:37 PM
And where were your sats and comparison pic ???

I'm waiting.........
i dont know if i have a shot in a tank top from 50 yards away doing an epic thumbs up pose to hide my sunken chest..


this is the closest thing i have got to that and im either 16 or 17 here
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 07:31:07 PM
call it what you will

you're falling into the trap of thinking anyone with a little more BF than you has either as much or less muscle than you do, if only they'd diet down.

this is incorrect, and it would be a GOOD idea to avoid continuing in that vein. you get plenty of props for building a good body out of what was initially the stay-puft marshmallow man, but don't let that go to your head and believe that you've got more muscle than anyone who argues with you.

BTW, there is not one shot of you where you look remotely as large as chaos. not one. even your best picture looking the biggest you can find, it is incredibly obvious he has a lot more muscle than you do. please, accept this. it is not debatable.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:32:38 PM
lol i just realized how blurry that is okay heres one from that same day just less blurry.....  i dont know whats up with the blur on that shot
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:34:10 PM
hahah i guess i must have hated the way i looked blurred out those shots.. okay well let me see,,, got any back shots?  these i am 17
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 07:35:34 PM
nice lats.

he still clearly has 100 pounds on you, maybe 30-ish of which are fat.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:36:04 PM
ok heres a 17 year old tha you should be able to own pretty easy...
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:36:57 PM
nice lats.

he still clearly has 100 pounds on you, maybe 30-ish of which are fat.
bro not even when i was a crack head did i ever weigh 170... call it heavy bones if you dont wanna call it muscle but regarless even at my skinnyest i weighed 180..
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 07:37:40 PM
you're falling into the trap of thinking anyone with a little more BF than you has either as much or less muscle than you do, if only they'd diet down.

this is incorrect, and it would be a GOOD idea to avoid continuing in that vein. you get plenty of props for building a good body out of what was initially the stay-puft marshmallow man, but don't let that go to your head and believe that you've got more muscle than anyone who argues with you.

BTW, there is not one shot of you where you look remotely as large as chaos. not one. even your best picture looking the biggest you can find, it is incredibly obvious he has a lot more muscle than you do. please, accept this. it is not debatable.
Thanks Magoo, but I just don't think people like candidildo and pumpedturd get it. Candidildo has done a decent job of turning his physique around, too bad he's hopped on the juice so young with no real base, but that's his choice. For him or the pictureless pumpedturd to run their mouths like their opinions are the end all be all of training is just ridiculous.

They will never learn, if candidildo ever decides to man up and train with me a Koloseum, maybe then he'll "get it". LMAO. ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 07:40:18 PM
bro not even when i was a crack head did i ever weigh 170... call it heavy bones if you dont wanna call it muscle but regarless even at my skinnyest i weighed 180..

well then you've got heavy bones and the muscle mass of someone who would weigh 170. the point is, chaos CLEARLY has a lot more muscle on his frame than you do. and it would be nice if you'd just stop lying and admit that this mystical bulking cycle of yours where you were all huge and thick is fiction because it's just you digging a deeper hole for yourself.

Thanks Magoo, but I just don't think people like candidildo and pumpedturd get it. Candidildo has done a decent job of turning his physique around, too bad he's hopped on the juice so young with no real base, but that's his choice. For him or the pictureless pumpedturd to run their mouths like their opinions are the end all be all of training is just ridiculous.

They will never learn, if candidildo ever decides to man up and train with me a Koloseum, maybe then he'll "get it". LMAO. ;D

i started posting here instead of the G&O and alpha boards because i was annoyed with the stupidity and flaming, but it's here in spades as well. and the ironic thing is... you and i are involved and we're NOT the ones doing it. :P
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:40:43 PM
Thanks Magoo, but I just don't think people like candidildo and pumpedturd get it. Candidildo has done a decent job of turning his physique around, too bad he's hopped on the juice so young with no real base, but that's his choice. For him or the pictureless pumpedturd to run their mouths like their opinions are the end all be all of training is just ridiculous.

