Author Topic: More or less than this for shoulders.  (Read 14142 times)

benchmstr

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2008, 05:55:38 PM »
yes, you've been overtraining
that sounds like a good plan, i will try this for a couple of months ;D ;D ;D
it works for me.

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Painlayer69

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2008, 09:22:22 PM »
So bench you do NO rear delt work then??
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benchmstr

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2008, 03:15:12 AM »
So bench you do NO rear delt work then??
go back and read,i do them usually once a week.

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Painlayer69

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2008, 08:15:39 AM »
so if i start with a routine like

bb presses 6x6
side laterals 3x10
rear laterals 3x10

would i do this twice or more a week??
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mass 04

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2008, 08:27:43 AM »
so if i start with a routine like

bb presses 6x6
side laterals 3x10
rear laterals 3x10

would i do this twice or more a week??
I would do it once a week. Shoulders are involved in all chest and back stuff, even arms and legs to a certain degree. Hit them once and let them recover. IMO

triple_pickle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2008, 09:25:48 AM »
so if i start with a routine like

bb presses 6x6
side laterals 3x10
rear laterals 3x10

would i do this twice or more a week??
yeah, but i would cut the sets down to 2 on laterals

Painlayer69

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2008, 09:30:56 AM »
Ok and would it be ok if i let the sets on the presses go like 10-10-8-8-6-6??

I just dont think my shoulders can handle that low of reps for overhead presses
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triple_pickle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2008, 10:08:51 AM »
Ok and would it be ok if i let the sets on the presses go like 10-10-8-8-6-6??

I just dont think my shoulders can handle that low of reps for overhead presses
yes, but don't go too fixated on reps, some days you may feel great and blow the weight out of the water, some days may suck and you will barely make it to rep number 4.  i usually do 4 work sets of presses, if it is a good day i may do six, if i feel like crap i may do only three, same with reps.

chaos

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2008, 10:50:14 AM »
yeah, but i would cut the sets down to 2 on laterals
You would still do a warmup with each lateral and then two heavier sets, right?
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

triple_pickle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2008, 11:04:21 AM »
You would still do a warmup with each lateral and then two heavier sets, right?
no, after presses my shoulders should already be warmed up so i would jump directly into work sets on laterals.  it usually takes me 5-6 sets of lighter presses to warm up for heavy ones, so the total number of sets for presses is around 10 :o :o :o  on a really good day i may do something like

warmup:
45 x 2 x 20
95 x 2 x 15
135 x 1 x 12
155 x 1 x 8

work sets:
185 x 1 x 8
205 x 1 x 4
225 x 1 x 2

cool down set
135 until failure

side laterals
35 x 2 x 15

rear delt raises
35 x 2 x 12

on a so-so day i may stay on 185 and do more sets trying to get around 6 reps on each.

but if you feel you still need a warmup set for laterals, go with it, there is nothing wrong about it, always trust your gut in the gym.

chaos

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2008, 12:54:55 PM »
no, after presses my shoulders should already be warmed up so i would jump directly into work sets on laterals.  it usually takes me 5-6 sets of lighter presses to warm up for heavy ones, so the total number of sets for presses is around 10 :o :o :o  on a really good day i may do something like

warmup:
45 x 2 x 20
95 x 2 x 15
135 x 1 x 12
155 x 1 x 8

work sets:
185 x 1 x 8
205 x 1 x 4
225 x 1 x 2

cool down set
135 until failure

side laterals
35 x 2 x 15

rear delt raises
35 x 2 x 12

on a so-so day i may stay on 185 and do more sets trying to get around 6 reps on each.

but if you feel you still need a warmup set for laterals, go with it, there is nothing wrong about it, always trust your gut in the gym.
I always do at least 1 warm up on every exercise, no matter the order in my workout. I think it helps prepare for the movement. Maybe it's just mental preperation, but it helps.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

triple_pickle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2008, 01:26:44 PM »
I always do at least 1 warm up on every exercise, no matter the order in my workout. I think it helps prepare for the movement. Maybe it's just mental preperation, but it helps.
i do it too but only on "heavy" exercises.  for example, after shoulders i do close grip benches for triceps, i do 1 warmup set with 135 then jump straight to 225.  but i never do it for things like flyes or laterals.

Painlayer69

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2008, 09:24:19 PM »
Ok i tried this routine today for shoulders,

Db presses

1 warmup- 15
6 sets, 12-10-10-8-8-8

side laterals
3 sets, 10-10-10

rear laterals
3 sets, 10-10-10

does that sound good? Because it sure felt good today, I see what you guys mean now i dont feel so burnt out tonight as i did last week with my old routine.

Thanx
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Painlayer69

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2008, 09:31:33 PM »
Ok triple you seem full of advice would you also say that 20 sets is to much for chest and the back ( Both seperate ) or is that not enough?
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wes

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2008, 04:02:50 AM »
If you need to do 20 sets for any bodypart,you aren`t training hard enough.

Get in,bust ass, and put more into less.

triple_pickle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2008, 05:10:44 AM »
Ok triple you seem full of advice would you also say that 20 sets is to much for chest and the back ( Both seperate ) or is that not enough?
waaaay too much, i only 7 works sets for chest and 10 for middle & upper back, i would never do more than 12 work sets per bodypart.  wes is right, if you need 20 or more sets, you are not training hard enough.