They will never learn, if candidildo ever decides to man up and train with me a Koloseum, maybe then he'll "get it". LMAO. ;D
no real base???



Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 07:43:00 PM
no real base???

not NEARLY enough to consider gear. like, not even CLOSE. you've got maybe just enough that your tendons won't explode, but you're light-years behind what would be called adequate natural development to necessitate drugs.

it, honestly, makes me wonder if you hadn't started already but now you're just owning up to it.  :-\
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 07:44:13 PM
no real base???




Exactly, thanks for posting the pics to prove my point. The side shot you look halfway decent, good for a 17 year old, I'll give you that.

The back shot....wow, just terrible and I'd delete it if I were you. Thinner than an Olson Twin.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 07:45:31 PM

i started posting here instead of the G&O and alpha boards because i was annoyed with the stupidity and flaming, but it's here in spades as well. and the ironic thing is... you and i are involved and we're NOT the ones doing it. :P
LOL, funny isn't it? ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:48:47 PM
i hate talking about gear on tany board but the gear board but ill address that statement anywways

okay first off

test only cycles are dangerous to tendons and ligaments. true. but when you incoporate into that cycle an anabolic agent the likes of decca , it helps grow the tendons and ligaments at that accelerated rate. and also helps keep joints healthy with the heavy weights.

and there is no such thinkg as "too early"..  true, i think its stupid to go first thing ontto gear...never working out to woring out on gear..like billyguns and others.. but once you know how to workout, have developed muscles that have seperation and are shaped correctly, then i dont think it matters whether you wait untill your done growing "naturally" (whats unnatrual about stimulating protein synthesis anyways? LOL ) OR NOT.

GUYS LIKE ARNOLD, LEE PRIESTM, SHAWN RAY, FLX WHEELER, JAY CUTLER,.. the greatest physiques in our sport..they all started juicing at 18 or younger....   because EVEN WITH  steroids, building muscle stilll takes time
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 07:50:18 PM
i hate talking about gear on tany board but the gear board but ill address that statement anywways

okay first off

test only cycles are dangerous to tendons and ligaments. true. but when you incoporate into that cycle an anabolic agent the likes of decca , it helps grow the tendons and ligaments at that accelerated rate. and also helps keep joints healthy with the heavy weights.

and there is no such thinkg as "too early"..  true, i think its stupid to go first thing ontto gear...never working out to woring out on gear..like billyguns and others.. but once you know how to workout, have developed muscles that have seperation and are shaped correctly, then i dont think it matters whether you wait untill your done growing "naturally" (whats unnatrual about stimulating protein synthesis anyways? LOL ) OR NOT.

GUYS LIKE ARNOLD, LEE PRIESTM, SHAWN RAY, FLX WHEELER, JAY CUTLER,.. the greatest physiques in our sport..they all started juicing at 18 or younger....   because EVEN WITH  steroids, building muscle stilll takes time
And they'll all be on it their entire lives. ;)
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:51:20 PM
And they'll all be on it their entire lives. ;)
i cant speak for them, but thats something im willing to accept if it does happen to me, and i wont blame anyone but myself. and i wont regret it either.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 07:52:17 PM
but okay guys enough with the steroid talk i dont like it i dont like seeming like its the only thing because its onot its just a means to an end we can talk this via p/m/ if youd like
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 07:52:18 PM
i cant speak for them, but thats something im willing to accept if it does happen to me, and i wont blame anyone but myself. and i wont regret it either.
AHHHH, to be young and stupid. ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 07:58:36 PM
GUYS LIKE ARNOLD, LEE PRIESTM, SHAWN RAY, FLX WHEELER, JAY CUTLER,.. the greatest physiques in our sport..they all started juicing at 18 or younger....   because EVEN WITH  steroids, building muscle stilll takes time

and this explains every negative post i have ever launched at you.

you are modeling yourself after a handful of incredibly elite IFBB pros. when jay cutler was 18 and natural he made the three of us look like starving ethiopians. arnold at 16 had a build that put yours at 18 to absolute shame. ray? freak of his own kind. and we all know how well heavy juicing treated flex.

you read magazines, interviews with IFBB pros and think that's a logical model to follow. it's why you diet so obsessively, you train so needlessly complex, and you're on steroids before you're old enough to buy alcohol. at this point i doubt i'll be able to knock any sense into you, all i can say is i hope in 10 years when you aren't even a mid-level NPC competitor let alone a Mr O competitor it was all worth the damage you've done.

but okay guys enough with the steroid talk i dont like it i dont like seeming like its the only thing because its onot its just a means to an end we can talk this via p/m/ if youd like

no, this is an important discussion to have publicly because it illuminates the problem inherent in your training advice. you come at things thinking that you can model yourself after the top 0.00001% of trainers, people who have insane genetics and grow on ANY training protocol, largely because they have such fantastic genetics for responding to steroids.

a less-than-gifted trainer on steroids, let alone a natural one, would be an absolute fool to think that these are viable templates to follow.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 08:07:59 PM
and this explains every negative post i have ever launched at you.

you are modeling yourself after a handful of incredibly elite IFBB pros. when jay cutler was 18 and natural he made the three of us look like starving ethiopians. arnold at 16 had a build that put yours at 18 to absolute shame. ray? freak of his own kind. and we all know how well heavy juicing treated flex.

you read magazines, interviews with IFBB pros and think that's a logical model to follow. it's why you diet so obsessively, you train so needlessly complex, and you're on steroids before you're old enough to buy alcohol. at this point i doubt i'll be able to knock any sense into you, all i can say is i hope in 10 years when you aren't even a mid-level NPC competitor let alone a Mr O competitor it was all worth the damage you've done.

no, this is an important discussion to have publicly because it illuminates the problem inherent in your training advice. you come at things thinking that you can model yourself after the top 0.00001% of trainers, people who have insane genetics and grow on ANY training protocol, largely because they have such fantastic genetics for responding to steroids.

a less-than-gifted trainer on steroids, let alone a natural one, would be an absolute fool to think that these are viable templates to follow.

SSSSSLLLLLAAAAPPPP!!!
;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: MisterMagoo on May 16, 2008, 08:20:01 PM

SSSSSLLLLLAAAAPPPP!!!
;D

haha, one thing that always bugged me out is that everyone agrees that you can't take paul dillet's training advice because he just grew on genetics, but they seem to think that someone like yates or cutler grew on hard work and dedication. they're ALL 90% drugs and genetics, that's why so many of them admit to eating poorly even when dieting.

chad nichols once said he was "impressed" with ronnie because he ate cleanly 80% of the time. on five meals a day, that's four clean and one shitty meal daily. and that's "impressive" dedication according to the IFBB's most prolific nutritionist. he said he had to fight with flex to eat cleanly EVER, and if i'm not mistaken dex has said he does no real cardio and hardly diets to get ready for shows.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 16, 2008, 08:24:35 PM
magoo i wont respond in any kind of way trying to defend myself. i ont care much of what yout hink of me, my genetics, or my body.


and i just got done writing up a big post about who i listen to when it comes t training and al about the science of spurring muscle growth, but you know what? i wont wast my time on that either. because i can post 10diffferent peer reviewed studies and articles from real scientists on the cellular mechanics of causing muscle growth and protein synthesis and you would still think your right and im wrong.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 16, 2008, 08:30:20 PM
magoo i wont respond in any kind of way trying to defend myself. i ont care much of what yout hink of me, my genetics, or my body.


and i just got done writing up a big post about who i listen to when it comes t training and al about the science of spurring muscle growth, but you know what? i wont wast my time on that either. because i can post 10diffferent peer reviewed studies and articles from real scientists on the cellular mechanics of causing muscle growth and protein synthesis and you would still think your right and im wrong.
LOL.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Beener on May 16, 2008, 09:00:37 PM
270 and you can see the line on his tricep in that goofy pose.

yes, i would say that qualifies as "pretty fucking big".

what line? i see a slight shadow..
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: _bruce_ on May 17, 2008, 02:17:27 PM
Candidizzle...