Painlayer69

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2008, 08:17:16 AM »
Ok then should this be good, 4 exercises at 2-3 sets apiece?
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triple_pickle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2008, 08:33:32 AM »
yep

jpm101

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2008, 09:11:12 AM »
There are a half a dozen outstanding exercises I can think of for delt thickness/mass  but theregular lateral  and front raise are not one of them. The lateral raise may have a place in some special delt routines  (see below..... as well as pre-exhaust, detail/refinement work, etc) but hardly ever would anyone need front raises. Serious compound movements trumps them both for pure muscle mass gained.

Also that video clip offered for the push-press looks more like a jerk-press. With the push press, the bar is resting on the heels of the hand (bar inline with the wrist/forearm for better leverage & power as opposed to the regular thumb hooked over the bar grip) and usually taken off a power rack. There is a slight knee/hip thrust at the start of the push, pushing (not pressing) the bar overhead. That bar resting on the heel of the hand is also used by a lot of heavy benchers.

If you want to come to the point of being forced to buy new shirts and jackets because your whole shoulder girdle increases in muscle size, than consider a few of these.

1) Front press, preferred off a rack. But just press the bar about 3/4's of the way up. This keeps the delts (and tension on them) doing the blunt of the work. This also builds the lateral delt head and to a lesser degree, the rear. Apply the push or jerk version here if you wish. Control the bar at all times.

2) Press behind the neck (PBN). 3/4 range again. If you wish to call upon the traps and triceps more, than complete and lock overhead. Same as with the front press/push. PBN's also affect the front delts. Do not lower the bar too much. Touch the back of the neck/upper trap, never lower.

3) DB side press. Outstanding delt builder. Not to be confused with the regular DB press. One arm at a time, keeping the free arm holding on to something solid for support. A lot of weight can be used in this one hand version after awhile. Most guy's will handle around the 100 lb plus DB mark before they know it. Keep fingers forward on the DB and inline straight with the body.

4) High-Pulls, going as high as the lower pec/upper ribs (solar plexus about). Keeping the grip where you have a 90 degree angle between the upper arm and forearm at the top position. So this means a wide grip on the bar. This also affects the rear delts strongly.

5) Up-Right Rows. About a 10 to 12 inch grip. Keep the bar close to the body during the lift and pull to the upper chest. People have problems when allowing the bar to travel too far away from the body, which can produce too much stress on the shoulders themselves. With any pulling movement, it can affect the posterior delt head. This can be a outstanding exercise for the upper body when done correctly.  Trouble is, most guy's do not do it correctly because of improper warm-ups and rushing the weight on the bar.

6) Power Lateral Raises. This is not your fathers lateral raise. This is the special heavy cheating version, where a lot of weight can be used on the DB's. Can be done one arm at a time or the two hand version.  Start with the DB's in front of the body. Bend forward a bit and  give a healthy heave ho, swinging them to about shoulder height. Try holding at that top position for a second and that lower. The elbows will be bent quite a bit during this exercise, allowing more involvement with the delts this way.

Pick two (3 sets each) or three (2 sets each) of the above exercises. With mass in mind, 6 to 9 reps. Hit the delts twice a week. Probably allowing 6 to 8 weeks on this type of heavy focused shoulder training. The posterior delts can be hit well with these pulling movements, as well as the cheat lateral raises.

Ask any Pro if partial and cheating rep's work (as suggested above) for mass. If he's honest you will get an overwhelming Yes. Good Luck.
F

candidizzle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2008, 11:05:26 PM »
If you need to do 20 sets for any bodypart,you aren`t training hard enough.

Get in,bust ass, and put more into less.
jay cutler disagrees with you.


and mike mentzer says even two sets is over kill.

dorian says sets dont matter, intensity does.

melvins trainer would sa its all about time under tension.


talk to dante and a workout is useless without stretching after wa5rds.




get my point?  ;)

wes

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2008, 05:21:33 AM »
I hear ya`,but I wouldn`t do 20 sets exclusively but I would possibly do it occasionally for a shock.

The key is finding the right amount of volume that works for you.

20 sets usually only works for easy gainers/the genetically elite.

Bradford Presses are great for mass also,and try Laterals Behind The Back for side delts............pre-exhaust Super-Set them,laterals first.

MisterMagoo

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2008, 11:46:17 AM »
looking to the severely chemically enhanced for training ideas, from any angle be it "they say it works" or "they all have different ideas" is a fool's errand.

coltrane

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2008, 02:52:05 PM »
i think that many of us do too few pressing movements and too many isolation type movements.

Start doing more presses and fewer isolation movements.  This will build better size...more of the rounded look.   Then just finish off with a few burn outs of isolations.

i do something like this once a week...

1.  DB presses  40poundersx 20, 50x20 60x20, 80x13, 90x10 95x8 75x8 60xfailure
2.  Seated rack front presses (pins at shoulder level)  135x10 155x10 165x8 180x8 135x failure
3.  seated front db extentions
4.  seated side delts
5.  rear delt bent over flyes.

i have found that doing more pressing gives better results...
sometimes we get into the cycle of doing isolation movements cause they're easier to do.  stick w more presses.

Painlayer69

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2008, 10:13:56 PM »
Well if i were to train each bodypart twice per week, to bring everything up alot better, What would be a good split for that type of training ??
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triple_pickle

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Re: More or less than this for shoulders.
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2008, 08:50:16 PM »
Well if i were to train each bodypart twice per week, to bring everything up alot better, What would be a good split for that type of training ??

if you are a natural, do each body part once a week, perhaps except abs and calves, otherwise it is easy to over train. 

unless you do olympic weightlifting, where you would do five sets of squats at the end of each session three times a week....