1. arms + delts look great.
2. you substituted one addiction with another.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 17, 2008, 02:34:48 PM
Candidizzle...

1. arms + delts look great.
2. you substituted one addiction with another.
thanks bro i guess i do look alright there tryingt o get better
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: Emmortal on May 17, 2008, 03:24:23 PM
and this explains every negative post i have ever launched at you.

arnold at 16 had a build that put yours at 18 to absolute shame.

Just as an FYI, it's pretty well known that Arnold started doing steroids at 13, 14 at the latest.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 17, 2008, 04:35:21 PM
Just as an FYI, it's pretty well known that Arnold started doing steroids at 13, 14 at the latest.
i was going to point that out it but its useless magoo thnks he  knows everything
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 17, 2008, 08:17:53 PM
i was going to point that out it but its useless magoo thnks he  knows everything
So you think you're comparable to Arnold? Is that how you justify going from one drug to another?

Military press while standing builds bulk in the shoulder.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 17, 2008, 08:34:14 PM
So you think you're comparable to Arnold? LOL ! Is that how you justify going from one drug to another?

Military press while standing builds bulk in the shoulder. did i say otherwise or contradict this?
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 17, 2008, 08:37:01 PM

Epic fuckin up the quote function ::)

"pumpedturd" said I have to include workouts tip or he'll delete my posts.

By constantly bringing up who started using at a young age, you are defending what you know is wrong, or convincing yourself you have their genetics.


Stiff legged deads are excellent for hamstrings.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 17, 2008, 08:47:34 PM
nope all i am saying is tha if you want to reach your ow personal best then it'd be a wise thing to do


why are you so concerned with my actions anyways
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: haider on May 17, 2008, 08:49:29 PM
nope all i am saying is tha if you want to reach your ow personal best then it'd be a wise thing to do


why are you so concerned with my actions anyways
i hope you're not pursuing bb'ing as a career? are u going to school?

Why do u wanan be freakishly huge anyway? let's get an honest asnwer.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 17, 2008, 08:50:19 PM


why are you so concerned with my actions anyways
OK, it was bound to come out sooner or later, Candidizzle............. .......





















I am your father. Can we hug now?
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 17, 2008, 08:56:45 PM
i hope you're not pursuing bb'ing as a career? are u going to school?

Why do u wanan be freakishly huge anyway? let's get an honest asnwer.
no i dont know what kind of careeer i want..  right now i am just starting personal training though.

i dont want to be freakishly huge. your looking at it wrong.

 ive never been a small guy compared to average cats i dont got some kind of napoleon complex. its not about that.

its abut that i love to train, i love to manifest changes in body .. and i strive for perfection..  this is the one thing i want most and i love doing.. 

the fact that i like the physiques of guys wo are "freakishly huge" is not because they are big and intimidating its because it takes freakishly huge ma to make the poses look good.   guys like zane or whatever, in my opinion, look like total and complete garbage..
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 17, 2008, 08:58:26 PM
OK, it was bound to come out sooner or later, Candidizzle............. .......

I am your father. Can we hug now?

lol my dad is the farthest thign fro you.. haha.. chaos , lol, yeah hhes chaos alrigh t  ;D real laid back uguy whos a fire chief and enjoys to drink coffee and read th paper while eating german chocalate cake  ;D  maybe go to the driving rage or ride his fatboy harley firefighter edition around everyonce in a while.. ;D
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: chaos on May 17, 2008, 09:07:17 PM
lol my dad is the farthest thign fro you.. haha.. chaos , lol, yeah hhes chaos alrigh t  ;D real laid back uguy whos a fire chief and enjoys to drink coffee and read th paper while eating german chocalate cake  ;D  maybe go to the driving rage or ride his fatboy harley firefighter edition around everyonce in a while.. ;D
I know son, I know.


It's called an online persona, boy. ;)


And take out the trash, the kitchen is starting to smell like your room.
Title: Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
Post by: candidizzle on May 17, 2008, 09:26:56 PM
hahaha how right you are !